I just posted the following answer to a discussion I'm having on one of my hubs. Here's what I said.
What's your response?
What can I say in response. Your observations are indeed accurate. My only reason for mentioning the expectation of perfection is because, having communicated with many atheists in the forums, that's seems to be their main objection to the witness Christians/believers have.
If they REALLY displayed Christian values, IE, be like Christ, then they may be listened to.
I agree that many "nominal" Christians don't stand up for what is right, often enough, but, at the end of the day, each one has their own struggles, limitations and failures. We are called to live by faith, under grace, and love others as ourselves. Indeed, we can all use more of theses values. I know I can.
But all this doesn't change, for a moment, the truth about Jesus Christ, the Word of God, and the power of the Gospel to humanity. It's not me, ultimately, that I want people to see, but Him. I know I need to be a better reflection of Him, and I'm working on it, but I don't "beat myself up" for not quite achieving the set standard.
He forgives me, so I must forgive myself, and others.
I am here, I will be gone some day, but the Truth was here before me, with me, and will continue to be after me. It's bigger than I am, or all of us put together. That's what should be focused on, and not what Christians do, don't do, or half do. Nor is it about Atheists do's and don'ts, either. We are all passing away, and each one needs to find their destiny. I recon Eternal life is a worthy end to pursue. And a worthwhile message to share. Not all will accept. That's life!
I'll be honest. Even though I strongly disagree with Christianity's understanding of the truth Jesus shared, your response appears loving and kind. You appear to be a good Christian to me. In as much as I've always defined good Christian as one who sees their own limitations and the struggle they are supposed to work on, within themselves. Not focus on the problems they perceive in others. You've got a thumbs up from me.
Here is your problem dj - threatening me with eternal damnation vs eternal life if I don't believe garbage is what causes all the wars.
You have nothing to offer. You do not know some clever stuff that I do not because I do not accept garbage. Your message is nonsense. If you stopped "sharing it" we would not have the conflict. Yet you refuse to do this - why?
Sorry - you have no authority and do not understand your majik book.
Eternal life? How silly.
Not to mention boring.
This is what causes all the fights - your insistence that you know some majik that I don't. And all I need to do is get on my knees and accept the nonsense you are offering.
"Here is your problem dj - threatening me with eternal damnation vs eternal life if I don't believe garbage is what causes all the wars."
How can you be threatened if as you say God doesn't exist?
You mean that there is some truth to what we say in your mind??
Because if what we say carries no truth in your mind, then you shouldn't be offended.. At least if you're rational.
I'm not afraid of death just because you don't believe in God..
"If you stopped "sharing it" we would not have the conflict. Yet you refuse to do this - why?"
He is simply sharing his opinion of which he has a right to do underneath the constitution.
You want to take that right away from him.
"This is what causes all the fights - your insistence that you know some majik that I don't."
What causes the "fights" is that you "insist" that you get to decide who can "share" their opinion and who cannot.
You telling him what to do shows you think he is not equal to you, which was the problem that started slavery.
Do you want to tell dj what to do, and make him your slave?
Or do you want to be another person on the forums who doesn't agree with slavery?
The main objection is that your beliefs are false. PERIOD.
Do you mean values like this:
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
So if nothing changes this TRUTH, it seems the word of God is horrible, and Jesus is a monster for agreeing with such a psychotic irrational murdering father.
Yes you have gotten us to see him. He apparently is a delusional psychotic, simultaneously preaching love, while agreeing with his insane psychopathic Father of the Old Testament.
People who want to share their religious views with you, almost never want you to share yours with them.
I'm glad you shared your opinion.
God set that day apart for a reason. It was for God. After all, seeing as God gave them everything they have all He commanded was one day of devotion a week..
And even then the commandment was to what??? REST..
How awful of God..
God says do something and He demanded they listen, just as when an employer tells you to do something you do it or are fired. You don't call the boss horrible.
The employer gave you a job, and is entitled to take it away for not listening.
God gave you life, and is entitled to take it away for not listening.
I understand your dislike that God has requirements, we all start that way like when we are told we can't eat candy all day, or are told to take a nap.. We don't want to as children.
And it baffles me that you say God doesn't exist, and then speak about Him as if He does.. You can't have it both ways.
If He isn't real, and death is the end. Yes it is cruel. But then again the commandment wouldn't be there, because these people seen all the miracles God enacted through Moses.
They KNEW He was real. You think they would follow this stuff if they didn't KNOW God is real???
The fact in itself that they followed the laws God gave them to the T is proof that they knew God is real.
You don't just follow some goofball that gives you some super strict commands by God to follow if God isn't around..
They knew God was there. And that He spoke through Moses, because through Moses they seen the power of God.
And if God is real just as they knew, then I wouldn't question the person that gave you everything you have.
Maybe you would, but that is your choice.. They certainly agreed with me..
That must be some new and unusual definition of the word, "gave" which is to have transferred the possession of something to someone else.
If we are given life, then it should be ours. If it is something the giver can take away at any time, then we never really took possession of it in the first place.
Well stated Beezle! No wonder some here hate the very ground you tread!
Nonsense. I love Beelzebub..
At least he doesn't drop to simplistic non-objective posting.
Actually it is above..
"Well stated Beezle! No wonder some here hate the very ground you tread!"
Brown nosing is partially objective, but it seems more like you dancing in another person's well stated argument.
"Nonsense. I love Beelzebub..
At least he doesn't drop to simplistic non-objective posting."
This was objective. Correcting your statement that we hate Beelzedad.
When in fact we do not. That was a false statement.
You talking about me brown nosing is somewhat ironic.
Isn't that what religionists do all day to avoid being destroyed by their god?
I have been called a lot of things in my life, but that is a new one.
Still it is more about motive than truth isn't it?
"That must be some new and unusual definition of the word, "gave" which is to have transferred the possession of something to someone else.
If we are given life, then it should be ours. If it is something the giver can take away at any time, then we never really took possession of it in the first place."
You mean your job isn't your job?
Your employer can take that at any time he wishes under circumstances of lack of competence.
But you still say the employer "gave" you a job...
We certainly don't say "leased" you a job..
So, even though I provided you with the definition of "gave" above, you ignored it and continued on in your line of confusion.
An employee does not own his job, the employer did not transfer the possession of ownership to the employee. The employer owns everything that the employee uses in doing their job as well as the job title and everything that goes with it. Clear now?
God owns everything you use and under conditions of disobedience (one rule, don't eat one type of fruit) the "life" was taken back.
God even told them the specification ahead of time, you know, like a job requirement but much easier. The day you eat thereof you will surely die.. (paraphrased)
And you should address my question. Do you not say an employer "gave" you a job?
I see your definition. And your only partly right spattering around in your own line of confusion.
Gave | Define Gave at Dictionary.com
–verb simple past tense of give.
Definitions of give
1. pass something to somebody: to place something that you are holding in the temporary possession of another person
2. grant something to somebody: to allow somebody to have something such as power or a right
3. communicate something: to impart or convey something such as information, advice, or opinions to somebody
Don't get upset because I disagree. That is the purpose of the forum.
I think your full understanding of the definition needs revision..
Then, if he owns our lives, we don't.
I did address it, see my previous post.
Really. My confusion.
That's funny, nowhere in there do those definitions agree with your employer/employee example.
"Then, if he owns our lives, we don't."
But you are granted life under conditions.
I know plenty of examples.
Give your child a bike.
Condition: Don't ride on the highway..
Bike is the child's, so long as he meets the condition.
Child rides on highway. Bike ownership transferred back to parents, locked and stored in garage.
Agrees completely with THE definition as those are not my definitions.
Temporary possession of "something"... Life, bike, job... A job is a thing right? Something?
Definitions of thing (n)
1. object: an inanimate object
2. unspecified item: an unnamed or unspecified object
3. occurrence: something that occurs, or something that is done
Looks like it is. Under number three right there..
And under number two of the definitions for give, grant is to allow a privilege.. It absolutely agrees with the employer/employee example.
Your employer will gladly tell you it is a "privilege" to work there and he can gladly walk you to the door if you don't like the job.
You are "granted" the privilege of working there.
You are "granted" the privilege of life.
Perhaps, but that is still different from having had the life transferred possession over to you. The life isn't yours if someone else places conditions on its use. It still must be their life and not yours.
Bike ownership is never transferred to the child but is always owned by the parent if the parent so chooses to invoke conditions on it's use.
Take another example, you can give any other person a bike and attempt to impose the same conditions, but will most likely never get the bike back if the conditions aren't met, simply because that other person will tell you straight out that you gave the bike to them, that you transferred the ownership.
Using a parent/child example was very weak.
In other words, you own absolutely nothing. The privilege you speak of is the use of the employers tools and assets in exchange for money and benefits.
Hence, you own nothing. You are granted to use a life owned by your god.
I have already stated we were "granted" to use a life ultimately owned by God.
Which falls under number two of the definitions for give, the present tense of gave.
Consider the ownership I speak of the ownership to the rights, also under number two of the definition of give, to use the life.
Therefore I will rest at God owns everything, and "grants" us ownership to the "rights" by which we use the life that He owns, under particular conditions.
And that even fits your last statement there.
Exactly, we own nothing. We are not granted ownership, we are granted the "use" of something owned by someone else, which in this case is a life, based on your own words that "God owns everything."
What's even harder to believe than that is the fact we are having this one dimensional conversation.
Yes your God is awful. You don't think demanding my death just for working on a certain stupid weekday is horrible? Where are your morals?
If the employer fired me for insubordination, then that would be reasonable, but if he demanded my death for insubordination, then he would be nothing but horrible, just like the beast you so fearfully serve.
What a nonsensical childish worldview!
There is no God, therefore God(an imaginary entity)has no requirements; however psychotics do believe that their imaginations are real.
No one is talking about your nonsensical God as if He exists. I'm talking about your absurd beliefs. Your God cannot and does not exist, but psychosis does.
Do you recognize this willful ignorance, and abject childish gullibility?
Yet that is exactly what you and other gullible believers are doing...blindly!
More GULLIBLE nonsense.
A good christian answer..
But Christianity follows antichrist doctrine...
If a christian was to follow christ he would not be a christian but christ and need not o the things that belongs to christianity.
That's too deep for a mere mortal like me to grasp!
So, you ARE Christ, are you?
He did say many will come saying they are Him. He also warned us how to deal with that eventuality.
it is written many shall come in his name.....Jesus an deceive many...
Does that apply to me....if so then what is my doctrine....Am I many or One?
I know you do not know my doctrine cause I have no doctrine except the one that is taught to me by the Christ in me...
Just as it was taught by the Christ in Jesus
... an even if I tell it to you , you would not believe it any way...cause you do not have ears to hear....
Pointing fingers at people about who has ears to hear?
Wouldn't you need to know the heart of a man to determine that?
See him as God sees him?
The Spirit of Christ sees all knows all.. and will judge righteous judgements...
...your book should have taught you that did it not?
So why do you seek to critersize....Why not instead seek to find the ears that will Hear...?
Well said Kess.
Creator only judges righteousness and the judgments of righteousness --to determine their value/reward.
I just had a long discord with someone who was strongly convinced Creator judges by The Law (of Sin/Death) when in truth He doesn't even look at sin in any form. He only looks at righteousness. Which I know kills people to here, since they have been fed the lie of Hell, Fire & Brimstone which resulted in millions becoming either fearful, bitter or angry and such.
I'm not trying to criticize you kess.
I'm just saying that we can't know everything about another man.
I'm not saying there aren't indications that make some obvious.. But...
What I am saying is that telling someone that they don't have ears to hear is saying they can't understand..
And it seems to me kind of like telling them that they cannot understand and are doomed.
Many people don't have ears to hear for many many years of their life.
And then they finally hear and understand, meaning it's hard to say that someone doesn't have ears to hear.
It may be your partly right sometimes, but then again they may just be stubborn and not using those ears even though they have them...
Just a thought though.
Don't misinterpret what Kess is portraying.
He is correct.
Christ is Anointing.
All who are the sons of Creator are Christ.
Even as the text says: I in you, you in me --no division;
As the Father and Immanu El (Creator In Us) is unified, so are all who are Christ (Anointed).
As the text says: "Be like the Father In Every Way."
The only Way to do that is to abandon all doctrine, unite with Creator under His methods and be consumed by the Fire of the Spirit (filled with the Breathe of Life; the Anointing) and outwardly expressing that Life by the Work/Evidence of Faith (the work/evidence of faith is righteousness, right thinking and judging/discerning by righteousness, and only righteousness)
There is a problem with us being "Christ"...
Definition of Christ:
the Messiah: according to the Bible, a savior who will come to deliver God's chosen people
Jesus "Christ" is Jesus the "Messiah" meaning we cannot be "Christ" but "Christians" which means we follow the "Messiah's" teachings...
Christianity cannot be separated from Christ. It is a word coined from the fact of people believing in and trying to be like Christ. ie Christ-like. (Like the Messiah)
You cannot BE another person. You can only BE LIKE THEM.
And that is exactly what a Christian puts all his or her effort into.
(You can call yourself whatever you want. It's what you do that makes you who you are.)
Believing in Christ Jesus and following His example.
As off the wall as kess' posts can be at times he gets it a whole lot better than christians.
Yes. We get that you think you can "be" Christ..
I don't. But I get that you seek to be god.
You really don't understand do you??
I mean you actually don't get it?
Or do you think that crap is true?
And if you think God is real. You wouldn't respect Him enough to capitalise the G in His name?
We capitalise the first letter of a person's name. And God doesn't deserve such respect?
To an extent it is true vector. I realize sometimes his posts come off odd, but essentially he has searched within. Not attempted to fabricate an external reality. I don't think his concept of christ is the same as yours. You shouldn't take offense. You simply don't understand.
I don't take offence..
I stated we cannot be Christ. (Notice the capital C?) Only like Him.
I'm guessing you really don't believe in God or Christ much. But that IS my opinion no doubt.
I don't need to fabricate an external reality.. It's already there.
The Bible clearly states Jesus Christ "ascended" into Heaven and people watched as He did after His bodily resurrection..
I suppose He was "ascending" into the kingdom "within us"...
The kingdom of God is an actual kingdom.. God is not a thought. He is a reality..
And God is everywhere, He can speak to whomever He so desires at any time.
And I understand fully. I stated what I believed did not make sense.. And you've turned it into an "offence" and "You simply don't understand."
Why? Because I disagreed? You have nothing but "You simply don't understand." ??
You should start objectively stating what you think.. and why you think what you thing.
Not tell people that they are this or that or the other. You have no clue what I understand. I'm not sure you know what you understand because you refuse to state your understanding in words 90% of the time.
It gets very annoying to consistently hear repeated the same old tiresome accusations with nothing explained behind it.
Just random "You simply don't understand." statements. And I could pull a million out of these forums..
Give your opinion..
Give your reasons..
And quit telling me what "I" am and know.
What I know is already posted or will be if you would take your eyes off of me for two seconds and address the OP and subjects of the posts therein...
You are one odd little cookie. I like that, on some levels. Others? Not so much. Capitalize whatever you want. I'll do the same. And, for goodness sake, stop being so dramatic. If you choose to take everything in life literally, you miss the important points.
I do not seek followers. You do. Which is why you feel the need to post so much scripture. And I only feel the need to speak my mind.
Finding truth has nothing to do with convincing the world you are right. I don't profess to be right for you, or anyone else. But I did study the bible long enough to know you are blinded by preconceived notions and you refuse to accept the reality of the world you live in. When you post fallacies, in direct contradiction of known facts, this is not following any god, or a son of one. And if you truly believe they exist you do them a grave disservice by this behavior.
You are following a dream handed to you by someone else. Nothing more. What you believe in isn't real.
Let me HELP YOU.
You don't read ANYTHING..
"You are one odd little cookie."
(no objective point)
"I do not seek followers. You do."
(no base or reason)
"Which is why you feel the need to post so much scripture."
(no base or logical reason)[goes back to having no base for me seeking followers]
"But I did study the bible long enough to know you are blinded by preconceived notions..."
(no base or reason)
"When you post fallacies..."
(no quote or base)
"And if you truly believe they exist you do them a grave disservice by this behavior."
(no quote or base)
"You are following a dream handed to you by someone else. Nothing more."
(no base, and you have no clue what you're talking about)
"What you believe in isn't real."
(no indication you understand what it is I believe. No reason why what you didn't state isn't real)
This is JUST your above post. I could do that all day with you.
It is a waste of my time to read anything you post. You give no reasons for anything.
You state degrading statements with no base or reasoning to them.
You don't back anything you say up with anything.
You just blurt out random statements you muster up in your imagination that suit your purpose...
Like where is your reason for stating that I seek to be God?
Got a quote??
You have no reasons.. For anything you say.
But vector, that's the point. Neither do you. Quoting the bible is simply you stating your opinion.
What a load of garbage. Now the Bible is my opinion..
It is your opinion as to the meaning of the text. I get it though. You're always right.
When I said that Truth was here before me, with me, and will still be here after me, it was NOT my opinion. It may look like it, because I paraphrased it, putting it into my own words. The actual text I was using is;
Matthew 24:35 - "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Jesus speaking.
The meaning of the text is not always open to debate, as far as meaning is concerned.
Sorry dj. I thought I had responded to vector. I've always considered you thoughtful and even minded on the text. You are right. It is all open to interpretation. I think the way you interpret it is a reflection of who you are. Those who preach a faith of exclusion need to look to your example.
No offence taken.
I was merely using your post as a way of answering this ongoing thing of opposing interpretations. I believe it can cause unnecessary conflicts between people relying too much on their own POV.
As I said, some things just can't be interpreted to mean opposing views.
In my example, Jesus said what He said clearly, unambiguously, and simply. You can't make it say something it does not.
Well, since that too appears to be open to interpretation within the confines of Christianity it always left me to wonder.
I always believed that since everyone didn't agree the only logical default position was to look to the example of Jesus. I know of no instance where he was anything but lovng and kind, except when dealing with the hard hearts of the religionists of his time. I just never could see a different attitude within him than that.
I think you answered your own question.
Look to Jesus every time! We humans will always show our humanity, and limitations.
After all, our goal is to be LIKE Him. Some of us are further from that goal than others, but I haven't met one yet that WAS at the goal. Mercy and grace (and lots of love) is what we live by in the meantime. Let's extend it to as many others as we can!
I can guess you expect to have some sly response as this is very off subject.
But I do because it is correct to do so. They are names, and names use capital first letters as they are a reference to a person.
A person is a proper noun and proper nouns have capitalized first characters.
You could have also taken a minute to review my posts rather than ask a question of which the answer would have been obvious had you looked.
Off the wall it will always appear..
Cause in the world which is the False the Christ (Truth ) will always appear to be the strange....
When man quits justifying himself by the standard which the world has adopted unto it self...then you will see clearly an understand the things I say...and at that time you begin to walk not by the sight of the eyes but By th Spirit of Christ and you will not need me to tell you nothing.
Honestly kess, I'm not in need of you telling me anything; but I do enjoy your posts.
That's nothing, wait till he tells you what he believes about women. Oi vay!
Yes, I've read his thoughts on the matter. I stand by my convictions on what causes that type of mentality in men.
Have you seen truly seen such a mentality in men...?
If you did then sureky you did not profiit much by it... for any man who understand the mystery of maleness and femaleness would have also explained to you the beginning and the end......
For it by this the government of all things rest.....and the one who discovers this will no longer be feminine by nature but masculine.
So i suggest that you check your understaning that you may know.
I understand quite well. Thanks a bunch for asking. I read your comments on the subject on other threads.
Ah, the A-O. First and last. Beginning and end. One in front leading, the other at the rear, poking the last bloke in line with the pitchfork. Until every single sheep is in the pen.
Are you saying that you're sexist?
Everybody is in line...and each of them are exactly half male, half female. Wouldn't have it any other way.
OK, that is not very good work, but an improvement, so as it is early Saturday morning here and I am free as a bee, I will have a coffee and watch this!
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