Denial of the Creator is a made up delusion of the Skeptics

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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/39536?page=2#post916969

Paarsurrey wrote:

"It is very natural, pro-evolution and pro-life to believe in the existing of the Creator- God Allah YHWH. Like we believe in our parents; we believe in God."

Getitrite wrote:

Sounds like you are manufacturing a "reality" to fit a delusion.

Paarsurrey says:

I am not creating any reality. Your parents were a reality; you would agree on this. Weren't they? One accepts one's parents very naturally without any questioning; because they love one so much, they care one so much, they provide one with taking great care; and of course it is very natural.

The same way one believes one's Creator- God Allah YHWH; who set the evolution going and we were born into this world very naturally.

I think it is the denial of the Creator; which is a made up delusion of the Skeptics.

You may stick to your illusion however; no compulsion whatsoever.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  thisisoliposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think one accepts ones parents because they exist, this does not apply to any of the thousands of religious dieties.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend thisisoli
  
  I only talk of the Creator- God Allah YHWH, not of the thousands deities. The believers of the thousands deities are as wrong as the Skeptics.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then, you are wrong, too.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  :
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  thisisoliposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  how do you seperate your beliefs with those from the thousands of others who have just as little substantial proof.
  
  The existence of Parents does not prove an existence of God, Allah, or otherwise.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend
  
  I think the Creator and the created one and the parents have a strong relationship. The Creator started the chain and hence we came into being. Before being born we do not exist;after say a hunred years when we die; we won't exist. So ours is a temporary existence.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  DavitosanXposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You didn't even come close to rebating the argument, you just continued your preaching. People won't listen to you if you don't address their points, and address them with a logical foundation.
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  fred allenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That sounds so sad paarsurrey. If that were true, why not eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die? I know a resurected Savior who promised to bring me with Him into His kingdom. I have experienced His presence and seen His works. He is faithful to His word. Love is His war cry!
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Would that be the same as Muslims denying Christianity and calling it a delusion?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi .....
  
  They are only mythical about Trinity and Jesus dieing on the Cross. It was not Jesus' teaching. I don't think there is any parallel.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Allah and the angel Gabriel are mythical, so yes, there is a parallel.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi...
  
  You are again wrong. The angel Gabriel brings the Word of Revelation on the commandment of the Creator- God Allah YHWH; there is no doubt about it. Please don't be skeptical un-necessarily. What harm does angel Gabriel do to you people that you say he is a myth. The Creator- God Allah YHWH, sent Gabriel with a Word from him, a very systematic revelation called Quran. You must have seen a Quran; and perhaps read it also. Like the Universe have been created flawlessly by the Creator- God Allah YHWH, similarly Quran has been authored by Him flawlessly. You are mistaken; Gabriel is a reality created by the Creator- God Allah YHWH.
  
  What harm did Gabriel done to the skeptical that they deny him?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  DavitosanXposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Believing in imaginary powers encourage people to relinquish control over their lives, and take on a very rigid code in which they base their existence. It demeans and even punishes free thinking and contrary beliefs.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  define free thinking, especially, and those contrary beliefs, if you please.
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  DavitosanXposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Free thinking: To think outside any established school of thought; to reach one's own conclusions based purely on conjecture, experience and logic.
  
  Contrary beliefs: (As if it weren't self explanatory) Beliefs that are contrary to an idea.
  
  Examples:
  
  Contrary belief: The angel Gabriel is a mythological creature. It doesn't exist and thus couldn't have appeared to Muhammad.
  
  Free thinking: Muhammad concocted Islam as a way to unite the arabs and conquer Mecca.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  unless the experience was archetypal...one could have visions of Gabriel and it would be real to that person.
  
  Did an angel speak to mohammed? not physically, but a counterpart in his consciousness may have appeared before him in a vision and through this vision he became motivated to share his understanding of the world. So in that respect, angel gabriel is real...albiet only in mohammed's mind.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your defining of "free thinking" is just another "Garden Variety" Epicure, that holds no weight in actual logic.
  
  These applied conditions render any conclusion as lacking, so long as those conditions -and method used to reach a conclusion- are entertained. Such conclusions ARE the base for all beliefs -accepted or dismissed- since all systems of man are beliefs.
  
  Dismissing something as myth or assuming one's motives does not create a rational foundation to judge those events. If this were the case, then the Manticore should be sitting with a Dawkin's posse, smoking coke a cola joints in Atlantis...
  
  This kind of 'free thinking only further negates the classic side of the Ism.
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  DavitosanXposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I still prefer epicureanism to religion. And by free thinking I didn't mean that I was absolutely right, but that I was free to think whatever I please. According to many religions, I am wrong to think the way I do, and so discourages free thinking.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Epicureanism is still a belief system and thus ultimately a religion, as is stoicism. By all accounts, within the human condition -that is consciousness (classic/romantic; equation/sensation; experiment/expression), the tres priori are ever present. This keeps humans in a fallible, limited and finite stasis always following the master, necessity, from which springs causality/purpose and many sub-elements of the Ism itself.
  
  All systems, simple or complex cannot adhere or comprehend the fullness of creation and certainly not Creator, by human consideration. The minute speck of Free Will that is drawn into the human consciousness is perhaps our only outlet. Even still, by our processes, we cannot determine how-to. So any measure of thought is a slave to our massive parallels of the Need to Know. The Freedom of choice within that stasis of thinking is seemingly infinite given those possibilities.
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't have to, the problem is human nature itself. While there are most definitely exceptions, most people would prefer to have someone tell them what they should do, and believe - freedom FROM choice. In a world of sheep and shepherds the sheep way out number the shepherds, which is what makes those shepherds so "dangerous," even when their intentions are for the "good."
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  that is irrelevant given the terms of faith v. equation, yes?
  Sheep cannot supersede the shepherd, no matter how they 'bah' from either side of the corral...
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Which unless human nature changes itself, we are our own danger to ourselves.
  
  faith v. equation doesn't need to exist at all .. religion and science are one and the same, they are both just belief systems - I wrote a hub on a similar topic, the Limitations of Thought
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, they are the same -expressed in parallel.
  This is the stance of Philo v the Ism.
  
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, the pointless versus debate is something I'd buy tickets to just because it's amusing
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  did you just call me out?
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  haha, you agree that religion and science are one and the same, so no, not you, just everybody else that's "here for my entertainment" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsPFDzAGb4A
  
  Is it wrong that I think more men should wear black eyeliner? haha
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  they should? hmmm.
  
  Oh most certainly, they are the same - the male & female house of duality now turned quality. I have been writing about it for three years and hoping the publishers will find it as cathartic as I do.
  
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely! I have a weird thing for punk men haha
  
  You might be waiting awhile
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  totally not...I also find that if Adam Lambert were straight, I'd still like his gay look! And that is the extent of my contribution to this forum!
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  haha, yes... he is HOT
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  totally!
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  fred allenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's so encouraging to see so many truth seeking souls in this forum. If truth is the primary goal I would hope that our hearts and minds are open to the possibility that it actually exists and can be found. Also that our particular viewpoint may need to change as a result. Defending what we believe can make for some spirited debate. Let's make sure we are truly open to the truth as we search for it.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Let me guess - you have the truth?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend fred allen
  
  I agree with you and I am ears to listen to others; if they could bring out the truth with reason, rationality and brilliant arguments.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just because you claim a creator exists, doesn't necessarily make it truth. Even your rationale is off.
  
  To think that life on Earth was created by some singular creator is not quite factual.
  
  Thus, when you say it, it has less weight. You may think you are right, but what you think has holes in it, because of the skewed view you've formed from whatever religion you have followed.
  
  You are no different than the terrorists of the world, who claim their war is God's war too. It's ignorance on a grand scale.
  
  Too many people have no accountability for themselves, because they continue to pass the buck to a creator who doesn't exist in the first place.
  
  Sorry, I've walked the walk when it comes to religious doctrine, and had you- you would know what I know. Otherwise, I will continue to dismiss your so-called "creator". Learn the truth, before you spout your beliefs.
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  pls define this god/allah thing you mention.
  Try to do it in other than opinion and conjecture form.
  
  Pls explain this to me.
  Why is it that when I ask a "believer" in this god/allah thing to define "it" for me in terms other than opinion and conjecture i.e. "Man" a 2 legged mammal which is warm blooded, suckles it's young, has a 4 chambered heart, has hair on its body etc., etc., they can't do it?
  Yet, many guide their lives, give their lives and adamantly defend their belief about it with naught but "guess and hope" as a foundation?
  I classify this as "insanity."
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  not necessarily. my parents were so whacked out i used to wonder if i was adopted...
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend cosette
  
  Even then you don't deny that they are your parents.
  
  Did you have a DNA test?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  why would i need a DNA test? why not just blindly accept that they were my 'creators'? do you think we should give God a DNA test to prove himself?
  
  it is in Man's nature to question when something doesn't seem correct. why would God make us so inquisitive but then get mad at us for questioning his exostence?
  
  p.s. i have my birth certificate, by the way
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend
  
  There are some Skeptics here; perhaps they won't believe their parents without a DNA test.
  
  You are natural believer with reason; don't need even a birth certificate to know your parents.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's throwing the cat among the pigeons...
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  Apostle Jackposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Personal evidence reveal more than words and self opinions
  about the matter.Experience with God will delite all hear-say.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Apostle Jack
  
  Please proceed with your argument.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paar if you weren't so fanatically involved in the world of primitive, religious ignorance, I might be inclined to think you may be sane.
  No chance!
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TheRainDancerposted 14 years ago
The existence of anything lies within ones personal perceptions of mind, sight, emotion, etc.
For some, parents do not exist. There are numerous cases of children abandoned at birth, who grow up in institutions or are adopted. In the case of adoption, these may accept their adoptive parents and revere them. There are also those who suffer at the hands of abusive parents. However, for thousands of years, belief in a higher power, a Creator of all living has prevailed and will continue to do so regardless of what skepticism arises. In fact, some skepticism only fuels the believers choice to hold on to the faith they have. If one does not believe that is their personal level of perception. But it will rarely if ever sway the perceptions of those who see life through the eyes of faith in God. For believers all situations are looked at differently and blame for humanities woes is not thrust upon the one people believe created them. They are likely to see the silver lining in every cloud, infer a lesson from every tragedy and hope for peace when faced with all adversity. Even great scientific or technological advances will be viewed from and related to their religious beliefs. If my belief in God is a "delusion" or an "illusion" to some, so be it. There isn't a greater one out there and skepticism will not deter me.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend TheRainDancer
  
  Welcome here.
  
  The orphan children don’t deny that they had parents. Even those children, who suffer at hands of their parents, won’t deny the existence of their parents.
  
  I agree with rest of your post.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, this is an example of creating a "reality" to fit a delusion. No matter how eloquently you stated your position, I can assure you that your god is not real, and your thoughts are that of a fearful and deluded mind. Delusion is ruthless to its victims!
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
What you think and the facts are poles apart.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi ....
  
  I have brought the poles very near to one another; they are the players in our existence. They are not apart; only the skeptical thinking has made you look the poles apart.
  
  Have a nice day.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Deriding skepticism does not support your claims for a god.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi...
  
  I know there are people who have only a negative thinking. They will not think positively and normally for nothing. Man was born with posetive thinking; only when he got degenerated; he was out of the balamcne, either he would believe in many deities or would deny a Divine altogether. The norm is that one should believe in one Creator- with the attributes that one sees daily reflecting in the Universe and even within ourselves.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
You have no proof for your creator blabber, still you persist on preaching. This is delusion and as you're not skeptical you can't see the flaws, i don't mind. Religious delusion made you think like this.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi ..
  
  Where are the flaws?
  
  You did not point out. Did you? It were imaginary.
  
  Thanks
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getitriteposted 14 years ago
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Saying something/someone is delusional means that you have proof "strong contradictory evidence". Without proof to the contrary, it is merely a theory that one believes.
  
  So if believing in God is a delusion, where is the proof that conclusively disproves God's existence?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Mikel G Roberts
  
  You are very right there; they are the skeptical; they should show as to why one should not believe in the Creator. Do they have any evidence? None; so , why should they deny, for nothing?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good day good friend paarsurrey
  
  Do they have any evidence? None; so , why should they deny, for nothing?
  Maybe that is so.
  But so far as I can ken, apart from logic, you no evidence for the existence of God...
  
  Therefore, for me, the solution is nihilism - a complete denial of all established authority and institutions
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  which God?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The one that me believing in causes me to be delusional. The one you can prove with absolute certainty to not exist.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend getitrite
  
  The Creator- God Allah YHWH; who created this flawless universe and also authoered flawless Quran.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My friend paarsurrey,
  
  With respect may I ask what you mean 'this flawless universe' - are people disfigured by war examples 'this flawless universe'?
  
  Cheers
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  that is ur version of things..why do u want everyone to adhere to what u believe...for u quran is flawless ,for someone else bible would be while for another both are ficition...so its ok..keep believing what u believe but why do u want others to believe as u urself do...
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend pisean282311
  
  A comparison will show it; no compulsion.
  
  Thanks
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Come on dude. LOLOL Remember - just because you can't prove it - that doesn't make it true.
  
  Gawd you religionists are funny. Desperate but, soooo very funny. I see some of your fellow deluded people had a run in with the law.
  
  http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c … _michi.php
  
  But - according to your nonsense - you can't prove they were not doing God's work - so they should be released huh?
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
Flaw number one: you claimed existence of creator without any proof. Flaw number two: you made claims on creator with sweeping statements without backing it up with evidence. Do you see the flaws ? Ofcourse you don't cause you're religious and not skeptical. So any point we make is imaginary right ? I think you agree with me friend.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Flaw number 1: You claimed the non-existence of a creator without any proof.
  
  Flaw number 2: You made claims against a creator with sweeping statements, without backing it up with evidence.
  
  Don't you see the flaws?
  
  Of course you don't because you're religiously skeptical to the truth. Which causes you to dismiss facts that lean away from what you desire to be true.
  
  I for one do not agree with you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Facts? LOLOL
  
  Oh yes. Sorry - I forgot you make up new meanings for words. What does "fact" mean then?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi ....
  
  It was said, I think, that there were three flaws; when replying one has vanished in the thin air. I don't mind. Maybe in another half an hour they also vanish.
  
  You have to give the evidence of not believing. You see in the morning a risen sun in the sky; you believe in its existence very naturally. Don't you?
  
  I said it is very natural to believe in God; it doe not need any evidence. All realities are like this.
  
  Have a nice day.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
Fine.

Give me the empirical evidence for god's existence and i'm in your side simple. No need for logical fallacies or word twisting.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Today and usually when I am having discussions with skeptics, I am not trying to prove the existence of God. I am merely pointing out the Flaws in your logic.
  
  Saying, repeatedly, that there are flaws in mine does not prove your stance to be flawless...
  
  ...it comes down to a 50/50 chance everytime... unless of course you have Proof?
  
  Got Proof?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  nope, and I have stated that many many many many many times.
  
  Which is why I say it comes down to a 50/50 chance.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So - no proof. OK
  
  So - you do believe in the God that wrote the Quran? Because you have no proof of your God - this could be the right one? 50% chance in fact.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  [/i]
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If it is a 50/50 chance as you say, why would you still chose one side and argue in its favor, shouldn't you actually remain neutral on the matter?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No. Why---> http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-Mikel-believes-in-God
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, I found the answer right away.
  
  "The belief that God exists gives me comfort."
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well said Beelzedad - nobody can 'prove' without a shadow of a doubt either side of the debate...
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  skyfireposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is shifting burden of proof which i often see in forum, if you claim god exist then burden of proof is on you. When i say god doesn't exist proof lies in lack of empirical evidence. Give it to me and i'm done. So got proof this time ?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  NO, the burden of proof is on you.
  
  You must provide evidence for anything you want to prove is true. Otherwise you must admit that the opposite view is possibly correct.
  
  Got Proof?
  
  {Again, I freely admit that it is possible that there is no God in existence. But until I have received concrete evidence proving that, I choose to believe that there is a God. http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-Mikel-believes-in-God }
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To clarify, that would also mean you are NOT trying to argue the existence of a god, nor are you even making a claim that a god exists, correct? You are absolutely 50/50 neutral in this matter?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No. I believe in God.
  
  http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-Mikel-believes-in-God
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes, I found that answer as well.
  
  "My feelings tell me God exists, and I believe"
  
  You therefore can't claim that there is a 50/50 chance of a god existing when all you offer are your feelings of wanting to believe in a god as support.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Beelzedad: "You therefore can't claim that there is a 50/50 chance of a god existing when all you offer are your feelings of wanting to believe in a god as support."
  
  No actually I can.
  
  Without proof either way there is an equal chance that either side of the issue is correct. That translates to a 50/50 chance either way.
  
  Welcome.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What proof do you have, then?
  
  Not according to the hub you linked for me to read, which indicated very little to no chance at all.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for playing.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You too, thanks for playing. You take losing an argument like a true gentlemen.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  He said I lost...
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mikel's argument as per his linked hub:
  
  "I believe in God.
  
  My feelings tell me God exists, and I believe
  
  The belief that God exists gives me comfort."
  
  That's a winning argument? Okeedokee.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I win Again...
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's a fallacy, not an argument.
  
  Had you simply answered my questions rather than just posting a link to your hubs, you might have had a chance to that argument. As it stands, your argument to me:
  
  "I believe in God.
  
  My feelings tell me God exists, and I believe
  
  The belief that God exists gives me comfort."
  
  Exactly, your reasons are your argument. Next.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good Luck with that.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I see now, I didn't know those meant, "I win!"
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  skyfireposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Weird but that possibility is view of agnostic/skeptics but he favors his theistic-belief by making agnostic statements and thinks that it's not logical-fallacy.
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  On the question of God - I'm absolutely neutral, and I have friends who believe in God and friends who do not believe in God...The world is full of different points of view - viva la difference
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend pburger
  
  In other words you are confused. The Creator-God Allah YHWH exists and hence your being neutral is not correct; no compulsion however.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  chatpilotposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mikel the burden of proof is on the theist who is making the claim as an absolute truth that their god exists. I personally don't think the existence of god or gods could be proven or disproven to the satisfaction of all involved in the debate. But when I weigh the evidence I feel it leans more towards the non existence of god. The three religions of the book namely Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all off shoots of one another.
  
  They all claim divine inspiration by this fictional god, yet they are all chock full of flaws in various confirmed fields of study such as astronomy, biology etc. Many of the stories conflict with archeological findings and even secular historical records relevant to the times they were written in. The belief in god is entirely subjective and therefore does not qualify as a fact.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi .....
  
  Many truthful persons from almost all the regions of the world and different times have testified their experiences of having conversations with the Creator- God Allah YHWH.These persons are called Messengers and Prophets of God. There is no valid reason to falsify them. Such Prophets also received Word of revelation from Him; one such revelation is Quran; which is also authored by Him. Why should one reject them for nothing.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Other than to have millions of followers beckon your every command, no reason at all.
  
  Why should one accept them for nothing?
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Alas my friend paarsurrey
  
  You struggle against an implacable sense of reason. Without empiricial evidence you will continue to meet the trenchant single-minded rationale of the positivist mind that dominates the Western world...
  
  While I do not hold with any religious faith, I defend you right to hold, debate, and promote your beliefs
  
  Peace be with you, dear brave-heart...
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  who said that one rejects them for nothing?..those who reject them have their own set of criteria for rejecting them like you have your own for believing in them...
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend pisean282311
  
  They are welcome to elaborate their criteria if there is any. I don't think they have any good criteria with them. They would have brought out here if they had had one.They are welcome to do it. We are all ears to them.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  r u sure my friend?..
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend pisean282311
  
  Why should you doubt it, my friend?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it is because there are three type of people in the world..one who dont believe in any god ..another who believe there is some energy called source but reject religions and third who believe in god according to their religion..the third kind of people are again divided into various religions and according are skeptic about other's definition of god..
  
  for example you reject christian's claim of christ dying on cross. Isn't it?...like wise christians reject muhammad's claim to prophet hood ...muslims at large reject ghulam shaab..so skepticism becomes a subjective matter...
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Taqiyaa.
  
  Many have brought out their criteria, you simply ignored it all. You most certainly are not all ears to them.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Q
  
  I don't believe in it.
  
  Thanks
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Taqiyaa, again.
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  chatpilotposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Subjective experiences do not count as evidence for the existence of god, a revelation such as the the Bible or the Koran are only a revelation to the ones claiming to have had them. To the rest of us they are nothing more than hearsay.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend chatpilot
  
  I don't agree with you; people in all ages in different parts of the world who did not have contact with one another with truthful reputation have testified for having talked to the Creator- God Allah YHWH; there is no reason why it should not be believed. The Skeptics are definitely wrong and they deny only in confusion.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years ago
Beelzedad wrote:
Deriding skepticism does not support your claims for a god.

True, Deriding skepticism, derides the religious belief in the non-existence of God.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So - you believe in the God that wrote the Quran?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have proof that any God wrote the Quran? I'd like to see that.
  
  I for one believe that it was written by some human being.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Please prove that.
  
  Otherwise it is 50/50 and I don't see how you can argue with that.
  
  But - you seem to disbelieve randomly without proof that God did not write the Quran.
  
  Now - I am confused because you believe everything unless you have proof against it.
  
  Explain please.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't need to prove any such thing. All I need to do is make a statement - it is up to you to disprove it.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  According to the skeptics here, Lack of proof= proof?
  
  Then consider my point as proven true. Here is no evidence to support the non-existence of God, which proves God exists... Right??
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No.
  
  Please prove that the God that wrote the Quran does not exist.
  
  Thank you.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I can't, I don't have any proof. So I must admit that it is possible.
  
  But I will stay with my belief until there is proof one way or the other.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OK
  
  Now prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not God and does not exist.
  
  Are we still at 50/50 for these?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I can't. So I must admit that it is possible.
  
  But I choose to remain with my belief, that it is fictional, until proof can be provided either way.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Now prove that the Star Goat does not exist.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I can't. So I must admit that it is possible.
  
  However no proof has been provided so I choose to remain with my belief, that it is fictional, until proof can be provided either way.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Mikel G Roberts
  
  The Word of Revelation from the Creator- God Allah YHWH, called Quran,was spread on 23 years of ministry of Muhammad . It was a verbal Revelation; though it was dictated by Muhammad to the scribes. The word Quran means verbal revelation; not the written one; though for preservation purposes it was also written down. Quran was verbally learnt to heart by Muhammad and many of his companions as soo as it was revealed. It was not authored by Muhammad but by the Creator.
  
  I think that helps
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am aware that that is what you believe, but your belief is not proof.
  I am also aware that neither is my belief proof. So until proof is produced, we will simply have to agree that there is a 50/50 chance that either of us is correct, and agree to disagree.
  
  On a side note, I believe that it no longer matters how the Muslim faith got started... it has been corrupted into a tool of fanatics and politicians. It is not what it started out as, and I believe that Muhammad would be ashamed of what it has become.
  
  ...My Humble Opinion.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do not have any PROOF but I do think that Islam is not what it started out being
  Christianity is not what it started out being
  Science is not what it started out to be
  
  Nothing on thei earth is what it started out to be, even the earth itself. A simple rock comes close... but .. it too changes minutely.
  
  My beliefs are constantly changing.. hopefull for my betterment, But who is to say?
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for telling me - The word Quran means verbal revelation
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi ...
  
  Yes; I belive the Creator- God Allah YHWH who created this universe, the same Creator authored Quran.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
Let me guess, using dialup connection ?

Here we go,Lack of evidence of creator on which you're creating stories and unable to give empirical evidence if his existence is that obvious for you.

Sun-rise and sun-set are natural phenomena and comparing it with universal creator by assuming his existence is not at all making sense. More word play from you i guess.

You said cause you;re religious and not skeptic to find the difference between natural, un-natural. You don't understand what is natural and un-natural without finding flaws do you ? hey, but you're not skeptical so how can you say that it is natural without understanding unnatural ?

Your another assumption.Thanks for word-play.
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
Burden of proof is on the person who claims something. When i claim god doesn't exist i point to your lack of empirical evidence/proof. So burden of proof is not on me cause i'm not making stories based on god/satan. am i ?

That applies to you as you can't prove existence of god still persist on making stories by assuming his existence but i've given you proof that you can't prove your views. So who needs to admit ?

Read about burden of proof.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Mikel wrote: True
  
  Mikel wrote: Lack of proof is not proof, it is nothing. So you have provided nothing and are claiming nothing is proof, that is a fallacy.
  
  Mikel wrote: To prove your point, the burden of proof IS on you.[/b]
  
  Mikel wrtote: You have provided Nothing, nothing is not proof, it is Nothing. I have given you proof that you have no proof, by your logic that proves my position.
  
  Mikel wrote: You Do.
  
  Mikel wrote: I have, and it clearly states I am correct in my use of the burden of proof, and that you are incorrect.
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  skyfireposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  "Lack of proof from the person who claims" shows that any story/claim he makes for that is false and made up. So if anyone objects that then it's "nothing for you as it makes uncomfort for your position" but it proves point that anyone who can't back up their claims are making stories. And this is not a fallacy.
  
  It's not meaningless cause can you back up your stories of god and satan with empirical evidence ? So who holds burden of proof me ? am i claiming something ? To prove my point again, burden of proof is on you.
  
  #2 "Lack of proof from the person who claims" shows that any story/claim he makes for that is false and made up. So if anyone objects that then it's nothing for you but it proves point that anyone who can't back up their claims are making stories. And this is not a fallacy.
  
  Nope, you're incorrect cause if you claim something then you need to backup. So when you say god exist, come up with proof, i hope you get the burden of proof ? I see i'm correct here.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for playing.
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qwarkposted 14 years ago
Children! Children!
ENUF!
Now, what is this god thing you are arguing about?
If neither of you know..then why are you kids arguing about nothing?...hmmm?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  qwark: "Now, what is this god thing you are arguing about?"
  
  http://hubpages.com/hub/I-want-to-tell- … eve-God-is
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qwarkposted 14 years ago
Hahahaha...children will be children!
Arguing about sumthin' they know nuthin' about.
fun to watch as long as it doesn't get physical..:-)
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Mikel G Roberts wrote:

NO, the burden of proof is on you.

Skyfire wrote:

Burden of proof is on the person who claims something.
Mikel G Roberts wrote:True

Skyfire wrote:

When i claim god doesn't exist i point to your lack of empirical evidence/proof.
Lack of proof is not proof, it is nothing. So you have provided nothing and are claiming nothing is proof, that is a fallacy.

Skyfire wrote:

So burden of proof is not on me cause i'm not making stories based on god/satan. am i ?<----Meaningless.

To prove your point, the burden of proof IS on you.

Paarsurrey says:

I agree with friend Mikel G Roberts ; that the burden of proof is on the Skeptics.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
Logical fallacy-appeal to common practice.

Really ? that proves nothing as you can't give evidence. We need evidence not word play. Either you and rest of them are lying or are ready to give empirical evidence, simple.

Just because you and rest of the other say so doesn't make them messengers of god.

There are many reasons but you're not skeptical and you can't differentiate as well so how can you figure that out ?

another assumption.

assumption again.

empirical evidence? simple.
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do not 'believe' God exist.
  
  And although Paarsurrey does not convince that God exists, nor do you do not convince that you 'know' God does not exist...
  
  Where is your evidence, without resorting to logic, based on nothing but empirical data, to prove the theory 'God does not exist'?
  
  We have nothing but beliefs about God(s), either for or against; nothing is proved either way...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So - does that mean that god is just as likely to exist as not and we should ignore the impossibility of proving a negative?
  
  Or is that just more woowoo word salad looking to prove I know not what?
  
  The way I look at it is - there are two choices only:
  
  1. A god exists
  2. A god does not exist
  
  I think we will agree that there are no half measures in this case. So:
  
  In the absence of proof either way there is a 50/50 chance of a god existing (ignoring common sense and any sort of logical application as I know you do not like that.)
  
  There are an infinite number of possible gods.
  
  Therefore it is infinity:one against a specific god as defined by whoever defines it existing.
  
  Therefore it is infinitely more likely that a god does not exist than one does. And anyone who commits to the infinity:one bet is probably wrong.
  
  I personally do not believe a god exists and I would go further and say I do believe that all the people claiming to know that one does are either wrong, mistaken or outright charlatans.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why does it matter if a god exists or not? Both arguments can never be solved. If any god exists, humans are to praise/blame. Course, you already know this, as do all humans. The universe/Creator is not 'a god'. Can humans get passed it. Seems silly to ague the same fundamental (fun dumb mental perhaps) falsehoods on both ends of the string theories.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because everyone who thinks god exists feels the need to develop a religion with compulsions that others need to follow. That is what I am arguing against.
  
  But - you are now calling the Universe a "Creator" and implying a personality. And your religion feeds theirs.
  
  Go Elohim!!! How Great Is HE!!!! LOLOLOL Funny stuff for some one without an ISM.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To understand the Ism, Marcus, you have to understand without the Ism/the applied condition. My personal titling of Elohim stems from my mum and only used in that reference. The Universe has character just observe a single strand of grass. So ascribing Creator simply implies the entire thing, not a singled out ideology. But, again, you know this. (I would say I was preaching to the choir, but that would resurface the Vatican with even more tar. ha ha!)
  
  All-be-it, religion by sensation or equation are running amuck with no visible signs of slowing down. And maybe that's a good thing. At some point, perhaps, both will run out of hot air and just seize to exist.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To be continued - I am off to a pre film festival party in Cannes and hope to sell a screen play..... Wish me luck.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  break a leg, brother!
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  say hello to my sister...
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Break a leg Mark!
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  did you sell it?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not yet. Another meeting on Sunday.
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
Burden of proof is on one who claims things, skeptics are objecting on person who claims such things so how can skeptics hold burden of proof ?

So "when you can't back up your wild wet allah claims with empirical evidence" then you're making stories(lying in short) if unable to give proof then shifting burden of proof on skeptics with word play cause it troubles your position,my friend. LMAO...
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Skyfire wrote:

“Logical fallacy-appeal to common practice.”

“empirical evidence? Simple”

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend skyfire

There is no logical fallacy here. In fact the Creator- God Allah YHWH says that nobody could see or perceive Him with his own effort/eyes. The things created by Him which have physical/bodily form could be seen with the experiments of the Scientific Method. This formula is not valid for the Creator.

I quote His words:

[6:102] The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a son when He has no consort, and when He has created everything and has knowledge of all things?
[6:103] Such is Allah, your Lord. There is no God but He, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Guardian over everything.
[6:104] Eyes cannot reach Him but He reaches the eyes. And He is the Incomprehensible, the All-Aware.
[6:105] Proofs have indeed come to you from your Lord; so whoever sees, it is for his own good; and whoever becomes blind, it is to his own harm. And I am not a guardian over you.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=100

In fact when you demand such evidence; you admit the truthful existence of the Creator-God Allah YHWH.

The fallacy is on your side; you think the Creator is like the things created; and hence you want to perceive him under your own terms with the tools that are not made for that purpose.

It is like trying to pull a nail, which has gone deep into the wood, with a hammer instead of a claw, the proper tool for that purpose.

Maybe it helps you

I don’t mind if you remain a skeptical; no compulsion and no hard feeling whatsoever.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

there is no burden of proof.
homemade bourbon is 90% proof.
bourbon is not a burden.
to your health! salute!

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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Twenty One Days
  
  I don't mind. Remain in peace.
  
  Yet the burden will remain on the Skeptics.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If it's not Satan, it's a skeptic onto shifting the burden.
  
  Does the bell not toll for thee?
  
  You must understand, paarsurrey, that suburban angst begins with having no ice, too much polysorbate 80 and arbitrary donuts in the diet.
  
  We are a nation of pinheads where mothers milk can lead to self-immolation.
  
  Surely, that's proof enough for anyone.
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
skyfire wrote:

empirical evidence? simple

Paarsurrey says:

Religion says that the Creator- God Allah YHWH is only known by his attributes and does not have any physical body. If you mean by empirical evidence a scientific proof; that Science already have provided by their admittance when they say they have found no clue of Him in the Universe.

This is a solid proof that Religion is right.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing is everything and everything is nothing.
  
  ~~ Bizzaro World
  
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Paarsurrey wrote:

These persons are called Messengers and Prophets of God.

Skyfire wrote:

Just because you and rest of the other say so doesn't make them messengers of god.

Paarsurrey says:

Just because you and rest of the other Skeptics out of their sheer confusion say doesn't prove that they were not messengers prophets of god.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Paarsurrey says:

There is no valid reason to falsify them.

Skyfire says:

There are many reasons but you're not skeptical and you can't differentiate as well so how can you figure that out ?

Paarsrrey says:

Your reason won't have been worthwhile so you have not written them. Please write them so that Skepticism is exposed to the full.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I knew my prophet detector was right.
  
  You do believe you are a prophet. Maybe you can get up with Mohit and learn how to sell your prophet ebooks.
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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
If both a Muslim and a Christian were fighting logic, which one would win?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend marinealways24
  
  If you are also not involved in the discussion; naturally you cannot win either.
  
  Only that person would win who is truthful on the issue and presents his wiew point with reason, rationality and logical arguments.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So - the lie is exposed. You are attempting to win.
  
  Thank you Usmanali.
  
  But - you are not using reason, rationality and logical arguments - you are lying and presenting your opinion as fact. Is this allowed according to your laws, Usmanali?
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not only allowed, it is expected and encouraged when Islam is at stake.
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  DavitosanXposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No one would win. Ignorance always leads to defeat. (Two sets of circular logic will never get anywhere)
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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
paarsurreyposted 4 minutes agoin reply to this
Hi friend marinealways24

If you are also not involved in the discussion; naturally you cannot win either.

Only that person would win who is truthful on the issue and presents his wiew point with reason, rationality and logical arguments.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Sorry, Wrong answer. Neither the christian or the muslim would win, LOGIC would win.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend marinealways24
  
  Then come on with your logic, please; if it is truthful. You are welcome
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How about, there is no such thing as a peaceful muslim or christian, the terms alone cause disagreement. I don't think your prophethood is coming true.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  zzzzzzzzzz....there are many peaceful muslims and christians. they are just not peaceful when they're fighting over OIL and LAND
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marinealways24posted 14 years ago
That was quick and easy.
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Deborah Sextonposted 14 years ago
Neither side can prove nor disprove God...
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Neither side can prove nor disprove [insert anything from the imagination that does not exist]...
  
  Hey Deborah, lookin' good today!!!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, you too.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  The Skeptics because of their doubts cannot experience Him; many truthful persons experienced Him when he talked to them in almost all parts of the world.
  
  We can also experience Him from his Word Revealed.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  At last, Deborah Sexton, you sound a voice for reason
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That isn't reason, it's a cop out.
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Denial of the Creator is a made up delusion of the Skeptics
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Hi friends

There are some Skeptics here; perhaps they won't believe their parents without a DNA test.

If one is a natural believer with reason;one doesn't need even a birth certificate to know one's parents. The Skeptics however need it and musth demand it from their parents; otherwise in their doubts they may think they are born of a rabbit.
Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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kimberlyslyricsposted 14 years ago
am I in denial?

so confused

:
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SparklingJewelposted 14 years ago
It is my opinion, that denial of the existence of a Creator is complicated by the human perception of what is and is not the Creator, through the numerable religions and belief systems.

The answer to accepting some form of Creator, or at least the existence of some "Source" from which all energy came that made everything, may be for some, to not put so much stock in those systems; but understand that it is up to the individual to seek and find his/her feeling of acceptance of their part to play in the Universal Plan as being the most important point...and then being the best human being that they can be in life to fulfill that Plan.

It has been my experience that reason and feeling are important. I can understand completely why some object so to doctrine and dogma of religions and beleif systems...they are too humanly limited and persecuting of human life.

sometimes what they deny is valid and is not of the Creator.
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Naturalreflectionposted 14 years ago
This concept can be easily understood if introduced in the proper way. A dependent being is something that can not exist on its own; it needs a creator. We are dependent beings in that we are born from our parents who were born from their parents and so on. A non-dependent being is something that needs no cause of its existence. Its existence is only explained by its existence.

An infinite chain of dependent beings can not exist because the question of how the first dependent being came into existence is not explained. No matter how many dependent beings you have, you still need at least one non-dependent being to start the reaction. This is the Creator, and this is what humans attach the word God to.

The existence of a creator is undeniable with this argument, but for us to make claims of his intentions, characteristics, and interventions in human life is something that we can not possibly perceive. It is a great possibility that the Creator of the universe does not care about us at all.

I am a skeptic, not of the existence of a creator, but of what mankind attempts to claim about him in order to tell other people how to live their lives.
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  SpanStarposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you can believe what you want to believe and people can misrepresent God so I believe the bible was given us so that we do not have to take the word or actions of men.
  
  I say this only for clarification to some of your statements don't think for one minute I want you to do anything but that which you choose to do.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Even though the bible was in fact written by men.
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  SpanStarposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm presuming you're presenting this question to me and I'm not sure what you're really trying to say but if your saying it shouldn't be believed because it was written by men then my understanding is God was the inspiration for the writing because the writers didn't even understand those things they were writing about. I look at it like we look at ghost writers today.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You can believe it if you want.
  
  However, you must remember it was written by men who CLAIMED to be inspired by a god, just like the thousands of other men who wrote other scriptures claiming to be inspired by gods.
  
  Just how many men who claimed to be inspired by various gods are we to believe?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend SpanStar
  
  There cannot be contradictory inspiration from one source.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you really think the Bible is the Word of God ? Who wrote it ? God or Man ?
  I'm sure you know the correct answer is Man.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  NightEmpress a true believer would say the hand was Man but the inspiration was God. The Bible is full of contradictions and omissions. This doesn't seem very Godly to me. For Example when it comes to the last supper who was the loved one? We don't Know. Some people have speculated that it was Mary Magdalene but the truth is no one really knows for sure.
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And it doesn't matter anyway. LOL
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, probably not....It would be nice to think of Jesus in a relationship with Mary but we'll probably never know.
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure Jesus loved a lot of people ! Or maybe not
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I meant a relationship such as husband and wife but I take it you're just funning me. Naughty NightEmpress!
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artsy_fartsyposted 14 years ago
Here's some great info. enjoy

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … 6601832542
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry link wouldn't work for me. A pity.
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  SpanStarposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It was a long video but it did have interesting things to say. You know man has been apposed to God since Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. There are those who no matter what you say will ever accept God and they are free to do so. I just can't understand why they fight against that which they feel doesn't exist?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - so what you are saying is - No religion has ever imposed itself on anyone and no wars have ever been caused. And those who believe in an invisible super being tend to keep it quietly between themselves and do not go around preaching about it?
  
  Right?
  
  And yes - no matter what you say - your god does not exist.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
pisean282311 said
it is because there are three type of people in the world..one who dont believe in any god ..another who believe there is some energy called source but reject religions and third who believe in god according to their religion..the third kind of people are again divided into various religions and according are skeptic about other's definition of god..
=====================================
Jerami says
in truth there is only one catigory of people

Those that think that they are right and everyone with other believs just don't know what you do.
I don't think like that therefore, "they" must be wrong.
Everybody's doin it.
Now be honest, you do it too ... and then we analize that we don't do that; except for when they are wrong??
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  interesting point..thought provoking too...
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  but in reality... many people on these forums are as much as saying this every day.
  these can be divided into three groups'
  Those that are rude when they say it;
  and those that do it politely.
  And those that are sneaky when they do it.
  
  Many don't even realize that they are doin it.
  But everyone is doin it.
  
  If you just knew what I do, you would agree with me.
  
  There I just did it. (again)
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
I just took a quick walk through the forums.
(religion & beliefs)
Everybody is doin it.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Jerami
  
  And Skeptics do it most.
  
  Thanks
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Skeptics are more in your face when they do it.
  
  Others are smiling at ya when they do it.
  
  Some are in denial that they are doin it
  
  But everybody's doin it.
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  BDazzlerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am NOT in denial!
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Me either
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Jerami
  
  I know they are doing it in confusion and doubts; not even Science support them. They don't have any other alternative. Do they?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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SpanStarposted 14 years ago
All through bibilical history men have not believed in God modern man isn't doing anything new.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you think that those people hundreds of years ago that did not believe in God could/would have hidden or destroyed evidence of the creator, so that others would believe as they do.
  It is said that the Church collected absolutely everything that they could find concerning the life of Christ.And these are in arcives at the vatican that no one are allowed to examine.
  It does not suprise me that there is little documentation avaliabel fto society of the existance of Jesus and his teachings.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Jerami
  
  No, it is the Skeptics and Atheists who did it in their own confusion without any truthful argument.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How is accusing atheists of being liars being peaceful, Usmanali?
  
  By your own admission - you are skeptical of all other religions, and you have no reasonable evidence for your own irrational beliefs.
  
  You have not provided any reason at all and are lying about the history of your religion. How is this peaceful?
  
  Truthfully - you have no reasonable argument or evidence do you?
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
paarsurrey
I know they are doing it in confusion and doubts; not even Science support them. They don't have any other alternative. Do they?
====================

Yes we do have other alternatives.
If we could stop doing that we might actually hear other opinions and see that we do not have all of the right answers.

I have seen truth in things that everyone on here have said.
Sometimes people are saying the same things but are argueing with others about the prospective from which they are expressing themselves.

There is so much understanding being lost because we protect our own ideas by closing our eyes to other ideas that aren't even at odds with ours as much as we precieve them to be.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Jerami
  
  Now your eyes are open; it is OK with us. Please elaborate.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  your asking for me to elaberate upon this last post is an example of the point that I was making.
  People only see the things that we want to see.
  We are blind to things that are right before our eyes.
  
  You only saw these few words out of the entire post.
  
  I did not say that my eyes are open.
  I am attempting to see; there is a diffrence
  Some people choose to remain blind by closing their eyes and ears to everything that does not fit within their understanding.
  
  And it seems that everybody is doin it.
  Some more than others.
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SpanStarposted 14 years ago
Destroying evidences years ago about the teaching of Jesus, Oh yes that is most certainly a possiblity since what people wanted to do was to stamp out Christianity and as we can see that hasn't changed today.

The one thing about humans is we are selfish, we want things our own way and that leads me back to the Garden of Eden. Adam & Eve had no threats, no taxes to paid, they were in perfect health but it wasn't good enough they want to be a God just like God.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend SpanStar
  
  It is not true that Adam and Eve wanted to be god; they were servants of the Creator- God Allah YHWH; they wanted to improve themselves ethically, morally and spiritually to be in image of God. The scribes of Bible narrated the story incorrectly.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  SpanStarposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The bible said they serpent told them they would be like God, knowing Good & Evil. If they really wanted to improve themselves then why did they go against the wishes of God?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend SpanStar
  
  It is more fault of the scribes writing Bible. As I told they incorrectly mentioned the phenomenon.
  
  To err is human; so Eve and Adam could make a mistake, when they realized they ask forgiveness from the Creator- God Allah YHWH and he forgave them.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeh, like paarsurrey said with such certainty they got the bits he disagrees with wrong.
  
  I wos there too and saw the whole thing happen!
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is an interesting Italian film I saw ages ago where Adam and Eve are shot out of the garden of eden and find themselves in the prehistoric world battling to survive alongside cavemen. I think they threw in saber tooth tigers and woolly mammoths. A bit of a come down from a pretty garden with a babbling brook. And Earnest don't ask me what it was babbling about 'cause I don't know.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Earnest the brook was babbling no doubt in Italian and my Italian isn't the best.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would have enjoyed that sort of movie. Anything about religion cracks me up!
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago

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watchyaposted 14 years ago
I find Taqiyya very useful.

When I have to deal with 'virtual' beings like you !
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying you find it useful to lie to protect your religion?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Q
  
  There is no Taqiyya in Quran/Islam.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That would be more Taqiyaa about Taqiyaa. Well done.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Q
  
  Perhaps it is you who practice Taqiyya; it is no in Quran/Islam and Muhammad never practiced it.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually Paa...
  
  Your Qu'ran says explicitely that Allah is responsible for un-believers not believing in him. He says he has purchased thier souls ahead of time, and, I, allah, have placed a viel over thier eyes and hearts.
  
  So then it is his fault and not made up.
  
  Does it not?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend TMMason
  
  I think, you have not understood the verse from its context. Please quote the text of the verse with five preceding and five following verses for the context; and then establish your viewpoint. You will yourself understand it; or we shall discuss it here.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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TMMasonposted 14 years ago
No.

I have posted enough that you have not answered.

My view is correct. Allah himself states he has sent a strong delusion against the unbelievers.

you know where it is.... go read it again. I am sure it will click soon enough.

Also.

Let me ask you a question. Since I so openly bared my soul as to my denomination to you.

My question is.

Do you believe that "Nask", Abrogation, occurs in the Qu'ran?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend TMMason
  
  If you mean from "Naskh"; cancellation of one verse of Quran from another verse Quran; that is not in Quran; and I don't believe it.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Even though Allah himself dictates it?.... Iis in the Qu'ran.
  
  You are way out of line with mainstream.
  
  I know it differs among the Ulama as to how many verses of the Qu'ran are abrogated, anywhere from 20 to 500, but that it doesn't happen.
  
  Is just wrong.
  
  And this is from your hom,e site...
  
  http://www.alislam.org/
  
  Alah himself states...
  
  [2:107] مَا نَنْسَخْ مِنْ اٰيَةٍ اَوْ نُنْسِهَا نَاْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَآ اَوْ مِثْلِهَا‌ؕ اَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ اَنَّ اللّٰهَ عَلٰى كُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدِيْرٌ‏
  [2:107] ۞ مَا نَنسَخۡ مِنۡ ءَايَةٍ أَوۡ نُنسِهَا نَأۡتِ بِخَيۡرٍ۬ مِّنۡہَآ أَوۡ مِثۡلِهَآ‌ۗ أَلَمۡ تَعۡلَمۡ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ قَدِيرٌ
  [2:107] Whatever Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof. Dost thou not know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills?
  [2:107] جو آیت بھی ہم منسوخ کر دیں یا اُسے بھلا دیں، اُس سے بہتر یا اُس جیسی ضرور لے آتے ہیں۔ کیا تُو نہیں جانتا کہ اللہ ہر چیز پر جسے وہ چاہے دائمی قدرت رکھتا ہے؟
  
  Go Ahead read it for yourself Paas. Here is the text with pre and post text. And in Arabic. Enjoy.
  
  [2:101] اَوَکُلَّمَا عٰهَدُوْا عَهْدًا نَّبَذَهٗ فَرِيْقٌ مِّنْهُمْ‌ؕ بَلْ اَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُوْنَ‏
  [2:101] أَوَڪُلَّمَا عَـٰهَدُواْ عَهۡدً۬ا نَّبَذَهُ ۥ فَرِيقٌ۬ مِّنۡهُم‌ۚ بَلۡ أَكۡثَرُهُمۡ لَا يُؤۡمِنُونَ
  [2:101] What! every time they make a covenant, will a party among them throw it aside? Nay, most of them have no faith.
  [2:101] کیا جب کبھی بھی وہ کوئی عہد کریں گے ان میں سے ایک فریق اس (عہد) کو پرے پھینک دے گا؟ بلکہ ان میں سے اکثر ایمان ہی نہیں رکھتے۔
  
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  [2:102] وَلَمَّا جَآءَهُمْ رَسُوْلٌ مِّنْ عِنْدِ اللّٰهِ مُصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَهُمْ نَبَذَ فَرِيْقٌ مِّنَ الَّذِيْنَ اُوْتُوْا الْكِتٰبَۙ کِتٰبَ اللّٰهِ وَرَآءَ ظُهُوْرِهِمْ كَاَنَّهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُوْنَ‏
  [2:102] وَلَمَّا جَآءَهُمۡ رَسُولٌ۬ مِّنۡ عِندِ ٱللَّهِ مُصَدِّقٌ۬ لِّمَا مَعَهُمۡ نَبَذَ فَرِيقٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱلَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ ڪِتَـٰبَ ٱللَّهِ وَرَآءَ ظُهُورِهِمۡ كَأَنَّهُمۡ لَا يَعۡلَمُونَ
  [2:102] And now when there has come to them a Messenger from Allah, fulfilling that which is with them, a party of the people to whom the Book was given have thrown the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if they knew it not.
  [2:102] اور جب بھی ان کے پاس اللہ کی طرف سے کوئی رسول آیا جو اُس کی تصدیق کرنے والا تھا جو اُن کے پاس تھا تو ان میں سے ایک گروہ نے جنہیں کتاب دی گئی اللہ کی کتاب کو پسِ پُشت ڈال دیا، گویا وہ علم ہی نہ رکھتے ہوں۔
  
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  [2:103] وَاتَّبَعُوْا مَا تَتْلُوْا الشَّيٰطِيْنُ عَلٰى مُلْكِ سُلَيْمٰنَ‌‌ۚ وَمَا کَفَرَ سُلَيْمٰنُ وَلٰـكِنَّ الشَّيٰـطِيْنَ كَفَرُوْا يُعَلِّمُوْنَ النَّاسَ السِّحْرَ وَمَآ اُنْزِلَ عَلَى الْمَلَـکَيْنِ بِبَابِلَ هَارُوْتَ وَمَارُوْتَ‌ؕ وَمَا يُعَلِّمٰنِ مِنْ اَحَدٍ حَتّٰى يَقُوْلَاۤ اِنَّمَا نَحْنُ فِتْنَةٌ فَلَا تَكْفُرْؕ‌ فَيَتَعَلَّمُوْنَ مِنْهُمَا مَا يُفَرِّقُوْنَ بِهٖ بَيْنَ الْمَرْءِ وَ زَوْجِهٖ‌ؕ وَمَا هُمْ بِضَآرِّيْنَ بِهٖ مِنْ اَحَدٍ اِلَّا بِاِذْنِ اللّٰهِ‌ؕ وَيَتَعَلَّمُوْنَ مَا يَضُرُّهُمْ وَلَا يَنْفَعُهُمْ‌ؕ وَلَقَدْ عَلِمُوْا لَمَنِ اشْتَرٰٮهُ مَا لَهٗ فِىْ الْاٰخِرَةِ مِنْ خَلَاقٍ‌ؕ وَلَبِئْسَ مَا شَرَوْا بِهٖۤ اَنْفُسَهُمْ‌ؕ لَوْ کَانُوْا يَعْلَمُوْنَ‏
  [2:103] وَٱتَّبَعُواْ مَا تَتۡلُواْ ٱلشَّيَـٰطِينُ عَلَىٰ مُلۡكِ سُلَيۡمَـٰنَ‌ۖ وَمَا ڪَفَرَ سُلَيۡمَـٰنُ وَلَـٰكِنَّ ٱلشَّيَـٰطِينَ كَفَرُواْ يُعَلِّمُونَ ٱلنَّاسَ ٱلسِّحۡرَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ عَلَى ٱلۡمَلَڪَيۡنِ بِبَابِلَ هَـٰرُوتَ وَمَـٰرُوتَ‌ۚ وَمَا يُعَلِّمَانِ مِنۡ أَحَدٍ حَتَّىٰ يَقُولَآ إِنَّمَا نَحۡنُ فِتۡنَةٌ۬ فَلَا تَكۡفُرۡ‌ۖ فَيَتَعَلَّمُونَ مِنۡهُمَا مَا يُفَرِّقُونَ بِهِۦ بَيۡنَ ٱلۡمَرۡءِ وَزَوۡجِهِۦ‌ۚ وَمَا هُم بِضَآرِّينَ بِهِۦ مِنۡ أَحَدٍ إِلَّا بِإِذۡنِ ٱللَّهِ‌ۚ وَيَتَعَلَّمُونَ مَا يَضُرُّهُمۡ وَلَا يَنفَعُهُمۡ‌ۚ وَلَقَدۡ عَلِمُواْ لَمَنِ ٱشۡتَرَٮٰهُ مَا لَهُ ۥ فِى ٱلۡأَخِرَةِ مِنۡ خَلَـٰقٍ۬‌ۚ وَلَبِئۡسَ مَا شَرَوۡاْ بِهِۦۤ أَنفُسَهُمۡ‌ۚ لَوۡ ڪَانُواْ يَعۡلَمُونَ
  [2:103] And they pursue the course which the rebellious men followed during the reign of Solomon. And Solomon did not disbelieve; but it was the rebellious ones who disbelieved, teaching people falsehood and deception. And they pursue what was revealed to the two angels in Babylon, Harut and Marut. But these two taught no one until they had said: ‘We are but a trial, do not therefore disbelieve.’ So men learnt from them that by which they made a difference between a man and his wife, but they harmed no one thereby, except by the command of Allah; on the contrary, these people are learning that which would harm them and do them no good. And they have certainly known that he who trafficks therein has no share of good in the Hereafter; and surely, evil is that for which they have sold their souls; had they but known!
  [2:103] اور انہوں نے پیروی کی اس کی جو شیاطین سلیمان کے ملک کے خلاف پڑھا کرتے تھے اور سلیمان نے کفر نہیں کیا بلکہ وہ شیاطین تھے جنہوں نے کفر کیا۔ وہ لوگوں کو جادو سکھاتے تھے۔ اور (اس کے برعکس) بابل میں جو دو فرشتوں ہاروت اور ماروت پر اتارا گیا (اس کا قصہ یہ ہے) وہ دونوں کسی کو بھی کچھ نہیں سکھاتے تھے جب تک وہ (اُسے) یہ نہ کہہ دیتے کہ ہم تو محض ایک آزمائش کے طور پر ہیں پس تُو کفر نہ کر ۔ پس وہ لوگ ان دونوں سے ایسی بات سیکھتے تھے جس کے ذریعے وہ خاوند اور بیوی کے درمیان جدائی ڈال دیتے تھے اور اللہ کے اِذن کے سوا وہ اس ذریعہ سے کسی کو نقصان پہنچانے والے نہیں تھے۔ اور (اس کے برعکس جو لوگ شیاطین سے سیکھتے تھے) وہ وہی باتیں سیکھتے تھے جو ان کو نقصان پہنچانے والی تھیں اور فائدہ نہیں پہنچاتی تھیں۔ حالانکہ وہ خوب جان چکے تھے کہ جس نے بھی یہ سودا کیا اس کے لئے آخرت میں کچھ حصہ نہیں رہے گا۔ پس بہت ہی برا تھا وہ (عارضی فائدہ) جس کے بدلے میں انہوں نے اپنی جانیں بیچ دیں، کاش کہ وہ جانتے۔
  
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  [2:104] وَلَوْ اَنَّهُمْ اٰمَنُوْا وَاتَّقَوْا لَمَثُوْبَةٌ مِّنْ عِنْدِ اللّٰهِ خَيْرٌؕ‌ لَوْ كَانُوْا يَعْلَمُوْنَ‏
  [2:104] وَلَوۡ أَنَّهُمۡ ءَامَنُواْ وَٱتَّقَوۡاْ لَمَثُوبَةٌ۬ مِّنۡ عِندِ ٱللَّهِ خَيۡرٌ۬‌ۖ لَّوۡ كَانُواْ يَعۡلَمُونَ
  [2:104] And if they had believed and acted righteously, better surely would have been the reward from Allah, had they but known!
  [2:104] اور اگر وہ ایمان لے آتے اور تقویٰ اختیار کرتے تو اللہ کی طرف سے (اس کا) اجر یقیناً بہت اچھا ہوتا۔ کاش کہ وہ جانتے۔
  
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  [2:105] يٰٓاَيُّهَا الَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوْا لَا تَقُوْلُوْا رَاعِنَا وَ قُوْلُوْا انظُرْنَا وَاسْمَعُوْا‌ؕ وَلِلْڪٰفِرِيْنَ عَذَابٌ اَلِيْمٌ
  [2:105] يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لَا تَقُولُواْ رَٲعِنَا وَقُولُواْ ٱنظُرۡنَا وَٱسۡمَعُواْ‌ۗ وَلِلۡڪَـٰفِرِينَ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ۬
  [2:105] O ye who believe! say not ‘Ra‘ina,’ but say, ‘Unzurna’ and hearken. And for the disbelievers is a painful punishment.
  [2:105] اے وہ لوگو جو ایمان لائے ہو (ہمارے رسول کو) ”رَاعِنَا “ نہ کہا کرو بلکہ یہ کہا کرو کہ ہم پر نظر فرما اور غور سے سنا کرو۔ اور کافروں کے لئے درد ناک عذاب (مقدر) ہے۔
  
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  [2:106] مَا يَوَدُّ الَّذِيْنَ كَفَرُوْا مِنْ اَهْلِ الْكِتٰبِ وَلَا الْمُشْرِكِيْنَ اَنْ يُّنَزَّلَ عَلَيْڪُمْ مِّنْ خَيْرٍ مِّنْ رَّبِّکُمْ‌ؕ وَاللّٰهُ يَخْتَصُّ بِرَحْمَتِهٖ مَنْ يَّشَآءُ‌ؕ وَاللّٰهُ ذُوْ الْفَضْلِ الْعَظِيْمِ‏
  [2:106] مَّا يَوَدُّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنۡ أَهۡلِ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَلَا ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ أَن يُنَزَّلَ عَلَيۡڪُم مِّنۡ خَيۡرٍ۬ مِّن رَّبِّڪُمۡ‌ۗ وَٱللَّهُ يَخۡتَصُّ بِرَحۡمَتِهِۦ مَن يَشَآءُ‌ۚ وَٱللَّهُ ذُو ٱلۡفَضۡلِ ٱلۡعَظِيمِ
  [2:106] They who disbelieve from among the People of the Book, or from among those who associate gods with Allah, desire not that any good should be sent down to you from your Lord; but Allah chooses for His mercy whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is of exceeding bounty.
  [2:106] اہل کتاب اور مشرکین میں سے جن لوگوں نے کفر کیا وہ ہرگز پسند نہیں کرتے کہ تم پر تمہارے ربّ کی طرف سے کوئی خیر اُتاری جائے حالانکہ اللہ جس کو چاہتا ہے اپنی رحمت کے لئے خاص کر لیتا ہے اور اللہ بہت بڑے فضل والا ہے۔
  
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  [2:107] مَا نَنْسَخْ مِنْ اٰيَةٍ اَوْ نُنْسِهَا نَاْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَآ اَوْ مِثْلِهَا‌ؕ اَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ اَنَّ اللّٰهَ عَلٰى كُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدِيْرٌ‏
  [2:107] ۞ مَا نَنسَخۡ مِنۡ ءَايَةٍ أَوۡ نُنسِهَا نَأۡتِ بِخَيۡرٍ۬ مِّنۡہَآ أَوۡ مِثۡلِهَآ‌ۗ أَلَمۡ تَعۡلَمۡ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ قَدِيرٌ
  [2:107] Whatever Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof. Dost thou not know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills?
  [2:107] جو آیت بھی ہم منسوخ کر دیں یا اُسے بھلا دیں، اُس سے بہتر یا اُس جیسی ضرور لے آتے ہیں۔ کیا تُو نہیں جانتا کہ اللہ ہر چیز پر جسے وہ چاہے دائمی قدرت رکھتا ہے؟
  
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  [2:108] اَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ اَنَّ اللّٰهَ لَهٗ مُلْكُ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالْاَرْضِ‌ؕ وَمَا لَـکُمْ مِّنْ دُوْنِ اللّٰهِ مِنْ وَّلِىٍّ وَّلَا نَصِيْرٍ‏
  [2:108] أَلَمۡ تَعۡلَمۡ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَهُ ۥ مُلۡكُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ‌ۗ وَمَا لَڪُم مِّن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ مِن وَلِىٍّ۬ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ
  [2:108] Dost thou not know that the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs to Allah alone? And there is no protector or helper for you beside Allah.
  [2:108] کیا تُو نہیں جانتا کہ وہ اللہ ہی ہے جس کی آسمانوں اور زمین کی بادشاہی ہے؟ اور اللہ کو چھوڑ کر تمہارے لئے کوئی سرپرست اور مددگار نہیں۔
  
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  [2:109] اَمْ تُرِيْدُوْنَ اَنْ تَسْـَٔـلُوْا رَسُوْلَـكُمْ كَمَا سُٮِٕلَ مُوْسٰى مِنْ قَبْلُ‌ؕ وَمَنْ يَّتَبَدَّلِ الْکُفْرَ بِالْاِيْمَانِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ السَّبِيْلِ‏
  [2:109] أَمۡ تُرِيدُونَ أَن تَسۡـَٔلُواْ رَسُولَكُمۡ كَمَا سُٮِٕلَ مُوسَىٰ مِن قَبۡلُ‌ۗ وَمَن يَتَبَدَّلِ ٱلۡڪُفۡرَ بِٱلۡإِيمَـٰنِ فَقَدۡ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ ٱلسَّبِيلِ
  [2:109] Would you question the Messenger sent to you as Moses was questioned before this? And whoever takes disbelief in exchange for belief has undoubtedly gone astray from the right path.
  [2:109] کیا تم چاہتے ہو کہ تم اپنے رسول سے بھی اسی طرح سوال کرتے رہو جس طرح پہلے موسیٰ سے سوال کئے گئے۔ پس جو بھی ایمان کو کفر سے تبدیل کرے یقیناً وہ سیدھی راہ سے بھٹک چکا ہے۔
  
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  [2:110] وَدَّ کَثِيْرٌ مِّنْ اَهْلِ الْكِتٰبِ لَوْ يَرُدُّوْنَكُمْ مِّنْۢ بَعْدِ اِيْمَانِكُمْ كُفَّارًا ۖۚ حَسَدًا مِّنْ عِنْدِ اَنْفُسِهِمْ مِّنْۢ بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْحَـقُّ‌ ۚ فَاعْفُوْا وَاصْفَحُوْا حَتّٰى يَاْتِىَ اللّٰهُ بِاَمْرِهٖ ‌ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰهَ عَلٰى کُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدِيْرٌ
  [2:110] وَدَّ ڪَثِيرٌ۬ مِّنۡ أَهۡلِ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ لَوۡ يَرُدُّونَكُم مِّنۢ بَعۡدِ إِيمَـٰنِكُمۡ كُفَّارًا حَسَدً۬ا مِّنۡ عِندِ أَنفُسِهِم مِّنۢ بَعۡدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ ٱلۡحَقُّ‌ۖ فَٱعۡفُواْ وَٱصۡفَحُواْ حَتَّىٰ يَأۡتِىَ ٱللَّهُ بِأَمۡرِهِۦۤ‌ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ ڪُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ قَدِيرٌ۬
  [2:110] Many of the People of the Book wish out of sheer envy from their own selves that, after you have believed, they could turn you again into disbelievers after the truth has become manifest to them. But forgive and turn away from them, till Allah brings about His decree. Surely, Allah has the power to do all that He wills.
  [2:110] اہل کتاب میں سے بہت سے ایسے ہیں جو چاہتے ہیں کہ کاش تمہیں تمہارے ایمان لانے کے بعد (ایک دفعہ پھر) کفار بنا دیں، بوجہ اس حسد کے جو اُن کے اپنے دلوں سے پیدا ہوتا ہے (وہ ایسا کرتے ہیں) بعد اس کے کہ حق ان پر روشن ہو چکا ہے۔ پس (اُن سے) عفو سے کام لو اور درگزر کرو یہاں تک کہ اللہ اپنا فیصلہ ظاہر کردے۔ یقیناً اللہ ہر چیز پر جسے وہ چاہے دائمی قدرت رکھتا ہے۔
  
  And Naskh iterally means obliteration. Naskh has been defined as the suspension or replacement of one Shariah ruling by another. And allah himself says in the Qu'ran.
  
  Are you trying to decieve or do you really not know? Abbrogation is the reason there can be no peace with the unbelievers. Never... till the day of judgement Jihad is binding upon Muslims.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend TMMason
  
  I thank you for quoting the verse with the context; which makes it very clear.
  
  The context tells us that the verse pertains to OTBible and NTBible; the verses in the context mention of the people of the Book; which are obviously the Jews and the Christians and their scriptures.
  
  If a teaching in the OTBible & NTBible is cancelled; Quran either mentions a teaching similar to that or a better one on that.
  
  I give an example from Torah:
  
  Deuteronomy 19:21
  
  Thou shalt not pity him, but shalt require life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
  
  Quran:
  
  [5:45] Surely, We sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to Us, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law; for they were required to preserve the Book of Allah, andbecause they were guardians over it. Therefore fear not men but fear Me; and barter not My Signs for a paltry price. And whoso judges not by that which Allah has sent down, these it is who are the disbelievers
  [5:46] And therein We prescribed for them: A life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and for other injuries equitable retaliation. And whoso waives the right thereto, it shall be an expiation for hissins; and whoso judges not by what Allah has sent down, these it is who are wrongdoers.
  
  http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=44
  
  Quran makes provision of forgiveness for the defaulter, if it is thought benefiting for the society; otherwise the same teaching has been repeated.
  
  I think everybody would understand it; even the Jews.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful understand
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That flies in the face of every Islamic School of thought in existence. Well 99.995 of them.
  
  Shall I post some of your scholars man.
  
  I mean that is good you look at it like that. But you may have a hard time convincing the rest of Islam.
  
  That law applies to all text sent by allah. All his signs... "ayat". the common name of reference to the verses of the Qu'ran. All.
  
  But thank you for answering Paas.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend TMMason
  
  I thought like a Westerner , you would accept your mistake open heartedly and frankly. Please read it again; there should not be any ifs and buts for Truth; it is before you; accept it; no compulsion.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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TMMasonposted 14 years ago
Still waiting Paas?
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TMMasonposted 14 years ago
So Paas. how do you explain the contridictions in the Qu'ran?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend TMMason
  
  So far, I have seen contradictions in you; not in the Quran. Just quote text of one verse with five preceding and five following verses for the context; may be I could help you.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paas. Your whole line of reasoning to islam is in contridiction with the Ulema of Usul and every Imam, Jurist, Mufti and Cleric I have ever read. And that is a whole lot....
  
  Please.
  
  I see very clearly why your sect is considered heretical. It is not me your argument is with. It is with the majority of Muslims and Islamic Scholars which reject your claims.
  
  Sorry man.... you will not convince me.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend TMMason
  
  I was not convincing you; I was just exposing contradictions in you; since you asked for it.
  
  Have a good day and live with your contradictions; there are no contradictions in Quran; you will never find one if you just see the context; if you just be blind of the context; then you see your own contradictions reflected in it. Quran is a mirror of one's personality and character; it is therefore advised in Quran, to take refuge in the Creator-God Allah YHWH before starting reading it.
  No compulsion.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Okay Paas....
  
  Again.
  
  You have to convince your own Islamic bros and sis of that. Not me. The Islam which dominates the world is a whole long ways from the idealistic Islam you practice friend.
  
  Verses 109 1nd 105 alone represent such a complete contridiction to your understanding of Islam. That it isn't funny.
  
  Sorry...
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend TMMason
  
  Have they been able to understand correct meanings of the Quran; then there was no need of advent of the Promised Messiah 1835-1908; they simply have become blind to the correct meanings; that is why Mirza Ghulam Ahmadi has been sent by the Creator- God Allah YHWH to explain correct meanings of all the Revealed Scriptures of the world.
  
  Quran is an open Book; they could also employ the context principle; in fact anyone could employ this principle and can understand Quran; and with Quran as a key, all truthful teachings in other Revealed Books or the Revealed Religions could be understood.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As I said enjoy your version of Islam. I hope it does catch on. It would save alot of lives.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
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Denial of the Creator is a made up delusion of the Skeptics

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Denial of the Creator is a made up delusion of the Skeptics

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