Recently someone escaped miraculously from a train accident while there were many deaths. There were immediate thanksgiving prayers in the family. Some others who were not Christians too were saved. There were some irreligious people too. Who saved them?
Be you a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, agnostic or an atheist every human is created by God, that is what the Bible says. If God is predisposed to save only those who pray to HIM, what it means is that he does not care much for those who don't pray.
Can God be so prejudiced?
On the other hand, who saved the others? Is it Allah, 330 million deities in Hinduism etc who saved their respective followers? And, who saved the Godless?
Or, maybe God has nothing to do with who lived and who died. It is all purely by chance......(Skeptics will say this but that is not the answer I am seeking). I want to hear from Christians who are knowledgeable about God's way of working.
Prayer has scientific results by the way, just so you know.
"If God is predisposed to save only those who pray to HIM…" This is no one's belief that I know!
You seem to have a simplistic view of a complicated picture.
"I want to hear from Christians who are knowledgeable about God's way of working." Wow. So you're willing to hear from anyone who tells you what you want to hear?
Would you please give us a link to "scientific" studies that show prayer has "scientific results"? I've never seen anything that showed prayer has any effect at all, let alone a "scientific result". Lots of unsupported claims, of course, but never a single instance of actual proof or even a tidbit of evidence.
Not simple really. Let me say it again. Who saved the other people?
Eph 4:6One God and Father of all,
who [is] above all, and through
all, and in you all.
"but with your own eyes
you saw my body being formed.
Even before I was born,
you had written in your book
everything I would do."
"... For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."
We all have an appointed day.
Of course prayer helps... and meditation too:
http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/c … eal?page=2
Prayer is an enigma. Does God hear every prayer? Yes. Is it always answered? Yes. Do we always get what we want? No. Can the finite understand or explain it in the concept or paradigm of the millions of souls involved at a single moment? No. Does it work? Yes.
How can you tell if your prayer was heard? How do you know when it is answered? How do you know if prayer works or not?
What the the things/events that you can look to to know any of these things?
God is a mysterious force and really cannot be intellectually defined or described. To try to do so is futile.
But the results of that intelligence, directly affecting the person praying, CAN be described. So what do we look for to find an answer to a prayer and how do we determine it was from a god?
For me it came in unexpected ways. I asked for help and I got it in ways I could not have imagined.
If something happens that you would not have imagined, it is proof that a god did it?
I'm sorry, but things happen to me every day that I did not imagine would. I just don't attribute such events to a god, that's all, and don't understand why anyone else would either.
Because some people have trouble accepting that some things are out of our hands. The lack of control over what ultimately happens in our lives as far as devastating events, death, and tragedy is scary... so people convince themselves that something can be done to control it.
You're probably right. A desire that some (benevolent) entity has control of what they do not. Coupled perhaps with a desire for affirmation that their god is watching over them; by deciding God answered their prayer they have that.
I'd go further. As soon as someone sincerely attributes an event or experience to god, then to all intents and purposes (as far as the mechanisms by which we form beliefs are concerned) they have 'experienced' god. That 'experience' is at the very heart of continued god belief, because experience has a very high epistemic status (we value things we have experienced above other forms of knowledge).
So regardless of whether someone has actually experienced god, if that person genuinely believes they have (and has no reason to doubt their faculties) then the process of belief formation/maintenance will work in exactly the same way it would with any other belief.
Even if there were no such entity as god and that person's 'experience' was based on a strong desire for a benevolent entity to be in control of things they cannot be (hope), it doesn't matter. Their belief is grounded in the (apparent) experience of god.
So telling someone they may not have experienced god, is the equivalent of trying to tell someone they may not have had eggs for breakfast yesterday. They are adamant they did, not because of evidence (not all beliefs are formed on the basis of evidence) but simply because they (apparently) experienced it.
Belief grounded in experience is the strongest there is, and every Christian I have ever spoken to believes that god has actively intervened in their life in some way. This is one of the reasons god-belief is so strong.
The problem with what Kathryn is saying, wilderness, is that, she is only defending her point. She is not listening to what you have to say. She sees what you are saying as attacks without questioning what you are saying first.
As you might have noticed, she never was able to explain how she felt. And she's making what she believes in to be subjective. "To each their own." These are just my observations...
When I wrote my first Hub, I felt extremely emotional to the point where I got this high. Literally. As if I took a drug and got high...I got the effects of what a stimulant would give to me. I was high for about 5 hours. Don't forget, this was from not taking any form of illegal or non-prescribed drug.
I'm agnostic, so I don't know whether or not to believe in God. Therefore, can I say God answered me? Or gave me strength? How in the world did I "make" myself feel that rush? And for how long, too... It was so unbelievable. However, unlike Kathryn, I can guess that my brain felt an overwhelmingly amount of dopamine and/or serotonin and released it, causing my body to feel the effects because I was so emotional that night.
I'm just offering my personal experience to show an example. And I'm not the only one whose had these experiences...
Agree right down the line. We all have the experiences at one time or another in our lives; the difference is that some attribute it to known chemical/physical reactions in the brain and some attribute it to an unseen, undetectable, unknowable god.
And, like Kathryn, proceed to claim that they KNOW where the feeling comes from; an obvious impossibility as the god is always undetectable. My only objection is when this unsupported opinion is presented as factual when it very plainly is not.
Taking a page from the secular, there is "empirical" evidence that prayer works. Of course, this type of evidence is not what some would accept as it is not written in a logical progression of experimentation. However, we do have, and I can say I do have, this "empirical" evidence to the value of prayer.
It happens when the doctor says "I don't know. I must be a miracle." Prior to this we have a "There's nothing else we can do" as the prognosis, followed by the shrug of the Dr.'s shoulders when all of a sudden (we are talking minutes, not extended periods of time to allow for other factors) that which was expected did not happen. Nor are there any remaining symptoms; nor is there any remaining evidence that the issue is still on going. We have the doctors and nurses that witnessed the incident, a write up chart, blood screen along with previous documented cases of the same nature pointing at the expected and unavoidable outcome, the death of the patient. Then, its all gone. "I don't know. I must be a miracle" probably won't be written on the charts, but it is surely written on the mind of those involved.
Far be it from me to explain that which the doctors cannot, other than to say prayer works.
I see. Our ignorance is proof that prayer works.
Pardon me if I cannot agree with that: I've seen far too many instances of "I don't know, and don't bother to find out, so it had to be a god". Much like "I don't know, so it was an alien UFO in the sky". Or "I don't know, so it had to be Nessie, the Lock Ness Monster".
Ignorance, as you put it, does not appear to include you as your pronoun suggests. The ignorance, as you put it, is here applied to medical science. They, not I, verbalized "It must be a miracle". (Were it I, it would have been definitive, not speculative.) Yet, it stands. The prognosis (comment) was derived using all the evidence available to the medical personnel at the time. It would seem your position here is adverse to medical science more to myself.
It was you that presented our ignorance as proof prayer works, not I. That it came from a doctor doesn't change anything - it is still simply that we're ignorant and therefore prayer is effective and works.
Whether a doctor, another well-regarded person or the man in the street, saying that ignorance proves anything but ignorance itself is a complete failure of reason, logic or fact.
If it makes me "ignorant" in your book to be unable to explain prayer, so be it.
However, lets go back to and consider your many arguments as to lab testing and time and the myriad of other minced words of, so-called, required proofs of "fact." The many require items are the basis for the manner in which items are proven true or false. The science of medicine is fraught with these tests and teaching. And we might add "Medicine" is a legitimate science, unlike those spurious sciences used by the naysayers of God.
Now comes several men with the background and studies in medicine, folks controlled by the above reqs that you seem to see as a necessity for proofs of all things. And they make a simple statement, "It must be a miracle." How does that fit. Well, they are ignorant.
Of course, you don't believe in miracles therefore, we (the doctors and myself) are ignorant folks because we cannot explain what happened by using the standard proves, logic and whatever other "proofs" might be required by the naysayers.
But you are not alone. There are a great many folks that claim belief in this and that, including the Bible until they are confronted with the unexplainable, unexplainable being that which words cannot define and minds cannot conceive and hearts do not want to believe. Or worse still, it does not fit with their opinion or thought process. For the naysayers, the unbelievers, they just label folks as ignorant.
But, worse still, the supposed believers who considers that part of the Bible that does not fit my opinion is wrong or is outdated. They just "tear" out that page out of the book cuz God was wrong, again.
The Bible and true science hide nothing. We might not like what we see, but one can't change the truth with a smug look, a tilt of the head and flick of the wrist.
Considering myself, "It's a miracle" that God would forgive me and save me. And there are more miracles to come.
Personally, I think you're twisting the doctor's words from what they really mean ("Something happened we can't explain") into " I believe in a god and assure you that it was a god's doing".
The first is a statement of fact; something I would expect of a doctor unafraid to state the obvious, the second is a personal affirmation of faith and NOT a statement of fact. If that doctor is merely stating his religious beliefs then, doctor or not, it is not proof of the efficacy of prayer or anything else.
Either way, though, I did not say you were ignorant. I simply questioned your statement, put very plainly, that if we don't know the answer that it means god did it. I'm very sure that you know better; that you would never apply such reasoning to anything but religious beliefs and that it is not proof of anything at all.
... "the" doctor's words... let's not limit the focus to my experiences and my "the" doctor's statements. One need only to watch local or national news stations to note that "it's a miracle" is a common prognosis when the storyline considers "miraculous" recovery or that "miraculous" is applied to situations where those involved were not injured to a greater extent.
We take different roads in explaining the unexplainable. I rely on faith in my God. It appears you rely on the writings of men. You appear to say there is a reasonable explanation for everything. I say God is not hindered by the thoughts and writings of men.
Yes, "miracle" is in common use. And, outside the church, it means "unknown" or "unusual". Only in a religious setting does it indicate a god.
I understand that we take different roads. And you're right - I think there is a reasonable explanation for everything. In all our history we've never seen a single event that we could assuredly assign to a god - given that it seems a rational viewpoint to take.
I also understand that while it is popular to assign the unknown to a god (it's been done for millenia), it just isn't a reasonable response to ignorance. That "goddunnit" is always an explanation, just not one that we can never have any reason to think is the correct one. It's easy, it's pat, it provides an answer to every possible question, it just isn't an answer that we can verify as true.
Once more we come to the impasse of logic and faith. Yet neither has determinant presence without the other.
When it comes to God and thanking Him for something that happened to me, being an agnostic, I don't believe in the whole "He saved me." I go for a more realistic and psychological way of viewing it.
To others it may be, "God saved me..." to me, it's my unconscious "unlocking" and me knowing exactly what to do in a situation at an instinctual level. This is my theory for things happening and being unable to explain properly.
I won't say that it's more concrete than believing in God's work, but I just believe that instead of believing in something by faith, I look at it as understanding unconsciously how to do something and it helping you in that moment.
It worked directly and dramatically in my life way more than once.
God is in my life and I have proof.
Each to their own.
It is a personal matter.
I've seen a lot of believers from varying religions all claim answered prayer as proof of god, but I see a few blatant problems with such assertions.
Firstly, prayer simply isn't quantifiable. Medically soaking, unexplained things happen all the time, and patients can easily attribute these things to miracles or divine intervention. Later, after study, doctors find a chemical reaction or completely natural process that explained the phenomenon completely. These things can be attributed to a god, but there is no way to demonstrate that, and assertions do not indicate evidence.
Secondly, under the christian model seem absolutely superfluous given Christian beliefs. If god is all knowing and timeless, as is claimed, then he knows the outcome already. The person is going to recover or they're not, and the outcome had been determined long before anyone knew it was happening. Prayer would have absolutely no effect on what happens in that case, and it seems to be more for the benefit of the person doing the praying than the person who is actually sick.
Lastly (for now) even if something can be demonstrated to be answered prayer, there is no way to tell who is responsible. Dozens of religions pray, and people from all of those religions claim answered prayer, crediting whatever diety they prayed for. The is no way to determine who was responsible, and simply asserting that it was the deity that the believer believes in already is nothing more than confirmation bias. None of these take into account the millions of prayers that go unanswered, and simply saying god did it absent any evidence because it can't be explained by the believer is nothing more than an argument from ignorance.
My original question remains unanswered. If a group of people belonging to different faiths had escaped unscathed in an accident in a way that can only be described as miraculous, can a Christian among the survivors claim that it was Jesus/Jehova that saved him? Who saved the others?
Also, we see honest and pious Christians dying from accidents everyday. What is special about those who get saved and why are the others not bestowed the privilege?
If it is Jesus/Jehova who saves the others as well, does that mean that you do not have to pray to him in order to be saved? Or, is it that the others were saved because they were in proximity to the Christian and so were included in the miracle?
They would obviously claim that it is their God who saved them. What is the truth?
Its like you really want to know what no one can tell you.
No one can tell you.
Why in the world do you ask?
Then why in the world would you believe in it?
Buried deep within every human life is the all powerful subconscious mind and it's 'Will' & 'Spirit'. Will gives you the Will to live or die whilst Spirit is the driving force behind Will. Spirit gives you the strength to live or die.
Some people have a stronger Will to live than others regardless of injuries and quality of life afterwards, whilst others are indecisive - ie: they want to live but... only if their faculties and senses remain intact. Others think that voluntary death is an act of bravery and it's only the weak that choose to live.
At the point of impact or in a life death situation what we choose to do is revealed.
When we read newspaper articles or watch crime programmes as entertainment about someone's unfortunate untimely death, we shed our emotions and share our sentiments. This gives us time to reflect on the whole subject of life and death, but, we are ultimately making subconscious 'decisions' on how we expect to, or intend to approach our own deaths.
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