Is there any scientific evidence for the existence of god?

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IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years ago
If you have any evidence please present it.
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  Barbara Kayposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think you need to just look around you on a beautiful summer's day. Look at the blue sky, the flowers and the trees and just tell me all of this just happened. Evolution wouldn't have made everything so beautiful.
  The human body is so complex that it couldn't have just evolved either. If we evolved from apes, how could their complex bodies have just happened?
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would need more than a subjective view and a teleological argument such as the watchmaker fallacy.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For one thing, not keeping your mind set on "fallacies" would be a big help. God does want us to have faith, but it's not necessary to simply decide in your mind "By golly, I will have faith!" God does provide proofs, if you look at them.
  
  The process of looking at the world and the universe and seeing the wonder of creation actually has a name, it's called "Philosophical Theology" which also includes the study of what man knows throughout the centuries. Before the (relatively) recent emphasis on specializations, education used to include this (Thomas Jefferson, for instance, made a study of moral teachers throughout the centures.) Not surprisingly, there also used to be more "renaissance men."
  
  What a lot of atheists, in my experience, want is a "burning bush." Not always literally that, but something like it, something where they think they will finally be forced to say, "There is no scientific explanation for that, it must be God." But also in my experience, the vast majority of people who seem to believe that if they were confronted with something like that, they would believe would, in fact, never accept it. They would spend their lives believing that there's a "scientific" explanation for it and spare no effort to find it. I'm not putting down the scientific mindset, it's a valuable tool and many believers possess it. Critical thinking is a gift from God and it's not developed nearly enough in many people. What I am in disagreement with is the adamantine contention that if it's not repeatable in a laboratory, it's not true. "If I can't see it, it doesn't exist." Don't take that to mean that I believe we really could turn lead into gold. What I'm saying is that God doesn't always work like that.
  
  But there are the large number of people whose lives have been changed because of Him. The number is too great to simply blow it off as a lack of education, or an unwillingness to engage critical thinking. In many cases it's exactly the opposite. But the same mindset that decides if you can't see it, it doesn't exist, also often decides that anybody who believes in God must be an uneducated dolt, a pitiful sub-sub-epsilon unable and unwilling to look at the hard realities and simply accept what is real. And I've engaged with someone recently who did say, in so many words, that if you're NOT an atheist then you ARE unwilling and unable to use your brain. I also read a post by a lady who said, again in so many words, that she's decided that anybody who believes in God must be uneducated and unintelligent.
  
  Summation: The proof is certainly out there, but God does not give it the way we demand it.
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lol don't keep my mind set on fallacy? you mean the thing that is an an error in reasoning that renders an argument logically invalid? Yeah thats good advice. I would like to know what and where this proof is you are talking about."The proof is certainly out there, but God does not give it the way we demand it."
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You missed entirely what I said, didn't you?
  
  I mean that deciding that God is a fallacy is wrong. But that's not all I said.
  
  Hint: I gave a hint at one of the proofs I was talking about in the post.
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because what you were saying was filled with fallacy and I never said God was a fallacy. Also, I never saw a hint for any valid proof.
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  CurtisJ75posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The part where Chris said God has changed a lot of people's lives is probably the best way to describe the proof of God - for those who accept being imperfect and that Jesus, yes Jesus is the only perfect human being ever to live on earth, is the only one true path to not just "going to Heaven", but an awakening, that is a part of us all - it's the 20-22 grams that leaves only the human body when we die, no weight change or loss happens when animals die.
  
  This is scientific proof - and your individuality, your fingerprints - there aren't 20,000 other "you's" because He took the time to make everyone unique.
  That's a more physical proof - but as I can testify that I thought those things were weak, a true unbeliever, until 21 yrs old. I hated whiny little Christians until finding the strongest, yet most kind, "hand" on my shoulder - now at 37, I can only say that Christians will be blamed for not agreeing with the rest of the religions, of which there about 20,000 - and the others all lead to "that better place"- almost. Almost, is where even after death He'll give you that chance. Not all religions look up, some lead you to hell like it's cool - I thought it was - even after I felt the devil's icy fingers rake over me at 15yrs-old - contemplating the pentagram on a Motley record., well it took six years and no person, place, or thing I did, or was done externally - spoke eternal life into me, because I asked.
  
  Now at 37 - He's shown me so many truths - the fragility of our existence is the biggest. So when Chris said How God has changed people's lives - it means they have undeniable proof, like me, because those who spend their life changing to reach His acceptance is impossible (like monks), as it died with Christ. We can't "be good" to get there, all because He knows everything human, finalizing it on the cross and then some - it's only until that one third of you becomes alive to Him, that you feel a constant knowledge of right and wrong ...and the right is always harder..can any guy say their gut feeling, or women say their intuition was ever wrong? It'z not cuz it's His guidance on Earth.
  And the real reason He doesn't show Himself to us is because our bodies cannot handle the Glory and Power, the absence of darkness or fear...anyway - I didn't mean to get long-winded - but can anyone agree that when you know something even more than your sight tells you - it's difficult to keep it to just a sentence!!LOL
  
  ..and to post 33 right there - almost got me to say your name - pretty tricky!! One day something will happen that not even adrenaline can explain to you, and your questions will get answered.
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  Theresa Coxposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I did find proof of Dog. I stepped in it in my backyard.
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  janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how the only people who (constantly) claim humans evolved from apes are the religious who don't believe in evolution.
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  autumn18posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why couldn't it have just happened? What makes it so impossible that just because it's beautiful and/or complex it couldn't have evolved without the help of a creator? I respect your opinion, I don't see how it's evidence though.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
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  cascolyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ??? true, nothing 'just happened' - it's been a long evolutionary process, but the fact that you can't understand how complex forms arise from chaos doesn't mean it didnt happen
  
  this is the common creationist argument from incredulity - "Gee, i cant see how this could happen. Therefore, god did it!"
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen Barbara Kay - 100% True..
  
  What EVERYONE in this forum and other forums likewise are MISSING, is that is NOT ABOUT "winning an argument".
  
  This is TRUTH vs fiction. FACT vs imaginative theories.
  
  cascoly - My Watch, my Computer, my Telephone and the Jets i fly around the planet in - ALL APPEARED BY CHANCE - they just SHOWED UP ONE DAY....
  
  No-one designed them; no one made them; they just sort of "AROSE FROM THE CHAOS".
  
  REALITY CHECK : Our eyes ON THEIR OWN, make a 777 Jet look like a PIN-HEAD, by structural, functional and fully integrated DESIGNED & CREATED Purpose, System and Capacity - AMEN
  
  THIS ONE LITTLE POST IS ALL THE PROOF OF GOD YOU WILL EVER NEED..With Love - AMEN
  
  Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ???????
  
  In JESUS' Holy Name - AMEN
  
  † John 1 : 1 - 3 †
  
  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
  
  The same was in the beginning with God.
  
  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
  
  AMEN and AMEN
  
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have failed to state anything, and please elaborate on why you think Barbara Kay's status was "100% true".
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Elijah7 has been banned from hubpages. bye bye.
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lol his god can't help him now.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Praise Moe!
  
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  Dubuquedogtrainerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you realize that verse is based on mysticism? Mysticism happens when one is not being honest with themselves.
  
  Christianity and most world religions are mystic based.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's certainly true that there is mysticism in almost all religions, and Christianity is no exception. The God who died, the God who came as a man, the Spirit who lives in you, God raised from the dead. There is unquestionably mysticism in Christianity.
  
  But it's not self-contradictory to say that God is science. God created the universe, therefor He created all the laws and rules that govern how the universe operates. It would also explain why there are so few miracles, because only God can bend the rules He put in place. And science started as an exploration of the universe God created, in the west almost all the early scientists (including Francis Bacon, who codified the scientific process) were believers. They fully understood that there are rules to how the world works and that God put those rules in place.
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  cascolyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  but 'science' is an intellectual construct of man to explain how the world works - 'science' is not god in any sense that god-believers proclaim, since science cannot be affected by wishful thinking [aka prayer]
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Which is exactly why scientists who are also believers use the scientific method, instead of dumping a bunch of stuff in a pot and praying for God to show them something.
  
  Science is the attempt and the desire to know how the world works. It doesn't contradict the Bible.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you believe the flood actually occurred as told in the bible?
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Um, what does that have to do with what I said?
  
  I've been clear about what I believe, Randy. I don't hide it. I think you already know whether I believe the Flood Story or not. But that doesn't mean that God hasn't set up rules about how the world works when He's not directly intervening, and it's not wrong for humans to try to figure out what those rules are.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm really trying to understand how an otherwise intelligent person could possibly believe the things you do, Chris. Honestly, I try to see your viewpoint as I think you are a nice person. I don't really care which god you believe in, but I've always been a curious person and crave knowledge like a preacher craves a buffet.
  
  I've read well over ten thousand books in my long life, about many different subjects and this includes religions of all sorts. But science has done more for my understanding of both man and this world we live on than anything else. it answers questions with plain facts one can see and understand.
  
  Religions, on the other hand, are basically the same no matter the name or particular god starring in the cult. Just like your favorite god, they are all invisible and are only heard in one's head. Have you ever wondered why your god is so similar to the others? You'd think he would not want to be like the other gods and hide from sight, but no, same characteristics. And isn't there always a bad guy gods are trying to defeat?
  
  So the bottom line is, your god is no better than any one of thousands in our worlds history. And you are no different than those who worshiped Zeus or Odin, or any of the multitude of gods invented by man. You all believe your god is listening to you. I'll bet you think those who worshiped the Greek and Roman gods were foolish, when their faith was just as strong as yours, and perhaps much stronger. I feel the same about their beliefs as I do yours, if that is any consolation to you.
  
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Randy -
  
  Your claim that "all religions are pretty much the same" is completely wrong. Not only do the various types of religions (monotheistic/trinitarian, pantheistic, mystical, etc.) vary greatly within their own groupings, but the groupings themselves are incredibly different.
  
  Since this claim is specifically about Christianity, I will point out several things that make it unique:
  
  1) It is the only religion in which God is an omnipotent, omniscient creator who made a universe of order that reflects his unchanging nature.
  2) It is the only religion which claims that Almighty God willingly came to Earth as a man to save his creation, not because it was necessary or important, but out of love.
  3) It is the only religion with the the concept of the trinity, thus making it the only religion capable of explaining its claim that God is an interpersonal, relationship-oriented God.
  
  There are many more, but it would take too long to list them.
  
  Moving on, I find it laughable that you claim that "your god is no better than any of thousands in our worlds [sic] history." Have you read the Bible? Have you read extensively in other religious and mythological works as you claim? IF you had, you would know that this is an untenable statement, and that the God of the Bible is vastly different from (And better than) the gods of the Norse and Greeks.
  
  1) Yahweh is omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal - not created or born
  2) Yahweh does not toy with mortals for fun or sport
  3) Yahweh descended to Earth to save mankind from its sin
  4) To borrow from Napoleon: "Jesus alone founded His empire upon love, and to this very day millions will die for Him."
  
  For a man who claims to have read vast amounts, you seem to have replaced quality with quantity. I recommend that, in the future, you look at both sides of an argument. Read Zakarias alongside Dawkins.
  
  Oh, and one last thing: Yes, I do believe that the flood story is accurate. I do not necessarily believe that you understand the intricacies of translating a language as limited as Hebrew (which anyone of your literary knowledge should be), but I can tell you what *I* have read on the topic: given the words used and the historical context of the story's origin, the exact progression of events can be interpreted in wildly varying degrees, the majority of which do not include a global flood.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All gods are invisible and claim supernatural powers. And why didn't Jesus exist at the very beginning and save a lot of trouble, not to mention animals sacrificed to the pagan god. Why did god have to have a "do over" when he could have gotten it right in the beginning?
  
  Believe in the flood if you are impelled to, but explain where all of the water went to and where it was before the deluge. I've seen absolutely no evidence of your god so far and no one has produced any yet. But feel free to be the first.
  
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I like how you simply keep repeating the same tired rationale instead of addressing my statements directly... but hey, I can work with that.
  
  Jesus DID exist at the very beginning (have you read the Bible?). As a God who exists beyond our limits of time and space, this is a rather irrelevant point. However, within the limits of the created world, he revealed himself to man as a man, that man might understand God (seriously, it's all right there).
  
  As to why he did it in the order he did it... one might as well ask why he created it all in the first place. I don't know. I doubt I ever will know. I think it falls into the category of "divine mysteries" that are beyond the comprehension of man. It simply could be that God is, by his very nature, a creator and a storyteller.
  
  As for the water, I'm simply going to direct you to this article, as summarizing it would be very difficult: http://www.reasons.org/articles/the-wat … the-flood.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your link doesn't work, which is just as well because it probably leads to another ridiculous creationism site run by idiots as usual. But please point out where the name of Jesus, or Yoshua if you prefer, is mentioned in the Old Testament. And you might want to check out the prophesies concerning the messiah there too. he was supposed to be a great military leader, not a peaceful man who hobnobbed with the poor.
  
  He doesn't match the prophecies at all and is why the Jews did not recognize Jesus as the messiah. But perhaps the prophets were mistaken, right?
  
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, I apologize. That period at the end got tacked onto the http address. Here you go: http://www.reasons.org/articles/the-waters-of-the-flood
  
  Also, Jesus = Yeshua. Nice try; you were close.
  
  As for the prophecies, you've really gotta diversify your reading portfolio (who exactly are you getting these "facts" from?) The Jews actually had (And have) a hard time reconciling the diverse prophecies regarding the Messiah specifically because there appear to be two different sides to his personality (which actually led some to go so far as to believe that there would be twins who fulfilled the different aspects). The New Testament reconciles this very easily, by explaining that Jesus came once to redeem mankind, and will come again later to judge it.
  
  If you want to discuss the specific prophecies that supposedly disallow Jesus, feel free to list them for me. Heck, start a new thread and we can hash this out.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ha! Just what I expected with the link you provided, Preston. Been there, done that. Talk to Elijah as I suggested. He's more your kinda guy. I've wasted too much time with others of your ilk over the years on this site. You have nothing new or interesting to discuss. Write a hub and there will be plenty of believers here to pad your ego. This site is rife with them. Welcome to HubPages, however.
  
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  twosheds1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity is not unique. There are many parallels between it and other faiths. Here are a few links:
  http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm
  http://www.dbskeptic.com/2009/09/13/pag … ns-of-god/
  http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/a/christianity.htm
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Let me start by saying that even though you and I look at things very, very differently and we got off to a pretty rough start, I have greatly appreciated the way we have been able to have a decent conversation over the last couple of weeks.
  
  That having been said, I am also under no illusions about where you are and where I am. I may get a little preachy sometimes, but I've mainly been trying to treat my time in these forums as a chance to teach people about what people like me actually think and why. I also treat it as a time to learn, because I honestly want to know about people. I've learned that most people are basically decent, most people want to be nice and if you're not a jerk to them they usually are not a jerk to you. Still, it can be pretty tricky, because there's variation in Christian thought just as there is in any other philosophy or religion. Nonetheless, even though several non-believers have said nice things about me, I'm not fooling myself. I look at God one way, you and others look at Him differently.
  
  I would be happy to go into the differences between God and all the other religions. I don't know that's what you're actually looking for. You have said I'm an intelligent person and I appreciate that, although I'm not sure I agree. Nevertheless, it's been since my supernatural experiences started that I started actually thinking about the Bible, Christianity and God. And wondering why what seems so clear to me seems so opaque to other people. Much the same way you feel about me.
  
  I wrote a hub about my supernatural experiences. I wasn't always a Christian, and I didn't put much stock in it before I became one. I know you don't agree with what I say, but it is honestly what I have experienced and what I believe. Things that seem one way are totally different when you suddenly know that God actually is there. And God does not fit into "rational" parameters.
  
  As usual it's late and I'm tired. For what it's worth, I appreciate your honesty and I believe that you are not meaning anything you say in a nasty way. I appreciate that you attempt to understand my point of view, even if it just seems totally incomprehensible to you.
  
  But ultimately, I do believe in God.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do appreciate our conversations Chris, and also respect you as a fellow human being. It really doesn't bother me that we differ on religion. You see something I do not. For thousands of years man had believed in one god or another, all thinking they were absolutely right in following whichever invisible deity was around at the time. Neither you nor I can say any of them were wrong, nor right for that matter.
  
  I do try to see things through the eyes of people like yourself. But I suppose I fail miserably in some peoples eyes. I cannot help it. Someone has got to go to hell in your gods plan. But why would a god ever have such a plan where this was necessary? Only so many are allowed to enter heaven no matter what happens. It's all in the plan. Somebody has got to burn. No, I cannot respect your god. Sorry Chris.
  
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed, man.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said to Randy, we are what we are. But I still appreciate the conversations we've had.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We are what we are. Not everyone is going to accept or respect God, that's clear from history and from the Bible. But it's been good talking with you.
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Since I apparently can't reply any further down, I'm going to do it here.
  
  Your response is... "been there, done that?" Did you even read the article? I mean, don't get me wrong. I've become accustomed to the "arrogant atheist who dismisses anything a creationist says regardless of evidence" routine, but I was actually hoping you might take off that hat for this discussion.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am familiar with the author of this article, Preston. He ticks of both scientists and Young Earth creationists alike. A funny guy, no doubt. Not wasting my time on this garbage even though he isn't nearly as nutty as most creationists.
  
  And I'm agnostic, not atheist.
  
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You see, this is the thing that bothers me most about agnostics/atheists (since you claim to be the former). You state that you want scientific evidence, that you want logic, and that you want emotionless appeals to fact. And yet, upon being presented with just that, your immediate response is to say "I'm not wasting my time on this garbage." All this says to me is that you are, quite simply, unwilling to consider the other side. All of your appeals are thrown out the window because of the simple fact that you don't actually want to weigh the evidence. You've made up your mind, and that's the end of it.
  
  Hypocrisy at its finest.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry to be so long in answering your post, but I have been busy today and just checked back in, IA. You misunderstood my meaning I suppose. I've already read some of this guys stuff and know a bit of his history. I simply don't want to rehash things I've been through before. Check out his history. Besides, I'm not trying to get you to believe in any god of mine. If you're happy believing in these types of things, then by all means do so.
  
  You can look back in the forums and see how these same creation sites have been discussed many times. I advise you to always check out the guys making the claims and running these sites first. And how real scientists view their work.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did you ever tell me that? I don't know. I honestly thought you were atheist...
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've never claimed to be an atheist, Chris. I've never said there were no gods, merely that I've seen no evidence of their existence. If I ever see a god I'll certainly not deny it.
  
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  cascolyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  actually that's the definition of an atheist - one who finds no evidence for a god
  
  it's a religious based slur that defines atheism as 'knowing' there's no god - no rational person could make such a claim, as it would involve proof of a negative
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  cascolyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  that's one of the funniest things i've seen in a LONG time - SCIENCE contradicts the bible on almost every page - the bible os riddled with contradictions and inaccuracies, not to mention scientific ignorance.
  
  we have yet to see you [or your fundamentaslist fellow travelers] aCTUALLY NAME THESE ALLEGED SCIENTISTS WHO ARE ALSO BELIEVERS and provide refeneces to the peer reviewed journals that have published their research. the bible remains worthless as a scientific source. it does have some amusing stories to tell
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Care to substantiate your claims that "Science contradicts the Bible on almost every page?" I would be more than happy to discuss this with you.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you believers hide behind a fake name if god is on your side? I find this very funny as you guys should be proud to vouch for your invisible diety and he would surely protect you from us evil humans, right?
  
  Be proud of your standing up for whichever supernatural deity you choose, whether it be Zeus, Allah, Jehovah, or the Easter Bunny. Personally, my god Moe would kick the other god's butts. Or perhaps we should have a god contest to see which is the most powerful. Are you in?
  
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not hiding... this is the name of a Blog I started and then quickly abandoned, and I always liked it. Searching it would actually give you a decent bit of info, I think. My name is Preston Phillips. Happy?
  
  You really do enjoy being an ass just to be an ass, don't you?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ha! You misspelled asp! And yes, I do believe you are a true christian now, as they start calling names very quickly when someone disagrees with them. Is that what Jesus told you to do, Preston? But it does explain all of the wars and killing done in his name over the centuries. Thanks for reaffirming my opinion of your cult.
  
  Why not talk to Elijah as you guys seem to be on equal terms in your beliefs. He's got pictures of the ark, you know.
  
  I tried Googling your name to find the blog, but there were several listings of your name. I'd guess because of your style the one from Texas might be the right one because of the rampant fundamentalism in the area, but feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.
  
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  1) That's my last name. Try again.
  2) It was an observation regarding your responses here. And an accurate one. I regularly describe myself as an ass because I like to poke fun at things. I usually have a purpose in it, however, whereas yours seems to be a reflex.
  
  As for "all the wars and killing done [in the name of Jesus]," I'm gonna need you to actually provide some evidence there. And before you make your list, let me cross off the usual ones...
  
  The Crusades: Actually a defensive and reactionary effort to enforce a treaty between Christian and Muslim nations regarding passage to Jerusalem and the habitation of the surrounding regions.
  
  The Spanish Inquisition: actually a very small (by Medieval standards) event that was primarily used to remove rich and powerful political enemies of Ferdinand and Isabella. Justified under "religious" grounds because most of these people were Jews.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As I stated, been there, done that. You have nothing new to offer. I searched for your entire name, but I'm really not interested in rehashing things already discussed and dis-proven here. As I said, talk to Elijah. He'll straighten you out!
  
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, despite the fact that I have answered every question you posed and contradicted most of your supposed facts with clear and substantiated responses, there's "nothing new?"
  
  Well, I guess I'm glad someone has already proven you wrong.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your opinion is simply that, Preston. You are entitled to it but this doesn't mean it is factual. Can you prove any of the other former gods didn't exist? Or that there aren't literally thousands of gods greater than yours? Of course you can't. But feel free to give it a go.
  
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is actually impossible to prove nonexistence without omniscience. So the answer is "no." I'm not really sure where that gets us, however...
  
  On a side note, by "greater" do you mean "more powerful?"
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  TJenkins602posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, its biblical, LOL!!! Abram was called Abraham. Jacob went by the name Israel, etc.
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  Sophia Angeliqueposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First you have to define scientific evidence.
  
  a) In science, you have to be able to reproduce the conditions.
  b) You have to be able to observe the conditions.
  c) You have to be able to prove that there are no other factors involved.
  
  Anything where this cannot be done, cannot be proven by science.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Noah's Ark HAS BEEN FOUND...
  
  Scientifically PROVEN - took some TWENTY YEARS to complete The Work.
  
  A Hub IS UP already - GO CHECK IT OUT...Here's a PHOTO from the Hub :
  
  (click my name - scroll down and visit to SEE - Amen)
  
  hub/THE-REAL-NOAHS-ARK-THE-REAL-TRUTH-AND-WHY-ITS-TIME-TO-TELL
  
  † Micah 5 : 2 †
  "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
  
  A PRESERVED NOAH'S ARK MAIN HULL RIB TIMBER IN THE PICTURE BELOW - AMEN †
  
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  Paul Wingertposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  :LOL:
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  mr williamsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lol
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  twosheds1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Short answer: no. Long answer, though I suspect you know all this: in order for something to be evidence of a god's existence, we'd have to agree on what evidence for god would entail, and no one can agree on that. People can't even agree on what god is, and that's just the believers. So first you'd have to agree on what you mean by "god" (a physical being, for example, or a non-physical being existing outside the bounds of time & space), then agree on what would constitue evidence for that god, and then set out to find it.
  
  Good luck with that.
  
  Lawrence Krauss & William Lane Craig had a debate a few years ago entitled "Is There Evidence for God" or something like that. It's on YouTube if you're interested.
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  TJenkins602posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with what twosheds1 says.
  
  As far as experiential evidence. My life has taken a turn for the wierdest. I've experienced so much BS that there just has to be some God out there, LOL!!! Otherwise, life would make just a little more sense. LOL!
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  Theresa Coxposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No scientific evidence proving the existence God. Or did you mean Dog? Because there is abundant scientific evidence pointing to the existence of Dog.
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Emile Rposted 12 years ago
Please provide scientific evidence that proves there is no God.

The search for God doesn't fall into the realm of science.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why not? It would open my eyes and yours.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm all for proof. But, isn't science geared toward studying the physical world? Where would you start the experiment? I guess someone would first have to get a handle on what, exactly, God is.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Science has no interest in God, but if they stumbled onto something like the arc. I'd pay attention. I paid attention when they dated the shroud of Turin. My attention was wasted.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I think the shroud is a curiosity. I'd love to view that and the body of Saint Bernadette (I think that's her name), the chamber at the foot of the sphinx, etc etc.
  
  The ark would be a find. What would we do if we found it and it contained a stone tablet and a jar of manna?
  
  I honestly think, if God exists in any manner, proof is hidden for a reason. The only reason I can think is that proof would inhibit our curiosity. So, to me, atheism and agnosticism would be on the rise for a very good reason. I don't think it could be hidden so that we could be dragged along by religion with a ring in our nose.
  
  I know you think we are just another animal, and I think that is true on one level. But, we are different from the other animals and life is somehow interconnected. That interconnection has to be aware of the process, on some level. Once we've peeled all of the layers down to its most basic level we might get a handle on this idea called God.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why would he hide himself if all he wants is worship? Doesn't make sense to me. I wouldn't need to see him to believe in him, just give me something that shows me that humans don't abide by the same laws of nature that other animals do. We are smart and we do communicated, but so are elephants. We do have the ability to share knowledge, so we can learn from one another, that is unique perhaps, but we are like any other animal. A little different and a little the same from each other. We are subjected to the same diseases and parasites as any other animal and we are not at the top of the food chain.
  
  If someone had statistics that proved over and over again that people who pray, don't get cancer I'd pay attention.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All gods hide themselves. They have to, it's in the god rulebook. Funny how the christian god has the same routine of all of the other multitudes of gods throughout history. Not one of them cares to make themselves known to humans. You'd think the REAL god would not want to appear the same as the false ones, wouldn't you? Not very original of him!
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I JUST WANT TO SEE ONE!!!! and not in a dream, that doesn't count, and I can't be the only one who see him, and I have to catch him on camera. Ah crap, if I saw God I'm be delusional.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed. But if they are "healed" (by going to the doctor, and eating healthy, etc, mind you) "thank God He is good!" If they aren't healed, "it wasn't in His will, but God is still good!" Those ideas don't coincide well with each other, but, hey. It's much easier to live life when you think somebody's got your best interests in mind.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is easier to believe. It sure is easier. I wish there were a God looking out for us, but a wish doesn't make it so. I prefer reality.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. And it is wishful thinking that muddies the water. Any attempt to 'find God' begins with the flawed premise created by wishful thinking. We do need to throw the baby out with the bath water. All of it is built on false hopes and speculation.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I prefer my former delusion, actually. I just can't believe it anymore, because of reality. It sucks sometimes. But I accept it. More and more I'm starting to think that it's quite a sufficient survival tactic. To believe in such ideas makes it easier for people to live their lives in other areas. But, with all it's pleasantries, it wasn't truth. But I think I'd be happier believing it. They say ignorance is bliss. i think they were right.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Correct, it sucks to suddenly understand that when you die you die. I'd prefer to go to a nice place forever. I gets better. I found the book (The way of the peaceful warrior) very helpful when I was young.
  
  I find reality gives you a better understanding of life. It's not fair and it's short, but it's fun to watch your kids go through it.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For me it was the other way around. I used to believe that when you die, you die. Then God told me that's not true. That was a really hard one to wrap my mind around.
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  kerrygposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, that was the revelation that led me from being simply non-religious to identifying as agnostic (leaning atheist).
  
  I'm not particularly afraid of death myself, but I find the idea of losing loved ones such as my parents and never seeing them again unimaginably painful. Therefore, I badly want there to be an afterlife. Unfortunately, wishful thinking can't make something a reality, and in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I'm forced to conclude that wishful thinking is all I've got.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, at least this way we can look life right in the eye. It is what it is.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, but I think 'God' has been misdefined, misused and abused. Something drives belief, but I think religion abuses it a soon as someone becomes aware of it. We have to look at things at their most basic level. Stripped of dogma, void of personal interpretation and in its purest and most basic form.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree 100% BUT to strip ourselves of 1600 years of misinterpretation and misconceptions based upon those misinterpretations is a very difficult thing to do, even after we are incline to do so.
  WHERE in scripture would we begin this procedute, if not prophesy?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok jerami, we might not be in as much agreement as you think. Religious texts need to be set aside. Imo.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  IF people would read what is actually written ??? we might not be as far apart as you might think?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps. But, I hate prophesy. It has caused so much more harm than good over the years and I feel that belief in it has directly affected people's attitudes toward national policy on everything from foreign affairs to the environment. Affected it very negatively.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  seems like every time I feel good enough to post on here for a while ... somebody comes over or something happens.. sorry for the pause.
  
  You are correct !!! A little bit of knowlege is dangerous.
  and a little bit more is more so!
  
  It is kinda like pealing an onion. We peal off one level and think that we have reached the goal. in reality we have only reached another covering.
  
  I Think ... if we can ever reach the center? We will find out none of it really mattered anyway, It was all vanity and we should have been "eating drinking and being merry", It is written that a wise man once said that, after he had deliberated upon it for a long time.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Knowledge is dangerous? I suppose "ignorance is bliss" backs up your statement, eh Jerami? Sorry, but ignorance is not something to be proud of when it is willful.
  
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think that a "little bit" of knowledge is much more dangerous than a bunch of ignorance. Especially when we evaluate ourselves incorrectly.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ignorance better than knowledge? Lack of facts better than enlightenment. Ah, I think I see the problem now. Ignorance is indeed bliss for some, then? Can you give me an example of such a scenario?
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A wise man once said there is nothing new under the sun. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity, he said.
  
  Then he told us to worship God.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, if there's no fiery pit of hell involved, I guess playing games with people's lives wouldn't be so heinous.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think we'd ever find a god with that power, or desire.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, you'd hope so. But i think you're assuming that there is some kind of true justice and love out there if a deity is real. He could indeed be the sadistic, twisted God of the Bible. Or it could be more like how the Eastern see it. To me it makes more sense. But in that case, "God" doesn't take sides. It just is, and we are all a part of it. We can choose how we want to live our lives, and there are suggested (not imposed) guidelines for living it in a way that's beneficial to us and/or those around us.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The only assumption I make is that there may be an awareness of us, on some other level. God, as defined in the monotheistic religions, doesn't make any sense to me. I don't believe such a being as Christianity or Islam wants us to envision would have tolerated the human race long enough for anyone to ponder what it was.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why? If God created us, why wouldn't He tolerate us?
  
  By the way, He did wipe out the human race once, except for Noah.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because Chris, this vengeful God you claim exists wouldn't hold back from doing it again, and again and again. Your understanding of a God of the Old Testament would never have sent his son. He was too hateful on too many occasions. And continues to show a hatred for humanity, if the standard Christian view is indicative of His character
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Except that this vengeful God you claim I claim has held back again and again and again and again and again...
  
  I obviously haven't done a very good job of communicating my understanding of God if that's what you've gotten from me. Sending Jesus to die for us is, of course, the ultimate act of love. And it's perfectly in keeping with the God of the Old Testament, especially because in the Old Testament He told us that He would do exactly that!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never understood the sacrifice when god simply brought Jr. right back. What sacrifice did god make? Don't you have to actually give something up for it to be a sacrifice? Now if he left him dead, you'd have something there.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's a good question!
  
  Of course, there was something given up. But it's a bit longer of an explanation. Buckle in, because I'm not skimping on this.
  
  Knowing you don't agree with any of this, this is still the explanation:
  
  God is perfect. That's not as obvious or as dumb as you might think. Even if God is only a hypothetical for you, or an impossibility, for this explanation I'm going with my belief that He is real. And He is perfect, which means that (and this is in the Bible) He cannot be in the presence of evil. And because God is perfectly good, with no darkness in Him, then even little things that you or I might not think twice about are a big deal to Him. That candy bar I took when I was a kid? That little white lie I told my mom so I could go play that I don't even remember? The time I spent my money on penny candy on the way to school instead of on milk at lunch time? It might sound ridiculous to you and me, but to a perfect and perfectly good being, it's a big deal.
  
  Okay, so God is perfectly good. Holy, which means set apart. But He created all these people who are constantly doing things they shouldn't be doing. But He loves them and wants to make a way for them to be with Him forever. But they can't come be in His unadulterated presence (which is what Heaven will be, according to the Bible) forever if they have these dark little sins, no matter how little, staining their souls. He's had the animal sacrifices in place for thousands of years. He's made it clear that the life is in the blood, and nothing is more important to Him than the blood. It's why Jewish dietary laws require all the blood to be drained out of an animal that they eat. And it's what the animal sacrifices were all about, only blood (the very stuff of life) can atone for doing wrong. There are sacrifices that don't require blood, but those were for very minor offenses. Anything serious required blood. So He's had this system in place for thousands of years, and for any reasonable person it's obvious that you will probably die with sins that you haven't atoned for. Then what?
  
  A little side note: The Shema. Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." God referred to Himself in the plural back in Genesis, "Let us make man in our image (emphasis added.)" Christian theology is clear that Jesus has always existed, as has the Holy Spirit, just as God the Father has always existed. In order to reconcile the Biblical statements that a)there is only one God (which was in direct contrast to the polytheistic religions of all the surrounding cultures), and b) that Jesus is God's son, which according to Jewish thinking (and Jesus was a Jew) would make Him equal to His father, or equal with God (and again, remember that both of those statements are explicit in the Bible) then Christian theologians forumulated the Trinity (literally tri-unity) expressing that although God had three persons He had only one essence, therefor keeping intact the idea that there is only one God.
  
  Side note number 2: Jewish and Christian religious people understand that the Old Testament is shot through with prophecies predicting the coming of the Messiah. And although there are different interpretations of some of the prophecies (whether they refer to the specific man the Messiah, or the nation of Israel,) there are some very specific prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus' coming. It's a long list, and this is already a long post, so I won't burden you with them here.
  
  Okay, so God needs to find a way to forgive people for all their sins once and for all. Being God, of course, He knows everything and has always known this. Man has had thousands of years to figure out that the animal sacrifices aren't really sufficient. There has to be something more. Human sacrifice is specifically forbidden in the Old Testament. But God can sacrifice something, He can sacrifice Himself.
  
  God sent His Son as a human. This was necessary so that Jesus could experience life the same way we do. It was also necessary so that there could be one (and only one) human being in all recorded history who never sinned against God. In the Old Testament, the animals had to be "perfect," without any physical flaw or blemish. The sacrifice that God Himself would make would need to be similarly perfect, with no sin. This does not mean that Jesus was a beautiful man, some Hollywood handsome guy with magnetic attraction. The Bible states that there was nothing about Him that people would find pleasing to look at. But His spirit, his word would draw people. And He never sinned.
  
  When Jesus was 30, He was baptized. Why 30? In the Old Testament, the age at which a priest was consecrated and began performing priestly functions was 30. After that, He went into the desert and fasted for 40 days. This is humanly possible, although very difficult for human beings. There He was confronted by the devil, and there He defeated the devil not by showing His personal power, but by quoting the OT, showing God's power and His submission to the will of the Father. By being sinless.
  
  Over the next three years, Jesus attracts a following. Rome occupies Israel as a conquering army. Israel (which has been renamed Syria Palestine by the Romans, a jab at Israel because "Palestine" is actually a variation of "Phillistine,") is considered a miserable little backwater and especially troublesome because the Jews want the Romans gone in the worst way. Uprisings are frequent, and it's no secret that the Jews are waiting for their Messiah, who they expect to be a military leader who will kick the Romans out. Jesus is thought by many to be that guy (this is the significance of the Triumphal Entry, where Jesus rides a donkey into Jerusalem while the crowd puts Palm branches down on the road and yell, "Hosannah
  
  I know I still haven't quite gotten to your answer. I'm getting there. I'm about two-thirds through. But something came up and I gotta go. Might be a hub from this! I will finish!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So where is the sacrifice god made, Chris? What did he give up he couldn't immediately replace? The answer of course, is nothing! He can do anything, according to you. Did you sacrifice your candy bar if you could simply produce another at will and as many times as you wish? Where is the loss in order for it to be a real sacrifice?
  
  And god didn't even have to molest another 13 year old betrothed virgin to bring Jr. back the second time.
  
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The thing is Randy, some people suggest that Jesus' experiences in the wilderness and on the cross helped him to know human pain and suffering. I've got two problems with that.
  
  1) If Jesus was born without the ability to sin, there were no real temptations for Him to experience because His nature would've forbid it, anyway, so the 40 days in the wilderness tale is irrelevant.
  
  2) God has caused worse things to happen to people than being beaten and hung on a cross. He had a lion maul a man to death who refused to strike one of His prophets because he saw no reason to harm the man. Apparently if you disobey Him at all, even if it questions your morals, horrible death is in your near future. He also sent plagues, destroyed people with sulfur, he ordered men to slice pregnant women's bellies open. The list goes on.
  
  I honestly don't know how I used to be in pure awe of such a malicious entity. I think I only concentrated on the "good" and ignored the bad. The very, very bad.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's the thing ATW, nothing seems to be what we were led to believe from most church leaders if you really read the words in the old book. A closer look and further thought impels one to wonder what god actually gave up in his much hailed sacrifice.
  
  It would seem impossible for mere mortals to kill the son of a god unless he too was mortal. But then if he was mortal, he couldn't rise from the dead. And if he could not rise from the dead by his own power, then god himself had to bring him back to life. There was nothing lost in this sacrifice I can see.
  
  We always hear how Jesus died to save us, but he didn't. I suppose he could have died many times and still be resurrected again and again if he wanted to. Big deal! And people can still go to hell even though he died to save us. What? What's the big difference in this and before Jesus died? Well, we don't have to burn an ox now, so we do save a few bucks on that!
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's the classic problem. It's either/or. Either He was mortal, in which case He couldn't rise from the dead, or He is God, in which case He can't die.
  
  The fact is, He's both (Jesus, I mean, not God the Father or the Holy Spirit.) But it's probably been the single biggest stumbling block for many people.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Probably because it makes no sense at all. That tends to be a big stumbling block.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome to the world of serious religion.
  
  Jesus doesn't make sense that way. This is the long-acknowledged, not-even-close-to-a-secret fact that theologians have wrestled with for 2,000 years. In fact, it makes so little sense that people who still believe in Jesus couldn't accept the God who came as a man and came up with even stranger ideas, like that Jesus was a spirit creature who simply looked like He had a body but didn't really. May not sound more improbable to you than that God would be a human being, but it is to me.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You've brought up an interesting question and believe me I'm leading you with this question (I find that happens far to often here). But, do you believe Jesus was the son of God in that, before Jesus, that part of God didn't exist? Did God create Jesus out of nothing? If so, what does that say about God's ability to reproduce? If Jesus had a beginning perhaps God does as well? Perhaps these are silly questions?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome to reality. It doesn't make any sense.
  
  Big ole stumbling block in fact. Unless you are really, really desperate - like you.
  
  LOL That you think you know something I don't understand. This is why your religion causes so many fights. Good job on the condescension though. Impressive. Is that a fact?
  Evidence?
  Proof?
  
  Does the evidence suggest it?
  
  No wonder your religion has been causing wars since it's inception.
  
  Show us the evidence.......................
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, there was no condescension. I was merely explaining an idea and why it's so difficult for people to accept. I didn't say anything about you. I thought you made a statement that I was, in fact, agreeing with, even though my conclusion comes out on the opposite side of the spectrum from yours.
  
  I never said, nor did I imply, that I know something you can't understand.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is difficult for people to understand though. But - you understand just fine?
  
  See? This is why your religion causes so many fights. You claim to understand things that others cannot - then deny doing so.
  
  Or do you admit you don't understand all the claims you have been making.
  
  And - now you are certain that there was a time when the Universe never existed - maybe you could prove that as well as prove that Jesus actually existed?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you had actually been reading my posts, you would have the answer to your questions.
  
  I don't like to fight.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But - here you are fighting all the time. I have read all your posts. They are combative, argumentative and intentionally misleading.
  
  Plus - you make numerous claims and condescendingly state that "other people" have trouble grasping/understanding/ the claims that you make, when in fact - the claims you are making do not make any sense.
  
  This is why your religion causes so many fight.
  
  Cognitive dissonance.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, part 2 and the last part.
  
  I haven't read any of the new posts, for all I know people are telling me to shut up. But Randy asked a very good question. Hopefully I will give an answer that satisfies his curiosity, even if he does not become a Christian.
  
  It's been pointed out many times that it doesn't take a prophet to predict that Jesus would have a rough time and possibly pay with His life. After all, He was constantly poking His finger in the eye of the Jewish religious leaders of the day. And a little knowledge of Israel's history shows that He was one of many men who arose around that time either as "wonder workers" or as leaders who led insurrections. What made Him different was that He wasn't looking to lead an insurrection. The real point, of course, is that although what His fate was easily forseeable by anyone, the way it had happened, along with many of the things leading up to it, had been prophesied many centuries before.
  
  So, to shorten this a bit, we are going with that Jesus is the Son of God come to take human form. As a human, He is fully capable of experiencing pain and death.
  
  BUT...
  
  That's not the whole story!
  
  I'm not the biggest fan of Passion Of The Christ. Aside from the anti-semitic aspects of the film and his life, Mel Gibson did things with the movie that just aren't Biblical and don't really add up. Having Jesus be a carpenter is accurate, having Him create new carpentry techniques is pushing it a bit. Sounds great, but other than wishful thinking, what have we got for that?
  
  But the movie did a good job of showing what Jesus most likely went through. The beatings, the scourging. His human body would have experienced all of that in the same way we would have. It was agony. And the act of having His hands and feet nailed to the cross was agony. He couldn't breath unless He put all His weight on His ankles, which had a nail through them. But that pain would be excruciating. His human body suffered a painful, slow, agonizing death.
  
  There was the humiliation being up on the cross. This was the death reserved for the lowest in the Roman Empire. Rome did this to make an example for the people, so they would think twice about doing anything like what was being punished. But even worse, the humiliation for a Jew of dying on a cross, because of the Old Testament decree that anyone hung on a tree is "under God's curse." And the cross definitely qualified.
  
  That part about being "under God's curse" is very important. Jesus died on the cross to take away the sins of the world. That means that, just like the sacrificial animals under Mosaic Law literally became the sin they were sacrificed to atone for, Jesus literally became all the sin in the world so that His blood that was shed could atone for it. And that meant that God, not just his virtual father but Jesus' literal Father, could not look at Jesus during the crucifixion. If you've ever experienced the shame of your father not being able to look you in the eye, magnify that by a hundred million. Jesus, the Son of God, was under God's curse! The earth darkened, and when Jesus yelled out, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?" it was the point when God literally withdrew from Him. He became literally Godforsaken.
  
  Jesus, fully God and fully man, died painfully on that cross. He lost the love of His Father. He lost the respect of everyone (except probably His mother) He had known. He was shamed and disgraced. He didn't have to do it. The only reason to do it was so that human beings could actually be with Him in Heaven. It's been said that Jesus didn't save us. Well, if there's no hell, if there's no Heaven, then you're right. He didn't because there would be nothing to save us from or to save us for. In which case it was all a waste and hey, so is this forum.
  
  But there is a God, there is a Jesus, and He did rise again on the third day to symbolize the victory over sin, so that we don't have to go to hell. Literally!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently you did not see my post previous to yours. As I said, now we save a few bucks on not having to buy an ox to sacrifice anymore. God sacrificed nothing. If they did wrong before Jesus they went to hell. If they did wrong after Jesus, they still went to hell.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good point. That's another point of theology that's been discussed and debated. Obviously I'm not in the lofty theological circles of the Calvins, the Luthers and the Aquinas', but the general consensus is that Jesus died to take away the sins of everybody who ever lived. That means that all the people in the Old Testament who tried to live righteous lives would have their sins once and for all removed by Jesus' death.
  
  Here's the other part that a lot of people have trouble with. "Foxhole conversions." The fact is, no matter what you've done in your life, if you accept Jesus and make Him Lord of your life, even if it's literally just before you die, then you get to go to Heaven. Is that fair? In purely human terms, no! In the unlikely event that Manson accepted Jesus before he died, how does that seem fair? Or Richard Ramirez? Or Ed Gein (if you really want to get a little ridiculous.) They did horrible things and seem to be completely divorced from their own humanity. Nevertheless, if Jesus actually does come into their hearts, they will be forgiven and go to Heaven.
  
  Meanwhile, the truly nice man down the street, the one who loans money to people, fixes their cars for no charge, always has a nice word to say, sends money for the widows and orphans, but spent his whole life saying he "doesn't need God." He doesn't go to Heaven. Does that seem fair? I'll be the first to say that it sure doesn't. Granted, Manson and Ramirez don't seem likely candidates to accept Jesus, but the theoretical possibility that they could and then go to Heaven while really, really nice people who haven't accepted Jesus don't is also a huge stumbling block. In some ways it's bigger than the whole "fully God and fully man" thing. I accept that it's true but there are times when universalism (the idea that God will let everyone into Heaven) sure does seem nicer, and more fair.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Didn't he already know he was going to have to take a mulligan long before he created the universe? Didn't the old myth infer god was disappointed about his creations as if he was surprised at the results? "Tee it up again god, and loosen your grip just a little."
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Obviously, I wouldn't phrase it the way you do, but yes, you're right (kind of.) As Erwin Lutzer (pastor of Moody Church) has asked, "Has it ever occurred to you that God didn't have a Plan B?" Of course He knew this would all happen.
  
  It's one of those things that has been hard to wrap my mind around, but I don't want to impose my views on the Bible, I want to deal with what's there. And since God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, then of course He would know what was going to happen.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then I feel sorry for your god, Chris. He must be the most bored of all of the gods. You need to pray for him to learn from his mistakes. Even his most perfect angel was flawed. Not to mention most of his followers.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's assuming that He's just basically a bigger, more powerful human being.
  
  What if He didn't make any mistakes?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then he would be the worst creature imaginable.
  
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What if he did?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I already know how you feel about that. I think that plenty of people have covered that topic.
  
  But if He didn't make a mistake (and I believe He didn't) then that would be even more mind-blowing.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You don't really believe that do you Chris? Two of every know creature could not have fit on any boat, especially with about half the size of modern day cruise liners. And then when you done they wouldn't be able to repopulate the earth with that narrow a gene pool. That goes for Noah as well. Do really think North and South American as well as Australian animals made the migration of the oceans to get on the boat?
  
  When these stories were written they didn't take into account any knowledge of Animals not from the immediate area.
  
  Not to mention it would make God rather cruel to commit genocide and goes directly against the idea of free will for two reasons.
  1. It's not free will if when you don't do as he says he kills you.
  2. He should have know it would happen if he is all knowing, but if he knows the future the we don't have free will because he would be aware of every decision we are about to make.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In spite of our differences, I would hope that by now you would know that I wouldn't say something like that if I didn't believe it. You may not be interpreting it the way I meant it, but I hope I was fairly clear.
  
  I've been pretty open that this is a story I do take on faith. I don't understand how it worked, but enough other things have been revealed to me by God, that I feel comfortable taking this one on faith. I know that for a lot of people (possibly including you) that makes me some kind of gold-plated moron. I just hope that I've established myself enough as fairly level-headed and at least trying to be fair and honest that people will not be too harsh with me and remember that I do think about these things.
  
  The whole subject of free will, even if you believe in it like I do (and I'm a Calvinist!) is not quite so cut-and-dry. Neither is the deal with Him threatening to kill you. I think it's entirely possible, in fact probable, that He does know the future but we still have free will. He is everywhere at the same time, and (as C. S. Lewis put it) He's also "everywhen" at the same time, so that the past and future and the present are all one to Him. So He can know what's going to happen, but since we can't we still have the ability to choose what we are going to do in our "now." It's more like the parent who can see that if their two year old does a certain thing, a certain result will definitely occur. The two-year-old can't see it, but the parent can, and the kid has free will. And that is why the choices we make are so important and we are still responsible for the choices we make.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  RAD MAN ... Ark found man..go check it out...you know where....
  
  † Blessings to you...†
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've looked into this a long time ago. Notice in the picture all the scientist studying your pill of dirt? Do you really think you could get 2 of every known animal onto a boat half the size of a modern day cruise ship. Just two of the largest dinosaurs would take up the whole boat and then after the flood the gene pool would be too weak for survival. Just like this story.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Rad - Got NEWS for you : The class of animals that human beings belong to, the mammals, includes close to 5,000 species. The number of birds is over 15,000. There are more than 3,000 kinds of snakes, and 300 kinds of turtles.
  
  Dinos start out SMALL and then GROW - Durrr....
  
  So, lets just up the volume a tad : 7,000 mammals, most of which are quite small. 20,000 birds. (97% tiny) 5,000 snakes and 500 land turtles.
  
  Insects survive floods; so do sea creatures, microbes and worms.
  
  All flora come from seeds - these survive big nasty floods also.
  
  The Ark was built using the Royal Egyptian Cubit (Moses was schooled in Egypt) : 21.6 inches
  
  Behold : an arithmetic lesson : Noah's Ark Dimensions in FEET : Width : 90' ; Length : 515' ; Depth : 54' ; TOTAL CUBIC VOLUME : 2,502,900 cubic feet.
  
  HALF THE SIZE OF THE TITANIC.
  
  Total species on board including 8 people : This makes 65,008 individuals, plus an extra 10 of each clean fowl. Lets just add another 5000 to include BABY "dragons" (dinosaurs)....and sway in the upper quantity to 70,000, hey you can even try 90,000 individuals if you really want to argue :-
  
  OKAY, READY : Average volume of each creature : 35 cubic feet for 70,000 individuals and 27.81 cubic feet for 90,000 individuals.
  
  Largest creatures we have that SURVIVED The Flood were Mammoths and young "dinosaurs" "Big lizards" - BUT THEY NEVER GROW AS BIG NOW (cos they don't live as long) and man killed off most of them in the ensuring 3000 years after The Ark touched down.
  
  THEN WE HAVE : Elephants, Unicorns (sorry Single Horned Rhinos), Hippos, Bears, Giraffes, The Moa, Ostrich and Emu....what are we missing - Horses, Lions, Walruses, GO FIGURE...We have an average of 27 - 35 cubic feet per specimen to play with here....
  
  The MAJORITY of birds and mammals are SMALL, VERY SMALL.....
  
  Plus, they were SCARED STIFF and WELL TAME after the first couple of months into THE GREAT STORM....
  
  END OF LESSON - Amen
  
  † Genesis 2 : 7 †
  
  "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
  and man became a living soul."
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good Job Elijah7, you actually wrote something. I didn't read much of it, but I did read some of it because it was black and written by a person (not copied)
  
  Keep up the good work.
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  twosheds1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Elijah, I'm gonna take you seriously for once. Let's put aside the questions about how the kangaroos reach the Middle East in time to get on the ark or the fact that God killed innocent children with the flood or that Noah would need 3000 species of beetle. Instead of making excuses for how the ark was possible, isn't it easier to accept the ark story for what it really is: a fable and a parable? Even for a believer, to believe that the flood actually happens requires quite a suspension of disbelief and ignoring of a lot of scientific facts.
  
  Why not just say "this is just a story, but it's a story with a powerful and meaningful message." I think you wouldn't come across so kooky if you did that.
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  Theresa Coxposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What does Moses being schooled in Egypt have to do with Noah building the ark?
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  Paul Wingertposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Elijah- I'm not going to get into the rediculous idea of a world wide flood. Here's major part of the Ark problem. A wooden vessel measuring Width : 90' ; Length : 515' ; Depth : 54' ; TOTAL CUBIC VOLUME : 2,502,900 cubic feet is able to hold a lot of stuff. But there's one thing that it can't do -FLOAT! There's this thing called the laws of physics that is busting apart this Noah story (cute story by the way, but not hoilding water). The Ark in the story rode the waves for 40 days and nights. I'd give it 4 minutes before it became part of the sea floor. Sorry to bust your bubble.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed. The western idea of God being separate realm-wise from the Universe but still active in it is just that, a Western idea. In many Eastern Philosophies "God" isn't as easy to define, but it isn't separate from nature. Life springs forth from it, whether it's Brahman or The "Way" (the Tao), and so forth, and so nature, along with everything and everyone else, is a part of it, and that includes science. Many different Eastern Philosophies coincide well with the sciences. Science is simply the way we observe nature and it's processes and what we can discover about it. All of our principles and theories and the like are not "created" but already "exist" intangibly in nature, we're just giving them a name, and finding out how to use them for our own purposes, sometimes destroying nature itself in the process...
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  IdeasAboundingposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah... the Eastern philosophies that include reincarnation, "God-in-all-things," the worship of ancestors, spirit dragons, Kami, pantheons beyond anything the Greeks imagined, and the "healing powers" of mind trances? Are these the parts that "coincide well with science?"
  
  Or were you just following along with what you've heard in pop culture?
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  observing a thing such as God fall into the realms of science almost everything does, and the burden of proof falls on the person making/supporting the claim not the one refutuing it.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Science deals with the physical. Religion and philosophy delves into the spiritual. Asking for scientific proof of God is as foolish as asking for theological proof of his non existence.
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you realize how ridiculous of a statement that was. I'm not even sure it made sense.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No more ridiculous than your opening question.. No. Wait........I believe your opening question was much more foolish. How, exactly, is the study of the physical world going to prove the spiritual? If it even exists.
  
  Attempting to define an apple by studying parasites would be about as effective.
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What is your definition of spiritual?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  I don't make up my own definition for things. If you don't know the meaning of the word...that would go a long way towards explaining your posting this thread.
  
  Do you not own a dictionary? You do know what google is, don't you?
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Spirituality, while it's simplest definition is "that pertaining to the spiritual" has different meanings for different people. That is the nature of it. There is no finite, concrete definition of spirituality beyond that. Some people believe that spirits exist beyond this plane of reality. Some people think that everything is a part of it, sprang from it, and there is no separation, and that is how they view "God" or the life force that this Universe sprang from. If you do not agree on what is meant by spirituality, then of course the conversation will be mostly pointless, and you will disagree on what can or cannot be theoretically "proven."
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Whatever your understanding; spiritual refers to anything outside of the physical or material world. I'm still waiting to hear which branch of respectable science would handle this.
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know this must be really hard for you to comprehend, but I didn't ask for you to make up a definition. Most words have more than one definition (maybe I'm not the one who needs a dictionary). So maybe you should go look up all these terms that you're using but have no idea what they mean on google since you're such a google expert.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok. If you can't simply admit it was a foolish question, we'll move forward.
  
  What branch of science do you think should devote its time to studying something that is, by definition, outside of the material and physical world?
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God is not by definition outside the physical and material world. He is granted personhood in the bible and created the world etc. Therefore, within the physical reality; unless their is a second reality I don't know about. And on that hand if you would be so kindly as to explain to me what this second reality is that God only exists in. However at the same time is able to create the world in the physical reality without being in the physical reality.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never claimed God existed, nor did I imply that I believe the spiritual exists. I have simply asked (repeatedly) what branch of science you propose is responsible for producing evidence of God's existence. It's always fun to posture around as if you are superior, but that is about all atheism and the religious appear to be good for. If neither side knows a way to prove your points, why bring it up in the first place?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Logic proves the God of the bible doesn't exist. It has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority, it's simply right or wrong.
  
  The God of the bible has knowledge of the future, is all knowing and all powerful and gave us free will.
  
  Logically that is not possible. Free will only works if the future is not preordained. If someone knows the future then he knows what choices we will all make which means we don't have free will.
  
  That eliminates the God of the bible, but it doesn't mean there can't be another version or a different God out there. There just is no evidence of any other God. If you eliminate the Bible you eliminate the only evidence any God has left for us.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed. On the point that the God of the Bible hasn't been proven to exist. You might have just insulted Muslims and any other faith that claims to have information provided by a deity. The Bible isn't the only book some look to for information on things being this world.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Read my post. I said God of the bible.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I did read your post. Did you type the last paragraph of it? You said That eliminates the God of the bible, but it doesn't mean there can't be another version or a different God out there. There just is no evidence of any other God. If you eliminate the Bible you eliminate the only evidence any God has left for us.
  
  I added the bold to highlight the part that I was responding to.
  
  The Muslims might point out that the Quran is evidence enough of a God; for one.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Unless I'm wrong, and I don't want to step on anyones toes, but Muslim believe is based on the bible, they just think Mohammad was another Jesus. The Quran is evidence of nothing. It's slightly less wrong then the bible. It does stuff like describe the shape of the earth as an egg. Muslims respond and say well they meant ostrich eggs. Ostrich eggs are no where close. I would have taken it as proof if it described the shape and size of the earth perfectly. What what I understand the writer had no understanding of life outside his own area.
  
  Unfortunalty there is nothing in the Quran that supplies proof. There is much that proves that the writer or writers had no knowledge before there time, the same can be said for the bible.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My understanding of Islam is that the angel Gabriel dictated the quran to Mohammed, because the Jews and Christians got it wrong; on some points. But you'd have to verify that with a Muslim.
  
  Either way, the point isn't that God exists or that there is some text out there that is divinely inspired. The point is that your claim that the Bible is the only possible message from God may be seen as western arrogance.
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I showed God existed in the physical reality as far as Christianity is concerned. And in my opinion no science because he does not exist, but if the God of the Christian Bible did exist then their should be evidence that indicates that. They have investigated the bible (scientists, anthropologists, and historians), but always ends up being false or unsubstantiated.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes and no. The one refuting the claim is, by definition, making a counter-claim. The demand is, "Show me God," the corollary being, "Show me God the way I want to see God." If someone can't produce the demanded evidence in the demanded way, then the person making the initial demand then claims, "Therefor God does not exist." There are many corollaries to that, including "The universe has simply always been," which you cannot show (assuming you personally believe that, but many people who reject the existence of God do believe that,) which cannot be scientifically proven but is accepted and sometimes fiercely defended simply because it seems the most logical explanation based upon not only what the person DOES know but also based on what the person believes.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose it's sorta like you trying to prove any of the ancient gods don't exist. They are invisible like your god too. Can you prove none of them exist, Chris? If not, then does it mean they are real? What about leprechauns, are they real? Can you prove they aren't? What reasoning you guys use!!
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I've been through all that.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well then humor me, Chris. Can you prove there aren't thousands of gods even more powerful than the one you prefer? One word will suffice as an answer, so you won't have to repeat a bunch of text again.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hub.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'll take that as a no.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't.
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You give me no other choice!
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Untrue!
  
  Take my word (after all, you asked for one word!) literally!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I asked for a one word ANSWER. There are only two words which would suffice. But you already knew this.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Or the best!
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  One Word : JESUS
  
  One Picture : THE REAL NOAH'S ARK FOUND AND PROVED
  
  ONE HOLY SCRIPTURE : FROM : JESUS
  
  † Mark 10 : 6 †
  
  "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
  
  AMEN AND AMEN
  
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never asked for you to show me god. I asked for you to show me proof of his existence.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What kind of proof, exactly, do you want? Are you asking for something repeatable in laboratory experiments? A burning bush? A reason why so many people believe in God?
  
  This is a serious question. I'm trying to get at what you want. Simply saying, "Show me proof" is not as exact a question as you might think it is.
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  sorry, should have been more clear in my last response i meant scientific evidence; and logically sound argument.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As for the former part, God doesn't work that way. He doesn't need to. I'm assuming that by "scientific evidence" you mean "repeatable in the laboratory."
  
  As for the latter part, I'm going to try to save us both some time here. Do you assume that an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being is a logical impossibility and therefor is an impossibility (no, I did not just repeat myself) and therefor anybody who believes there is one believes a fallacy and you discount them right from the starting gate? I ask this because there are plenty of good arguments for the existence of God, and I talk to people all the time who disagree with me (some of them very strongly) but some poeple just snort and disregard or, worse, call names. I'm not assuming you will call me a name. But that is my position, that God exists.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are only "plenty of good arguments for the existence of god" if one chooses to ignore facts and reality, Chris. So who made god?
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody made God. He's always been.
  
  The universe has always been. People have no trouble believing that.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, it was good while it lasted....
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know about that. I have trouble believing that. I'm a person aren't I?
  
  We don't know if the universe has alway been here. We don't know how big it is. We can't even get to another star. Our own star has a beginning and it will have an ending. Everything in the know universe has a beginning and an ending. Why would God be any different? I would trust everything you read. I think from one of your recent posts your very honest about your beliefs and I think that is a good thing. Can you honestly say one God has alway been here and always will be with no equal companion, no birth, no beginning, no ending, just wants us to be good and pray to him?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Can I honestly say I believe it? Yes. Can I honestly say I understand it? No.
  
  As long as I'm being honest...
  
  The only thing I have to go by is the Bible. Obviously, I have reasons for believing the Bible, but the only proof I have that God has always been and will always be is His saying so. Because there are other things that I'm satisfied have been proven (at least to me) this is one of those things I take on faith.
  
  And obviously not everyone believes that the universe "has just always been," even if you take into account people who see the Big Bang as basically a continuation of the history of the universe. But many, many people have no trouble believing it because it is so fascinating and because they are taught this as kids and because people who actually study this stuff say things that at least sound like they are saying exactly that.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did God tell you he has always been here or did you read it somewhere?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, there is nothing to show the universe has always been, Chris. And certainly none to indicate any gods have always been her either. See, these kind of absolute statements do not help your case at all. You need to qualify the statement with IMHO. Because it is. I'm sure you would feel the same way if I said Moe created your god, right?
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  See my response to Rad Man. It fits here as well.
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  Dubuquedogtrainerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Quite the contrary - God IS science. The earth was identified as round in the Bible long before mankind ever discovered it was round and not flat...and there are many more examples of science in the Bible.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really? Have you seen G/god? Can you point him out? Please do, then you can apply it to Science.
  Yes there are examples of science. It's a history and mythology book.
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  cascolyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  and many MORE examples of scientific ignorance - you cant have it both ways - eg, right in the beginning the bible has god create light BEFORE he creates the sun & moon
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cat on a soapboxposted 12 years ago
Not that I am aware of. That's why belief in God is called faith. The beauty of nature and the complexity of her design affirms my belief in an intelligent designer. I, unlike other many Christians, believe in evolution as well.
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I respect that a believer can say they believe just beacuse of faith, and that they also believe in evolution as well.
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Randy Godwinposted 12 years ago
I prefer to believe in goddesses.

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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol
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laurathegentlemanposted 12 years ago
I think if you're looking for cold, hard evidence, you're going to end up disappointing yourself.

I am a Christian, born and raised, but I can definitely understand why someone would question the existence of God. I was the kid that wound up in Sunday School every single Sunday, whether I liked it or not. And so for the first eighteen years of my life - God was there, only because my parents said so and I wasn't really allowed to question it.

And now that I'm in college and I have the freedom to, for the most part, do what I want, when I want - I've developed a much closer and more peaceful relationship with God. I found that despite all those years of whining and complaining about having to go to church, I DID believe what I'd learned in all those Sunday School classes. And I DO pray, constantly, because I know I'm a mess but I'm less of a mess when God is there with me...

Christianity is, ultimately, based on faith. Faith that God is there, and He loves us, and He created us and is taking care of us. There's certainly no formula to HOW to develop faith - I'm sorry I can't give you straight facts.

One thing I don't agree with is the idea that some Christians hold that we're "better than." (Just the same way that Christians tend to think that Atheists view themselves as "better than" or "smarter than." I know there ARE people who think that way, but there are also plenty who don't!) I have always believed that religion should be shared peacefully, but never forced on someone, and never used against someone.

I think there are so many benefits to having a relationship with God - and the best part is that you don't have to DO anything except be open to it! God will work in you if you're willing. (I know... it sounds cheesy. *eyeroll* Haha, but it's true!)

Anyways... sorry I don't have the absolute evidence you were looking for!! But this was my attempt... Thanks for listening to me ramble? Haha
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thats okay haha. I respect the religious who can agree that it doesnt make sense, but you just have to believe. I don't agree with it, but i respect it.
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laurathegentlemanposted 12 years ago
And sorry for the disgustingly long post!! Ack!! I hate when people do that, and there I go - guilty of it, myself!!
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carlaemsleyposted 12 years ago
OK. here are my thoughts on why you should believe in a higher being.....
First of all, what do you have to look forward to after death??? turning into dust???

However, I am a normal person, One of the-I think its 87% +/- Christians-or similar to, that believe that there is life after death! You can preach until you are blue in the face about scientific proof...but that wont change the minds of 87%+/- in the world that believe in a higher being...

Before all of this bull about Scientology and such, everyone for the most part felt like -yes there is or could be a higher being.
What I mean by that is, back when we were taght to believe in God, people were somewhat normal..
As far as evolution is concerned, EVERYTHING evolves.

Have you noticed that after they took the Prayer the pledge and the paddle out of the schools the world has turned into a place where people can kill innocent children and go about their day as if nothing happened?? Or even walk into a school or a shopping center and because someone ticked them off, they start shooting and killing people?? They think its ok!!

Meaning, Nobody has anything to believe in anymore! I guess the COOL thing is to jump on the Athiest bandwagon or Scientology.

The world wasn't this nuts back when we were scared to wrong someone!
People were scared to go to jail! Now a days, if a policeofficer makes an error, you get off without any punishment!
Police brutality!! Whatever! The police were allowed to use whatever force they needed to use to handle the perpetrator... If the person weren't doing wrong in the first place, they wouldn't be in that position!

The teachers actually could do their job without worriyng about being sued or charged with whatever the student came up with...
The students run the schools now. NOT the teachers..that's why our education in the U.S. is so poor!

The Prayer,Pledge and the paddle.....
without the prayer we've lost our morals....without the the pledge we've lost our pride and commitment... without the paddle, we don't fear punishment!
So if you think long and hard about this, you can realize that-
morals, pride and fear is what most of us grew up with!!

So, go on and be an Athiest if you want.. Its your right to believe in what you want to believe in!

FREEDOM... We don't realize what we have here in the U.S.- go to a 3rd world country....when you feel as if you have it soooo bad here, go !! You will come running back, kissing the ground- on U.S. soil.
People who do not have any morals to stand on, tend to make poor choices, which causes them to lose in life. I guess I was up on my soapbox!! Carla
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  wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting that your #1 reason for believing in a God is that you don't want to die.
  
  You do understand that for many thousands of years some people believed and some did not, yet the unifying factor throughout is that they all died regardless of their belief.
  
  It would thus seem that your belief will not have one iota of impact on whether you die or not. Why then would you put any effort at all into believing and following what the church gives us as the rules of life it you will still die? It doesn't seem much of a reason.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You forgot the whole thing about stealing this country from the original inhabitants and then enslaving a multitude of people to develop it for us. At what point in the history of our country were we so moral? Most of this was done with the approval of churches and their followers.
  
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I will have nothing to look forward to, because I will be dead. Look all of this is off topic so I don't see your point. Keep your preaching to a minimum or atleast stay on topic.
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cat on a soapboxposted 12 years ago
Anything is possible, but the odds of its "just happening" are next to nil. Let's see, um. . . the invention of the computer was a random act as was the engineering of the Golden Gate Bridge, and art on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. These are nowhere near the amazing caliber of things in nature!! If there is no intelligent designer behind our natural world, what is the purpose of its existence? Earth and the universe will continue to exist long after humans are extinct.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why does there have to be a purpose? Dinosaurs were around for hundreds of millions of years. Many many times longer than humans have existed. What was their purpose for being here? What did they accomplish during their long reign upon this planet?
  
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For purely motivation reasons Randy. Establishing a purpose for your life would grant you automatic motivation. It would also establish meaning for it, aside from just living.
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  cascolyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  they made it possible for us to destroy the environment by burning their remains in our factories
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The purpose of the human species is to survive. The purpose of the individual for that individual to create. It is not something which can be given or granted. It must be created by the individual. If not, then the person will live in stagnation instead of fluidity and since they will live in stagnation they will lack motivation.
  Really? And with any sort of rational thought can you back that up?
  
  I can see how the human species as a collective would out last the Sun of our Solar System. The problem is to not be in THIS Solar System when the Sun dies.
  
  Just a thought.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Merely living on this wonderful orb isn't enough for some people. They never stop to realize just what the odds of them ever being born are. Every one of their direct ancestors had to have made love to their mates at just the right moment in time for us to be here.
  
  Not to mention everyone of them being the winner of the swimming race out of a multitude of entrants going back through the ages. The odds are infinitesimal. We've already won the lottery of life, why should there be anything better?
  
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Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years ago
Hi Randy, I heard you bit a minister in west Virginia this week...
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is a lie! It was his wife I bit!
  
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Personally I find proving God is irrelevant for if we were to prove God that does not mean people would accept or follow him.

We need only look at biblical history to see that even with all the miracles Jesus did he was not accepted by a number of people which goes on even today.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are relying on hearsay evidence of the miracles though, aren't you? Apparently none of the contemporary historians of the time of Jesus ever heard of these purported miracles. And the biblical books were "according to" not "written by" the apostles themselves. But you knew that, right?
  
  And really, are you saying if god appeared and showed his might people would merely say, "Get lost God, throw me in hell. I ain't afraid of you!" Sure, a few might, but not many!"
  
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In America we are certainly free to believe as we choose and one can put their faith in mankind but I have found mankind is far from infallible.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Fictional characters are usually perfect in nature for a reason. Do you know why? If not, oh well. However, I rather put my faith in humans. I leave the fictional stuff to my imagination where it belongs.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If God is so fictional why don't you prove he doesn't exist?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Right after you prove Zeus, Odin, Allah, Santa Claus, and leprechauns don't exist. Pick any or all of these to disprove and I'll be right behind you.
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, still waiting for you to prove these beings don't exist so I can do the same for your god. Can you?
  
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Prove that your G/god doesn't exist. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
  
  How can I disprove something which doesn't exist to begin with. It would have to exist first, at which time, I wouldn't have to attempt to disprove it and would only show I was in denial.
  
  It would be nice if you left your G/god in your mind where you are suppose to. It's your belief. It's believed true based on mystic ideological faith. The faith which is more damaging than helpful. You fooling yourself can only be damaging to the overall of society, and to the collective of humanity. Each person who holds such a belief, does damage when they speak about it publicly.
  
  To those of us who are consciously active, it's a sign you are weak and unfortunately, due to other factors, you don't see your own weakness. So, I guess since you don't see your own weakness, then it wouldn't be logical to expect you to see or recognize your own limitations either? That's a real shame.
  
  It's fairly simple to understand really.
  
  Life doesn't require(need) any knowledge of any G/god to be understood.
  Life doesn't require(need) any knowledge of any G/god to be lived.
  
  Therefore, no G/god required or needed.
  
  If you "need" a G/god in your life and you need external guidance, aside from your conscience, then you require a crutch due to weakness.
  
  And, yes I aware of the fact that knowledge about the G/god concept is available and can be learned. And any really rational and reasonable person will dismiss the irrationality of all world religion's G/gods, which are written about.
  
  There's just no need for a G/god to exist. NONE whatsoever.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  From out of this theory of the Big Bang-(Highly technical term) where and how did the element of life began?
  
  That should be a relatively easy answer for an intellectual like you.
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  kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Have not that useless G/god to life and existence given you a purpose?
  
  So how can you insist it is useless, unless ofcourse you also admit the most obvious.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No.
  The knowledge isn't required(needed) to understand life or live it. I'm sorry the obvious escapes you.
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  kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have missed the most obvious...oh well
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I've missed nothing.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is nothing to show a god gave any sort of purpose to us. We are no different from other life forms who are here to survive as best we can. This is reward enough unless you would prefer not to experience life at all. Personally, just to have this chance to live is enough for me. I need no invisible beings to blame or thank my existence for. Sadly. others do.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't need one either!
  
  The only problem is, He disagreed with that!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He who?
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lol!
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  kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You cant see because you look beyond yourself.
  
  So like Cags you in the middle of Gods purpose yet deny it....oh well.
  
  Your eyes cant tell you what to see.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You speak of something which you continue to babble about, yet rarely if ever make sense.
  
  And you talk about other people who have no ability to see beyond themselves.
  
  Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.
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  kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Cags anyman who see his own hypocrisy sees the Truth....
  
  I have been there dont that, and this is why I speak...there is no hypocrisy in me, what you see in me is your own....
  
  Are you not the one who says a man need to set his own life purpose?
  So then Mr.Cagsil, what then is your life purpose? Is it something you do in the dark that has no effect on another? Absolutely not..
  
  A mans purpose as he has created for himself is see by those he interacts with.
  
  So when I look for your purpose I see in excess of 50 thousand post ( counting yours and randy) and more than 200 hubs.
  
  What is the central focus point of the theme running through those post?
  
  If you were to minus that Focal point of your theme, the Cags and Randy that I know will not exist...
  
  Why is it so easy for all to see except yourselves.
  
  You both point to many hypocritical fingers.
  
  Find it and there you find purpose just as G/god intended.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you're saying that all people, I mean everyone, including yourself is a hypocrite? Now, that is absurd. Not to mention, if you had given any thought to that thought, you would realize how absurd that actually is. Not all people are hypocrites.
  Really? Your words say otherwise. I am not seeing a my reflection and casting it to be applied to you. I am merely pointing out your inability to see beyond yourself and how you claim to have no hypocrisy within you because you know truth. Truth is that you're using a failed basis. This is obvious considering your above absurd statement shows ego is all over everything you write.
  
  Your statements don't come across as wisdom of any sort. There are times which you do make sense, but not too often. Thus, you no truth in what you say.
  My purpose is to help others and do for others. My life isn't about me because I understand that my time on Earth isn't to be about me and if it was about me, then I would not find peace nor would I be happy.
  
  When you come at me, you better bring the military to back you up.
  Yes it is. So what's your point? When I participate in these here forums, I am not only talking to the people who are in the forums or using them. My posts to have an impact on those who read what is written and how it is written, and the context of the sentence in which is used.
  
  You're the only roaming around the forums, making statements that barely make any sense to anyone, aside from yourself- Thus, that is ego. You talk to hear yourself talk. That's ego.
  
  I know I make an impact. How do I know? Because people keep coming at me, as though they are better than me, have a more clearer understanding than I do and I find that they don't have any clarity at all. And their actions prove it, all the while, I get to point them out to others. Just like I am doing now in this post.
  What does my post count or the number of hubs have to do with the conversation at hand? I realize you cannot win an honest conversation based on reality, so you feel the need to mock or pick on something else, to make it look negative?
  
  WOW! Boy do your actions speaks volumes.
  Conscience living.
  Yes, ignorance would remain bliss instead of what it really is which is dangerous.
  Actually, dude, come back to Earth. I think the air in space is getting to you.
  Interesting statement, even if it is a lie.
  G/god? Again, ignorance is dangerous.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  cain't NOBODY see everything; no matter how much we think that we can!
  
  I think that's what he was saying ..... even you and me!!!!!!!
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jerami, he initially called every single person a hypocrite.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Where do you get this knowledge about what I can or cannot see, kess? Do you have special powers endowed to you from your invisible deity? If so, then you are a self-proclaimed prophet, no less. You have plenty of company of like minded individuals on these forums. I do not envy any of you guys your powers!
  
  No, not at all. I merely have people like you judging me as being a lost soul because I don't think as you do. I would not dare to do the same to you.
  
  Again, you must have great powers to know what my eyes see or my senses tell me. Now how did you come about getting such wonderful powers? And why doesn't these great powers enable you to write great hubs? It doesn't look very well for a representative of such a powerful god to do so poorly in the real world. You need to ask him about this.
  
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  kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  See response to cagsil
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So who are YOU pointing your fingers at, Kess? We are not claiming to speak for an invisible silent deity, telling others they are not living right nor obeying the correct deity. I care not if you worship a god or the Easter Bunny as one is just as important to me as the other. As long as you don't claim YOUR god is the only one I shall not endeavor prove you wrong. Stop judging others to your own imaginary god and I promise you will not have to hear from me. Keep your religion to yourself and there will be no problems from others.
  
  And no, your reply to Cags did not address my question as to your writing ability. Why does your god prefer spokesman who have trouble making their statements believable? Try again!
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sure mankind is infallible, but i know of no living creature which isn't. Apparently even your god is not as his perfect creation--you know the bad guy in the novel--was tempted(by who, we are not informed) to believe he was on a par with his creator, and is now blamed for tempting all humans. I'm sorry, but who could actually buy into that silly scenario?
  
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Down through man's history gaining power and position was achieved by killing the leader which Rome was famous for-don't really know how you missed all that.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying Satan really thought he had a chance of usurping your god's power? He was supposed to be your god's finest creation but was flawed enough to be temped and apparently not too bright either.
  
  This doesn't bode well when a god's omnipotence is not so omnipotent after all, does it?
  
  He screwed up the first creation too and had to practically drown the entire population of the planet. A snap of the fingers would have been easier and what did those poor animals ever to to him? What a joke of a story!
  
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  One day when you create you own universe and your own inhabitants then you too can make up whatever rules you like.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I hope I can up with a more believable story than your god does. I feel sure I wouldn't want the type of followers he has, though. I believe I would choose some better educated people to vouch for me.
  
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Best of Luck with That!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No problem, most of the ignorant are spoken for already!
  
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Randy, people would follow Jesus, but not likely the biblical psycho father. But, Jesus would have to demonstrate the same might G/god is believed to have.
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jacharlessposted 12 years ago
It all depending on what a person defines or considers to be evidentiary.
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celticlass11posted 12 years ago
There is an excellent book series out there by Lee Strobel. He wrote several books that uses expert opinions and scientific evidence to back up such topics as a Creator, a Christ, and even Faith. If you're interested in learning more, I would highly recommend the series.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not really a big fan of religious fiction.
  
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  celticlass11posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  These books are actually categorized as non-fiction because it is based on actual interviews from expert testimony. Just like Richard Dawkins' books are categorized as non-fiction, so are books that set out to prove the existence of Christianity.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And where did you get this info? As far as I know there are no independent witnesses to the veracity of the old novel. But feel free to prove me wrong if you care to. Who are these corroborating witnesses?
  
  Richard Dawkings is well known and has appeared to many of us on different venues. We know he exists. Very bad comparison, at any rate. Try again! Who have you witnessed that was actualy there during biblical times?
  
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  celticlass11posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "old novel," but the validity of witnesses stems from the fact that they are scholars from various fields. Oh, by the way, the libraries, bookstores, and Amazon all categorize Lee Strobel's books AND Richard Dawkins' books as non-fiction. Look it up.
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  cascolyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  irrelevant - just because something is sold as non-fiction doesnt make it true! eg, all holocaust-deniers, diet books, MLM scams, are listed as non-fiction
  
  all non-fiction means is that the author does not admit her book is make beleive
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose I don't understand you using witnesses which were not around when the supposed biblical events took place nor actually spoke to anyone who was. Using your scenario then, all of the supposed gods existed and still do. Someone merely has to say they did.
  
  And since when does Amazon guarantee the contents of their books to be absolute truth? There are plenty of "Ghost stories" claiming to be non-fiction sold on Amazon, but then, you probabby believe they are real too.
  
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What idiot sets out to prove the existence of Christianity? And, why would they write a book about it?
  
  Christianity is an organized religion. This is proven by the idiotic steps taken by one of the dumbest people on the planet- The Pope.
  
  If you are American, then you also know that Christianity is a business. It provides a product- the Bible. To qualify as a religion- it grants an individual a higher purpose to serve, so their life is not about them, but something greater.
  
  Again, nothing to prove.
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  celticlass11posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you read the book, the original purpose of the book was not to PROVE the existence of Christianity but to DISPROVE it (the author used to be an atheist). Maybe you shouldn't add your two cents worth without knowing all of the facts.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not knowing all the facts. Don't make me laugh. I don't go chasing things which are obvious.
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jacharlessposted 12 years ago
I agree with Cagsil, the Knowledge of Creator is not required, it is inherit.
This is essentially why Theos is unable to prove anything, by sensational or equation methods. This is exactly why both styles of religion exist and explains the constant struggle between them to see who can prove-disprove first.

Amnesia is a b!ach, innt? You know it, but can't remember it {"get it"}; You are apart of it, but cannot make sense of it; experience it, because you can't remember how-to.

"It really does not matter which alter of preference is used, be it steel-scalpel or stone-dagger, neither expression is able to prove the obvious. The quantum-gillion pound elephant is sitting in the same room and invisible to them, while the each dissect pieces of it."

James
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celticlass11posted 12 years ago
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, guys, but this very heated debate is actually in the "Christianity, the Bible and Jesus" forum. Maybe the atheists should head to the "Atheists and Agnosticism" forum and discuss their thoughts there. Also, I believe some of these comments are violating the forum rules.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, the topic could go in multiple forums. Education and Science, the one you suggested, or the one it is in.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Right, like believers don't post on the atheist threads! If you see an infraction of the rules feel free to hit the report button. Or better yet, why not actually write ahub so we can see just how knowledgeable you really are. In case you didn't know, this is a writer's site, not just for posting on the forums.
  
  If you are merely looking for somewhere to preach and not be challenged when you state unbelievable things, there are plenty of other places to do so besides here.
  
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cat on a soapboxposted 12 years ago
Randy,
You ask what possible purpose the dinosaurs had. They existed in thick primeval forests where they ate huge amounts of vegetation. Many were herbivores. Our Sago palms and other cycads existed back then. Our fossil fuels that we rely on today came from the decay of those prehistoric eras.
Birds, reptiles, and amphibians as well as insects and arthropods also evolved from these early creatures. That seems like quite a contribution.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But some species became completely extinct with no ancestors remaining to fulfill their so-called purpose. And sorry to be the one to tell you, but dinosaurs did not have anything to do with fossil fuels. These came from vast seas of very primitive algae, not tyrannosaurus rex as some are foolish enough to believe. :lol;
  
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cat on a soapboxposted 12 years ago
Yes, Randy, you are correct that the underwater creatures and algae created the fossil layer, but the decomposition of the dinosaurs and vegetation provided an additional layer of organic material that furthur pushed and pressurized the fossils to create hydrocarbons. The by-product of the upper organic layer,Leonardite, we use today as an effective ingredient in organic fertilizers.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Great! Hundreds of millions of years of life forms and their purpose was to create fertilizer. Wow! Talk about having a purpose in one's life! I suppose this explains all of the BS believers are spreading everywhere around the world. "I am fertilizer, here me roar!" Yep, this does explain the existence of religionists better than anything I've ever heard. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I feel better about my existence now.
  
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  cat on a soapboxposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol! You really missed my point though. The existence of these creatures and their contibution to the prehistoric ecosystems in the primieval forest actually FACILITATED the production of hydrocarbons by further pressurizing the fossil layer. Also, you haven't yet commented on the contribution to the evolution of birds, reptiles, and amphibians. What do you think?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Unless your point was we are where we are now, I suppose I did miss it. But then you must have some proof the planet would be worse off without these events. And for it to be worse off, there must be a true plan of where we are attempting to end up eventually. Otherwise, random events occur on this wonderful planet with no purpose at all. I see no problem with this scenario as I cannot envision a perfect world under any circumstances.
  
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  cascolyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  the larger point is that evolution, unlike any god, HAS NO PURPOSE - life volved from non-life after billions of years. lifeforms change over time by natural selection, and forms that cant adapt to new enviernoments go extinct. that's exactly what evolution predicts - and once more, unlike religion, science like evolution is proved by facts that it has predicted.
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
somebody said .....
"Your statements don't come across as wisdom of any sort. There are times which you do make sense, but not too often. Thus, you no truth in what you say".
++++++++++++++++++++++++

And I say that is true for everybody; ... which by your standards ... there is NO truth in the world .... you and me are part of the world don't YOU know???
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're making the mistake of including me or even yourself considering my statement only need apply to him because of his actions.
  
  If you've never been told you're wise, then oh well.
  
  That doesn't go for me. I've had plenty of people tell me that they whole-heartedly understood what I said and when I make statements if read properly will automatically be seen as wisdom, if that is what is being said.
  
  Truth is recognized when seen, except for those who have a problem with ego.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OH Well "If" You say so it must be true!
  In which case you would know if i was talking about you or not ??
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puneet888posted 12 years ago
do you believe in science ????
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Does someone believe in science? What type of question is that? Do you see science as some mystical dark arts voodoo magic?
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Boom! Nice punch-back, Emile.
  {and yes I see science as some mystical dark arts voodoo magic}
  Plenty of history behind science to show it.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What? Mystical dark arts voodoo magic?
  
  Oh I get it. You just don't understand it so no one can. All those vaccinations are just voodoo magic and polio just appears to be gone. And that car I drive is mystical.
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Polio is gone? LOL, not!
  Vaccines do not cure, they are remission agents.
  I'd say someone has inhaled a bit too much majik dust, from all those majik powders.
  
  FYI, the last pandemic was less than 100 years ago.
  Scientists have already predicted an exponential pandemic within 20 years.
  You can't stop nature, friend. Humans need to realize they are not greater than their maker -be it Creator, or nature itself.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  After vaccination campaigns throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, the WHO certified the eradication of smallpox in 1979. Smallpox is one of two infectious diseases to have been eradicated, the other being rinderpest, which was declared eradicated in 2011.
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You mention the word: eradicate three times in the same two sentences.
  Eradicate Defined: to remove or destroy utterly;
  
  Science has not -repeat not- eradicated any disease, ever.
  Putting a disease into remission or forcing the immune system to change, to accept the synthetic-disease, and form a fix, is not a cure, it is literally a genetic modification.
  
  Smoke and Mirrors. Yup, just like medicine men of old. Religion @ its finest.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Religion had nothing to do with these great medical advances. Knowledge and research quelled the spread of many former deadly diseases, not religious rituals.
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You clearly have no understanding of small pox or how spreads and why nobody ever gets it anymore. Do some research.
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puneet888posted 12 years ago
oye voodoo boodoo kya kar rahi hai ???
chup chap ye bta science mai believe karti hai ya ni ?????
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did you just put the voodoo evil eye on me?
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puneet888posted 12 years ago
voodoo
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puneet888posted 12 years ago
if u want to see god just do yoga and meditation for only 22 daysthere are "chakras" in every ones body to make a contact with god when they all will be active then u will definitely got the answer of your question
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Allen Gordonposted 12 years ago
For all of you that question the existence of God here are some questions for you to ponder.
How did everything begin if not by a Creator? You want scientific fact for a creation well here you go. In order for cells to maintain their structure they all have to be joined together at the same time not by some evolution. That is impossible. If you have a single cell then it will fall and not stand. Look at the ameoba a single celled organism it has no structure. You mean to tell me that's how man started. Where is the evolution of the ameoba.
There is no scientific proof in evolution. You want scientific proof of creation then look at how intricate the eye is. You think the eye just came by chance. How do you think we continue to breathe? Is that by chance as well? Also, if there is a such thing as evolution why have we not changed form in the over 6,000 years of our existence. How is it that man has healing properties within him? Is that evolution as well? The lungs heal themselves over time. When a person gets injured their body begins to heal right away. So is that the product of evolution. You want scientific proof of a Creator here is some more thoughts for all of you to ponder. The earth is on a 33 1/3 degree tilt which has to be there otherwise there would be no gravity. If the earth were any closer to the sun it would burn up any farther it would freeze. So the earth is exactly where it needs to be in place. Is this evolution? If so how can that happen by chance? Take a marked quarter and place it in a pile of 25,000 quarters what would your chances be of finding it. It would be impossible just like it would be impossible for creation to happen by chance. Creation demands a Creator. I guess it's also by chance that all animal life just happens to be taken care of. Or that all plant life lives. It is this very plant life that gives us the oxygen to survive without it we would all die. Everything is designed perfectly so how could it have happened by chance. Where do morals come from is not from God Who has these morals. Every person on this earth has morals, if we didn't then there would be noone left because we would have killed each other off a while ago. How do you think the earth maintains that tilt it's on and the exact position in the universe. Is that by chance too? Don't you think that Someone needs to keep it held in place?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Talk about being out of touch. WOW!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They're coming out of the woodwork these days, Cags. Step on one and ten more scurry out and lay eggs under the rug!
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Where is the evolution of the amoeba you ask? A simple google search would help. multicellularity.
  
  6000 years of existence? There is evidence of life on earth for 4 billion years. Google.
  
  Do you really think we would all kill each other. Do other creatures all kill each other.
  
  Spend sometime googling stuff.
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  Allen Gordonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First off one cannot believe everything they find on google. There is alot of misrepresentation and error printed online. Too much opinion for my liking no hardcore facts. You tell me to spend time googling stuff well then I say to you the same. Instead of trying to debate something that you know little about why not find out more about since you put your trust in google.
  Secondly, what about the so-called evolution of man. We are not currently evolving so if evolution is true why did we stop evolving since it's an endless ongoing process.
  Thirdly, the so-called scientific data for a 4 billion year old existence can be disproved by looking at how much dust is on the moon. The moon accumlates dust all the time so why is there so little of it then on the moon and not 4 billion years worth. You want scientific proof of all this. This was found by a simple google search since you tell me to google stuff.
  http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/hugh- … -universe/
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because the moon was created from an impact of another heavenly body with the earth. This means the earth existed long before the moon was created. DUH! Do a little research next time before making such silly statements.
  
  And how can you tell we aren't evolving? Do you have an evolvometer?
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wikipedia has become a very good unbiased source of information, because it's edited by many it gives both sides of most arguments very well.
  
  You asked how a one celled creature could evolve into a many celled creature so I showed you with multicellularity. Look it up. Sometimes single celled come together as something called slime as well and act as a single organism.
  
  What makes you think we are no longer evolving? It's a slow process, but we evolve for different environments. Dark skin becomes light skin so we can produce more vitamin D with less sun shine. People of the far north have evolved to have a much greater ability to no suffer from frost bite.
  
  You are kidding about the moon dust right? Holy cow. With no atmosphere and no wind you get no dust. Want proof? The astronauts left mirrors on the moon surface as proof that they were there. We can send laser to the moon and record how long they laser takes to come back after reflecting on the mirror. Guess what, they still have no dust build up and still work. If you really think the world is 6000 years old how could you explain that in only 6000 years we have so many different peoples that have evolved to live in different parts of the world?
  
  Looking up at the stars is absolute proof that the universe is old. Most of those stars are million of light years away. Meaning it take the light millions of years to get here. The fact that we can see them means we are seeing the light that was sent millions of years ago.
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  Allen Gordonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I can't help that you would rather listen to a bunch of opinions on wikipedia rather then facts. I am not going to continue this cyclical debate. The proof is there if you just open your eyes but then again if you did that your little ego would be hurt. If you want to continue to believe that we are all slime then fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that doesn't make the truth any less true. The beauty of the truth is that it remains the same no matter who disbelieves. You are going to have to give an account to God Himself for your beliefs as am I. I would rather be on His good side when He judges everyone according to their thoughts and deeds. If you are not in Christ then I am afraid for you. Evolutionary science is not going to save you from hell. But then again that's why you refuse to believe in a Creator because that means you cannot live your life as you please and that you are held accountable to Someone for your actions.The evolution of different environments is called micro evolution do your research where is the proof that we have macro evolved once we reached the point to where we are now. If anything we are devolving considering manking used to live to over 900 years in age. I suggest you do your research and stay away from wikipedia. There is a reason my college comp professor told us we are not allowed to use wikis in our essays. It is not to be trusted as far as information is concerned. Why don't you look up the info for a Creator for yourself on sites that mean something and by that I mean sites that you know are scientifically sound in their facts.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dude, truth comes from only one place. It's called "wisdom".
  
  There's no wisdom in a word you've written since you started posting. WOW!
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This scares me a little. He's got himself convinced that everything humans have discovered in the last 2000 years is completely wrong.
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  Allen Gordonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't have myself convinced. Here's a little background just so you know. I used to be an evolutionist. I used to believe as you guys believe that we come from slime and by what so called scientists call the big bang theory we evolved. I then did my research and in my research God Himself convinced me through His inerrant Word of God that He is the Creator of the universe. He sen t His only Son to die for the sin of the world and that sin is unbelief. Because Jesus Christ loves you and all of humanity He suffered being brutally beaten, He then suffered excruciating pain upon a wooden cross and took that sin upon Himself. At which time God His Father, my Father turned His back on His own Son because He cannot stand the sight of sin nor can sin be in God's presence. After Jesus' death His body was put in a borrowed tomb and on the third day He rose again victorious. He now sits on the right hand of my Father in heaven and wants the people that God created to be reconciled with the Father and this can only happen through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I am no longer at enmity with God but am at one with Him.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is no way you understand evolution. You stick with the technology of 2000 years ago and I'll take my car to the mall and live till I'm 85 on a round earth in North America.
  
  Did you say you think God turn his back on his own Son? Nice guy. I must have more compassion then your God because I wouldn't let my kids go through that while I turned my head in disgust.
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  Allen Gordonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And where do you suppose wisdom comes from. It has to com from somewhere or better yet Someone. As a matter of fact where do you think thoughts come from? Don't shy away from the question just answer it please.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wisdom is the truth discerned from all knowledge available and experience. This doesn't include things which are not real or presently unknown. If you're implying that wisdom comes from G/god, then you're truly misguided.
  It does come from someone- SELF.
  Many thoughts come from the subconscious and many come from perceived things such as taste, touch, smell, sight and sound.
  I don't shy away from those who are irrational at their base.
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  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The human Brain.
  
  Yea the Human Brain.
  
  The Human Brain, well at least my brain, I'm not sure what your brain is doing.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Micro evolution is a term you guys have adopted to explain differences in human so you don't have to concede to Evolution. If you need example of (Macro evolution) look no further than the Horse and the Donkey. They have evolved far enough away from each other to have a different amount of chromosomes and yet are able to reproduce and have offspring. The fact that the offspring can't reproduce shows you they are to far apart to produce another line. That is the example of what you call Macro evolution. Another is the tiger and the lion, Another is the wolf and the fox.
  
  I certainly are accountable for my actions, and I bet I am a better person and citizen then you are. I don't do good things because I'm afraid of hell, I do good things because It's the right thing to do. I don't need the threat of hell to make me a good person. Do you?
  
  Your collage professer, let me guess your not studying science or phycology or philosophy and you certainly not in the arts. My guess is theology. And I bet your professor doesn't want you to read anything other than the books he gives you.
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  Allen Gordonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For your information I am not in a college of theology nor have any interest in attending a theological school. I am majoring in Computer Programming. I have read alot more books surrounding this whole debate and this debate is a waste of my precious time with people as ignorant as you. You cannot even spell. Did you even graduate from HS you cannot even spell college or psychology. It's not the threat of hell that has me doing good. I do good because God has saved from myself. From the path to destruction that I was on. That same path that you are on. You bring up the horse and donkey as proofs of macro evolution yet they are the same species. Show me proof of one species turning into another as you claim happened i.e a puddle of slime evolving into anything that is worth anything. It's an impossibility for you because it never happened. It is so illogical and it makes me sick just thinking about that line of thinking. You say you are held accountable for your actions who are you held accountable to? I have no reason to be afraid of going to hell anymore so that is definitely not my motive for doing good. The tiger and lion are both a part of the cat family as the horse and donkey are both a part of the equine family. The wolf and fox are both dogs so show me proof of this macro evolution you speak so highly of. Show me proof that a cat turns into a dog or a reptile turns into a human because that is macro evolution. Where's your fossil evidence? There is none.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And chimpanzees, gorillas, and humans are all members of the primate family. All came from a common ancestor long ago. But you knew that!
  
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  Allen Gordonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Regardless of the fact that man has decided to group humans with the primate family they are not the same species and that is what I was refering to. You cannot prove to me that we descended from apes. Once again and quit beating around the bush with the question find me the fossil evidence. There are fossils for every stage of life so where is this evolution in fossils? Your god science has never found this evidence and never will therefore you cannot provide me the proof of this.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  May I ask what qualifications you offer to disagree with learned men of science, Allen? You know, certifications in anthropology, archaeology, geology, biology,among just a few. Or do you expect me to take the word of someone completely ignorant of the sciences against the lifetime work of such esteemed scholars?
  
  Oh let me make a wild guess. You don't need any such training because you get your knowledge from those wacky fundamentalist websites operated by creationists and other anti-science fruitcakes.
  
  Yes,I realize it's useless to try and prove anything to you as you have obviously decided you already know everything. I could care less if you wish to worship an imaginary being or to deny anything you don't like. There is plenty of evidence science provides for both evolution and the descent of man. But only for those capable of understanding it. Unfortunately, you have already proven to not be in this select group or we would not be at odds at the moment.
  
  So you see, you have chosen the correct path to follow after all. Wallow in your disrespect for science. At least until you or someone you love needs medical attention, and then you'll suddenly decide science may be better than just using prayer alone. Compromising principles is a common christian trait when they need medical science. We call this hypocrisy.
  
  And to show your ignorance of evolution, evolutionists never claimed men were descended from apes. Whenever your ilk makes the "we are not descended from apes" statement I know they have never studied the theory at all. Man and all other primates had a common ancestor. Men were not descended from apes.
  
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Randy - We LOVE real Science.
  
  PROBLEM is evolution theory is NOT REAL SCIENCE - It's a FRAUD OF THE FIRST ORDER.
  
  MOST ALL Real Scientists HAVE been and ARE God Fearing, JESUS Loving, Holy Bible Knowing TRUE Christians..
  
  Those so called "learned men of science", as far as the evolution GARBAGE is concerned, ARE professional CON-MEN.
  
  Randy - you just ONE of several hundred MILLION victims of an elaborate HOAX....
  
  There is NOT a single SHRED of REAL Scientific Evidence to PROVE the bogus sham CONJURED up by darwin and his mates - NOTHING - NADA - ZIP - ZERO !!!!
  
  CONVERSELY, Real Science PROVES CREATION IS A FACT...
  
  Live with it mate....YOU HAVE ALL BEEN TOTALLY HAD by THE Original BIGGEST LIAR IN ALL OF HISTORY...
  
  That "thing" wrapped around your logo signature.....
  
  Hisssssss all you like - YOU CAN'T CHANGE REALITY !!!
  
  Here's a nice photo of a polystrate fossil, a HUGE TREE Vertical in "millions of years" of LAYERS....
  
  When you have WOKEN UP OUT OF YOUR DEEP SLEEP, and had your personal "Eureka Moment" WHEN YOU GET IT, that ALL FOSSILS AND LAYERS WENT DOWN IN ONE BIG HIT IN THE GREAT FLOOD...drop me a line - We can THEN be friends...
  
  Until then Hissss ALL YOU LIKE, your posts WILL ALWAYS BE an embarrassment TO REAL SCIENCE....
  
  The REAL Noah's Ark FOUND, is NOT a "rock formation" - GET IT ????
  
  † Genesis 1 : 1 †
  
  "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Here is a little light reading for you. You will notice the information offers FOSSIL and GENETIC records. Don't be afraid to look at it. You will not be struck by lightning.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  These types ARE afraid of being punished for doubting their old myth book. But they have no problem visiting the wacky creationism sites at all!
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are correct.. I was wrong...
  
  I did spell college and psychology incorrectly and my spell checker failed me again. I am dyslexic and I do have trouble spelling, but at least I'm not a complete moron.
  
  The horse and the donkey are no longer the same species. They have a different number of chromosomes and can't produce offspring that can successfully breed.
  
  The fox is not a dog. They have been separated by evolution for to long to produce offspring.
  
  Humans and chimps are genetically almost identical. Does that bother you?
  
  Get back to programming.
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  cascolyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  first, did your professor also tell you the bible was a valid alternative to wiki? true, there are some inaccuracies in wiki, but nothing comapored to the bible if you're talking about history, cosmology, biology, chemistry or any other real science
  
  then you claim mankind used to live to be 900!!! just when was this? where is your scientific evidence? even wikipedia doesnt make such as an ignorant claim as this!
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  Allen Gordonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Bible doesn't even compare with wikipedia. The bible is full of scientific facts if you take the time to read it and obviously you haven't. The bible states that the earth is round and that is long before man made that discovery. How are you going to account for every single prophecy in the Bible has come to pass? This has been proven time and again.
  http://agards-bible-timeline.com/q9_his … bible.html
  http://christiananswers.net/archaeology/
  http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG … ources.htm
  http://www.faithfacts.org/search-for-tr … l-evidence
  http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm
  http://www.kingsolomonsgate.com/
  And of course your "messiah" and "bible" wiki
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
  http://www.godandscience.org/
  http://www.creationism.org/heinze/SciEvidGodLife.htm
  http://religionisscience.wordpress.com/ … r-old-man/
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ha! Most of these sites are a joke in the scientific world, Allen. No wonder you have a problem with science.
  
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  † 2 Corinthians 4 : 4 †
  
  "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
  
  AD 1959 REAL AERIAL PHOTO OF THE REAL NOAH'S ARK - FOUND AND PROVED 100% - AMEN †
  
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prettydarkhorseposted 12 years ago
Nada. Depends whether you are existentialist (atheistic or theistic). Ontological debates are cyclical - endless debates.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is plenty of scientific evidence...they just refuse to see it as such.
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  IAmAnAtheistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Same thing happened with John Gotti...that's why they called him the 'Teflon Don' cause they couldn't make anything stick. He was guilty...they just couldn't prove it. Maybe Gotti was god.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Until Schliemann they said they same thing about Troy and the Iliad.
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baronhertzogposted 12 years ago
What about this? Third to last paragraph...

http://www.francisxaviers.com/sainthistory.html
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Allen Gordonposted 12 years ago
Why don't you read Darwin since he started this whole evolution mumbo jumbo. He states that man descended from apes. I'm still waiting for your fossil evidence. And you're right I don't need no science degree as you don't seem to need a science degree. If that is what you are going to base your judgment of my posts on then you better take a look at yourself as well. Do you have a degree in any scientific field? When one knows how to read and knows how to separate the rational from irrational one does not need a science degree. You say that it is hypocrisy for Christians to go to doctors well obviously you really don't know what you are talking about. As a matter of fact the doctor that I do go to is a Christian and he doesn't seem to have a problem with God existing. There are scientists by the way that do believe in the existence of God(bet you didn't know that did you?) Here are some links you might want to look into since you obviously have not done your research in this area.
http://www.icr.org/
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/
http://creation.com/creation-scientists
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/
http://creationsafaris.com/wgcs_toc.htm
I think I have made my point. Since you want me to google stuff fo ahead and google "creation scientists". Or do their PhDs not matter to you because you fear that they may be right and you are wrong and headed to hell unless you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Oh yeah one more thing again quit beating around the bush where is your fossil evidence for evolution? Do you have any or not?
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  Jane Bovaryposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Darwin didn't say we evolved from apes - he said that apes and humans must have had a common ancestor, as Randy mentioned.
  
  Allen, If it's mumbo-jumbo why are the vast majority of scientists in support of it? Are they all in a wild conspiracy to deceive us? What's more likely? That the great majority of mainstream scientists, including Christian ones, are wrong or that the small minority of creationist scientists who have a vested interest in denying evolution are right? There's some information about the fossil evidence you seek here here.: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
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  Allen Gordonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry to say that is not fossil evidence of evolution.
  Here you go: http://amazingdiscoveries.org/C-decepti … pithecines
  That is by a scientist with a Phd so since you believe in science you have to believe him as well.
  Have you not looked at any of the links I posted specifically this one:
  http://creation.com/creation-scientists
  You say that creation scientists are wrong but how can that be so when you put all of your faith in science so no science in your eyes can be wrong.
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  autumn18posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Creation science is using already discovered scientific theories to explain some of the stories in the bible about our origin. It's not a branch of science, its a branch of creationism. It's interesting that the sites you link are religion based.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ive read Darwin's work, Allen. Perhaps you are not aware there has been plenty of research on evolution since Darwin produced his theories. He didn't have the advantage of modern techniques such as DNA testing to aid him in his studies. But he made amazing advances in our understanding of life on this planet despite his lack of modern tools.
  
  "I don't need no science degree"
  
  A true statement from you, no doubt.
  
  Did you ask your christian doctor if he believed in evolution? And why are you trusting him anyway? He uses scientific knowledge gained by using information from people with--guess what--science degrees!
  
  All of the links you included are laughable at the very least. Merely because someone has a PHD in one subject doesn't mean they know anything about another. Do you ever check what subject these creationists have a PHD in? And it also matters if the particular institution they received their PHD from is respected in the scientific community. There are religious based colleges who may bestow a PHD on an alumni but it would be scorned in the real world of science.
  
  There are plenty of fossils available to be seen if you care to look in the right places. Unfortunately, no giants or skeletons from 900 year old men either. There are many examples of the now extinct neanderthal sub-species of humans. Not to mention other species which became extinct unlike cro magnon man, our closest ancestor. But you won't find them on your favorite sites you have listed as some sort of proof. You have to look at actual scientific sites instead of those meant for the uneducated masses.
  
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  Allen Gordonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The only uneducated masses are the evolutionists. You put all your faith in man who will lead you wrong everytime just look around you at what man is doing to themselves. It's sad that you are so blinded to this. No my doctor does not believe in evolution but I brought him up because you say the Christian cannot go to medicine and if we do it is hypocrisy yet one of the writers of the Bible was a doctor. Darwin was the worst thing that ever happened to mankind. Why are the links I provided laughable because they prove you and every other ignorant evolutionist wrong? And does it really matter what their Phd is in they are scientists that's who you believe in isn't it? You still have not shown me proof of a fossil record to prove evolution. Show a fossil that is in the process of evolution i.e. one species transforming into another.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course it matters what subject a scientist has a PHD in, Allen! A PHD in art doesn't mean anything to someone who is trying to be believable in the scientific field. Any child knows that.
  
  And your links prove nothing but how delusional you are. You like to use science when it benefits you--such as the technology you are using at the moment--but when it comes to interfering with your silly religious beliefs you want to disparage it. But tell me, what benefit do the worlds smartest humans get from faking scientific evidence? Your imaginary god is certainly not worth these brilliant people wasting their time faking things to prove him wrong. This is because there is nothing to show he is any more important than Santa Claus.
  
  I care not to try and prove anything to you. I live in the bible belt and am surrounded by those such as your self. I don't waste my time trying to prove anything to those incapable of understanding what most children can easily comprehend.
  
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CurtisJ75posted 12 years ago
Hey Godwin, it must be aggravating to have that name while claiming aeitheism. So you asked for proof of God, other than me snappin a glossy 8x10 of our hippie looking Jesus, you'll have to think on 4 or five facts that seem separate, but actually can be linked to an organized set of factual proof...jeez, there's so much. Let me see - oh that's right "the entire system your beloved specialists/experts is the Manifold Wisdom of God.

slap that into google one time and reading something positive for a change.
That's right, mathematics, on into physics, nuclear technology, all of the complex systems at work behind the scenes is actually a created blueprint set in motion by the Creator for hands-free control.

And why does God need hands-free technology - oh maybe the SCIENTIFIC fact that if the earth shifts just one degree left or right - we either burn or freeze to death.Yep just sittin up there killing all the humans He created - for the tinsey winsey job of only wanting true friends.

Why? He already knows the result of fake friends, in fact, this is why disease is so widespread - AIDS? definitely the result of sinful actions - being done directly to HIS face - that's when the cities got destroyed - Old Testamant.

to be in company with only those who had a PURE HEART - and I think you have one - in fact, here's another factual proof pic - God's Son endured every possible nasty thing known to mankind on the cross - AND THEN SOME, because He also went into hell for more than a day, and conquered satan, now pay attention, Christ also took back control to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, where Eve caused not just sin to enter earth, it also gave satan rule over all thngs under the sun.
Sorry to say but the former angel lucifer, the music leader in heaven, is now the doubtful part of your consiousness, and the main reason humans accept things easy as cattle - it's from being tricked - of course, you need proof right - the sad thing is you probly believe in the devil without needing proof.
But the fact your talking about God, and not being rude, well God's showing me, right now, that you have potential to see the truth for how this world operates and what is really going on. It seems like not more than three years and you'll start looking up, instead of down. (analogy)

So there's been over two thousand years for the bad guy/girl, whatever it is - to decieve mankind, progressively getting better at it. Hence the main reason why I have to write this much to illustrate - here I'll send it...finish with one more post - oh c'mon, if anything get a chuckle....
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1. 60
  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well Curtis, you start out being completely wrong in your very first sentence. Show me where I claimed to be an atheist anywhere on these forums and we'll talk.
  
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CurtisJ75posted 12 years ago
So I've said that Christ conquered death and took back the keys to the UNIVERSAL LAWS of true knowledge and evil. Which also leads to more proof of God the Creator, its written that He spent six days of actually creating - well when the foundation, rock, granite, massive land formations forming the Earth - it was done with God Speed - there have been many groups of scientists that have set out to disprove the Bible and they all end up proving the facts. One of the most important facts is the amount of prophesies written about Jesus 1500 years before He even walked the earth. Over 400 prophesies almost two thousand years old - came true during Christ life - this has been proven to conclude that the Bible is the only true living document, impossible to have been written without God's direction.

Ten years ago a scientific expedition had a team of five drilling at separate, but very distant locations, going close to a mile down - what they found is a glaze on the granite that could only be caused from intense, rapidly disappearing heat, from land coming into existence at sound of God's "let there be land" command. That's right - it's in a documentary called Evidences for Creation.

They actually built a simulated earth habitat, like in BioDome - that had all of the things mentioned in the bible before sin was introduced. This is Important because before sin the earth was even more majestic, the celestial bodies(planets&stars) actually made harmonic sounds audible to Adam just after being created. There were no predators because it wasn't needed - Adam (1st Human) spoke of a pink/purple magenta that filled the morning skies - and the biodome scientists realized there was less oxygen and more carbon back before sin altered the earth's surfaces. In fact the reduction of O2, mixing the air quality close enough to biblical statements, effectively creating a scaled living version of the world and it's animals
- Birds, snakes, lions, owls, some pure rivals introduced as well, along with fish..;well the scientists couldn't figure out why known enemies weren't killing each other, and they never seemed hungry. It turns out that the sin-free air quality proved a physical reaction to eliminate violence.

This leads into more proof of why scientists accept Darwinism and evolution over the facts of creation.
When the Earth was flooded for all that time, destroying the unsavable humans - the affects of lasting sin, which is anything that negatively affects what has been created - like moss on trees, vines on other trees and plants, rust, corrosion, disease, the earth became tainted, far from the paradise it was - So the main POINT HERE IS THE SAMPLES SCIENTISTS USE for carbon dating, are not accurate representations of the original earth. It is as simple as tainted evidence - actually tampered-with evidence because the evil one has made sure to destroy all that will keep humans' eyes off of the truth, which makes us the mortal lifespan of flesh-controlled lives with dying bodies entangled with the importance of having good and safe times, avoiding pain and injuries, caring so much for only what's in front of us because that's how the ruler of this world programmed it. Relying on the self, not realizing there's an entirely unseen world, battling for your attention.

I really - really tried to put myself as an animal. namely an ape, but even though darwin noticed some adaptive reactions in animals, prolonging their lives or survival rate - it's just not possible that humans, which are created to be the only one of you ever to live here, so you can realize that is how much effort He put into your creation - that's right you are the only you to ever be here - there's no dead replicas -that weren't survivable as the fittest. There's no missing link from ape to man - because we were created from the soil/clay of this earth- with God's breath breathed into us as the life force.

Humans are the only beings that lose weight at the time of death - 20 grams- the apparent amount our spirit weighs while on earth.
Dogs have personalities, but they are not eternal beings like us. There will be similar animals in heaven, probly the same type you had here.

So we have Christ taking back dominion of the earth after defeating all the forces of negativity in hell, after being beaten for hours - the third day famously witnessed by over fifty people, walks out that grave cave, a brand new chapter begins - because now He knows everything a human can experience - which He didn't know in the Old Testament - causing Him to anger easily at his pitiful humans, but since Christ paid that earthquaking and the heavens-shaking completely true of heart-sacrifice anyone or thing could ever hope to do.

He is the only person to ever have lived as human and a God, been perfect as both, AND does not have bones in the ground, meaning He is an eternal being that

And I'm not joking when I say He would do it gain if everyone was decieved by the devil and it was only you left on earth to save- yep - He would go through that suffering again - even just for one of His children.

Alright! I should publish this huh!! I written about only facts of God, no opinions or preaching, but one principle needs to shine through because it is a UNIVERSAL LAW whether you believe it or not, which is seed, time, and harvest. The Godly life has an order that is comparable to farming. Research the keywords seed, time, and harvest, and the ways in which we receive godly instruction will become clear.
Except the unsaved cannot understand the Revelation Knowledge in the Bible - and I know first hand as it was only after being saved - that when reading, whole wolrds of understanding opened up and I experienced the realization that God was teaching me, rather the Holy Spirit, here on earth, guiding me as I read any parts of the Bible.
I see it as a body we have, then a mind or soul, but then a spirit which is indestructable, created by the Almighty as eternal beings.

Like right now I really want to stop writing but there's another point that someone will benefit from reading, I can see it plain as day, and need to mention the big picture about the big bang theory, it is just 100% impossible to have such order, and intelligent operational languages like physics and all of the mathematical disciplines showing proof of order - simply impossible stemming from an explosion.

Another principle is God set forth everything affecting our lives like gravity keeping us from flying into space, radio waves providing communications, all of these are laws that are in place on autopilot,there or us to learn with.

And much like gravity holding us to the ground without force, The Almighty is waiting patiently at the "door" waiting for you to knock in your search for truth - as a gentleman, not commanding anything against your free will as a ruling dictator.
So I'm far beyond self-conscious, never written in length on this subject - but I can tell there are some people that needed the clarifications.

SO, I've blasted out an entire page or two!!! Well - sorry it was your space, I'm sure you'll delete it pretty soon, no prob - I started with responding to your post - and then it grew into writing with a diverse group with multiple races and cultures in mind - anyway, this is the proof. I wouldn't have taken this time unless I knew for sure of its facts because i have experienced the presence of God, and can say that Intelligent design is what holds the world together as more things happen, leading our existence toward enlightenment - or destruction.
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  STATEMENT OF THE TRUE FAITH AND HOLY PRAYER FOR ALL ATHEIST READERS IN THESE FORUMS IN JESUS' ALMIGHTY HOLY NAME - AMEN :
  
  "God is A Spirit and He IS Eternally Present Everywhere. He IS The Invisible, Almighty Creator of The Universe and The Father of JESUS Christ, The Redeeming Lord In Heaven.
  
  Father God, In The Precious Holy Name of Thy Son JESUS, we HAVE ploughed, seeded and watered these self-confessed lost souls in this arena. We love them and we Know that You Love them MORE.
  
  Release them ALL In Thy Holy Timing, LORD God. Release them from the evil clutches of satan, By Shining Thy Perfect Light Upon the Planted Seeds, and Father, In JESUS' Holy Name, Please GIVE THE INCREASE, and Save their Souls, For The Glory of Your Son and the defeat of The Devil and to Honour The Work of Thy sons, daughters and servants herein. Thank You JESUS. Thank You JEHOVAH, Thank You Blessed Holy Ghost - Amen & Amen"
  
  † 1 Timothy 1 : 17 †
  
  "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
  
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2. 60
  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who are you responding to? We've heard this garbage a 1000 times on here. The creation sites you visit will not help you learn about scientific facts, dude. Talk to the person who posts all of the colorful text and pictures below your post. I'm sure it will be glad to share fantasies with you about creationism. No intelligent person cares to waste their time on this nonsense.
  
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  Elijah7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Inteelllliegeent???
  
  DURR....
  
  All your cattle came from NOWHERE...
  
  Ever heard of the ORIGINAL PAIRS OF EACH SPECIES IN THE BEGINNING...
  
  Even our Golden Retriever KNOWS THIS.....
  
  Woof....
  
  Randy - watch THIS video (3.5 minutes) UNLESS YOU ARE SCARED ??
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIm85YuplJ8
  
  † Genesis 2 : 7 †
  
  "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
  
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aravindb1982posted 12 years ago
The fact of the matter is, everything is divine - you , me everything that we see around. Experience this oneness with everything and you experience the divine. What one calls God, the other calls consciousness, science calls conscious energy and so on.

God or energy or Beauty, or Awareness is an experience that is highly personal...

If you have delved into the latest String theory, you will understand what am saying. String theory is not yet fully accepted as scientific. But the magic is, if one has faith in its postulates and does calculations, it indeed yields perfect results. But there is no way of 'scientifically' verifying its postulates. So, what does one do when 'faith' seems to provide solutions while lack of it and failure to use the equations does not?

String Theory is God - as you and me are also.

If you are seriously interested in this question, search for it with intensity in the realms of experience. Like the taste of any food which only has to be experienced, God or Energy or Awareness or Consciousness ( call it anything else that you like - the devil also) has to be experienced.

NO amount of discussion will help...

Hope that helps....

Love and Light
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60
Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
If you consider the fact that the biblical description of God is identical to the scientific description of Energy, then, I would suggest that, Yes, there is scientific evidence of God. The scientists don't want to admit it, and, strangely, religion doesn't want to admit it either...I think they like to argue.
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