Canada Appeals Court Approves Post Birth Abortion!

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   lady_love158posted 12 years ago

   http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ … tence.html
   
   Only in Canada can you go to jail for hate speech but not get punished at all for strangling your baby with your underwear and throwing him over a fence! What a country! The libs here would love this!

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      With that little bit of information, I don't see how one could second guess the court's decision. The woman's act was heinous, but it sounds as if there were psychological issues. Her punishment will be far worse than any court could mete out. She'll have to live with the knowledge of what she did for the rest of her life.
      
      I feel as sorry for her as I am horrified by her actions.

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   TMMasonposted 12 years ago

   "Naturally, Canadians are grieved by an infant's death, especially at the hands of the infant's mother, but Canadians also grieve for the mother."
   
   The victim is the child... these libtards just do not get it.
   
   Sad sad sorry world we live in.

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      John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      She still got three years for it, suspended it maybe, but that isn't the same as a not guilty verdict or not getting punished at all! It will hang over her for the rest of her life.
      As usual Lady Love is failing to actually read what she posts.

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         TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         "Two years ago, for the second time, a jury found Effert guilty of second-degree murder, but last May the province's highest court decided the jury made a mistake.
         
         In a rare move, the Alberta Court of Appeal overturned the conviction, replacing it with the lesser one of infanticide."
         
         That would have been appropriate, John.
         
         I think the 24? canadians had it right and more accurately reflect the feelings of Canadians, than that Judge.

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         lady_love158posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         "Two years ago, for the second time, a jury found Effert guilty of second-degree murder, but last May the province's highest court decided the jury made a mistake. In a rare move, the Alberta Court of Appeal overturned the conviction, replacing it with the lesser one of infanticide."
         
         Soo 2 courts convicted her and the court overturned it!! They don't even want her to serve th 16 days for littering when she threw his body over the fence because it would be "mean"!!!
         
         This is just unbelievable!!

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            John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            What would you have them do? Shove bamboo under her nails?

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               Disturbiaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Sure why not, it's not nearly as fatal as strangulation.  At the very least, she should be serving prison time for the murder of her child!

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                  John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I think none of us know enough from the piece published to formulate a valid opinion.
                  
                  The article gives only the bare facts, mother killed child, nothing about her mental state or anything else needed to come to any conclusion.
                  
                  She may be evil and worthy of all our contempt or she may be little more than a frightened child herself.

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                  habeeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Agreed. Or either she should be in a psychiatric ward.

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               lady_love158posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               So is it the socialist position to decriminalize murder? Or is there a legal age for killing under socialism?

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                  John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, hardly decriminalising, she still got a prison sentence didn't she?
                  OK, it was suspended, which I believe means that if she comes to the attention of the law again that suspension can be set aside and she sent to prison.
                  
                  As I said to Disturbia, we don't really know enough to form an opinion.

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                     lady_love158posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Maybe you don't but I do! Walking free for murder after being convicted twice by 2 different juries in 2 different trials doesn't seem like justic especially when you can get jail time for hate speech!

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                        John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        If a court can make a mistake once, why not twice?

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                     Disturbiaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Well I'll give you that.  I keep thinking there must be something here that I'm missing.  What kind of enviornment did this girl live in that would drive her to do such a terrible thing?  I can't even imagine that kind of desperation, but still to kill your own child is just beyond my understanding.  I'm a mother and my natural instinct is to protect my children at the risk of my own safety and life. I find this whole situation just more than I can stomach.

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                     Ralph Deedsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     "As I said to Disturbia, we don't really know enough to form an opinion."
                     
                     That doesn't seem to slow anybody down.

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               Evan G Rogersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               What in the flaming hell am I reading from you John? The crazy psycho murdered her child!! There's nothing to defend! She should be in jail for a life sentence!
               
               A three year sentence for murdering someone? That's ludicrous!
               
               And before you even start up with the "Well in an Anarchist's world...", courts would DEFINITELY punish this in an anarchist world with MUCH more than a 3 year punishment.

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                  John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  That's why I'm glad that I'm neither a Christian or an anarchist.
                  
                  I don't have to fill my heart with hatred, instead I can put myself in others shoes and exercise compassion.
                  
                  Have you no inkling of how traumatic childbirth can be for some women, in some cases literally driving them out of their minds and causing them to act in a manner that they would not otherwise contemplate?
                  
                  How would a much longer sentence serve justice?

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                     MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Tell me about your birth story John...  It must have been terrible.  If you aren't a women please don't tell someone ELSE that they don't know what childbirth is like.

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                     TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     The mercy is in allowing her to continue to breath while serving out her life sentence.

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                  kerrygposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Are you familiar with the concept of post-partum depression? Trust me, it's no picnic, and my case was moderate at worst.
                  
                  It doesn't seem to me the article contains enough detail to determine whether this woman is evil or merely sick.

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   MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago

   Read the article and the thread... still not sure what it has to do with abortion...

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      Disturbiaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Well I guess the idea is "post-birth" abortion, whereby the child is destroyed after the birth process, which really makes no sense at all if you think about it.

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         lady_love158posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Exactly! Since in Canada abortion is no problem! So why wait to give birth and then murder the child when she could gave legally murdered him before he was born?

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            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            So the case had absolutely nothing to do with abortion... thank you, that's all you had to say.

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               lady_love158posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Only that abortion is murder. You're welcome!

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                  Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, there it is.

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                     MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Good to know... I shall stop birth control right now and pop them out like pez from this point forward... Imagine the millions of innocent children my cruelty has slaughtered.  I thought hubby was complaining for other reasons.

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                        Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Good for you!
                        
                        Ev er y sperm is saaaacred...
                        
                        Ev er y sperm is gooooooood...

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                           MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Figuring my age, I'm guessing I can get in at least 11 or so before menopause pulls me out of the gene pool... A nice round 15 is a good number...  I'm going to have John be my labor coach too.  Considering I will likely go completely out of my mind.  And since I am a liberal, could someone have some duct tape and a dumpster handy....

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               TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Abortion came into it because the Judge based her arguments to justify her ruling on Canada's lack of Abortion laws, seeming to speak to her of the canadians willingness to accept the stress of motherhood as a good reason for mothers murdering their babies to be allowed.
               
               I am glad my mother did not know that...

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                  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Orrrrrrr.... a horrible tragedy is being used as a political tool for something completely non-related.  Hmmm...
                  
                  So I assume that all cases where parents kill their children are now abortion cases...  Good to know.

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                     TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Maybe in Canada Mellissa... I don't know. I am not to keen on her legal mind using Abortion as a basis for rendering a legal opinion like this.
                     
                     And I do consider Abortion murder.
                     
                     But Abortion explicitly connotes aborting/ceasing a process or precedure... not taking the life of a child which is fully delivered and breathing on its own.
                     
                     Two different things... the later is murder.
                     
                     EDIT; Sorry Mellissa wasn't checking was rushing.

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                        MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Thank you for agreeing with my original statement that this is not an abortion case, so it was manipulative to name the thread post birth abortion...
                        
                        Edit: Sokay TM, it was actually just a little joke, no mean-spiritedness meant.

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                           TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           No I do not agree that the thread topic is manipulative.
                           
                           I agree that the judge's line of reasoning and using abortion is flawed , and was just pointing out to you where it came into play.
                           
                           The thread title sort of sums up the judges ruling.

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                        John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Recently a man was robbed in his shop.In defending himself he killed one of the robbers.
                        He wasn't prosecuted. I suppose you think he should have been, or is that level of stress allowable where a greater level of stress on a mother isn't?

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                           MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Seriously John, stop.
                           
                           I gave birth to four children with a total birth weight of a little over 27 lbs. (and a combined labor time of over 6 days)  I did it with no pain medication at all.  I might have been momentarily tempted to castrate my mate, but murder-especially of my child- was not really a consideration.
                           
                           Whatever psychological issues might have existed (and I am sure there were some) please don't demean women by suggesting that the process of childbirth somehow drives women into murderous insanity.  We have evolved past the point of snarling dribbling animals that bite whatever hurts us.  AND even if we were animals... THEY don't kill their young because of the pain of birth.

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                              John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              I was not for one moment suggesting that the pain of childbirth should drive a girl to kill her child.
                              I was suggesting that the well recorded changes in a woman's mental state can adversely affect her, or do you not believe in post natal depression?

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                                 MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 LMAO, I do indeed believe in postpartum depression... however it does not strike instantly after birth and is incredibly unlikely to have played a part in this particular case.
                                 
                                 Maybe you should read that well-recorded information?  First women are driven to madness by pain and then horrible semi-psychotic depression instantly hits them right after the cord is cut...  Sounds horrible...

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                                    John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    :-p

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                  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Glad your mother didn't know? Did she tell you she was looking for a reason?
                  
                  I'm sorry, that's just funny. Do you think women search for reasons to kill their children?  This poor woman, if she overcomes whatever issues drove her to this act will suffer immeasurably with remorse at things she can never undo.

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      Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Wait for it....
      
      It's a setup to once again repeat the lie that abortion is murder.  In the right-wing playbook, rule one is to repeat your lies until they are accepted by your dimwitted base as truth.

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   John Holdenposted 12 years ago

   Mind you, I'm not Canadian, am I qualified to comment on this thread

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   John Holdenposted 12 years ago

   Just reread the article and was struck by the last line -
   
   "The appeal court said Effert should have been given the benefit of the doubt based on psychiatric evidence."

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      lady_love158posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That evidence is laughable! All thats required is 2 doctors to say she was upset, and one of those doctors provides that opinion for a fee!

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         Disturbiaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I've been upset.  It didn't cause me to murder my children.  She's obviously got something mentally wrong with her.  Why didn't she just get an abortion early on?  I don't know but I'm going to look deeper into this.  It must be about her family. Why else would she feel she had to keep it a secret and then destroy the child?  She's probably been psychologically abused her whole life by really twisted perspectives.  I mean its wrong to have sex and then get caught by getting pregnant, but it's somehow OK to try to cover it up and commit murder... duh.

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   Maddie Ruudposted 12 years ago

   If this forum post were a Hub, I'd moderate it as deceptively titled.

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      lady_love158posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Really why?

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         Maddie Ruudposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         The article is not about approving post-birth abortion.  It's about a women under infanticide charges.

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            lady_love158posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I guess you didn't read the article or the posts. She gave birth and then killed her baby. She was convicted twice of 2nd degree murder. The canadian courts unhappy with two jury opinions of her peers saw fit to free her reducing the charge to infanticide, basically allowing her to walk free as though she had a post birth abortion.

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               Maddie Ruudposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Emphasis mine.
               
               That's a stretch.

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   lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

   "strangling your baby with your underwear and throwing him over a fence! The libs here would love this!"
   
   I don't understand how this can be allowed, when people get banned for "cussing".

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   Mark Ewbieposted 12 years ago

   Compassion and understanding.
   
   Once you get the hang of it I'll stand on some boat somewhere and say "Mission Accomplished"

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   Kangaroo_Jaseposted 12 years ago

   What I would like to know is wtf does a Canadian infanticide court case have to do with American politics?

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    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    It is nice to know so many people here are mental health experts with direct knowledge of this woman's state of mind and so legal culpability.

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       Disturbiaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I'm going to get nailed to a cross for this one, but I think that's one of the problems of our modern society, we have too many mental health experts with a bag full of excuses and not enough people taking responsibility for their actions.  I don't know anyone who hasn't had drama and trauma in their lives, but that doesn't give them an excuse to commit murder.  If this girl's mind is that twisted that she can murder her own child and she doesn't know what she did is wrong, then she shouldn't be walking around in public because clearly she's a possible danger to anybody she comes across.  OMG!  I'm having a bad hair day, I think I'll go out and kill somebody!

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          psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Being insane is not an "excuse" if it means you did the act without conscious intent or understanding.  A "guilty mind" (mens rea) has been a part of the legal system since ancient times and is in no way modern.

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