Famous Bastards

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   Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years ago

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard
   
   
   As a Bastard myself, I am always curious about other bastards or mutts, as I tend to think of myself. In history Bastards were considered to be a lesser person based on the relationship of the people that conceived the bastard. So I wanted to compile a list of famous bastards...
   
   I'll Start:
   
   Jesus Christ.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hello from one Hoosier to another!
      
      Seems to me the definition of "bastard" is someone who is born outside of marriage,  not conceived outside of marriage.
      Jesus was conceived outside of natural marriage, but born within the marriage of Mary and Joseph.
      And even if He weren't, He still had a Father---THE Father.
      
      The Bible does have compassion for fatherless children though!
      The Word says that part of pure religion is to help the fatherless, and there are numerous Scriptures about that.
      
      Interesting theories you have, after I got past the bold but erroneous labeling of Jesus as a bastard.
      
      And I think your theory about the importance of marriage in God's eyes will fall apart if you read the references OF the importance of marriage in the Bible, both Old Testament and New.

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      1. 73

         Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         
         
         No, it is a child whose Father is not legally married to it's Mother.
         
         
         
         That some other guy married his mother has nothing to do with the status of his mother and 'His' father not being married. Which makes him a bastard.
         
         
         
         Having a Father? All human beings have a father, propogation requires it.
         
         
         
         Bold, and very much true I'm afraid... Jesus was and is a bastard. The legal marriage of Jesus' parents never took place, therefore he is a bastard.
         
         
         
         I have read the Bibles, my theory holds. Legal marriage is about the human joining of assets, Holy Matrimony is the joining of souls by God with the bond of love. Holy Matrimony has nothing to do with legal marriage.

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      2. 77

         Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         I wasn't going to comment on this but this line was too fun to let go.  Technically a bastard is someone who is born to "unmarried parents." So, while Mary and Joseph were married, Joseph is NOT the father of Jesus according to the story.  So, whomever impregnated Mary, be it God or someone else, that person was NOT married to Mary unless there is some polygamy going on there that I was not aware of.  So, on purely technical merit, Mikel is correct.
         
         However, to defend Brenda's point, Jesus could actually be the son of Joseph if she was artifically impregnated with his seed.  I'm fairly sure that this was beyond contemporary science of the day, but maybe by aliens or something, you know? If it was aliens, that could explain the bright light hovering over the manager at low enough altitude that it actually allowed people to find the manager specifically, because otherwise, there's no way you could navigate to a singular spot on Earth with just ONE star.  So, given that possibility, I think you are solid to keep believing as you believe with at least plausible deniability.  And you are welcome.

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            cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            strangely enough, the idea of extraterrestrials impregnating Mary seems more plausible than God doing it...

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            1. 73

               Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               You know I know a guy that wrote a hub about that....lol

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            2. 77

               Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I wrote a short story and about 3/4 of a novel based on that very idea.  Then found out it had been done tons of other times already to greater or lesser degrees.  You know, a little genetic tampering would explain the powers he is reported to have had, and maybe the aliens were tweaking him because they knew those barbarians needed someone to teach them how to not be such collosal a-holes.  Just a hypothesis, but I agree, seems more plausible than the one that's been bandied about for so many centuries now (the story the aliens wrote to make their plan work in the minds of primitives).  LOL.

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               Pearldiverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               So that explains the haylow thingy

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                  Nik Aberleposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  HAHA! You guys are hilarious. Can anyone point me in the direction of one of these books that claim Mary was impregnated by aliens?

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      cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      i always wondered about that. why God would put all that pressure on Mary, a poor frightened unwed child. she's lucky she wasn't stoned by the villagers. then again, very little of what is in the Bible makes any sense at all...

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         Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         You brought up another very interesting point!
         
         It made me wonder what would've happened if Mary had been ashamed of the Life inside her and tried to abort it (Him)....
         
         I think her pregnancy and her love for that child is the best example of the sanctity of life, from conception on.

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            cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            ...and yet people, including the church, have vilified unwed mothers for generations. i guess that message was lost on people.

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               Pearldiverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               But Not lost on bastards

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            2. 77

               Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Not lost, we just choose which messages to remember and which to forget depending on the situation and who's standing around watching us.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            What a shame.
            
            Just imagine - one less reason to kill and murder each other - and no people like you with the holier-than-thou, do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do hypocrisy.
            
            The scraping of a few cells seems a small price to pay to save all those lives. I bet Jesus would have swapped his life for all those innocents burned during the inquisition.
            
            WWJD?
            
            Pretty sure he would say "abort."

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            1. 77

               Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               ROFL Mark.  Only you could turn Jesus on himself.  lmao

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               1. 59

                  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Couldn't resist that one.
                  
                  Mikel is right anyway - one less Bastard? I would have thought the religionists would be all over that........

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                  1. 73

                     Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Hey!! I'm religious, and I'm a bastard, and I'm in good company too... what are you trying to say? 

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                        Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I am trying to say religion makes no sense and everyone takes the bits they want and ignores the bits they don't.
                        
                        I don't know if things would be a million times worse. But - for the sake of argument I will say things would have been a million times better.
                        
                        Now prove me wrong.
                        
                        And by your own arguments LOL - it should be at least 50/50.
                        
                        50/50 chance of being a million times better - surely that is worth a few scraped cells?

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                        1. 73

                           Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           a 50/50 chance also means there is a 50% chance of it being a million times worse...
                           
                           Hindsight is 20/20... without knowing the future we have to take it on faith... Just like we do today... we hope our actions don't result in a salem witch hunt or an inquisition... but you never know.
                           
                           so the choice comes down to a faith based decision... try and possibly fail, or abort and don't try at all?
                           
                           I choose to try, because I believe.

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                              Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              You are also prepared to ignore the 2000 years of conflict that has ensued and is continuing today. The Salem witch trials and the inquisition DID happen. I don't just have blind irrational faith that they happened.
                              
                              I think it would have been better without jesus's garbled nonsense to fight over.
                              
                              Prove me wrong.
                              
                              Oh - and Brenda - "ruthlessly irreverent"? Au contraire - I love that.

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                                 Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 I can't prove you wrong. It may have been better... but not ever trying because we have an example of a failed attempt isn't the answer.
                                 
                                 My proof is all the successful attempts at bettering humanity...
                                 
                                 So without knowing the future, if Today was a day in the life of Mary and she was deciding to abort or not...
                                 
                                 my advice would be...
                                 
                                 Let Him live to try.

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                                    Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Yeah - but we are looking back at 2000 years of warfare and ongoing conflict. I have the benefit of hindsight.
                                    
                                    And god knew this was going to cause conflict - in fact - if you believe this crap about jesus being god - jesus knew millions would burn in His name. Which makes him the other sort of Bastard as well.

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                                       Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       On second thought, there's another entity that never changes either....
                                       
                                       SSSS....you know the rest.

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                                          Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          Yes I do. I see you Kausing Konflict. No doubt your Master is very pleased with you. Sssssssssssssss

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                                    2. 73

                                       Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       only if you assume that it would not have been worse if Jesus hadn't done what Jesus did.
                                       
                                       Knowing that giving a vaccine will kill half the population, that if you don't give will kill them all... is not evil it is saving the half you can. Even though you killed half the population.

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                                       1. 59

                                          Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          I am not assuming anything. 50/50 right?
                                          
                                          In the absence of proof - every single thing has a 50/50 chance of being right according to you.
                                          
                                          You are the one doing the assuming.

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                                          1. 73

                                             Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                             You are assuming, you are assuming that without Jesus things would have been better. The crusades would not have happened, the inquisition would not have happened etc.
                                             
                                             The assumption is that what would have happened would have been better and not worse.
                                             
                                             The possibility is that had Jesus not come we might have had 100 million inquisitions, 100 million Salem witch hunts...
                                             
                                             It is possible that things would have been 100 million times worse than what they were.
                                             
                                             Not accepting that possibility is an assumption.

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                                             1. 59

                                                Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                No. It is always a 50/50 chance. I am not assuming anything. There is a 50/50 chance that things would have been better.
                                                You are the one bringing in new stuff here. 50/50 means just that.
                                                
                                                50/50 is pretty good odds. No one mentioned anything about 100 million inquisitions - which I am pretty sure would have wiped us out to the point where no one would have wanted one of them any more. Maybe that would have been "better" too.
                                                
                                                So - 2 x 50/50s and both of them are better.
                                                
                                                You are right - Jesus was an utter bastard.

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                                                   Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                    
                                                   
                                                   I never said that about Jesus, and especially not with that usage of the term. I resent the implication, and the putting of words in my mouth, but thanks for playing.

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                                                      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                      Resent the implication? Oh - I get it........ LOLO
                                                      
                                                      You need to lighten up, but I apologize if you thought I was trying to get other people to think you said that.
                                                      
                                                      See how the 50/50 thing is working though? There is a 50/50 chance things would have been better.
                                                      
                                                      I say we should fetch the time machine and go take care of bidness.

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                                                         Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                         And just ignore the 50% chance that the changes would make things worse?

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                                                            Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                            Why not - we are already ignoring how bad things are? Why worry about what might be?

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                                                               Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                               All Right, fire it up...we can always go back again and keep changing things until we find the right combination right? 

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                                                                  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                                  That is indeed the primary sales pitch for The Time Machine.
                                                                  
                                                                  20/20 hindsight guaranteed........
                                                                  
                                                                  Love time travel stories. I remember a great one about a hunting trip back in time where they shot the original mammal and things were a tad changed when they got home.

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               Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               This may tee you off, Mark, but in one little aspect you're like the Lord------you never change.   Too bad you never change from being ruthlessly irreverent and mean-talkin'.

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            3. 73

               Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               
               
               
               
               You've never heard of the jewish faith I take it? That religion was around before Jesus, if memory serves...
               
               
               
               on that point I would have to agree.
               
               
               
               But if Jesus hadn't been born it may have been a million times worse? 

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2. 66

   Pearldiverposted 14 years ago

   Oh God... did you have to?

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   1. 73

      Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, because I'm working on a theory that God could not care less about 'Legal' marriage.
      
      The bond of Love is what God uses to signify marriage. I believe that when the love dies so does the joining that God created between the married couple. 'Until Death' I think meant until death of the love (your Love). Humanity took that and made it about the body rather than the love (the emotion).

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3. 60

   tantrumposted 14 years ago

   Oh God ! 

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   Obscure Divineposted 14 years ago

   The term 'bastard' can also mean: an offensive or disagreeable person.  So, in that sense, I've been bastardized a long time ago.  Ha-ha!

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   cosetteposted 14 years ago

   Brenda, if the unwed Mary was, as you say, a lesson in faith and love and pride in the unborn, why does the Bible say fornication is a sin and support it with scripture that says that the wages of sin [is] death? it seems to me the church would endorse and even encourage unwed motherhood. sure would cut down on abortions...
   
   also, Jesus is supposed to be the fleshly incarnation of God, if i read you correctly in other forums, so when he encountered those people about to stone that prostitute to death, why did he stop them and say 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone', since in God's word, the price for sin was death?

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      Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      nicely stated. 

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      Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      All I can say is that I don't believe Jesus was condoning prostitution or adultery in general,  but He was saying that it wasn't right for the men to claim innocence and use the woman as a scapegoat for their own sins.
      
      And He did tell the woman to "Go, and sin no more."  He didn't say Go and keep sinning....
      He was preaching repentance, as usual, and that's what He came to earth to do.

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         Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         but he disobeyed God's law as it was written in the Bible by showing mercy and not killing her...

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            Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Jesus IS God.
            He came to "Spiritualize" the Law, is the best way I can define it....
            
            He came to illustrate to mankind that it's our eternal souls we should be held most accountable for, not just natural laws...

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               Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I strongly disagree. -Jesus and God are not the same, God is greater. Without Jesus we still have God as before... without God, Jesus is irrelevant.
               
               -If the name most used is Jesus, then it is about Jesus... If the name most used is God, then it is about God.
               
               
               
               Jesus came to tell humanity that 'the Bible' was flawed, that the things they held the most dear and held as absolutes were not. Jesus Came to tell people to open their minds and stop being blind followers that would not think for themselves, and they killed him for it.

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            Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Always the contradiction, always the paradox.
            Regardless of what the preaching is about, the writings are clearly paradoxical, contradictory and controversial. Hence the mighty fine interpretations and forms of religion that we have.
            
            According to the Bible, the inference is that we are all unworthy as any bastard would be. And if there is a bastard anywhere in your family line, then by decendency, your lineage is "poisoned" and therefore unworthy of God. I'd say there is a 100% chance of any of us having a bastard in our lineage. Repenting doesn't remove the bastard from the family line. The fact that Jesus was a bastard simply indicates that he is a universal symbol and is like the rest of mankind, otherwise, he would have been born in a palace to perfectly pure bloodline.
            
            The symbolism goes on and on. You take from it what you want, as Mark says.

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               Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               
               
               I have to say that since I am a bastard that I believe bastards are just as good as anyone else. This is also why I cannot support racism, sexism or any of the 'isms' that support one group of newborns over another.
               Choices that we make are the only things that make a group better or worse than another. The Caste system is to me the biggest of the 'isms' problem, and is responsible for the birth of racism and the rest.
               
               I cannot blame/find-fault-in someone for how they were born, nor can I reward someone because of it. But you are correct historically, humanity does just that.
               
               {If being like Jesus is a good thing and everyone should try to be like Jesus... Isn't being a bastard therefore better than not being a bastard? Doesn't that mean that bastards should be treated as better than everyone else?        }

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                  Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I agree.
                  The funniest thing to me is AS IF any of us had a choice in *how* we were conceived or born. That's the most disturbing and pathetic thing of all. To be looked down upon over things that we never could nor ever will be able to control. It shows the depth of shallowness and stupidity common among mankind, unfortunately. And better yet, I think it shows that we are not so good as we all pretend to be. We are, as far as I can tell, all about the same in many respects. Like colored threads in a tapestry. If you take out one color, the tapestry is irreversibly changed. We seem to "need" each other in that respect, and yet we fight against claiming one side bad and the other good.
                  
                  Tolerance is more than tolerating as expressed in the video. It is much more about acceptance. And most of the issues about acceptance are things on a list we never could nor ever will be able to control.

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                     Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     
                     
                     That video is in the other thread Daniel... (you made smile) It does all tie in together though doesn't it. 

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   Disturbiaposted 14 years ago

   I thought this forum was going to be about famous people who were born out of wedlock, but it's nothing more than just another religious blabberfest.

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      Obscure Divineposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Yeah, at least the thread was full of bastards that took turns at bastardizing one particular famous bastard, for now.  Hmm, better than nothing...   One down and ??? to go...... 

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   mega1posted 14 years ago

   those who have to have churchs also seem to need terms like "bastard"    - the rest of us just don't need those things and are happily innocent and blameless.  class dismissed.

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   Disturbiaposted 14 years ago

   Just for kicks and giggles, here is a list of some famous bastards:
   
   Leonardo da Vinci
   Alexandre Dumas
   Alexander Hamilton
   Marilyn Monroe
   Sarah Bernhardt
   William the Conqueror
   Eva Peron

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   LeanManposted 14 years ago

   Hi Mikel,
   
   As one Bastard to another, I would just like to ask what all this crap is about religion!
   
   By the way not only am I bastard but my nickname was C.U.B..
   
   Complete Utter Bastard... not sure what i did to deserve this.. heheehehe... but always able to speak my mind, and the truth..
   
   Is this something this jesus fello spake about.. truth..to my recollection I was always called Bastard when i spoke the truth... Is there a link???

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