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Best Answer Snøwman says
More than just semantics, however, a person may be called "a Christian" and even believe they are a Christian, but without being born again a "new man" in daily practicing the Christian faith, their life cannot bear testimony of actual conversion.
I was responding to your literal question, not sermonizing. A friend who is a practicing Baptist agreed with me on the Baptist definition.
Demas, this seems like a rule of some sort. What is the source? The bearing testimony part.
If it is strictly a Bible interpretation -- I understand but it sounds like a religious dogma.
Testimony to me just means bearing witness. Anyone could witnes
yes eric , we know you do not believe there are any "rules" and you prove it frequently
1Jn 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
This is a hard teaching for those that want all inclusiveness
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Twilight Lawns says
I agree that I should have said "the commandments taught by Jesus Christ."
I guess the question would be, Twilight Lawns, do you believe Christ? He made Himself to be God's Son, on the same level as God, so do you believe He is Who He said? Christians believe Jesus Christ is God's Son, part of the Godhead, able to save us.
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John Marshall says
Demas W Jasper says
Amen to Rich.
Debra Allen says
Where and when did He communicate this: " He also said that FAITH is not in a church or a church or in a book or book of books but in yourself." I like it and want to know the source.
Faith as in a Mustard seed. Mustard seeds are not tiny at all. He did not preach out of a book. The Bible he did not have. When two or more are gathered together He did not specify a church. No trust or faith in oneself will get you nowhere fast.
"Faith" "Your Faith" is used many times by Jesus. He also said faith comes from God. To each is given a measure of Faith. What we do with it makes a difference.
Christ taught in the 'Church' of the time, He came to fulfill the law, His bride is the Church, Acts also reveals the beginning of the Church as we know it. Accepting Christ is the start, but one needs a healthy environment to grown in spiritually.
Soj, He never said that. That was Man who said that he was the Bride of the Church. How can one be a bride of anything if he didnt like it in the first place? He also said that he puts brother vs brother, father vs son n so on. Healthy enviro??
Debra Allen, the same Bible you make reference to with Christ's words, written by God's inspiration, refers to the Church as the bride of Christ. Jesus pitting brother vs. brother, etc. is regarding the fact that many will not accept him as Lord.
Soj, Verses please....
john marshall--- your theology degree has not the truths of scripture, turn it in for one that teaches the truths of the church of Jesus Christ
Charlie, not sure what you're talking about. Though a theology degree is not necessary to know truth it has been helpful in understanding a better approach towards the things of God. Debra, 2 Tim 3:16-17, Eph 5:25-33, Matt 10:24-39. Hope that helps.
Ephesians says the Assembly. It does not say the Church. They are different. I use the Young's Translation which is before KJV.Mathews, I am not sure what you are getting at with those verses.
Debra, read the verses. They are about: the inspiration of Scripture, the Church as the Bride, and the 'division' that Christ brings (in the context within the text). The word Ekklesian is Church, from 'just as Christ also loved the church' Eph 5:25.
SoJ, I read the verses. How do you think that I came up with the question I just asked? The church and Assembly are NOT the same thing. An ass. is not a Religion ir denomination. Am ass can be 2 or more people of all kinds Ideals and beliefs.
Ekklesia is the Church. I'm not sure why the idea of the Church is under fire. Why is this idea wrong or 'off' to you?
Church today means a denomination or a single mindset. Assembly is all denominations fro two people to many that want to hear what Jesus spoke. His was not into converting, while today's churches do are fervent in converting as possive of others.
Jesus told his disciples, "if you love me, feed my sheep." That means go and spread the word about me and your salvation. He wants all to come to Him.
Debra, just b/c one is a part of a denomination doesn't mean that one believes all others are bad, or not part of the body of believers. There are many denominations who have the same goal. Also, shouldn't we bring people the good news, 4 conversion?
Real congregations are cool they bring a synthesis of believers together and they work hand in hand to formulate the best they can to have wonderful services and support each other and others.
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I think you have become distracted by taking issue with the Church. The main issue is not the baptizer, but the Church often has baptisms done by church leadership. Scripture says Christ is the Head of the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ.
you are talking about the ch.urches of man, i about THE church of Jesus Christ. The scriptures say the head of man is CHRIST not some man made institution . scripture is supreme not mans kingdom.
That has become the tradition of men, like most everything else that goes on in the building. Your disciples of men not Christ. The problem is not what Christ is head of, the problem is believing that the traditions of men is the church.
Again, if you believe the Church of Christ is not related to the Church that men attend and lead then you have been duped. Scripture shows how there are leaders and various parts of the Church, and that we are to meet together as the Church.
Without this interpretation what were Peter and Paul doing. Leading no one nowhere? Of course there is structure in churches. Hatred of all churches is just plain not helpful for an understanding.
Not agreeing with the teachings of man should not infer hatred. Christ, nor Peter or Paul implied "why can't we all just get along". In fact their teaching are exactly opposite. Almost everything outside the gospels was warnings. Now is time to heed.
It is men who are taught by men in the denominational seminaries of men that have been duped and indoctrinated into believing that man-made traditions of organized religion within man-made named buildings is the body of Christ.
elafoe 1 minute ago
eric & Soj - the pattern you are following is that of the OT temple that was part of the law and died with Christ, Except for men that want to ensnare God's people for their personal gain. God's people understand He is with us
The NT reveals the beginning of Christ's Church. Also, why would you think God would not use an organized Church? Do you think He is disorganized? Does He want us to individually interpret His doctrine on our own? He uses man to spread His gospel.
You don't understand because of your indoctrination. The NT reveals the beginning of Christ's Ekklesia who are living stones. The organized temple system with their denominational traditions of men in named buildings are contrary to Scripture.
Jesus Christ declared himself in his local synagogue, and repeatedly taught in the temple, obviously having nothing against either. The commercialization of the temple stirred his righteous anger, and wasn't a small part of the vendetta against Him.
How many epistles of the New Testament were written to churches?
Eric there were many but they were all written by Paul, not Jesus. Jesus didn't write anything...or he did and it is hidden from us.
They are like Haman the Agagite, not really speaking for the King but their deception builds their own gallows. What they have will be given to those that have not. No hirelings to watch His sheep. The building is man's way not His. 501 c 3 Gov ran.
The epistles were written to a locality of believers in a particular area, or city, but the church clergy believe that Paul's words are meant for indoctrinated pew warmers in their denominational man-named buildings. The blind leading the blind.
Not all gathering of people in a building to worship together is bad. This blanket approach of reproach is not beneficial to anyone. If it is not hate, I would like to see what is.
It seems evident that there are those who feel people gathering in Christ's name must be against His will. It may be that people do not want accountability; perhaps it feels more freeing to interpret Scripture & not have it questioned by leadersh
Both of you twist my words as that is not what I have said. It is easy to claim to meet in Christ's name, but all one has to do is look at the sign on the building. Typical clergy men with their paper certificates. Well come and question my articles!
Sure, not every church is of The Church, & not everyone who says they are a Christian truly is one. However, there are true Christians & there are many churches that are of The Church. The Church, as an organized body, is God's idea. Please s
Jesus destroyed the temple and the way things were done, God's idea. Man rebuilds the system. God is not building His Ekklesia in Babylon, you have to come out from among them. You don't pick which building is correct, He destroyed that system.
Jesus Christ did not destroy the temple. The Romans destroyed the temple. Christ was referring to the temple of His body. Our own bodies are the temple for our souls. Contention is not of the Lord.
Jesus did not use ONLY a building to preach and share his words. Remember the Sermon on the Mount and the place he preached at where they fed so many people. He was out of doors for most of his sermons and teachings.
No contention there, Lady G.
I stand corrected.
Paul tells us what to do when we (the church) come together. in 1 Cor 14:26---. And it sure isnt what happens in the churches of men. there are so many false christians because they choose to follow man rather than understand scripture themselves
Cel what you said does not make any sense. Scripture is made by man and then you say to follow scripture but then you do not go by the words of man?
I would surely like an explanation of this by Charlie.
My belief is that scripture is not made by man. It is written down by man but the source is God or His instruments. Yes there are scribes that lie just as there are those that twist the written word for personal gain. Pray we do neither.
Rich, That is true but then why did those scholars "think" it best to leave half or more of what Jesus did and spoke Out of the Bible? Why does the Catholic Bible have more books than the KJV? Everything is inspired by God and we just wite it down.
eric & debra --THE SCRIPTURES ARE NOT of man. IF YOU BELIEVE THAT they are , AND YOU SAY YOU DO then i will not waste my time further on the discussion
Debra, I don't know but notice that despite all the versions, additions, subtractions, the Gospel some how makes it into all the translations, that holds true through time. If we have that the rest He will help us with.
The attack on the Church as an 'organization' does not make sense. How is it that men wrote down the words of God, but men cannot meet together as the Church which God created? It is an instrument for Christians to work together for God's purposes.
Charlie I missed that a few days ago. I contend that all writings are of men. Some are divinely inspired. Gatherings can be divinely inspired also. If we learn here --- who is to say this gathering of writers is not a church fitting.
Eric- yes this is a meeting of the church the way we have been interacting. nothing like the churches of men where a man usurps the place of Christ and teaches his beliefs. We are to find truth
I think there are "churches" out there that hold to the same truth. But we are in accord here. Vigorous interaction between minds seeking some truth with the help of others and the HS and scripture. Does it get any better?
eric-- keep thinking that. I have no hope for that. I have found some that say yes but when you try to do this and step on their pet cow you will be "asked " to leave for being "contentious or some such church excuse. truth is not welcome
John Marshall, I have looked into the question you asked and can find many references to Jesus having said the he and God were one; that to see him was to see God; that forgiveness of sins was within his power, as it was God’s. But at no stage can I
Paul; wrote of the church and its organization in 1 Timothy Chapter 3, and this about Jesus Christ and about God the Father: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, ..."
Twilight, I think you meant to repost this under your original comment, but either way we can correspond about it. I believe you were cut off. Please repost your comment. These comments are limited, so perhaps you were cut off by comment limitation.
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Eric Dierker says
I think that is a great and accurate set of distinctions. It allows that a person could have, even bear, a testimony about Jesus Christ and not be a convert to Christianity for their failure to live a Christian life.
Big difference between saying and doing. This causes separation in "professing" believers. We do lots of saying with the keyboard, if our actions reflect His written word then we are on the correct/narrow path. We need actions louder than our words.
Great response...terrific flow of thoughts...thanks for the focus/perspective and where it brought me...glad you took the time to share !
Tony, thank you for uplifting words of encouragement. I have to remember to do that more often.
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tony mcnaughton says
There are four gospels: the gosel according to...., according to...., etc. From them collectively we know what Jesus Christ meant when He said to "be even as I am." I feel I have been told to live my life that way in order that I can know Him.
Minus act, there are 22 books correcting peoples action, after they had been preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God. Tweaks/adjustments for Those that have fallen from their first love. Doers not just hearers of the word.
tony committed to a church of men instead of the kingdom of God is far from a csriptural truth. There is not one scripture to support such a philosophy
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