What is your opinion about Obama's support of third trimester abortions?
Your question is misleading. Obama does not support abortions at any stage.
If I could get a buck for every wingnut posting based on a false premise, I could retire from my cushy government job.
well actually she's not a wingnut, as i thought i had read the same thing when he was campaigning.
I was under the impression that he was NOT in favor of third trimester abortions, and that they are generally illegal. Could you point out what is giving you this impression?
Are you asking for factual support of the premise?
I am attempting polite conversation. This is a subject that interests me. Perhaps this Hubber has seen something I haven't.
It is a travesty but not unexpected. It is yet another step toward the downfall of a country and it's people morality.
4 hours later - same problem. Neither Obama, nor anyone I've ever heard of, supports abortion.
Ever hear of George Tiller? He supported abortions. Any congressman or senator who claims to be pro choice supports abortions! I'm betting you support abortions, if there were not any supporters of abortions then there wouldn't be any abortions. Now, go ahead and play word games to make yourself feel better!
I'd give you the answer, but I don't speak Troll. You have no idea what you're talking about. It takes a real contortionist to equate support for choice with support for abortions.
What are the choices? Abortion and not having an abortion! You support the right to choose therefore you support abortion, its not that hard to figure out.
And yet you still can't. Maybe trying to maintain your triple identity leaves you with too little capacity to think through anything else.
I can't figure out how you claim not to support abortions!
Triple identity, who am I now?
TK,saboh and who?
Word Games? Did you say Word Games? (fell off my chair laughing)
Most people feel they don't have the right to dictate what a women does with her body. I don't support abortion. I feel I don't have the right to tell someone else they have to live their life according to my will, according to what I feel is the right way for them to go.
I wonder if Dr. Tiller had family that cared about him? Do you have family that cares about you? Do you really think you scored some points referring to a Murdered Man.
Give me a reason a woman would choose to do this! If it is done it has to be for the sake of the mothers' life. Has this procedure ever been done because the mother just changed her mind about having a baby, and decided to kill it rather than give it up for adoption? Is there an actual case you can point to?
my support ,Obama is a big lier,don't believe the bible,it is wrong if you abort the baby God never say that in the bible God said before the baby born he form in the womans womb ....
i know he supports it in cases where the mother's life is in danger but...
i don't know. my god.
i remember how very pregnant i was in the third trimester
which makes me wonder why when someone murders a pregnant woman they get charged for murdering the mother and her unborn baby...
Me too, Sambo...I almost wasn't. My grandmother forced my mother (who was underage at the time) to go to a state that allowed abortions (some places didn't allow them when I was born). Fortunately, my father came and stalled until it was so late in the term that the doctor refused. Whew!
YES, Obama DID support partial birth abortion when he was a senator. Look up his voting record. Wait - I did it for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 02197.html
"partial birth" is the most heinous phrase i could ever hear.
it actually hurts to think about it.
Because there is no such thing, medically speaking, you really don't have to think about it. Partial-birth abortion is a political term made up by people who think there should be less government, (except when a woman must make a difficult choice. Then of course we suddenly need much more government).
It was coined for much the same reason as the term "socialized medicine". It's meant to scare gullible people, and it works.
Must be nice to be on the government payroll
Which of these shows that he has supported partial birth abortion?
I'm not being sarcastic...maybe someone knows more about some of these issues than I do...it doesn't seem to me that any of these votes pertain specifically to it.
(thank you, Habee...this is from the first of your websites)
Voting Record (re: Abortion)
• Opposed born-alive treatment law because it was already law. (Oct 2008)
• Supports Roe v. Wade. (Jul 1998)
• Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
• Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)
• Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
• Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
• Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
• Sponsored bill providing contraceptives for low-income women. (May 2006)
• Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance. (Dec 2006)
• Ensure access to and funding for contraception. (Feb 2007)
Being pro-choice means that you support the right of the mother to choose in consultation with her doctor within the legal guidelines of Roe v Wade. I know a lot of pro-choice people - I don't know a single pro-abortion person.
The post itself deliberately distorted the position of the president.
I strongly endorse the right of any personto be pro-choice for herself and for her own body. It's extending that opinion to control other women that bothers me.
I strongly endorse the right to choose also...however, partial birth abortions bother me as well. It seems to me that perhaps a woman could make such a choice within six months, or else start looking at adoption or something. (ETA: as soon as possible...even six months seems like a long time...it IS such a sticky issue).
But the issue here is how Mr. Obama feels about it...It seems to me he's unwilling to limit the right to choose, which is not the same as endorsing late term abortions.
For the record, I oppose late-term ELECTIVE abortions. Many liberals do. However, no law can anticipate the medical circumstances that might make a late-term abortion preferable to - whatever the medical alternative is.
That's why in some states where late-term abortions are legal, the approval of a second doctor, unconnected with the doctor performing the procedure is required. This makes sense to me.
Some of the proposals are back-door prohibitions intended to get around Roe v Wade. That tactic I dislike and resent.
Spidie, look on that same page above the part you posted. Here's more:
1997: opposed bill preventing partial-birth abortion
In 1997, Obama voted in the Illinois Senate against SB 230, a bill designed to prevent partial-birth abortions.
Opposed legislation protecting born-alive failed abortions
Obama has consistently refused to support legislation that would define an infant who survives a late-term induced-labor abortion as a human being with the right to live. He insists that no restriction must ever be placed on the right of a mother to decide to abort her child.
On March 30, 2001, Obama was the only Illinois senator who rose to speak against a bill that would have protected babies who survived late term labor-induced abortion. Obama rose to object that if the bill passed, and a nine-month-old fetus survived a late-term labor-induced abortion was deemed to be a person who had a right to live, then the law would "forbid abortions to take place." Obama further explained the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment does not allow somebody to kill a child, so if the law deemed a child who survived a late-term labor-induced abortion had a right to live, "then this would be an anti-abortion statute."
Okay, I see that, Habee...but I think some of what he has to say might shed light on this issue. It appears to me that he thinks that this is NOT an issue for the federal gov't.
“On an issue like partial birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions. I have said so repeatedly. All I’ve said is we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother, and many of the bills that came before me didn’t have that.” –Obama
“I think that most Americans recognize that this is a profoundly difficult issue for the women and families who make these decisions. They don’t make them casually. And I trust women to make these decisions in conjunction with their doctors and their families and their clergy. And I think that’s where most Americans are. Now, when you describe a specific procedure that accounts for less than 1% of the abortions that take place, then naturally, people get concerned, and I think legitimately so. But the broader issue here is: Do women have the right to make these profoundly difficult decisions? And I trust them to do it.” --Obama
He did not vote to ban partial-birth abortions in 1997. The bill passed, 44-7, thank goodness. No thanks to Obama! There is no way Doug or anyone else can spin this. This was SB230. Obama voted "present," which is the same as a no vote. I'm glad 44 senators had the good sense to vote "yes."
I'm sorry, to me, partial birth, late term abortions are nothing more than murder. I don't see how anyone could do this. Some uneducated proponents claim, "Oh, it's not a baby - it's just a mass of cells." To that, I say these people are ignorant. Look at a 4-D ultrasound of a six or seven month fetus and say that!
A woman has plenty of time in the first trimester to get an abortion, before the fetus can feel pain and react to its surroundings.
I can see your point here, Habee, and I don't think anyone here is saying that this kind of abortion is a good idea. However, I can see a sort of "middle ground" option on the vote of "present." IF one believes that it is not an issue for the federal government (which Obama has pointed out), then I can I understand not participating. He's not opposing it (I can see how this kinda seems cowardly) BUT he is NOT supporting it. Perhaps he's saying that they really are not the ones with the say-so on that issue.
"I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old," he added. "I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby,"
I probably would have said it the other way around..."but if they make a mistake I wouldn't want a baby punished with them."
ETA: Not that I think that Mr. Obama's children are awful...but there IS such a thing as too young to raise a child, in my opinion.
""I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old," he added. "I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby,"
I remember when he said that. Forget about whether or not he's a US citizen, you have to wonder if anyone would say that who is a HUMAN BEING. What a disgrace.
She keeps threatening that it's not too late. I'm in my 150th trimester.
Dang, best laugh of the day yet! Of course, I just woke the figsters up, but never mind, I bet this will be on the top laugh list today!
So. No one here trusts a woman to make a choice about this on her own?
How many women do you think would just capriciously kill her third trimester baby for no good reason? And if she were the type of person who would, if not for that dastardly federal government passing laws, do we really want her raising children?
Women are in the best position of anyone to make decisions about their own bodies and their own lives. What if the boyfriend turns out to be a child abuser? What if the woman suddenly finds herself unemployed, single, and homeless?
I guess maybe if everyone who was against abortion would adopt 3-5 kids, then we wouldn't need abortion. Or maybe we could be a sane and caring society and provide support for single mothers with things like government provided daycare, education and job training for single moms, and real opportunities for the kids.
But that would be socialism, wouldn't it?
I posted earlier a quote in which Obama says just that; that he trusts a woman to choose. In a roundabout way, that's what I've been talking about with Habee - that Obama is not supporting partial-birth abortion, he is saying it's NOT the federal government's place to make that decision.
So William, if a woman already has a kid or two and loses her job and can't afford to care for them, should she kill them? I'm just following your line of thinking.
No she shouldn't - but how would you go about preventing it if she decided she had to?
My point is about individual choice. If a woman feels she needs to have a late term abortion, it's probably not something that she's just going to do 'like brushing her teeth'. Abortion as birth control is going to happen early on in most cases. Late term abortion would be a situation of medical necessity or some other serious life crisis (we hope).
I mean, there might be a few women out there who are just amoral and would just be lazy and wait to have an abortion like that, but 1. do you want that type of woman raising a child anyway and 2. do you really want to take the option away from all women because you are afraid of the rare case of a psychopath?
Following your line of reasoning, we should take all children away from any single woman who loses her job in case she kills them.
"How many women do you think would just capriciously kill her third trimester baby for no good reason?"
How many do you think would kill their infant children? Statistically few. Does that mean we shouldn't make it illegal to do so?
More government huh? Good for you - a socialist will always call for more laws, no matter how often they are needed even if it is statistically unlikely - I think you are right a new law and more law enforcement and government is a good idea.
Just in case. No matter how statistically few.
Spidie, one reason I feel so strongly about abortion is because so many teens use it as a form of birth control. I've had students who had already had 3 or 4 by the time they were high school seniors. To them, it was like brushing their teeth. Nothing to it. No big deal.
Even thought I find the practice abhorent unless the mother's life is endangered or in the case of rape or incest, I do not want to see Roe v Wade overturned. If it's ever overturned, women will still find a way to abort an unwanted fetus and endanger her own life in the process. Also, wealthy women will always find a way to have the procedure done safely, even if it were illegal, while poor women would be the ones getting the shoddy, dangerous abortions.
But there's just no excuse for a late term abortion, other than an extreme medical necessity. I'm all for filling up high school lockers with condoms!
Perhaps you've gotten the impression that I'm disagreeing with you across the board. I know exactly what you're talking about as far as how terrible it is to see teens use abortion as birth control (I used to be a social worker - I specialized in children and adolescents); so I've seen it too.
And believe me, I am NOT down with third trimester abortions. IF there is some medical problem, then I STILL think Mom should get to make the choice (perhaps the choice could include HER dying to save the baby, though, if that's what she wanted? Choice across the board?)
Like you, I am afraid of what would happen if Roe v Wade were overturned...we know how desperate people can get.
But there's something else going on here as well. When it comes to WHO should get to mandate abortions...I'm REALLY NOT down with government making/mandating that decision for me or anyone else. So, I think there's a sort of wedge in the middle of the issue here. No, I don't agree that people should have third trimester abortions BUT I don't think the federal government has the right to stick their noses in that decision. That's MY decision, YOUR decision, HER decision. NOT THEIRS.
I have tried, as much as possible, to stick with the topic thread, though...which is how Obama feels about it. I can't say that the evidence says he's out there supporting third trimester abortions. It seems to me that he'd really rather palm the issue off on the individual/woman, which as far as I'm concerned is the way to go.
William, as for the government daycare, education, and job training, I've long been a proponent of those!
Personally, I believe Obama to be weak. His voting records show that he has no real backbone. Though it may seem on the surface that he does favor late term abortions, it also seems tnhat he does not. I believe because he hasn't stated what he actually favors makes him too wishy washy, if you know what I mean.
According to the voting record posted previously in the thread, it would seem that Obama is pretty solidly in the "pro-choice" camp. This, it would appear to me at least, includes the question even of third-trimester abortions. While he has said that states can "properly limit" them (once again pointing out that this is NOT a federal gov't issue), I'm assuming that here he means the states can decide to make them available only when medically necessary, and determine who can define "medically necessary." Otherwise, it seems quite clear to me that Obama thinks the woman pondering the abortion should be able to make that decision herself and have access to the appropriate medical facilities should she choose to abort. IMO, anyway.
This is such a difficult ethical issue, and its intersection with politics is far more convoluted than you might think.
First, different religions, and different sects within religions, have different definitions of when life begins. For example, in Judaism, a fetus becomes a person at birth (technically when its arms or legs emerge). In Christianity, there is no formal definition of the beginning of life. The Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church (Russia, Greece, etc) say life begins at conception. Protestants have different definitions. I was stunned to read that, before 1980, the Baptists were pro-choice, arguing that a restriction on abortion curtailed personal autonomy. I believe they have made a 180-degree turn and are now fiercely pro-life...all in a span of about 30 years.
I am uncomfortable, though, with men voting to restrict abortion, since they will never have to sacrifice their personal liberty to fulfill a biological "duty." I would even support a national referendum on abortion...provided only women voted on it. Only women could decide whether aborting a fetus, and at what stage, would be allowed with respect to their own loss of personal autonomy. Since a female-only vote is untenable, I support no restrictions on abortion and leave it up to women to make a decision they can live with.
Very well said, livelonger. I like the idea of a woman's consortium...however, it does raise the question, for me anyway, of where a father should stand in the making of this decision. Although the mother carries the child...it really is a part of him as well.
As you said, it's a very difficult issue.
It's nice to see you here, though. Look how nicely we're all behaving...even with such an explosive issue! Why, we've all gone hours without insults, or childish forum games! There's evidence...civility...thoughtfulness...wow.
Ain't it grand?? We can all debate and still be friends. Love it!!
LOL Bite me! We like our peaceful atmosphere.
Shoo, serpent! Be gone! We don't need no steenkin' snake to stir things up!
Agreed. And this is a fiercely contentious issue, with good reason.
I do think a pregnant woman should consult with "stakeholders" and trusted advisors - the father if available, loved ones, close friends, religious advisors if she is religious, etc. I am all for people making fully informed, well thought-out decisions. Like Doug said, no one is really "pro-abortion". Abortions are always unfortunate, but they should be left to the pregnant woman to ultimately make the decision.
I do support full education and access to contraception, which, I'm guessing from this thread so far, no one here would disagree with. Knowledge is a critical part of making an informed decision, and we can all hope abortions are used as contraception as rarely as possible.
Yes, beautifully written. I concur.
Now, we (here in this forum thread) need to take our intelligent, civil, and opinionated selves to Washington and show them how it's done.
What I don't understand is people who want Roe v Wade overturned yet don't want teens to have access to contraceptives. Is this crazy or what?? I know these kids. They are gonna have sex!
I really, really don't get that, either. "Abstinence only" programs have been shown to be utterly ineffective.
And if you believe sperm and eggs are wasted if they're not used to create new life, then I would assume you would want a woman to have as many children as is biologically possible for her (20+?). If that isn't a definition of fascism, I don't know what is.
Spidie, if I read your posts correctly, you said Obama didn't vote on the late-term abortion issue because he felt it was a state issue and not a federal one. Obama was a state senator in 1997 - not a US senator.
I wrote this forum post before work - home for lunch break to find heaps of replies! I see info has been put up about the vote etc... however I'd just like to say this....
If women do want to abort in third trimester, why can't that baby be given up for adoption without them having to worry about the details? In some cases, babies that could have lived if cared for as preemies are killed or allowed to die at birth. Thousands of childless parents would love to adopt one of these children.
I just find it ironic that a 22 week old baby has somehow survived because it was 'wanted' while a 26 week old baby is allowed to die because it wasn't...
The fact is that ABORTION is murder of a human life. If you believe in a god you would know that god creates children. Is that a true statement?
During the presidential campaign candidate Barack Obama was asked '' when does life begin, at conception or ?????? ''
Obama answered '' that question is above my pay scale ''
In other words the future president failed to commit an answer to a very important position.
Barak Obama’s position in the matter is clear if you research his voting records in Washington and Illinois.
Robe-wade is the law of the land as decided by the supreme court.
There are many reasons for having an abortion. For one to decide to have an abortion, the decision is in most cases to go forward is a stressful and a psychological event in ones life.
We are all born to die sometime in the future. How we live the life that our god has given us ,will be ours to decide and answer for in the end.
Hate to remind you, but murder is murder too.
So, if you're going to throw a woman in prison for abortion, you're going to have to throw military people in there too....or should it be just the leaders who sent them into war?
Certainly if you charge a doctor with murder for providing an abortion, you must charge a soldier with murder for killing a real living human being?
Oh let me guess....war is an accepted form of murder, your religion condones it, and since men engage in it, it's all right.
Or is it sometimes necessary? Just like abortion. Nice you give yourselves that leeway huh?
You don't like abortion? Don't have one!
But what can you do when you don't like war?
Going by that line of reasoning why you care about god's action ? If he can create millions there is no need to think about abortions. If we fail to save our species then god can start from scratch right ? or he lost his human making skills such that he's asking us to stop abortion ?
<-- will be content to sit this forum topic out and wait for a less intense one.. like capital punishment
William R Wilson said
"Women are in the best position of anyone to make decisions about their own bodies and their own lives. What if the boyfriend turns out to be a child abuser? What if the woman suddenly finds herself unemployed, single, and homeless?"
"I guess maybe if everyone who was against abortion would adopt 3-5 kids, then we wouldn't need abortion. Or maybe we could be a sane and caring society and provide support for single mothers with things like government provided daycare, education and job training for single moms, and real opportunities for the kids."
Leave the boyfriend!
unemployed, single, and homeless, there are plenty of services that help Women in this situation!
Some people do adopt 3-5 kids sometimes they adopt more than 20 kids.
All of those "sane" ideas exist right now, so....
What business is it of yours?
Who tells you who to have sex with or how to raise your kids?
Butt out, it's not your business.
Once upon a time a doctor was encourageing a young mother to give up the baby or they would both die. "Abortion is the only option!" he declared.
Well were both alive and healthy, and if I ever saw that man I would punch him in the face as hard as I could. Eighty years old or not he would get a straight shot to the grill.
President Obama managed to avoid a full-scale eruption over abortion politics with his first Supreme Court nominee, but he probably won't get that lucky twice.
obama is a butt kisser . a jive talking people pleaser. its not a mans choice its a woman's choice . and as a man that should enrage him. it sure does me.
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