I am a former U.S Marine that served during Sept 11, 2001. I feel that kids today have it easy and should get a taste of what real civil service work is like. I think this country would be better off making civil service jobs like police, fire fighter and military be a requirement instead of a volunteer basis. I find it very discouraging when young people today bash these hard working individuals without even knowing what it takes to do the job. By making a requirement the kids will be taught discipline, work ethic and teamwork. Plus I think it would keep our country more secure considering the Chinese military has so many people in theirs that it is approx the same number as our entire U.S population. So tell me what do you think
As much as I agree with you that kids today have it too easy and lack the strength that discipline can offer, I feel there are some major flaws to this plan.
First: Isn't it their parents that are the source of their lack of discipline? I mean, most kids don't just turn out this way over night on their own accord.
Second: Does FREEDOM not include the freedom to misuse your freedom? Making civil service (in any form), regardless of the benefits, takes away freedom. Yes they are necessary jobs that deserve respect. However, REQUIRING anyone do anything is a form of slavery.
Third: Is it not the job of parents to make sure their kids have it better then they did? Granted, I think that is taken too far these days in a lot of ways - they wouldn't have it so easy if the generations before them didn't fight to make our nation that way.
Fourth: My father would agree with you in a sense. He feels that because other nations have required civil service, that we should to. I feel this is the opposite of a good attitude. We don't have mandatory civil service because we are not like other nations, and I don't feel we should start being that way.
I agree that some change needs to be created to help our kids learn respect, self-discipline and motivation. I just feel it should start at the root of the problem - adults in the kids lives - and go from there.
I do see your point about it being the parents that have caused kids to day to be the way they are but how do you change parents. Yes are freedom is free and I think that is awesome. However it is getting harder and harder to get young people to volunteer so what happens when we don't have enough brave men and women to do it, enact the draft or make it a requirement? I know if it wasn't for the USMC I would have never gotten the money to go to college plus finish.
Thank you, "Once a Marine...Always a Marine" for your service.
"Freedom has a taste, and for those who have fought for it, the taste is so sweet the protected will never know ..."
America's volunteer fighting forces are a breed apart from what most civilians can comprehend...I doubt that everyone could make it in most civil services...even if they wanted to. It takes a rare breed...and Thank God...there are plenty who do volunteer!
My husband is also a marine, served in the 80's and 90's. He has been in law enforcement ever since, as it's a nice fit for someone who's used to carrying a weapon and wearing a uniform I guess. He talks about this subject sometimes and has the same idea you have. I have to disagree though, even though I wish it could work. I just don't think that we can have that sort of system here because of the way we're set up.
Americans aren't forced to serve, and especially shouldn't be as a punishment for some crime (as I guess has happened on occasion). We have the best military in the world because it's all volunteer, and the same applies to our police and fire departments. Some may disagree, liberals mostly, but we really do have it better than most in the world in those respects.
I agree that today's youth has very little respect, and they do seem disgustingly spoiled and coddled. But it's not the military's job to turn bad kids into great adults. It's their parents' job, and if they don't do it then we all just have to deal with those fools as they come into our lives. But rest assured, the ones who are completely dependent on their parents at the age of 35, or who get through life by scheming and conning others, those aren't the people who will be running our country in the future.
There are some good kids out there, and they're the ones who will succeed and we'll have to give their parents the credit when they do. Some will be cops, or marines, and some may be there for the next 9/11, but they'll be there by choice.
I disagree with the idea of mandatory civil service.
If someone gets in trouble, then yeah...make them do some civil service, but the government shouldn't be forcing individuals who stay out of trouble and try to live their life to do any sort of service. The government's place is not to dictate your life, how you live, and what you should do. The government's place is to maintain order in society, defend citizens, and ensure that justice is carried out.
Yes, there is a lot of disrespect, but what has changed? Civil service was not a requirement, so that is not what caused the disrespect. I think we should focus on the cause of the disrespect and not think of more ways for the government to intervene in our lives.
The way i see the disrespect started back in the 60's during the Vietnam war so if you know of a way to change the last 40 years or so please do tell. Yes the discipline should fall on the parents but we need to break the cycle somewhere so we have better future.
Bulldog, first: Semper Fi!
Now, civil service mandates for kids... that is a touchy subject. I am all for the military, it helps to build (in some) a sense of proper direction and responsibility. However not everyone is suited for this kind of public service.
I'm afraid that if some mandate like this does come to fruition that there will be members of society's leadership who will take advantage of the mandate to create their own little armies of lemming followers who would rather take your home than defend it.
The Chinese used to, not sure if they still do, made all young men join the military for a time. I believe the Nazi soldiers did the same. Not that the USA is like China or Nazi Germany, but power like that, to mandate civilians into service, could be used for evil purposes.
I'm not sure that this country would be able to handle that.
Now, parents who mandate their children join a civilian service organization is another thing: I have 3 Marines and a Sailor in my children. They took responsibility for their own choices, influenced by their mother's choice in 1979.
Good concept, but I think there is room for abuse.
I could definitely see how it could be abused because some people like power. Obviously not everyone can be a Marine like me but I think making them try it out is at least a start. I'm not sure if other countries have different branches like this one does so if it mandatory then at least they can choose which one to join. Plus there is police, fire fighting, Ameri corps and the Peace Corps to. I think young people are afraid to join civil service jobs because of the bad stigma they get. Even in schools they emphasize go to college but forget what a great opportunity the civil service can be. The military paid for my college otherwise I would have never gone.
Bulldogrocks: I did not spell it out well. I am, and always will be a Marine.
Not sure if you caught that from the "Semper Fi" at the beginning, or the "influenced by their mother's choice in 1979" at the end of my reply. You know sure enough that being a Marine is more than a job, it's a mindset.
As for the police: Many police forces require a Bachelor's degree before even applying. Not all, but lots of the major cities. I know Houston requires it.
The military did NOT pay for my college. I'm stuck paying for mine on my own, and I'm in doctoral school. That is a lot of pennies to save! I'm glad that they are taking care of you!
Just sayin' LOL. Once again: SEMPER FIDELIS.
Nothing like forcing children to do what they hate instead of having them do other things that would serve society better!
Slavery isn't a solution for society problems.
Yeah Evan, how would you fancy some grudge ridden kid not rescuing you from a burning building?
It wouldn't do much for me.
I think that was an attempt at sarcasm, correct?
If you force people to do things, they're going to do it badly. Or, at least less than optimally.
All work is a voluntary act, and forcing people to do the work means that they do actually WANT to do it.
"Hey, remember how I hate this job? Now they're making me run into a burning house to rescue some guy I've never met!... instead of doing that, I'll find a way around it", will be the thought going through people's minds on the way to the fire.
SEMPER FI You made us proud
J & E you are both so wrong
I know a street gang kid from NY, he started at 8 years old.. He was in and out of Juvy hall. He graduated to being a gambling runner for a bookie and moved up to collections for the Columbo family. He was involved in many other crimes, no of them drug related all before 16. As he was turning 18, his Juvy officer challenged his street smarts and convinced him to take the written test for FDNY. He passed and was called for the Phyisical agility test. He was not going but his Juvy officer once more challenged his manhood telling him he was not man enough to complete the test. He went and passed. 50,000 took the test, he finished in the top 2,000. He was called to probie school and was not going. Once again his Juvy officer challenged his manhood. He went. Upon completeion the Juvy officer had him assigned to the busiest engine in NYC. They answer 3,000 alarms per year, During his career he was promoted to LT and was asked to go higher in rank, but he refused. He earned 9 medals of honor, 2 medals of valor. He never once thought "I need to find a way around it". He has many scars all over his body and would never give one back. He was there on 911 and did his job. He never once looked for anything for doing his job. He now has a trach in his throat in order to breath due to all the damage to his lungs. He stood up to the Government new law that all 911 peosonal have to give personal info on themselves and all family members, be checked by terror watch list personal. For refusing as in specifies in the bill, he now has lost all health care benifits and will be billed for all health care given in the past related to this. Despite it all, he would do it all again. That person is me. You have no clue what the fire service or any of the other services do to you. It is a brotherhood you can never understand. All of us are willing to die at any secons for total strangers. Are you? So do not knock what a civil service job can do for a young man lost in life
American view congrats on turning your life around. I never had a rough life like that thank God. But I always remember being lost as to what I wanted to do until I joined JROTC in high school and then it just fit. After I graduated I joined without a second thought and I think it has made me a better person because of it. It definitely gives gives you a different perspective on what freedom means and how we got it. If it wasn't for the USMC I would have never meet my husband, or paid for college.
Let me thank you again for your service during 9 11 and I give you the best wishes.
One that is exceptional shows a rule can work
Your story isn't even an exception. The kid voluntarily became a fire fighter.
Sure the Juvy officer made fun of him, but it was still a voluntary choice.
... so... you just proved MY point, and failed to support the OP's position.
One more time: Your story proved MY point.
You can never admit you are wrong. WOW wish we were all as perfect as you. Once more, the kid did not do it voluntarily. and why do I know this, well you would know to if you took the time to read or even comprehend.. THAT KID WAS ME !!!!!!!!!!!! Try again Evan
Not that I agree with J & E, but you *did* volunteer, right? <grin>
However, I've done my share of volunteering, too. It did not change me much, though. I kind of lived a militaristic life as a child where I did all kinds of crap that I did not even want to do, had to follow instructions and orders and do without for the betterment of my tiny society (the family unit).
I took that as a test and ran with it. After joining the Marines, it was clearly a good fit for me, I was already good at doing what was expected without being told. Unfortunately you and I are from a breed of dying members of society, those who believe that it is a good idea to help out, to serve, and to do what you have to because it is the right thing to do.
Thinking of others has severely declined in the past 30 years. I even did an assignment on that. Kids in college today are 40% less likely to feel empathy for their fellow man than in 1979. Pretty sad, huh?
My argument was "civil service should be only for those who volunteer for it"!! Then his argument was "the kid volunteered for it"...
Also, I don't really care which kid it was nor who it was - the individual in your story (you) VOLUNTEERED to do the service, and thus my argument remains valid: Civil Service should not be forced on the unwilling.
Evan, Just in case you did not notice, I was agreeing with you.
Volunteering makes the best of anything. If I am forced to do something I only do a slip-shod job of it... making someone do something they would be unlikely to do for themselves is a recipe for disaster...
So all the unexceptional and uncommitted can be forgotten?
Don't fall into the trap of judging everybody by yourself.
Twisting as always. THats what you said. That was not my point, I gave you the example of me to show you that your statement against civil service was inaccurate. I was forced into it and for me it was a life changer. I totaly grew up form the experience. Now is it for everyone, no. But I have seen it work many times. Remember, nothing is perfect
Did you notice how, in AV's story, the kid VOLUNTARILY tried to be a fire fighter?
See how Evan comments and knows not what he says
Dude, how can you not read English:
"YOU VOLUNTEERED FOR THE SERVICE, AND THUS YOU DIDN'T COUNTER MY ARGUMENT"
The juvy officer said "hey, you're a female if you don't try out for the FD!"
Instead of replying: "F you, I don't need your FD", you said "I'm mui macho! I'll take the test"
That's the definition of volunteering.
AV: if you can't admit this small fact, then I'll never bother discussing with you again. There's simply no way that you can claim that you countered my argument. No way, whatsoever.
Do you not find it odd that others can see I did not volunteer and you cannot? Quite simply, you just spew stuff and when you are wrong you just cannot admit it. . I went down this road before with you, you just cannot man up. Funny you welcome my input when I agree with you, but make accusations at me when I do not. Maybe hubpages is not for you.
actually, the only people to comment on whether you volunteered or not JohnHolden and Kateperez.
Here's Kate's quote:
"Not that I agree with J & E, but you *did* volunteer, right? <grin>"
And here's john's:
"You're wasting your breath man, he volunteered ..."
so, it looks like the readers of the forum agree with me.
You're a brick wall, and logic bounces off of you no matter how hard it is thrown towards you.
Enjoy a life free of logic.
Well you are consistantly wrong if nothing else
kateperez--Sorry you did not understand her comment "GRIN" SARCASIM
Mandrake-If someone gets in trouble, then yeah...make them do some civil service..... Seems like I said that by using me as an example
Get over it Evan
Unless you were there, you should not comment on someones life.
If you don't want people commenting on your life, then don't share stories about it, her der.
Your story fails to prove us wrong.
OP: "Everyone should be forced into 'civil service' (to be defined later)."
Me and J: "...No, people should only endeavor into things they voluntarily choose to do..."
AV: "NUH UH! SOME KID I KNOW WAS GOOD IN CIVIL SERVICE! HE WASN'T EVEN FORCED TO DO IT AT ALL!!!!"
... So, I hope that this sheds light on the issue.
NUH UH??? Are you kidding? What an intelligent answer. Well that really sums it up, don't you think?
I think there should be more civil service job opportunities but it should never be mandatory. I would much rather have someone who volunteered for the position and accepted the responsibilities doing the job than someone that was forced into the position.
I respect your question, and feel that you mean well for the country, but, as an implemented program, I see the government abusing it, as they have done with things like workfare, and forcing people on welfare to go to pointless classes in return for receiving their grants. Or, forced to pick up trash on the highways and clean the parks, taking paying jobs away from people who do that stuff for a living. They also might use it as a tool to force some of those kids to move on to the military.
One of my friends is from a former communist country, and high school aged men either went to trade school or went into the military. He ended up going to trade school, and, through his trade school they actually worked building apartments which was a job that he was assigned to do, and they expected him to continue in that kind of work when his trade school time was finished. Which in his country was a good thing, because they started training people so young, that they knew their trade well by the time they graduated from trade school.
That might sound great, but you know if they did that in the US, American corporations would exploit that labor to the max, and have the trade school kids, and your well groomed and mannered kids working through their civil service training, and then not hire them to work when the training is finished, they would just keep getting fresh employees from the schools, and whatever civil service programs come out of it.
They did try that kind of thing, and it didn't work. All the people did who went to those programs felt used, and had no desire to continue to work when their time was done. And, a majority of the people in those programs quit. Not only that, but working people also saw the civil service bunch as job killers. As most worked for government money, and the companies that worked with the services started firing all their salaried workers and taking the service workers for free.
Also, there are things in this country called military school. Some parents send their kids there hoping they will turn out their child as a decent human being. While other kids that go there are sent by the court to straighten them out, and some bounce from one school to another. So, the type of thing you are talking about doesn't work for everyone.
And, I would think that if America did roll out this type of service to everyone, it would be like the military, and happen very quickly, and probably see a lot of hostility from kids who have had way too much fun being spoiled brats. Also, I have heard that some of the kids who go to those special schools end up believing they are gods gift to the world and everyone else is scrap.
I'm not going to get all hypothetical, I'm going to look at reality. South Korea, Germany, they have mandatory service and the results are extraordinary. America would certainly benefit. Even if it were just some watered-down thing like Junior ROTC, Civil Air Patrol, Forest Ranger Reserve, anything that would put them through some sort of disciplined basic training would be a big step in the right direction.
I would rather get my firefighting, law enforcement etc from people that *want* to be doing the job.
I agree, but I did not know I wanted to do that untill I was forced into it. Once I was there I found a calling that I loved to do. I guess that is my point. If I was not forced into it, I wonder what I would have done. Maybe like my brother who just sits at home and complains about everything. Maybe if he was forced into something, his life would be better. I knew many who "wanted" to be there and once there realized they could not handle it.
You weren't forced into it: you were led by your juvy officer to do the job.
You could have said "no, screw that", but instead, you said "yeah, ok, i'll give it a shot".
You're wasting your breath man, he volunteered and therefore that proves that conscripted men will be marvellous!
I wonder why the UK army is dead set against conscription? It couldn't be because they realise that those who don't want to be there will bring the whole edifice tumbling down?
Sure glad you both know so much about my life that you can make such ignorant comments. How freakin cluless are you too. Were you there? actually niether of you could have handled how I grew up. Pansies were not allowed. Go live in your rose colored world and continue to think you both are experts. The rest of us will continue to laugh at your clueless replies.
If you don't want people commenting on your life's history, then keep it to yourself.
You volunteered, according to the story you shared.
Logic fails to make an impact on your brain. I now realize the futility in discussing anything with you.
Wow you are the man. Like you would back in 1977 look a NY State Juvy officer in the face and say "Scew That". I got $50 you would not have the stones to even look him in the eyes.
You still could have refused.
And, to cut off the future head that will rear itself in this argument: Your situation was that of a criminal who was being forced by the law (even though this statement is false). Your story still fails to meet the criteria that all people should be forced to civil service no matter their situation.
Sorry, but logic is on my side.
The only response you will ever see from me again will be "you volunteered"
I was drafted and had to go into the military. Was great for me, one of the best experiences of my life. But that was peace time. Always thought that basic training would be good for everyone. One thing it teaches is you have to get along with everyone, no matter how much you
might hate them, and you get to know for real those who were formerly stereotypes.
Here's a fantastic article explaining why things like "forced volunteer work" and just "regular volunteer work" are not all that they're cracked up to be.
Before you get pissed off, remember, the author isn't AGAINST volunteering (he is a Christian), he is just pointing out the issues regarding volunteering.
http://mises.org/daily/5469/Nelson-Mand … lunteerism
Look, I never get pissed, I just lash back at those who lash first. I read the article and do not disagree with any of it. It talks of Voluteering. But thats not what we are talking about. He uses examples like helping hiv patients. Or a paid waitress at the local Cracker Barrel that took a job. Those are good examples of chioce. But the thread was about Civil service being a mandatory service. That Is what bulldog was talking about. I agree with him. I admit, not everyone will like it, Hell I was no happy about it. But in the end I is part of what changed me. KNOL said something similar in his post. In NY only NYC has a paid fire department. The rest are volunteer. I loved my job so much I volunteered in the town I lived in Centereach NY Engine Company 3. Now that one I did by choice.
I appreciate the link trying to explain your side. I guess you do not see the difference of choice as opposed to no choice. My juvy officer may have taunted me to motivate me to show himup. but at no time did I have a choice not to do it. Matbe I did not do a good job explining it better. Anyway I hope we understand each other better
"In NY only NYC has a paid fire department. The rest are volunteer."
Just in case anyone was thinking about a paid career in a NY fire department and just had their dreams crushed, this is not true. Although many small towns in NY have volunteer fire departments, there are many others that are not.
In case, FDNY Is the only full time paid firedepartment All departments on Long Island are volunteer. Majority of upstate departments, say 90+% are all volunteer. The rest are a combination of Paid and volunteer. Is that clearer for you DB. I guess you are going to be a baby now because you could not read a link I gave you. THought you were better than that but I see not.
We both happen to be on here on the forums at the same time, no need to take it personally. I did read the link you gave me, and it contradicted a major point you made, and you still haven't responded to that. Is there a direct source for your "30 out of 38 bills" stat, or did you make it up?
At least 90% of upstate is small towns, so I would guess they are mostly volunteer. But there are plenty of paid full-time firemen in the larger cities, including Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse and many smaller cities like Norwich. You will find some part-time positions and volunteers at some of these fire departments, but that's not really the same as the volunteer departments you'll find in the really small towns in upstate. It may seem like semantics, but it's a big deal in town budget meetings.
My best friend left my Engine Company in FDNY to take a job in Albany. FD. His wife worked for Al DematoNY State Senator It is not a full time paid department, it has many volunteers. Now I cannot swear with 100% accuracy the others you mentioned are 100% paid but I would think If Albany, NY state Capital is not 100% paid I would think the others are not either. And you are right, it is all about budgets.Right now my old union is fighting House closings over budget issues. I use to be on a FD racing team and only volunteer Departments can partisipate. Alot of department from upstate would come down and drill.
As for the other question, I never gave a statement that was contradicted. I told you you were right about SPONSORED bills, but there are authored and Co-sponcers on bills. The info was there for me. Thats why I quoted it. In fact, I believe I cut and pasted all that info. It was there on a link to the summary page I think it was called. Again, why would I give you the source to check if I made it up Please i am not like these other knuckleheads that just make stuff up and give no sources. I even said I was sorry to you up front before I started to rant on you and I even said it was not aimed at you. Prime example, I told my story about myself here in this thread, and I have 2 people trying to say how I acted, hoe I felt. One even calles me a liar. So that is why I am tired of dealing with idiots like that. And its not the first time with these 2. One in particular kept making rediculas statements, but everytime I came back with facts I looked up, he went a different route and started the name calling. I have no agenda here. I try to stay neutral and just post facts for both sides I can do it on 95% and have no problems, but the other 5% try my patience
My main reason for commenting on this post is because both of my brothers served in the military. My brother Dennis was stationed in Germany as a cop with the Air Force, and my brother Charlie was in the Army stationed at Fort Knox.
My brother Dennis was already smart when he went in, and even smarter when he discharged. And, the only reason he discharged was so that he could come back to the US, and get a job with the police here. Imagine his surprise when he was told that his military training was worthless, and he would have to go to the Michigan Police academy for four years just to get a starting position. 6 years of working with the german police meant nothing. Now he lives with my mom, unemployed with Brain cancer, probably related to his military service.
My brother charlie came out of the army pissed off at the world. he already had a temper, but, now he knows how to use it to break things, like kicking down doors and walls, and, keeping a neat and tidy space is not his strong point. So, the military has different effects on different people. It doesn't matter if they were a volunteer or not.
The only reason my brother Charlie volunteered to go into the army, was because he knew that it done deal, and he would have a paying job, and a roof over his head. He liked being in the army, but, not everything about it, and was discharged after being in for only a year. Some disagreement with an officer.
I would have never volunteered for either. I just don't agree with the idea of killing people in the name of any government as being logical or necessary. The days of the kings and ruling the world should have come and gone a long time ago.
First off I am sorry that your brothers are having a hard time since they have been out but I feel the pros outweigh the cons. I think it depends on the person and no not every person handle the riggers of military service. Also I think you should re- read my post because I said civil service in general not just military. Civil service is military, fire fighting, police, Ameri corps, Peace corps and many others so one can pick the one that fits them the most. I never said it should assigned by the government just a requirement to serve the country. You may not like the idea of killing people for the government but the killing in wars is the reason why you have the freedoms you do now.
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