The Return of Jesus Christ in the Air (2nd Coming)
I have started this thread specifically for CJ Sledgehammer, SwordofManticore, Lybrah, Disappearinghead, and anyone else who can respectfully examine the scriptures in the light of this day and have a Godly discussion with one another to help us understand the views of each other. God bless you and I will write in here when I can.
Thanks for starting the thread. Is it mentioned anywhere in the bible that there will be a rapture event? Or will we all have to bear the seven year tribulation period? I'd like to know more on this subject.
Lybrah, I've summarized my study on Revelation in 12 hubs. The links to the various hubs can be found from the two hubs "Summary Chart of Revelation's Major Events" and "How to Study Revelation and Why", or else at the link at the bottom of the two hubs under "See more of my studies on Revelation" to see the full list of hubs. You will see why and where I conclude the event of Christ's harvesting of the earth--when the saints/righteous dead and then living are 'caught up' (or raptured)--falls in the order of end-time events. Hope you find it a bit helpful! (It sure clarified things for me
.)Throughout the Bible is us we have to survive the tribulation period including the virgin birth prophecy (Isaiah 7:14-22), 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Revelation 16:15-16 are three quick references to our going through the Tribulation. Armageddon is the safe place for the survivors.
This really deserves a hub, but for a quick answer, the rapture is described here:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
The fact we should be looking for it is described here:
1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"
And another of several portions explaining believers will be spared the tribulation is here:
Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."Lybrah,
The Lord Jesus makes reference to this in many places but I'll just list a few to answer your question that you posted somewhere about it.
LUKE 17:33
» 33 † Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
LUKE 17:34
» 34 † I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (I can assure you that this is not referring to a homosexual lifestyle but to identify that this is a universal event. It is night on one side of the earth <those in bed> and daylight on the other side of the earth<those grinding and in the field[/b>)
LUKE 17:35
» 35 † Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
LUKE 17:36
» 36 † Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
LUKE 17:37
» 37 † And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. ([b]In other words, where the Word is being revealed thats where the true believers will gather. My sheep know My Voice and a stranger they will not follow)
MATTHEW 24:32
» 32 † ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: ( The fig tree is Israel that was destroyed and dispersed as was prophesied in Hosea 6<After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. and HOSEA 3:4
» 4 † For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
HOSEA 3:5
» 5 † Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.> In the midst of the 3rd day, or three thousand years since that prophecy, Israel would become a nation again and God would begin to deal with them again as He began to deal with the Gentiles while still dealing with Israel until AD70. So is it today when God's wrath is fixing to fall on these Gentile kingdoms. He has begun to deal with Israel while still dealing with the Gentiles but her days are numbered just like Israel's were.)
MATTHEW 24:33
» 33 † So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
MATTHEW 24:34
» 34 † Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
MATTHEW 24:35
» 35 † Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
MATTHEW 24:36
» 36 † But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
MATTHEW 24:37
» 37 † But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
MATTHEW 24:38
» 38 † For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
MATTHEW 24:39
» 39 † And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
MATTHEW 24:40
» 40 † Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
MATTHEW 24:41
» 41 † Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
MATTHEW 24:42
» 42 † Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
MATTHEW 24:43
» 43 † But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
MATTHEW 24:44
» 44 † Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
MATTHEW 24:45
» 45 † Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
MATTHEW 24:46
» 46 † Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
MATTHEW 24:47
» 47 † Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
MATTHEW 24:48
» 48 † But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
MATTHEW 24:49
» 49 † And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
MATTHEW 24:50
» 50 † The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
MATTHEW 24:51
» 51 † And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.(The Great Tribulation which will be a world wide event, not just in Jerusalem)
MATTHEW 25:1
» 1 † ¶ Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
MATTHEW 25:2
» 2 † And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. (Five wise had the Holy Ghost represented by the oil in their vessels, and the five foolish were those who didn't believe in any Holy Ghost or was told they didn't need it.)
MATTHEW 25:3
» 3 † They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
MATTHEW 25:4
» 4 † But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
MATTHEW 25:5
» 5 † While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
MATTHEW 25:6
» 6 † And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
MATTHEW 25:7
» 7 † Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
MATTHEW 25:8
» 8 † And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
MATTHEW 25:9
» 9 † But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
MATTHEW 25:10
» 10 † And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
MATTHEW 25:11
» 11 † Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
MATTHEW 25:12
» 12 † But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
MATTHEW 25:13
» 13 † Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Jesus' coming in the air is definitely not the second coming. The following are some of my reasons.
In Genesis 49:1 & 8-12 we find the prophetic description of the end time praised nation, Judah. It's a nation its leader's ethnic group's {brethren} praise, it uses economic sanctions {hand in the neck} against its enemies and man of most nations {father's children} bow to it. It's a young nation and offspring {lion's whelp} of a previously praised nation {Great Britain} acting as a nation of antiquity. Because of her nuclear weapons on ICBM (Zech. 5:1-4) no nation will arouse it to anger. It makes the laws {sceptre} for other nations while walking on them {lawgiver between his feet} until Shiloh {the second son of man or messiah} comes. That description fits only the United States of America, and makes Micah 5:2 to also be, especially since Bethlehem means house of plenty bread and Ephratah means plentiful with the USA being called the bread basket of the world and land of plenty.
Exodus 4:6-8 has a first white and a latter sign of color is a very clear one.
Isaiah 11:1-12 has a rod from the stem and a branch from the root messiah with the root coming about the time Israel became a nation the second time per verses 19-12.
The stone Moses was told to smite (Exo. 17:1-6) and the one he was told to speak to but smote twice (Num. 20:1-11) represent 2 different messiahs. Then, with those 2 stones as prophetic types of messiahs, Daniel 2:43-44's rock cut out of the mountain without hands {not taught by man} which falls on the feet of Nebuchadnezzar's dreamed image's feet of the seed of man {man of most ethnics} would be the the second messiah. That makes the 2 feet of iron and clay to representing the 2 pillars {good and evil} of the temple {civilization} Samson destroyed (Judges 16:25-30) and both the rock and Samson types of the second messiah.
And there's many more.Sorry about the typo, Bethlehem means house of bread.
Wow, guys I'm sorry that I haven't expounded a little in here myself. You all are all over this forum. I spent all day yesterday working hard on a blog only to have it accepted and then rejected this morning. It was on another site but I was very unhappy to say the least. What's worse is that it was deleted...
I promise that I will post a few facts that reveal the Truth of this discussion by this evening. God bless you all!That sounds like one of the forums I post on, I used to get deleted there all the times until I figured out how to get around them. It wouldn't be HP would it.
No its more like IB... Thanks for the encouragement though. I will try again when I get time. Blessings
David
The Coming of the Lord pt 1
I agree that this subject requires more than a typical forum post; in actuality it requires many books to say the least. However, with simple faith and revelation I believe it only requires the Bible to gain insight to these mystery truths.
Well, to start with I suppose I’ll upset the apple cart by stating the Truth. There is only ONE God, The Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, Emmanuel, Prince of Peace, Son of God, Everlasting Father, Rose of Sharon, Lily of the Valley, Bright and Morning Star, Holy Ghost, the I AM, and many other titles are attributed to Him. Until we understand who God is and who we are, that are called and chosen and elect, we’ll never be able to come to the knowledge of the Truth. We can study it intellectually like the Pharisee and Sadducee and thousands of teachers and preachers today claiming to have Truth but we’ll only wind ourselves farther away from Him (been there, done that). No, there is not three beings (trinity) making up one God nor is there one human being (oneness) called Jesus Christ that is the only manifestation of God. God is an Eternal Spirit that is manifested in three offices or dispensations. Yet, He is only One Being. He condescended to re-gain fellowship with His offspring or Seed after the fall (yes He knew the fall would happen). I will leave it at that or I’ll use this whole post up on that one subject. Suffice it to say that Lord Jesus Christ is His name and there is no other name whereby we can be saved.
Anyone considered this statement along with the end coming in AD 70?
MATTHEW 24:14
» 14 † And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (The Gospel was scarcely made known in the rest of the world by AD 70)
Whether you want to believe the book of Revelation was scribed in A.D. 95-96 or A.D. 66 it really makes no difference. However, I happen to know that it was in A.D. 95 through 96 but I’ll leave it. The book is prophetic. Verse 3 states it was a prophecy. It was the revelation of Jesus Christ in future ages. Not just a span of less than 10 years as some of you in here purport. I respect your views but I just want to set the record straight with a few scriptures.
II PETER 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(Notice it said THE EARTH, not just Jerusalem shall be burned up. Also, the heavens didn’t pass away or melt with fervent heat….if they did God created them again because I still see them)
II PETER 3:11 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
II PETER 3:12
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(Yes, it does say that the heavens will be on fire and dissolved)
II PETER 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(If this is the new heavens and the new earth we’re missing the righteousness. It doesn’t mean just righteous people because we’ve had that ever since Adam and Eve. And no one need convince me that they do not make mistakes and have to repent…No, Peter is saying there will be no more sin existing in this realm.)
II PETER 3:3
» 3 † ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
II PETER 3:4
» 4 † And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (The fathers would refer to those who first began to preach of His return. In this verse he is clearly saying that all of the early church will be called the fathers and will no longer be the children. As Malachi speaks of a dual coming of Elijah, first to turn the hearts of the fathers keeping the levitical law to that of the Gospel Children, and then secondly turning the hearts of the last day children back to those of the apostolic fathers. It’s too simple to miss.)
II PETER 3:5
» 5 † For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
II PETER 3:6
» 6 † Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
II PETER 3:7
» 7 † But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (How can you attribute this to some historian’s account of AD 70? He is clearly not talking about some firey display in the heavens. He is speaking of a total purging of the entire heavens and earth. That will burn all uncleanliness out and set the stage for Christ’s honeymoon with His Bride and all those elect from every age.)
II PETER 3:8
» 8 † ¶ But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (Consider this deeply also.)
II PETER 3:9
» 9 † ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
You cannot make the “end” a past event for many reasons. Here are just a few that I have not noticed being posted. I’ll start with a little example in the first chapter of Revelation.
REVELATION 1:10
10 “ I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,”
This whole vision was given on the Lord’s day, not Saturday or Sunday, but the Lord’s day. This is the day of man, the Lord’s day is coming. John was transported in the Spirit to the Lord’s day and then he heard a Great Voice from BEHIND him. Being turned he saw the seven churches with the seven messengers being represented by the menorah (KJV says candlestick but in Zechariah it says lampstand). Notice that the churches were behind him and Christ in the midst. Why? Because John experienced this vision on the Lord’s day after all the church ages and man’s ages were behind him. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches was not a message to 7 churches that existed at that time alone, but to 7 oncoming Gentile church ages that would bear the same spirit in them that would correspond to the spirits that existed in the churches in Asia at that time. If you are learned in history, then see what the Laodicean church spirit was and compare it to the spirit of the churches in this day. Notice, immediately after the ages at the beginning of chapter 4, John is told to “come up”. This is another obvious foreshadow of what takes place at the end of the Gentile dispensation.
The name Laodicea means “people’s rights”. It was politically important and financially flourished in Asia Minor. Zeus was the pagan god worshipped there and it was once called Diopolis, city of Zeus, in honor of him. It was called “Metropolis” because it was a county seat for 25 other cities. It was a city rich and increased in goods, lots of culture, with science and medical fields abounding. The worship was beautiful. It was a city of earthquakes which finally destroyed it.
So much of that age types the spiritual condition of our so-called Christian churches today. Beautiful worship but formal and ice cold. It is intellectual and dead. Zeus was the father of the gods and it is like the dominating idea in this age of a one world religion. They are trying to unite all the religions of the world under a united religious premise that we’re all striving for the same thing. All Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. are all good and basically seeking the same things. It’s called the World Council of Churches and it’s the image made unto the beast. Never mind. I’ll never get to my scriptures.
More next time….Are you aware that Emmanuel's original definition was in man is god and was changed by, who I suppose, wanted to keep people for looking inside of themselves for their answers? When Jesus was on the cross and cried my god, my god, why have you forsaken me was because he saw his lifeforce leaving his body shows is proof of that's what the word means instead of god with us. Just something I think you should know since you used the word.
I agree that the time is at hand didn't mean everything would immediately come about but that the start of it was soon. However, what's written in II Peter 3:10 I don't believe will happen at this end of the world, although it could, because I believe that is about complete eliminating of all of existence like the Phoenix who burns itself up and is reborn our of it's ashes, but that goes somewhere else so I'll leave it.
As for the letters to the 7 churches, they represent the stages the organized churches would digress to and the end would come when it reached the condition of the city of Laodicea. .
"The Return of Jesus Christ in the Air (2nd Coming)"
Don't worry, soon it will be in the water.Los Angeles will but not the Bride of Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 "But I would not have YOU to be ignorant, that YE (YOU) sorrow not, For if WE believe,. For this WE say unto... Then WE which are …. and so shall WE ever be with the Lord.
The fact WE should be looking for it is described here:
YE have no need. For yourselves know perfectly. But YE, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake YOU as a thief. YE are all the children of light, Therefore let US not sleep, as do others; but let US watch and be sober. But let US, For God hath not appointed us
I need some help here trying to understand who exactly are these people are that are being spoken to in these verses that are being quoted here. And how we reconcile your answer.
I interpret this to be that he is talking to the people he is talking to.
Is that too much of an interpretation to withstand scrutinyNone of the biblical scriptures were spoken to anyone except the people of that time but, having been written, they didn't fulfill themselves so they became a prophetic message for a later time.
If you are talking about the second coming, we are still waiting with the same expectation. The day and the hour are unknown and will only be fulfilled on the last day of history as we know it.
Get ready!I'm ready, I've eaten learned the laws of]{ butter {civilization} and honey {self-reproducing environment} so I can be among those who are left upon the land per Isaiah 7:14-22.
There will be a new heaven and a new earth.
Which is nothing more than this sky and earth having been purified of the works of man so there is nothing to cause those to enter the spiritual civilization (Revelation 21) from remembering this material one. The same thing is what the earth was without form and void found in Genesis 1, no form and void of anything of the previous civilization.
I agree with Ya that None of the biblical scriptures were spoken to anyone except the people of that time.
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"they didn't fulfill themselves so they became a prophetic message for a later time."
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me
How do we know that these things didn't happen when Jesus said that they would.
Maybe we are not interpreting those prophesy correctly?
Maybe we are doing the same thing that those Hebrews did in the first century, in Not recognizing fulfillment of prophesy.
"IF" they didn't happen as Jesus said they would, this means Jesus was wrong or he lying? I don’t think so! I would rather think that WE are mistaken! There are hundreds of indications that everything happened exactly the way they were prophesied. The only reason that we can’t see this more clearly is that this misinterpretation has been promoted for the past 1700 years and we have been programmed in such a way as to preconceive the meanings of scripture before we read them.
When we are obsessed in finding the “Hidden” message, we don’t see that which is staring us in the face.Jesus didn't give us but one prophetic time to be fulfilled before this time, the first part of the parable of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34). The Parable was a combination of his entering Jerusalem during Passover week prior to his discarnation where he cursed the fig tree in the morning which was dead by evening and his telling the weeping girls to weep for their children and their children's children then about 40 years later Jerusalem was destroyed and the people scattered. The budding happened in 1948 when Israel became a nation again and Psalm 90:10 say a maximum of 80 years will not pass before all prophecies are fulfilled.
This whole thing is far too complicated to pin an answer on any one single verse.
If we can start with one single consept and add to it verse after verse and NOT come across discrepency after discrepency, we might be onto something.
"IF" we honestly consider that Jesus meant what he said in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, as having happened in the 1st century, this puts everything in a different light.
Rev 5 .... Who is worthy to to open the scroll ? John wept because Nobody in heaver or earth or under the earth or sea was worthy! Where is Jesus? What does this mean? Was Jesus in rout between heaven and earth?
Immediately upon his arival in heaven, Jesus begins opening the seven seals.
I think that the 7th seal was opened when THAT Hebrew Nation came to their end of days in 138 AD, when the 14th emperor of the 4th kingdom (Little Horn) came to his end.(Daniel 11: 44)
By this time everything Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 had all come to pass.Rev. 5:5 is about the second son of man like In Genesis 49:1 & 8-12. Verse 1 tells us what will happen during the last days. 8-12 we find the prophetic description of the end time praised nation, Judah, where the second messiah will come from. Judah's leader's ethnic group {brethren} will praise it, it uses economic sanctions {hand in the neck} against its enemies and most other people {father's children} bow to it. It's a young nation and offspring {lion's whelp} of a previously praised nation {Great Britain} acting as a nation of antiquity. Because of her nuclear weapons on ICBMs (Zech. 5:1-4) no nation will arouse it to anger. It makes the laws {sceptre} for other nations while walking on them {lawgiver between his feet} until Shiloh {the second son of man} comes. Only the USA qualify for being that nation, which makes Micah 5:2 also be about it since it's called the world's bread basket and land of plenty because Bethlehem means {house of bread} and Ephratah {plentiful}. Therefore, the Lord, whom [we] seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in[i/] is somebody born in the US around 1948 as the [i]branch from the root of Jesse since Jesus was the rod from his stem.
I think that we need to try to understand what it would mean .... if we understood scripture as written before we inflict our interpretations upon them.
I would suggest If it were possible, to forget everything that you have been taught concerning Jesus.
Then read the scriptures skipping everything except for the words written in red.
Then you will see that most of what we believe Jesus would do doesn't come from his mouth.
You will see how much has been added to his message.
Most of that which we "Believe" Jesus said ... he didn't say.I did that so long ago I had almost forgotten about doing it, more than 36 years ago. As a matter of fact, I read the bible as a totally unknown to me book between 1973 & 76, made notes concerning contradictions in it then sought to understand what the book was saying. For a long while I gave little credit to Paul's writings and focused on the gospels, the disciples epistles and Revelation.
What I found it is about a cycle and is an intellectual puzzle, first one must understand the metaphors, allegories parables and symbols/types, then see how they fit together to paint a continuum of the cycle it presents.
I've done that, so what's next?Lets back up a little from what you have described.
The words in red is my foundation. For the time being; forget all of what Paul teaches. in fact forget everything that you think any of the desciples said because they are just the students of Christ.
I would suggest after the words in red are understood ... then read the book of Daniel. Read only those parts where Gabriel interprets Daniels visions.
I would believe those things that the angel of God said before I would let one of Jesus's students establish my thought pattern.
After I did this ..... I understood those things that the desciples and Paul said in an entirely different light.
Sorry about intermitten posts. I'm cooking outside on the smoker.Since Jesus didn't write anything himself so I find it very difficult to follow the Red Writings and ignore those who walked with him. Only John's gospel is written by someone who is known to have followed him. Sorry, I can't ignore those who walked with him, however, it's easy to ignore Paul's except some things consistent with OT prophecy that I often use.
Since Jesus didn't write anything himself so I find it very difficult to follow the Red Writings and ignore those who walked with him.
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ME
Should Those people which wrote these Quotes in red be considered as more trustworthy than those words which they say came out of the mouth of Jesus?
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Only John's gospel is written by someone who is known to have followed him. Sorry, I can't ignore those who walked with him, however, it's easy to ignore Paul's except some things consistent with OT prophecy that I often use.
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I didn't say to ignore them. I said that if I believe Jesus ... I should believe FIRST these things which he is reported to have said. Secondly believe those things Gabriel is said to have said and third ..understand those things which the desiples and Paul is said to have said in such a way as they DO NOT contradict Jesus or Gabriel.Since you know, however, that the new testament was altered, changed, misquoted, etc for several hundred years after Jesus supposedly lived, how can you take his "quotes" to be correct? How do you know what he said at all?
My opinion is that if I can't believe the words written in red .... Well .... why should I believe any of it. After all, If we profess to be a follower of Christ you would think that believing these words in red would be the foundation of our faith and not the words said to have been written by ANY student of his.
If we don't believe what Jesus said then we are not following him. The rest would then be mute.but we have concrete examples of things that we know jesus supposedly said that were added several hundred years later. My favorite example is the story in John of the woman caught in the act of adultery. Jesus says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" It's a beautiful story, and even I am moved by it. But it's not in any of the earliest manuscripts that we have. It appeared a couple hundred years later as it was added into the story by scribes who thought it should be included for whatever reason. I'm pretty sure that most bibles even say in parenthesis that "this is a later addition".
If you're reading the words in read, then that story is included. But we know it to be a later addition - and that fact is accepted by almost all biblical scholars and historians alike. Since that is practically irrefutable, how do you accept everything else?
On top of that, the gospels don't actually agree on what jesus said, and he often says mutually exclusive things and makes very differing claims or denials. According to the gospels alone, should they stand on their own, there is no way to get a clear picture of jesus. It's all biased, based on the individual writers and what they hoped to accomplish.First and foremost ... I have faith that many things which I have experienced throughout life are proofs to me that another dimension of reality does exist.
There is nothing in those words written in red that contradicts these personal beliefs and experiences which I have had. If anything; they add to them/it.
Whether or not the story about the woman caught in adultery was authentic does not alter the other truths which are contained within scripture.
"IF" I were inspired by God to write a book of truths and someone a couple hundred years later added something that is untrue to my book; would that mean that I am a liar?yes, and there's a reason that almost all, to a fraction of a percentage, that everyone that has a near-death experience envisions something in line with their pre-existing religious ideology. There's a mental bias, and since the mind is what causes near-death experience phenomenon, it makes sense. for example, if a protestant minister was to have a near-death experience, he would most likely see something in line with christian theology. If a muslim had the same experience, they would most likely see allah. There is NO account of a near-death experience where a christian experiences a hindu god, or the muslim god, etc. Why do you think that is?
Since the gospels were not written by the people who's names are attached to them, there's no way to know who wrote them - or why they wrote them the way that they did. Historically speaking, there is nothing to corroborate them. Therefore the gospels are the only thing we have to go on, and if they can't even agree with each other on very specific events (like the birth of jesus - they don't agree on where, or when or even how) or his death (they have him dying on two different days that are mutually exclusive) and the resurrection accounts are impossible to reconcile to each other, I maintain that if you look at them objectively and without personal bias, you'll see that they cannot be reliable and there's no way to tell whether or not any of the words attributed to jesus were actually his words at all. You have verbal stories passed down for at least 40 years, and we know what happens to stories as they're continually shared, told and passed on.
IF you wrote a book that was then added to, subtracted from or altered in many other ways generations after your death, that doesn't necessarily mean that you lied - but here's the problem. If you didn't even feel confident enough to put YOUR name on it, and ascribed it to someone else entirely, why should we take any of it as real?SO You are saying that if I wrote a book of triyjd and that later someone else put their name on it , the truth therein is no longer true?
AND as far as my experiences are concerned .. A N.D.E. has nothing to do with them.I'm assuming that you recognize that the personal experiences you attribute to god are neither demonstrable, verifiable or able to be duplicated. I don't doubt you - but they can do nothing to prove or disprove anything to anyone else.
Not necessarily. But we do have an entire several-hundred year history of early church fathers changing the text at will, destroying texts that don't line up with their own doctrines and squishing every group that they themselves deem to be heretical. the New testament cannon was compiled for purely political reasons - not under orders from constantine, but because a rival doctrine had started compiling "scriptures" and the cannon of the NT as we know it was created as a response.
What I'm saying is that there's no way to tell what Jesus actually said - if he actually said anything at all. the unfortunate reality is that there's no way to prove whether or not the person of jesus ever existed at all.
What truths in the New Testament do you claim to be true - and how are they verifiable?Don't get me started on the behavior of the church actavities during the first 1000 years of its existence. I can agree with most of what you mentioned above and more.
And I agree that the canon was a compromise of Christianity and paganism.
As was predicted in Revelation.
I'm just saying that you can paint the truth any color and underneath the paint the truth will remain the truth.I guess my underlying question is: How do you know what the truth is when you know that how it was preserved is suspect at best - and downright forging and lying at worst? how do you KNOW what's true, when everything around the early church is on extremely shaky ground?
I'm not trying to be rude, honestly, and you hope that you don't take it that way. You view the cannon and the early church history the same way I do - I just took it a step further in my skepticism than you did. If i was questioning certain aspects and knew tampering was rampant, what was left? So I ended up throwing the whole thing out. I guess what I'm saying is that there's no way to KNOW for certain what's actually true.
Jearmi
I didn't say to ignore them. I said that if I believe Jesus ... I should believe FIRST these things which he is reported to have said. Secondly believe those things Gabriel is said to have said and third ..understand those things which the desiples and Paul is said to have said in such a way as they DO NOT contradict Jesus or Gabriel.
=======================================================
Me
I don't get that understanding from your post but the way I see it, the teachings of Jesus are even with the prophets and what is said to be from Gabriel. If any writings contradicts theirs they I have to be cautious concerning what they say. Therefore, we are in agreement here.I don't get that understanding from your post but the way I see it, the teachings of Jesus are even with the prophets and what is said to be from Gabriel. If any writings contradicts theirs they I have to be cautious concerning what they say. Therefore, we are in agreement here.
I would hold the message written in red letters first priority even with those said to be from Gabriel first, and those from the OT prophets third.
I think we do agree.
When we do this we have to rethink the way that Paul's teachings are understood and taught by organized religion.
Jerami,
When we do this we have to rethink the way that Paul's teachings are understood and taught by organized religion.
=================================
Me,
Jesus said {the spiritually enlightened} must forsake all earthly attachments including family to enter everlasting life and Paul said any man forsaking their household is worst than an infidel, on the surface Paul contradicted Jesus. That is a major reason to be cautious concerning Paul's writings.
Jerami,
I have a post coming later this evening to begin to explain what the Lord has allowed me to see but I just had to ask you this question. Do you read ALL scripture this way? If the Word had used "they" instead of "you" would that make it more personal and not referring to only those who lived at the time it was written? The Word is for every believer in every age, until the consummation. Yes, It has to be properly placed and discerned and has much that has been fulfilled, but the promises to the Holy Ghost filled believer are the same yesterday, today, and forever. If the consummation is past then Daniel was a false prophet because his seventy weeks would have ran out around 40 years BEFORE many of you are claiming Christ has already returned. People do not understand the Gentile dispensation which has signs displaying, not a determined number of weeks, when it is going to be finished. The weeks were determined on Daniel's (Thy people) people(Jews) and on the holy city(Jerusalem). There is still one week determined for them. Christ comes 3 times. First to redeem His Bride, next to receive His Bride, and next With His Bride. When you see the fig tree (Israel) putting forth her buds...as prophesied in Hosea 6:1-2 and many other places, then you know the time is drawing nigh. As it was in the days of Noah, as it was in the days of Sodom, as it was in the days of Lot, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man. Too much to try and write here.
All we reap from a intellectual study is an intellectual life. What's worse is that the Lord Jesus and Saint Paul both mentioned the Rain falling on the just and the unjust. So now, we have signs and wonders accompanying a purely evil lifestyle, yet with the genuine Holy Spirit anointing. Jesus said, MANY will come to me in that day and will say, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew (had a spiritual relationship with) you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The Lord also mentioned false Christs (anointed ones) and said there would arise many deceiving and being deceived. There was a sign of earthquakes in diverse places, wars and rumors of wars, and on and on.
Sorry, I didn't intend to get started here. I need to get back to my planned post. God bless you. I am with you on the churches of the day and the great deceptions that come with them. The Lord Jesus Christ is a Being that lives in His people and your walk is between you and Him, not you and the church. When He is in you, then you are the church. You can't join Christ, you have to be born into Him. Without the Holy Ghost indwelling you will be deceived, regardless of the name of your church, the works you've done, the faith to perform miracles, or the great mysteries that you know. Without Him we are nothing PERIOD. When He comes, He is coming to receive those who have the token (Life of Christ indwelling) displayed, like those in Egypt had blood on the door.
I didn't matter whether they were circumcised or a Levite or a prophet, without the blood on the door God would smite them. Same thing applies today. I've got to quit...Concerning the 62 weeks in Daniel 9.
The first verse (9:1) identifies the year as 538 BC that Gabriel says ... after 62 weeks they will kill the Messiah. If Jesus Christ was the Messiah, approx 568 years later they did kill him as Gabriel said they would. This would indicate that 62 weeks as Gabriel understands "time" would be 568 years as we understand time. This would mean that one week in Gabriels understanding is the same as approx 9.16 years as we understand time.
Forty two months is 180 weeks. 180 weeks X 9.16 would be approx 1649 of our years.
That makes more sense to me than 42 months that the beast is given to blaspheme being 3 1/2 of our years. 3 1/2 years for the 7 seal judgments, and the 7 trumpet judgments and the 7 bowl judgments to ALL happen within such a short period of time WELL ? there isn't any time for anyone to repent between these events.
Jerami,
He was talking to them of course, but Paul was also talking to the all true believers. How could we only attribute this to the Thessalonians and leave out the Galatians, the believers in Rome, in Corinth, in Israel, etc. Likewise, he was talking to all believers of every age until this great event takes place. The scriptures are the Holy Ghost speaking to His people. God's promises to the believers in the book of Psalms, or in Isaiah, are just as real to me as it was to those who believed in that day.My opinions are just that; My opinions. You are correct that the general message as taught was for all people. It is the prophesy of events to come which I believe are set in “A” specific timeline. It is the 70 weeks as described in Daniel 9 which lie at the center of my argument. The first 62 weeks are said to have been fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross. I can not believe that the last eight weeks have been magically suspended in time for almost 2000 years. If 62 weeks were completed in 30 AD, the 69th week would have come around 96 AD at the time that John received the Revelation. The 70th week would have been completed around 103 AD; just 30 years before the LAST Jewish revolt which brought about the end of days for that Hebrew Nation.
The fourth kingdom as described in Daniel, having ten horns (kings) and a little horn (another king) rising up after the ten replacing three, was speaking of the Roman Empire. And the little Horn replacing three kings after the first ten was Hadrian. Hadrian was the last king to be given dominion over that Hebrew Nation. All of the difficulties described with the opening of the seven seals were inflicted upon “That” Hebrew Nation.
In 538 the sounding of the trumpets began, bringing about the fall of the Roman Empire. The bowl judgments began with the bubonic plague.
This isn’t the end of the story; But the beginning of another field of investigation, A new set of questions to answer. How do we make sense of all of this? I think that we have to come full circle in our understanding.
As I said above, these are just my opinions as to what I believe is written in scripture when we "interpret" as little as is possible
Matthew has nothing to do with the second coming, you need to read the Old Testament, like I posted in the sixth post, and see what it say about the second messiah's advent. The OT predicts 2 messiahs, not just one.
I strongly suggest reading this book to all that are believers and no-believers "ck out this book by Lee Strobel who was a Yale Law graduate and journalism who went on a search to unmask Christ and find the real truth and ended up becoming a believer. It is called "The Case for Christ".
When Jesus spoke about the times of the end in Matt 23-24, he was talking about the end of Israel, and the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. He said that those times would be so terrible, the world would not see their like again. I invite every reader to look up some history of the siege of Jerusalem and they will see that everything did indeed come to pass. The WW2 holocaust pales in comparison. Competing Jewish factions murdered the civilians and forced others to fight their cause. There was cannibalism as food supplies were consumed. The Romans bored with the simple crucifying of those that tried to escape, tried to outdo each other by crucifying people in contorted shapes.
Jesus said the blood of the prophets would be visited on THAT generation. He said THAT generation would not pass till the events came true. Do you not believe him? Do you still look forward to a future great tribulation? Do you think the blood of the prophets will befall a future generation?
Both of Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians were written between AD50 and AD55. That is, at least 15 years before the end of (Israel's) days. So who was Paul talking to? You me, or the Church of that time? Paul expected the end to come soon, and it certainly did, 15 years later.
Between AD 70 and AD135, what remained of the Jewish people were ethnically cleansed from Palestine. There were persecuted throughout the Roman Empire. Hadrian finished off Israel as a nation by AD135.
"Denominations such as Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Lutheran Christians, and Reformed Christians believe in a rapture only in the sense of a general final resurrection, when Christ returns a single time. They do not believe that a group of people is left behind on earth for an extended Tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
Pre-tribulation rapture theology was developed in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
Does it really make sense to rigidly hold on to a doctrine that is less than 200 years old and unknown to Jesus and the Apostles? Does it make sense to claim a Revelation from the Holy Spirit about the Rapture?I agree completely .... you didn't mention the half of it.
Thanks Jerami. For many years I just glossed over the discrepancies between what Jesus said and what the Church said, preferring to go with Church doctrine on future rapture and tribulations. It was reading your hubs that got me to start thinking and looking again at what Jesus actually said.
I don't know why I did it ..but when I first started reading the bible, I started reading in Matthew ;; ONLY the words written in red. I did this a number of times thereby establishing a belief system founded upon the words written in red.
I never went along with what the church was telling me about what Jesus was saying.
It never did match up.
I will say though that church is a good thing. kinda like a dating service. Jerami let me introduce you to Jesus..... Then the dating service should say; now you two go and have a good relationship.
Matthew 24 is talking about both Israel of that day and the end of civilization called the world. The parable of the fig tree (24:32-34), for instance, is determined by his cursing the fig tree one morning on his way into Jerusalem during the Passover week he discarnated and it was withered that evening and his telling the seeping girls to weep for their children and their children's children and Jerusalem was destroyed and the people scattered about 40 years later. The budding of it was when Israel became a nation in 1948 and a generation's passing, 80 years max per Psalm 90:10, from then would be 2028 for the end of the world.
you should also read the book that debunked Strobel's "case for christ" - the case against the case for christ.
What about the case against the case against the case for Christ?
I do not know of any such book but one thing I do know and that is that Christ changed my life and what I know is good enough to die with and what about you?
I was just joking...I have also accepted Jesus into my heart.
there's actually an interesting hub (not mine) that contests the very groundwork of Strobel's supposed "case" http://randygodwin.hubpages.com/hub/Boo … t-11299258
For further reading that gets even more in-depth about the actual arguments themselves, there is plenty of material out there debunking the work from start to finish.
I get that it worked for you, and you accept it. But how many rebuttals did you read? Did you examine the evidence for yourself, or did the book just sink in and that was it? Have you looked at his "evidence" or listen to an atheist or member of another faith (none of which are included in his book, which seems intellectually dishonest at best)
The generation that shall not pass, our generation, shall pass come 2019.1
2020 VISION of the end of the world, as stated in (Mat 24:3) MUST happen before 2020
This is a mistranslation, as they ment to say end of the age, as in the age of christianity
Please help get this 2020 Vision out to the world = this end time generation is soon coming to pass
I have the most awesome news to get out to this world. News about how we can be assured of God’s return before the year 2020 starts? That’s right, I can explain and prove by logic and Scripture verses that the Bible assures us in that all who are born again, (Joh 3:3) are promised to “meet the Lord in the air” (I Thes 4:17), to remove His Saints in the (Tit 2:13) “blessed hope” at the end of the first Door= end of Age of Christianity.
Please search doorsChristmustpassthrough
Your Bro,
that_prophet joe
I love my Father
He teaches me all that I ask
I hope that I maybe able to shake up this world
I want to dissolve this evolution fairytale
I would like to know how these scientists explain
how does our moon remain in orbit
with the constant addition of space dust
we do not hear much about space not being empty
but it contains a stead stream of dust particals
messing up the trejectory of its orbit
PLEASE SEARCH WITH yolasite
free-energy
beliefstoliveby
aliensandghosts
decimationofthisevolutionfairytale
evolutiondebate
myiqchallengeActually the end that Jesus was talking about was the end of Israel by AD135. Everything Jesus prophesied between Matt 23-24 was fulfilled by the destruction of Israel between AD70 and AD135.
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