Heaven

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   Cranfordjsposted 12 years ago

   Does it really matter if  heaven exist (for a religious fundamentalist)? Being that a Christian fundamentalist will die knowing  heaven is a 'fact', does the actual existence matter since the fundamentalist will never know that he or she was wrong?

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      AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      it would matter to them after they died and somehow still had consciousness...if I am understanding your question correctly

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         Cranfordjsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         In this scenario I'm implying that Heaven doesn't exist. Say we knew for a fact heaven didn't exist, but there were people (Christian fundamentalist) who didn't care and still believed. Would it be comparable to say that they do go to Heaven, even if it isn't tangible, since they will never know.

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            mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            The future is as intangible as that of air. We can wave our arms in it, but we cannot slap it. Heaven is an unknown future and is an illusion of desire. To accept the not knowing of it, is to move ahead. Now will always be constant and we will always be in it. That is a fact, though the words used may change.

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            Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Your scenario is rather moot, since Christians know there IS a "heaven" which God has promised to all those who keep striving for the mark of Salvation.

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               mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               The path is a solitary one, no matter which path is chosen. Heaven is a path, but it is a path we must travel alone.

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  In human terms, yes, we must travel it alone.
                  But indeed the Believer has Jesus walking with them, so we are not truly alone.  Even on Judgement Day, Jesus will be our Advocate, if we're judged.  And we are/will be judged according to Jesus's righteousness, not by our own.

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                     mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Right now we are walking together, for time knows not individuals. In time we are all the same and we are naked to the truth of it.

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               AntonOfTheNorthposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I offer a correction.  They 'believe' there is a heaven, or at best they believe that they know that there is a heaven.
               
               Knowledge is attached to experience.  They don't know heaven unless they have experienced it. 
               
               This is not to devalue their belief.  It just isn't the same thing.
               
               cheers

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            Seek-n-Findposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I don't think the question is coherently logical.  If you are asking based on the presupposition that heaven does not exist, then how could something that did not exist matter in one's afterlife if there was no afterlife?  It would matter during the here and how for how they live their life based on their beliefs and it would matter in the afterlife only if there was an afterlife. Can you clarify at another level deeper what it is you are trying to find out about?  Thanks!

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               mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               If one can be certain that they do not know, heaven is but one of many possibilities.

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                  Cranfordjsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  @seek n find -
                  
                  My forum question isn't intended to mock any religion. Wit that said, I wonder if Christians (or any religious fundamentalist) are in a win win situation. They go to heaven if it's real. If it isn't they won't know the difference. So is it a win win, regardless?

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                     mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Who really knows but the dead?

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                     Seek-n-Findposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     I didn't think you were mocking--I just didn't understand the question fully.  I think it is a win-win no matter how you look at it.  This is why:
                     
                     1)  If God is real and heaven exists--the one who believes in the Truth of these matters will be in heaven after they die and know God forever.
                     
                     2)  If God is real and heaven exists--the one who believes in the Truth of these matters ALSO get to experience a version of heaven in the here and now and can know God here and now.  The Lord's Prayer "...thy kingdom COME, thy will be done, on EARTH as it is in heaven..."
                     
                     3)  If it's possible that God and heaven are not real, it is still possible that it is.  It cannot be proven that God and heaven do not exist so the possibility will always be there.
                     
                     4)  At the very least, if somehow it could be proven that God and heaven were not real, then I guess to believe in God would still not be a bad thing because they would be attempting to be creatures of love and to live by a set of moral laws that are more beneficial than living selfishly and by no standard of right/wrong. 
                     
                     Does that make sense?
                     
                     Thanks!

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                        Cranfordjsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Yea I have tried the same idea but in different questions. It has taken me a few attempts to get it down to where I want it. With that said, my latest version of it, that I sent  in the previous comment, makes it clearer.
                        
                        1) Even if god is real, which one? Remember, 70% of the planet doesn't fall under Christianity.  (unless it's a Deist God who will cover everyone)
                        
                        2) I agree but then again it isn't a 50/50. The idea of God, or no God seems narrow, but it's actually very broad. Being that there are many different religions once you step on the 'God' side of the fence.
                        
                        3) Your number three point can also be an argument for the secular side. Since we can't know God, and heaven exist, it seems like a tedious task of choosing a religion. It's almost like playing the lottery. (this brings me back to my number " 2)" point)
                        
                        4) I don't agree because there are other philosophies that incorporate the same values. (I.E. I'm a Secular humanist).
                        
                        Your comments make sense, also.

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                        A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        No, you used fallacies in your examples hence they are not valid.

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      Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No, just the fantasy is enough.  The believer's final thought is that he is about to meet God.  At the point that he could actually learn once and for all that he's wasted the better part of his life chasing an imaginary prize, he ceases to exist.
      
      When I'm bored I visit a local hospice and entertain the patients with my views on the matter.

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         mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         86
         Ron Montgomery9,944 postsJoined: 2 years agoHubs: 21Followers: 269
         Posted 1 minute ago
         No, just the fantasy is enough.  The believer's final thought is that he is about to meet God.  At the point that he could actually learn once and for all that he's wasted the better part of his life chasing an imaginary prize, he ceases to exist
         
         Ego ceases to control the illusion.

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         Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Good grief.
         You visit a local hospice and...?
         That's a horrid thing to say, Ron.
         ...Seems to me there was someone else around here who said such a thing, a while back....but whatever.  It's an awful thing to say.  Have you ever even known anyone personally who was in hospice care?

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            Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, quite a few people.  The patients are pounced on by religious types trying to score some last minute conversions and pick over the financial remains.  I save them from these vagabonds free of charge.

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            mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yes and they still like entertainment and company. They know what it's like to live in the now, for their time is short.

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      AEvansposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Heaven does exist for me. Been through that experience when I was young and nobody can convince me that there isn't a heaven at all.

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   paarsurreyposted 12 years ago

   Heaven is the reward to be  given to the ones who accomplished the purpose of life; being in the image of the Creator God  in attributes that could be acquired by a human being.

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   Millerclposted 12 years ago

   Are you suggesting that heaven is an actually place right now? Like say the Bahamas?
   
   I feel it is true, as a Christian, Heaven is being in the presence of the Lord free of sin and such. There will be a new heavens and a new earth after all is said and done, but it isn't what we have now and it doesn't exist yet.
   
   Or are you getting at some, "Look how silly Christians are for believing in some place that doesn't exist and how far will they go to justify it."

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      mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No. I'm simply pointing out that it doesn't matter "now". What I believe is secondary and is part of the "I" illusion.

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         Millerclposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         That was not directed towards you.

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            Cranfordjsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            @millercl-
            
            My forum question isn't intended to mock any religion. I wonder if Christians (or any religious fundamentalist) are in a win win situation. They go to heaven if it's real. If it isn't they won't know the difference. So is it a win win, regardless?

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      Michele Travisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      However what you have said it true.  No matter who it is directed to.  It is even in the bible.  I appreciate what you write.

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   Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago

   If it was fully understood what heaven is really like, you would understand why everything was created.

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      mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      And we would understand why we would never want to stay there. The illusion is that "I" thinks it is something it needs.

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         Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         That's right. All illusions aside, yes, mom and dad are on the otherside, but don't have human responses or human images. Imagine a yogurt culture. Heaven is like an eternity of yogurt.

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            mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Now were getting closer to the illusion of it. Preconcieved ideas are not the future, they are the past and they only affect the now.

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               Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I was being facetious. Being everywhere all at once does get old after the first billion or so years go by...of course, you don't notice the passing of time...you exist beyond it.

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                  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  For time is but the illusion that what we do matters. If I am worried about making a mark on the world, all of the words I spoke would be meaningless.

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   amilypittposted 12 years ago

   Heaven is a matter of belief. No one can see the future but if you believe that there exist any heaven kind of thing then they should do the good thing to go in heaven and it will bring peace in this world and in people also and hence they got the haven like place right here.

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