Questioning the concept of Free Will

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t.keeleyposted 15 years ago
I love it. I could post passage after passage and still be ignored.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  not by me man! please keep them coming!
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
I posted proof that God has forgiven everyone regardless of what they believe. I think that is worth repeating. I received a lot of criticism for telling Mark that he isn't going to Hell, or rather, that God assures me that Mark isn't going to Hell. I'll say it again to Mark and any other atheist or non-Christian - You are forgiven no matter what you believe.

There is no need to fear! Live your life and be happy because that is ultimately the only thing God wants.

I'm stepping in to the arena where so many people spread fear. I'm stepping in and spreading God's true goodness.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  where is the proof?
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  godofthisworldposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good work maestrowhit, you have learned well.
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  VOICE of CHRISTposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Get thee behind me!
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  godofthisworldposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ]
  
  MAESTROWHIT 3:16 (M.W. Translation)
  
  16 For satan so hates the world that he gave his only begotten son (maestrowhit) that whosoever believeth in him should not live but have everlasting death.
  17 for satan sent not his son into the world to save the world , but that the world through him might be deceived into eternal damnation.
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
By the way everybody, I found a Bible resource that, in my opinion, is better than Biblegateway. Here it is

www.blueletterbible.com

I am really impressed with this site
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The bible is the same, no matter which website it is on, and thumbs up to any endeavor to make it available.........
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Lady Guinevereposted 15 years ago
Well I have read over al the comments since yestarday and am seeing some progress here with sme of you. Name calling has come into play and some love and some agreements and still some disagreements. Now I have the free will to do this or not, so I chose to do this. Maestro is a kind person who knows much more then waht he is telling us. SS is someone who wants tangeable proof that what is said is real....only I don't think he is going to get that. BB, well he just likes to pick for the fun of it to get reactions...not so bad when he wanst to stay in the game or conversation........Mohis (India _sorry I can't spell you name today)--we are alike in most ways in seeing all that is...VP well a tad bit sensitive there (remember sometimes you need a push to get out of the comfort box and I am not telling this to you to bring bad feelings---I was told this a long time ago too).Sandra.I lke her style too....Sirdent.well I just like him period, we might not agree with things, but he has always shown love and kindness whenever we did disagree-he has a calming ability and I like that..........Did I miss anyone, I be sorry for that. If I am not on target---which wouldn't matter anyway becasue you all are a great group of people

We can't see things becasue we are not on the same plane of existance to do that. I posted something a bit ago in here that was totally overlooked. That is fine, my fist one was overlooked too......Oh which reminds me of t, keeley---I didn't overlook you, there is just too many tings going on here and I for one have a slight problem with that.......

I will be gone for today or maybe even tomorrow--not tired with the thread, just think I am getting the flu..............................
carry on dude!!!
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I already have the proof, it's in my spirit...... been nice chatting wid u.........i pray that u get feeling better soon...........God speed
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t.keeleyposted 15 years ago
I'm still ignored.

Eph. 2
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
This seems to be the appropriate time to bring up this question -

Why is it SO important to us whether free will does or doesn't truely exist?

I came at this subject as it pertains to Christianity. Since 80 percent of Americans claim to believe in God, and roughly 77 percent believe in Jesus, I'd say the free will issue holds extreme significance in the United States, and also in the rest of the world. Mark mentioned an aspect of the free will question that also has a major effect in the world outside of religion.

But my main concern is free will within Christian theology. I believe it is a false theology that is unscriptural and evil.

Christians who preach this false theology would have people to believe that they have to do something in order to be saved. They say that God will save you, but you have to meet Him half way. This puts a condition on God's love. They claim to be saved because of a decision they made; because of an act of free will that occured in their hearts. They preach that others are required to do the same thing they did, or else they will be punished.

But there is no way to explain to a person HOW to do this thing that needs to be done for one's salvation. Every Christian preaching this choice-idea will explain it differently. There is no solid, clear way to describe this inside act that will save one's soul. And this leaves questioning, needing people, who reach out to the church for answers, in fear and uncertainty. How are they to know that they did it right? How do you accept something that you cannot see or feel or even define? Can you explain that to me?

Preachers of free will want to assume that everyone in the world is just as capable as they are to perform this indistinguishable heart-action. The best word to use to describe that assumption is - ignorant. Would it be easy for a thirty year old muslim devotee, born and raised a Muslim, to change his faith over to Christianity? Anyone who says that would be easy, or anything less than virtually impossible, is obviously lacking in mental acuteness. It would be just as impossible for me to cross over to Hinduism from my current religious standpoint. I was built from the ground up in the United States, in a culture where Eastern religious concepts were as alien as green men from mars. That's what Christianity looks like to a born and raised, non-progressive, ordinary, common Muslim living in the Mid-East. How interested is the ordinary, run-of-the-mill Christian in Eastern religious doctrines?

This is an important topic because there are SO many people who have been brainwashed to think that they have to DO something or else they will be eternally damned. Lack of clarity on HOW to do this breeds fear, and fear breeds all sorts of ugly behaviors. God's Spirit is not a tricky one. He does not give us a puzzle that only the most studious can figure out and benefit from. That is an evil deception that turns people away from Him.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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sandra rinckposted 15 years ago
So that is how it works, alright! I now accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior.

Great! Phew, now I can rest easy knowing that I just got myself a oneway ticket to Heaven. Uh oh, watch out Heaven, Sandra is on her way!!! Christians better watch out, I doutb they will like me up there either but at least I get to say, yeah huh, God, what say you?

And then God will say, oh boy, it never ends. lol.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Luke 13:3
  I tell you, No; but unless you repent ( change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins), you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I tell you what, you repent and then I will repent. If you wont, then I wont either. Unless of course by accepting J.C, you are now exempt from the repentance clause.
  
  My God said: Whateva!!!
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Ben Bushposted 15 years ago
Maestro,

Jesus said in John 7:24, "Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

It's easy, no, it's too easy, to take a verse or small group of verses that seem to be saying something and accept them apart from another verse or group which say the exact opposite. Taking either one in exclusion of the other leads to an extreme view that is also untrue.

This can be done in many areas of life. In each case, it tends to be non-sensical, but more importantly, it is impractical. This is especially true in the area of religion and more specifically, the Bible.

The Bible cannot support Gnosticism absent an extreme perversion of many plain texts in Scripture. And your beliefs are Gnostic at the core.

And you process of examination of various Scriptures is entirely one sided. It fails to exercise the process of "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" found in your most cited section of 1Corinthians, chapter 2. You fail to compare your stated spiritual exercise of God "drawing" men to Himself with the responsibility of man to "choose, reject, believe, not believe" God once he has been drawn to God.

You have also failed to view the Word of God as Truth according to the specific words of Christ. You have elevated your experiences above the Word of God when Paul tells us that experiences are not to be believed absent confirmation from the Word.

You have also failed to exercise due diligence to test the spirit or spirits speaking to you. This is a command of Scripture and you "seem" unwilling to follow through with this Biblical command. Why? Surely, the Holy Spirit is not afraid of being questioned and confirmed according to His Own Word, is he?

Please be reminded that the Scriptures are Eastern in their origin. It's not an East-West dichotomy regarding Truth. Truth is Truth just as much in the East as in the West, regardless of the cultural mores being dealt with. Error is the same also. And God is not against taking a cultural example of Truth or error and using it if it contains the proper and essential elements.

And the important question doesn't have to do with the importance placed on free will by men, but whether free will actually exists and can be demonstrated from Scripture.

Deal with the core issues. Don't get sidetracked. If you can't, then you have demonstrated nothing, except that God is a murderer, who, if God acts pursuant to His own laws, must execute Himself as a murderer.

Which leaves us with??????????....................Mark!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see where you're getting some of this. How have I failed to view the Word of God as truth? Where does paul say that in scripture (about our experiences not being believed absent...) Show me.
  
  Can you show me how I've failed to see both sides? I've acknowledged both sides through this entire thread. Don't make accusations unless you can support them. There is a lot of that going on in this forum.
  
  How can you say that I've failed to test the Spirit? I mean, honestly, how can you make that allegation? I'm really curious.
  
  I stated the importance of free will that led me start this thread. I'm not getting sidetracked; I'm getting more ON track.
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The first is from Galatians chapter 1:
  
  6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
  
  7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
  
  8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
  
  9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
  
  1Corinthians 11
  
  3.But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
  
  4.For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
  
  The next is First John Chapter 4:
  
  1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
  
  2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
  
  3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
  
  You've acknowledged both sides when it comes to Scripture, but you have magnified the importance of one side to the practical exclusion of the other.
  
  The Spirit told me?:
  
  I make that statement based on your lack of response to that particualr point about testing the spirits when you asked about the Scripture reference and it was already included in my response.
  
  Also, you have continued to espouse the same thing throughout this thread, which the Holy Spirit would not teach.
  
  I'm sorry, but when God is concluded to be a murderer according to Scripture, your world is off track. You have doctrinally derailed and plunged into the abyss of error, sincere motivations notwithstanding.
  
  My only question is, "Why do you choose to persist in your error?"
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My whole point on this forum, and in my life, is that your version of the Gospel is false. We are not saved by a personal choice. God does all the saving. We don't do any of it. You seem to be saying that I'm presenting a gospel that is different from what Christ taught. I'm saying the same about you. That is already established. There is no point in you quoting these scriptures unless you can show me how what I'm saying is not the true Gospel. We all already know that I think you're wrong and you think I'm wrong. These scriptures can be directed both ways. Now that you've accused me, it is on you to show me how I am speaking an alternate Gospel from the true one. I've already done that, concerning you and the rest of them, and it was ignored. I can go pull it up again if you'd like.
  
  I am preaching the true Christ, and you are not. I've showed clearly how I come to this conclusion, all you've showed is that you've come to a conclusion - but not HOW.
  
  You, and the rest of the free will preachers, have done just what verse three is talking about. You have complicated the simple message of Jesus, which is that God's grace saves. Youve added to it the condition that we must do part of the salvation job ourselves.
  The next is First John Chapter 4:
  
  You aren't saying anything here. Am I missing something. I've already stated my belief in Jesus several times.
  
  The Holy Spirit has and does preach the message I am spreading, and I've given scriptural proof to back that up for your benefit.
  
  Look, enough already about God being a murderer. Anyone with a pre-school knowledge about the Old Testament stories can tell you about the Great Flood, where God killed all of humanity except just a handful of people. And when God destroyed the entire cities of Sodom and Gamorrah. Do I need to go on? Are you telling me that wasn't the same kind of murder you're so endlessly babbling about?
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, actually you haven't detailed this Jesus you believe in. I would be interested in hearing the details of this Jesus who fails to allow men to possess the free will to choose. I am sure that since you preach this gospel, you will be more than eager to detail this precious Jesus you serve. Please, tell us who this Jesus is, the Jesus revealed to you by your spirit guide.
  
  1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
  
  2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
  
  3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I believe in the same Jesus that is to be found in the Bible. It's the same one. Go read for yourself. And point out to me how the Jesus I speak of is not the same as the Jesus in scripture. There is no "failure to allow men to possess free will." The free will wasn't there to begin with.
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your failure to speak speaks for itself, loud and clear. It's a message all its own. He that has ears to hear, let him hear...............
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I've been describing Jesus throughout this discussion. Maybe you've missed some of it. Do you want me to quote the entire New Testament? What do you wish to know about the Jesus I believe in? If you'll tell me, I will share with you. Be specific.
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Word has already told you.
  
  But if you need confirmation, you can always ask your spirit guide. But of course, if this spirit guide is not the Holy Spirit, then you will hear nothing but the same babbling I've been listening to since the beginning of this thread from you. And the reason for this babbling??
  
  Because you know exactly what I'm referring to and you cannot go there in your confession of the true Christ.........if you are true to your spirit guide.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ben, you're just toying around. You're playing games. I don't know what you're referring to, I seriously don't.
  
  The Word does nothing but confirm my bond with God.
  
  You're being childish. Your only motive seems to be to try and trip me up. But it's not working and it never will because God's truth does not fail.
  
  I would like for you to show me how our salvation has anything to do with free will. I would like you to show me scripturally how Jesus requires us to ALLOW the spirit of God to work in us. Show me how it is our choice to LET God perform His miracle of salavation. Isn't that why you claim that I speak a lie? If so then show me. I've discrdited all scriptural misinterpretations that attempt to say that God's salvation is part the work of God, and part the work of man. I want you support your claims.
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You've done nothing.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, really. That must be why you're still trying to dispute me. And failing.
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who is disputing? Whose failing?
  
  I have freely chosen to antagonize you with the Truth. You have weakly responded because you can't resist.:
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Alright then. Now you've made it clear what you are doing. Thanks for that, Ben. I wish you no harm, nor do I blame you. I'm not going to keep playing your games. If you want to have a productive conversation, I'd love to. But you're not doing that any more, as you've just made known.
  
  Thanks anyway
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Whose playing games. You have refused to address the core issue of this thread, even when it was clearly laid out in front of you in Scripture. And you willingly avoided it. You must avoid it. Your spirit guide obviously can't pass the test, therefore, your foundation of Truth, your own heart, is useless.
  
  You also avoided the same issue on the thread about Hell.
  
  Jesus seems to be a touch subject with you. Especially the Jesus fully described in Scripture.
  
  Hebrews 4:12 is right. The Word of God is alive and powerful...and discerns the thouhts and intents of the heart.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I haven't avoided any scriptural reference that anyone on this forum has tried to use in support of free will. If I have, please bring it to light.
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are absolutely right about not avoiding Scriptures. Perverted them, yes, but not avoided.
  
  What you have avoided are the more fundamental issues of the nature of your spiritual revelation. They can't be supported by Scripture. And you refuse to use the Standard of Scripture to test them and their spiritual origin. I understand what is a stake. And so do you.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 (New King James Version)
  New King James Version (NKJV)
  Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
  
  9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have avoided to address this reply to you maestrowhit from back on page 11 of this thread.
  
  Stay tuned for my reply to t.keeley regarding St. Augustine 'On Grace and Free Will'.
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Babbling?????Little ole me????????
  
  Maestro, whatever on earth could you be talking about???????:
  
  By the way, as a kind reminder to you, I brought up the conclusion of God being a murderer and you agreed with it. If you're afraid of having someone remind you of what you say, then a little more care should go into your statements, especially one so ridiculous and inflammatory.
  
  And I fail to see why God's actions in the OT should upset you so much. After all, these people didn't have anything to do with it. God willed them to be sinners and then Killed them for their sin. But it ultimately doesn't matter because God will grant them eternal life anyway. What a sweet God. What a sweet Jesus. What a babbling mess.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No offense. You just kept saying murderer murdrer murdrer. It was getting old.
  
  Yes I DO agree that God is a murderer. IF you want to use that term. Sure, I'll concede with that. But that's not the term I prefer to use. It's a negative term, and does no justice to the God I know. But by all means, keep saying it.
  
  I never said that God's killing of humans bothered me. It doesn't bother me.
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You'll concede that God is a murderer????
  
  How magnanimous of you, calling Jesus a murderer. Yes, that's my non-free will Jesus.:
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, did He not kill all of the inhabitants of the world except Noah and a few others?
  
  What do YOU call that? I don't call it murder, but by the definition of murder, it can very well be called that.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why wont you respond to this, Ben? You're just playing games.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  By the way, as a kind reminder to you, I brought up the conclusion of God being a murderer and you agreed with it.
  Nothing is born and nothing dies-The Holy Bhagwat Gita.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
  
  22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
  
  23And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.
  
  24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],
  
  25Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it).(C)
  
  26For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,
  
  27And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.
  
  28And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,
  
  29Until they were filled (permeated and saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, iniquity, grasping and covetous greed, and malice. [They were] full of envy and jealousy, murder, strife, deceit and treachery, ill will and cruel ways. [They were] secret backbiters and gossipers,
  
  30Slanderers, hateful to and hating God, full of insolence, arrogance, [and] boasting; inventors of new forms of evil, disobedient and undutiful to parents.
  
  31[They were] without understanding, conscienceless and faithless, heartless and loveless [and] merciless.
  
  32Though they are fully aware of God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yip, I recieved or got or literally heard the same message.
  Lady G, she got the same one too.
  Mark, while without the belief in any God, got the same one too. That or he is just a good hearted person who knows better.
  
  So, let's see here, we have three maybe four different people who recieved a message from the spirit itself, saying the same things in different ways to acheive the same outcome, all of which are saying;
  
  You got the wrong Jesus. But some of you...hehhum...just don't get it because you seem to lack the free will to understand it because you are too afraid.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It takes a clear eye to see that you, me, LG, tkeeley, Mark, Mohit, and it looks like DNKstore, all have received the same spirit. That spirit is positive and speaks peace to people. The spirit of those who are opposing this pure spirit are slandering, insulting, judgemental, and coniving. We don't need those techniques because the truth about life and existence is powerful. The weeds will be pulled in time.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I beleive Jesus said be not afraid.....that is all the church teaches is fear......what's up with that. Again my point that church does not listen to Jesus Christ. They used politics to put his words together and they used fear as their outcome, but you know what-hey why listen to me and rea my words. I read all the messages that have been posted since I came on here and -they don't make any sense in spreading LOVE---unconditional--that is---Jesus and God Loves us no matter what we do........they don't give a flying fig what we beleive becasue we are part of them and cannot be taken away from something that we are pasrt of.. So you all go on arguing with each other and spreading the fear that there is somethin better and that there is not love out there.....It doesn't matter--they still love you no matter what.......
  I am done tring to get people to know that---it's rediculous and stupid and a waste of time..........................There is NO LOVE here.....and my Free Will tells me to go where there is love.
  \
  Ben: Get off your high horse and holier than thou attitude.it doesn't get you anywhere and pride goeth before a fall.of course you won't see it that way because you got some huge rose colored glasses on.
  
  so I am leaving this convo.........I won't feed into the green and intoloerance anymore.........
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
Sorry Mark, I should've clarified my sarcasm in that last message to you.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Death of Herod Agrippa
  20 Now Herod was very angry with the people of Tyre and Sidon. So they sent a delegation to make peace with him because their cities were dependent upon Herod’s country for food. The delegates won the support of Blastus, Herod’s personal assistant, 21 and an appointment with Herod was granted. When the day arrived, Herod put on his royal robes, sat on his throne, and made a speech to them. 22 The people gave him a great ovation, shouting, “It’s the voice of a god, not of a man!”
  23 Instantly, an angel of the Lord struck Herod with a sickness, because he accepted the people’s worship instead of giving the glory to God. So he was consumed with worms and died.
  
  24 Meanwhile, the word of God continued to spread, and there were many new believers
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus Warns of Offenses
  
  42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
  
  ‘ Their worm does not die
  And the fire is not quenched.'
  
  45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
  
  ‘ Their worm does not die
  And the fire is not quenched.'
  
  47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
  
  ‘ Their worm does not die
  And the fire is not quenched
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Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

Un-necessary.

I am rather enjoying listening to your conversation. Oddly reminiscent of similar conversations I had in my youth. As you and your father have been so "personal" I will also share. I have said much of this before, but it has been dis-regarded and ignored. For some reason, I feel you might be interested.

Quick background - Grandfather high up in COE (high church). English boarding school (church every morning, RE twice a week, several scripture homework assignments every week). Latin studies, Greek studies. Strangely accented with examination of the bible as a text to decipher/translate. School of tough love. It's for your own good. Corporal punishment.

You get the idea.

But - I read thee bible differently. Not a popular choice, which resulted in me asking myself - Does this make sense?

Actually, it was my Grandfather who managed to plant the first seeds of doubt about the Christian religion. Accidentally. He decided to show me his church's treasures. The bishops robes, threaded with gold and precious gems. The gold chalices. etc etc etc... And complain about the the rotten thieves that would steal the lead from the roof. Going to hell for sure. I was about 8 years old at the time, and was amazed to discover that his over-riding pride was invested in these baubels.

Which was my first inkling that the church was more about rewards on this earth rather than rewards in heaven. And oddly determined that there were punishments involved if I did not subscribe. Despite the fact that my understanding of Latin and Greek was leading me to suspect that the words in earlier books were not the same as later.

So, I looked a little further and discovered for myself that there are many interpretations of the bible. Many translations. But the one that was most persistent and the most pushed was the one that promised the carrot and the stick. Do what I say or else you will burn for eternity.

I am sure you already know the conclusion I came to and the decisions I made. Which resulted in a somewhat acrimonious division between me and some of my family/friends/church.

No matter. I discovered I was better off without.

Then, many years later, I also discovered an odd connection to the universe. Very powerful. Powerful enough to bring me to my knees. Literally. Almost enough to prevent me from functioning on a day-to-day basis.

So, I started looking. And asking questions. Because this connection did not involve burning in hell, or right or wrong, or even the need to do anything. What it did give me is a very strong sense of my importance in teh scheme of things.

A grain of sand on the beach is just as important as me.

I went to churches and spoke to priests. They did not understand, because I also said I did not believe in god or Jesus, therefore I was denying the Truth. I sat in sweat lodges. I learned to read the Tarot cards. I went to Yoga classes.

Eventually, I realized that this connection just is. No free will involved other than the ability to turn it off. Which I have had to do, because along with this connection came the ability to accidentally turn it on in others. I can no more deny I am part of the universe than Ican stop breathing at will.

Whatever these, as Ben calls them "professing christians," tell me, I know they are wrong.

God, if you want to give it a name, is not interested in politics, or starting wars, or banning abortion or forcing me to accept that it is my "free will" that will allow me to accept Jesus as my personal savior and all of a sudden have an opinion on what every one else should do and shove it down their throats. And if I don't use that free will I will go to hell and burn for all eternity.

Now, you might call my experience being spoken to by god. I do not believe in god. But it seems we had the same message.

You just have to ask one question -

Does it make sense?
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Luke 13:3
  I tell you, No; but unless you repent ( change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins), you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  too bad the Bible didn't tell you how to shut your mouth. lol. Sorry bad joke. come on...if a person only has one life to live, let them live it and be happy.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Revelation 20:15
  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  *tears* you still never said what happened. I know we had talked about it before, but you still never told the story.
  
  Story, story,story,story...
  
  I know you didn't get the chariot, so what did you get? I wanna know, I wanna know, I wanna know... please!!!!!!!
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  Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I relates so much with this you went rhough becasue I also went rhough something very similar. No one can tell us that went through this type of experience that the book you all call the Bible is anything to do with Jesus-it is all political and if all of you who quote from it and beleive it blindly you are the ones who are being mis-lead.............The more you trust in others and not in yourself and the universal connection the more you are lost............
  I don't know abut Mrk's experience, but in mine there was a light and love much more than what you ever possibly get out of a book or on this earth.//and beleive me it is not Satan or evil as you all claim it to be....
  
  Sorry, Mark I left you out of my speil about characters of people. You are more in tuned to God then all htese Christians who claim they are..they have words, but not expereience. Fight with me like they will but you cannot waver my experience and the love that I felt and it was not Satan--get off that trick!!
  
  I wrote about my experience in a hub/
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  Lady Guinevereposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry that was them fight with me or you, but not you. This flu is messing with my mind today.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you. This is a good story. I imagine I would have a lot of questions about certain details if this were the approprate venue for that. I think we definitely are speaking the same message. I call it God talking to me because that's all I believe the authors of the Bible were going off of. My words are just as God-inspired as thiers. I know this connection you talk about. I'm sure our experiences are individually different, but that the beauty of it. We each play our own specific role in the universe.
  
  Well, that depends on what you're asking that about. I hear a lot of mystic-babble that doesn't make any sense,(Christianity included). That is a very pertinent question, though, because I am certain that if people could see the beauty in the world that I see on a daily basis, positive changes would start to happen. That's what I'm trying to instigate in the best way I know how.
  Thanks again
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
Cool Hand Luke
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DNKStoreposted 15 years ago
Actually, I see your meaning rather well. Jesus really can be the motivation to do God's will.

However, I am not at all certain that Free Will is a deception of the Devil. It was God who created us.
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Ben Bushposted 15 years ago
Maestro,

You have stated that you really don't need the Word of God in order to know the Truth. In fact, you have stated that study is not the way to approach the knowledge of the Word.

Jesus might have something to say about that.

John 8:31-32, "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, 'If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; And you shall know the Truth and the truth will make you free.'

Later he said in prayer to his Father (John 17:17), "Sanctify then through your Truth; your word is Truth."

John 12:47.....And if any man whear my words, and believe not, I judge him not...........48, He that rejects me, and receives not my words has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same will judge him in the last day."

John 14:23....."If a man love me, he will keep my words..........24. He that loveth me not keeps not my sayings...... 26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to remembrance whatsoever I have said to you."

John 16:13....Howbeit, when the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth."

And Finally:

Psalm 138:2, "I will praise your name....for your lovingkindness and for your truth, for you have magnified your word above all your name."
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have the meaning of this verse backwards. He isn't saying that in order to be His disciples, we must continue in His word. It isn't a condition or requirement of descipleship. What it means is that if we are His disciples, we will continue in His word naturally.
  When God brings life to our spirit through His Holy Spirit, we begin to desire the Word. It becomes appealing to us, wheras berfore it was not. You can tell that Christ is working in a person if that person is hungry for the word. But yo ucannot be hungry for the word by your own will. You can't find pleasure in God's word unless He breathes life into your soul.
  
  The next part of scripture after what you quoted here is where Jesus talks about being a slave to sin. He says that if we commit sin, we are a slave to sin. That means we are not free to operate independent of it.
  
  The Spirit of Truth spoken of here is the spirit within me. He has guided me and is still guiding me into all truth. I would hope the same for you.
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
Luke 10
21) At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from {the} wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

Can an infant make a choice? Jesus says that infants understand His truth better than wise and intelligent adults. He say's God reveals His truth to infants. That means that when we grow up and read the Bible, the truth that is contained in it is already IN OUR HEARTS.

22) "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal {Him.}"

It is not by our will that we come to know God. It is by the will of the Son of Man.

The Bible makes many clear, direct statements about man's lack of power to save himself. There are many scriptures that plainly state that God does the entire job of salvation, and man does nothing about which he can boast. But there aren't any scriptures that contradict this.

Jesus also says that he who is not against you is for you. I seem to have been regarded by some on here as being against them. I am not. I am not against any walk of life. I am only against certain ideas that are harmful to people.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Revelation 20:15
  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
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t.keeleyposted 15 years ago
SS, I fail to see how your revelation reference pertains to Maestro's multiple passages obviously supporting predestination. It's a trend that many are replicating lately, this idea that throwing a verse out, no matter the context, works in favour of the argument because it's the Bible. It's as if words totally unrelated to a debate are, in a sense, empowered merely because they are of God.

On the other hand we see M's use of compelling scripture to his advantage. The fact is, Christ [without debate] preached predestination Himself. We can twist the Bible left and right til we're blue in the face, analyse with our superior-to-god-human-reasoning, and make stupid anecdotes about how free will makes sense, but in the end the Bible supports Augustinian theology thru and thru. In fact, I have yet to meet a Bible scholar who truly believes man has free will. Ask anyone, be it John Piper or MacArthur, R.C. Sproul or Mark Driscoll, Rick Phillips or James Boice: they all believe in total sovereign grace by faith without any mortal intervention of will.

Bible + scholars or people with uncompelling opinionated arguments...

I think I'm siding with the first one, hands down.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're a great help to me and the cause of truth tkeeley. Keep it up. I appreciate it. You are well informed. Thanks
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  St. Augustine was one of the Fathers of the Church. Have you actually read anything of what St. Augustine wrote 'On Grace and Free Will' t.keeley? Here's some on Chapter 2.
  
  Predestination is a cop out. Nobody is 'saved' until their own judgment day.
  
  This entire discussion is null and void without bringing the Sacraments into the discussion, simply because the Sacraments are the main source of God's Grace and our sanctification, which hopefully in the end leads to our eternal life. The above link on the Sacraments is a wikipedia so as to not offend denominational beliefs.
  
  God bless
  Mike
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  t.keeleyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I never said man had no will whatsoever. Man has a will bound by sin. Chapter 2 is cute out of context, but go further into chapters 41-43 and it changes things-- a lot. In face, so much so that this book you made reference to was inspiration to John Calvin on the topic of Predestination.
  
  Call it a cop out if you want, but I'm seeing a ton of out-of-context quotes, a ton of useless verbatim, and annoying opinions based on what makes people feel good.
  
  Considering I have yet to see an entire passage deal with man's option of choosing righteousness, I really don't feel like participating any more. I mean, at this moment it's just an argument of what "we want the words of others to mean for us." Relativism sucks. There's nothing accomplished in any debate without strict objectivity and correct understanding even of the topic at hand.
  
  Everyone wants to be a theologian in their own minds, but the reality is very few actually are. I tend to listen to those few instead of the many wannabes.
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DNKStoreposted 15 years ago
Watching this and like threads has been an educational experience for me!

God a murderer?
Job 13:15
Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him;

Noun: Murder
Unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being. (WordWeb)

When God takes life/lives it cannot be murder, because there is no law that rules over him, rather he rules over all other laws and lawmakers. Also, he is not a human being. If we take out these two requirements, unlawfulness, and humanity, then we can call ANYTHING a murder. If you eat meat, you are a murderer. If you are vegan, you are still a murderer, as who is to say the life in a plant has less value than that of an animal?

It amazes me that otherwise intelligent, articulate, and thoughtful people would call God a murderer. You can say you don't believe in him, but who wastes time labeling something they don't believe in?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who said god was a murderer ? An atheist or a believer?
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, that question doesn't matter. Regardless of who it was, they only asked because God forced them to. There's no will involved but God's
  
  My question to Maestro at this time is, "Does God possess a free will?"
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So maestro is right again in his concept that we do not have free will. "There's no will involved but God's."
  
  hmm...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, but this depends entirely on your perspective.
  
  As an atheist, I don't believe in god, so I never make a reference like this. I may have said something like "people murder in god's name."
  
  I would never accuse something I don't believe exists of doing anything.
  
  As far as I am concerned, I have free will. Because I do not believe in god. Therefore I am responsible for my own actions, and I would not look to god for forgiveness, because that would be a waste of time. By the same token, I do not have that out. I can't say to myself, "Oh well, it doesn't matter as long as I ask for forgiveness." I have to live with the consequences of my actions. Myself.
  
  But, I also do not believe I am born in sin and need saving from anything. Especially not a fiery pit.
  
  But, if you do believe in god, especially the god with the fiery pit and eternal damnation, how can you possibly have free will?
  
  That is like me saying to you. "You can lay the concrete there, and I will give you your heart's desire. Or, you can lay the concrete somewhere of your own choosing, and I will torment you in horrible pain for the rest of your life, which I will make sure is very long. Entirely up to you. Let me know which one you choose."
  
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes this is gods master plan we humans are carrying out.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ben used the word murderer, but he was being spiteful. He was trying to cast a negative light on something I said - a behavior that seems to be just about all he is capable of. I agreed with him because, after all, there are many stories of God killing people in the Bible. But DNKstore brought up a good point about the definition of murder. God isn't a murderer any more than I am a murderer for eating fried chicken.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are twisting the story again maestrowhit. Ben was asking you if you thought God was a murderer. And you said He was.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's not true, Money. Ben suggested that God was a murderer, then he asked me if I agreed. I said I did agree that he kills people, but I don't wish to use the word murdrer. Go and see for yourself. It's you who are twisting things.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It seemed more sarcastic than spiteful.
  
  A tool I am familiar with
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent ,superb ,fantastic God bless
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
I think this thread might finally be done. I've learned a lot and made some good contacts. Overall, it's been a rewarding experience.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Luke 13:3
  I tell you, No; but unless you repent ( change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins), you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally
  
  JESUS SAID "BUT (UNLESS) YOU REPENT YOU WILL ALL LIKEWISE PERISH AND BE LOST FOREVER"
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know what translation that is. It is quite different from the NASB, which happens to be considered the most accurate translation to date.
  
  Also, you took this out of context. Jesus is relating the fate of unrepentant people to the fate of some Galileans that Pilate had killed and whose blood he used in some sacrifices. Notice the word "likewise." It is a word that denotes relation to something else.
  Luke 13
  1) Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
  2) And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were {greater} sinners than all {other} Galileans because they suffered this {fate?}
  3) "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
  
  You see, Jesus was saying that no sin is greater or lesser; it's all equal sin. They asked Him if, since the Galileans suffered so greatly, were thier sins somehow greater. Jesus corrected them by saying, in effect, that all sin contribues to the same death.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Luke 13:3
  I tell you, No; but unless you repent ( change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins), you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally
  
  JESUS SAID "BUT (UNLESS) YOU REPENT YOU WILL ALL LIKEWISE PERISH AND BE LOST FOREVER"
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Romans 10:9
  (IF) you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
  
  THE BIG WORD IS (IF)
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Well in your weak attempt at answering Ben's question here that certainly sounds like what you are saying.

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sandra rinckposted 15 years ago
no worries maestrowhit, I know what you were trying to say.
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sandra rinckposted 15 years ago
Why would Jesus die to free people from religous oppressions to then make a new one?

It's all bologna and st. augustine undid everything that Jesus died for and you call him a saint.

When Jesus comes back he is gonna give you a good smack in the face! lol

He said if you love him then obey the commandments. Yet ya'll have managed to be counter productive and trick people into doing exactly the opposite of the commandments.

Have no other God besides the Creator???- Catholisism has at least three, monothiest call God Jesus etc...

Do not worship any graven images or things made out of silver, copper, wood etc..um... cross, dead guy on a stick, statues of mother marry...

thou shall not kill- but christians kill for the dead guy they worship on a stick all the time...

thou shall not commit adultry- interchanging your loyalties from one God spirit to the next, mother marry, jesus, st. john st. augustine etc..I think you forgot about God.

thou shall not take the lords name in vain- you do it all day long telling people God said it was ok to kill because of him or that it is ok to take worship to idols because it is after all Jesus the ungod God.

whatev!
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
You are twisting things completely out of context Sandra. Jesus spoke against the Pharisees and Sanhedrin, not against the Church that He started.

His Church is mentioned 77 times in the New Testament.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  and what church is that? the one st. augustine built or the one the one that is inside?
  Jesus hated the churches, the ones made of man made materials, he hated money in the church, he hated that some people were allowed in and other not, he hated that people were unwilling to forgive people for the "bad" things they do to each other when he knows that they are guilty of the same crimes.
  
  He hated that peopled called him God but didn't acknowledge the Father. He hated that some children were left for dead because they were poor but the ones with money were helped because they had it.
  
  He hated the attitude with his own followers his apostles, the ones he was teaching; he hated that they hated the good sumaritian because he was a "sameritian". He hated that his beloved apostle whats his face, cut off the ear of the roman who raised his sward to Jesus because that is not what Jesus told him to do.
  
  But saying any of this is like speaking into the air because still a man hears what he wants to hear and he disregards the rest.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No Jesus doesn't hate anyone Sandra. It was Peter.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  1 John 1:9
  But (if) we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.
  
  IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF REQUIRES A CHOICE
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  what are you trying to say? I have not repented? You sure do make a lot of assumptions. Or is it called judgments. I wonder if I would have been burned for not confessing that I was confessing my sins?
  
  Don't really care if, if, if, if we have a choice or not. The point was that the ultimate outcome of this life is death you have no choice. You will die one day, no one not even Jesus escapes death.
  
  Accept it! You will one day die. I will one day die, hopefully later a lot later. No one has free will over that. Not even Jesus. ANd don't say he escaped deathe because he was resurrected because he still had to die.
  
  Things in this life. Think about this life, not the next one. Everything has to do with this life and you are not making it better. As far as I can tell you are making it worse and Christianity was my stumbling block go figure.
  
  Who is going to pay for that? No one cause it is not anyones fault for being ignorant and I am certainly not sorry for being born into a world that only seeks self fulfillment.
  
  What would you do to get into Heaven? Anyways Jesus said that no one sin is better or worse then the other, and if not believing is a sin, then it is no worse then murder and all the same forgiveable.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sandra: First of all I love you and I am not making any insinuations concerning any ones repentance. That is between you and Almighty God. Personally I am in a constant state of repentance. I am always struggling to keep my mind in line with the teachings and precepts of Jesus the Christ. Some times this struggle is on a daily basis and sometimes it is minute by minute and many times I fail, but when I fail I acknowledge my failure before God through prayer. He promised that He would forgive me.
  You posted this statement.
  [“Accept it! You will one day die. I will one day die, hopefully later a lot later. No one has free will over that.”]
  Now here is what the bible has to say about that (your bible, my bible, maestros’ bible, any bible) please note that I have used two translations (there are many more) one of which is maestros’ favorite. I won’t give a big long commentary, the words speak for them selves
  
  1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)
  16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
  17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
  18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
  
  1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (New Living Translation)
  16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words
  
  1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (New American Standard Bible)
  51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
  52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
  53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
  
  1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (New Living Translation)
  51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
  
  This is the blessed hope of all Christians or all believers I'm not trying to single out any belief system. Draw your own conclusions. Thank you............SS
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Fine S.S. if it makes you happy I don't have a problem with it. All I have to say again is, this is not the truth. I can tell because the word "Christians" wasn't invented until after Jesus.
  
  I don't have this version of the Bible but the one I have does not read anything like that. There is no rapture. Whatever happens after death is whatever happens after death.
  
  I feel bad that you hold on to this dream that you will escape death because you believe or have faith in it, but we all die and all those people that supposedly will escape the first death, they will die too. We all die, we all have to die.
  
  There is no transition from anything until you do because if you didn't die, you would still be the same, everything will continue to stay the same. God isn't a dillhole. lol. If the soul is the church that holds the Spirit, then the soul must die to let the Spirit go.
  
  Anyways, again, I know you mean well and I know you really believe these things and that you will turn the other way if anyone tells you different, but just as you do others do to.
  
  We could go back and forth all day to interpret scripture and make arguements as to why a person should not trust the Bible word for word because it is a fact that it has been changed again and again.
  
  So the only prayer I ever made that ever meant anything is that everyone be considered innocent. I believe with all my heart you are all innocent. We have enough punishments on Earth and it is enough, we hurt each other enough to last a lifetime, and in the end, it would be impossible to know the absolute truth no matter what you or anyone says even scientist or astronomers or politicians or the smarterst man in the world or Einstein etc...
  
  It is absolutely impossible to know the truth. Not in this world. Just like all the other crazies out there, I too got a message from the Spirit and while I was in disbelief, God decided to show me this Eagle, it was huge, it had these star like lights under it's wings, it came out of Heaven and went right back into it.
  
  I had never felt so helpless or scared in my life. I was messed up for days a month maybe two months, and continued to show me a lot of things that make me want to barf, they make me want to cry but above all of that the most important message I could get was, in this day, today and the ones to follow the most important thing for you to do is keep your family close, love them with all your heart, do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has problems of it's own.
  
  And yes, it wont be so long but the time we never know because the end is not pretty, so in this time it is important to be with your family, your loved ones, your friends and make it as good as it can be. Many people will continue to destroy what is good by taking away each others "gifts", don't be part of that number.
  
  However stubborn you may be, consider this a message to you from above because God works in mysterious ways. Your son needs you, not to preach but to be with him, he asked for your friendship, don't put the Bible before your son.
  
  With a lot of love, and so much hope. God Bless S.S. and be with your son.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well at the least one must understand that his or her death is destined
  
  I keep wondering at which age I will die,
  Dream stage,awakened to fully awakened I must try.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  what are you trying to say? I have not repented? You sure do make a lot of assumptions. Or is it called judgments. I wonder if I would have been burned for not confessing that I was confessing my sins?
  
  Don't really care if, if, if, if we have a choice or not. The point was that the ultimate outcome of this life is death you have no choice. You will die one day, no one not even Jesus escapes death.
  
  Accept it! You will one day die. I will one day die, hopefully later a lot later. No one has free will over that. Not even Jesus. ANd don't say he escaped deathe because he was resurrected because he still had to die.
  
  Things in this life. Think about this life, not the next one. Everything has to do with this life and you are not making it better. As far as I can tell you are making it worse and Christianity was my stumbling block go figure.
  
  Who is going to pay for that? No one cause it is not anyones fault for being ignorant and I am certainly not sorry for being born into a world that only seeks self fulfillment.
  
  What would you do to get into Heaven? Anyways Jesus said that no one sin is better or worse then the other, and if not believing is a sin, then it is no worse then murder and all the same forgiveable.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF is destined that momement of if.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'll keep trying to explain this IF IF IF IF IF IF you don't understand because it's a GOOD GOOD GOOD GOOD GOOD message I'm trying to show you. LOL
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  MY CLOSING PLEA
  
  Well, I know a lot of you will be glad to see me go, but I would like to post one more plea to any one who will hear me
  First of all I love my Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ with all my heart, soul, and strength. Also I love my son (maestrowhit) he is a very talented and intelligent individual. It runs in the family. My daughter is a professed Christian currently attending Liberty University and is involved in missions. My oldest son is a professed Christian currently serving his country in the US Navy. They are both devout Christians. I love each of them equally and unconditionally.
  
  This forum can be divided into two separate crusades. Maestro has come proclaiming that there is no need for you to worry about what you believe or what you do not believe. No need to regret or change your sinful attitude and living. You are all predestined to be one with Christ and live happily ever after in the kingdom of heaven. He brings the message of peace and love which is a very noble thing to do.
  
  I am not going to bore you with a whole bunch of passages, so most of this post will be from memory and in my words. If you want validation, then please look it up your self.
  
  On the other hand, secondsamuel has come to warn you of what will be your doom if you don’t repent, change your attitude towards God, and strive to bring your way of living in alignment with that which is pleasing to God. I too have brought the message of love and peace when I quoted (John 3:16) and other passages. As an illustration I am going to use the life and death of my x-son-in-law. Joe was killed in an automobile accident when he was 22 years old. He was a professed Christian but he had fallen into a snare by associating with drunkards and partiers. He went to the casino with a friend one spring night and they went joy riding afterwards. He let his friend drive, who was drunk, but Joe was even more drunk. Joe had been warned by his wife and other Christian friends that he was heading for trouble. On that night when he got in the truck he (decided) not to buckle his seat belt. This was out of character because Joe always buckled his seat belt. The driver ran through a stop sign at a steep incline, the truck went air-borne, flipped and threw Joe out. It broke his neck. He suffered for about five minutes and then he died . The driver buckled his seatbelt, he walked away. He was not a Christian.
  
  My point is, Joe (DECIDED) not to buckle up, even though he new he was putting his life in danger. He had been (WARNED) not to hang out with those who would get drunk and party their lives away. Is he in hell? I don’t know. But I wonder if he would still be alive (IF) he had heeded the warnings and (IF) he had made the (DECISION) to buckle up. He was drunk and he was blinded by the pleasures of this world.
  
  This is not about being right or wrong. If it will save one soul then I concede right now. What it all comes down to is a (DECISION) whether there be “free will” or no “free will” it still boils down to a (DECISION)
  
  (IF) maestro is right and you carry on, business as usual, then so be it. The question is ARE YOU REALLY SURE that maestro is right. WHAT IF he is wrong and you wind up going to your death in total rebellion against God , the end result being an eternity in some kind of torment. Call it hell or call it what you want but the bible does mention (many times) a place of torment and hell. Maestro swears by God that it is all symbolic and you need not worry. But please, I beg of you, step back from the tree so you can see the forest as a whole unit.
  
  Proverbs 3:5-6 (New Living Translation)
  5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart;
  do not depend on your own understanding.
  6 Seek his will in all you do,
  and he will show you which path to take
  
  I try to live by this passage, but most of my young life I was depending on my own understanding about things while at the same time doing everything except seeking His will. I was too busy living and being what the world calls happy. Boy was I wrong. What about you? Are you on the right path? Are you seeking His will? He promises that if you seek his will He will show you the right path. Are you absolutely positive beyond the shadow of a doubt that you have nothing to worry about? Please allow me to make a suggestion. Please don’t go by what I say, or what maestro says, or anyone else. Please seek God in your own way. Please try to read His word, forget about all you have read on this thread and let GOD speak to you, it is His gift to you. A whole lot of innocent people have died so that you can read it. Please at least honor their sacrifice by reading the words which God has enabled them to preserve. DECIDE FOR YOUR SELF by the study of His word. Are you going to buckle your seatbelt or not? THE DECISION IS YOURS.
  
  May god bless you all………….secondsamuel signing out
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Proverbs 3:5-6 (New Living Translation)
  5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart;
  do not depend on your own understanding.
  6 Seek his will in all you do,
  and he will show you which path to take
  
  this is perfect
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Show me the path I pray to you,
  Then I will know what to do
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So, how well has this worked for you? Has your life been a victory over debilitating, compulsive behaviors? Have you managed to, by your own decision, change your ways? As long as you think it is by your doing that you change your behaviors, you'll always fail. Your flesh can do nothing but sin and die. I think you know this pretty well. This idea of "free will" to save yourself from bad habits - things that destroy you physically and mentally - is an evil spirit that kills. All you seem to focus on is fear. "What if there's a lake of fire after I die?" and you tell people to consider this to be a fact. You're telling people to be afraid. That is wrong. That is not the Spirit of God, and if you think it is, you're believing a lie.
  
  You ask readers if they are 100% sure that there is nothing to fear? I can tell you, speaking for myself, that I am 100% sure there is nothing to fear. And that goes for you too. You have nothing to fear. Stop worrying. Stop focusing on negativity.
  
  Thanks for your involvement
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good bye my son, thanks for the advice (not needed), and thank you for de-facing me one more time, it just confirms my impression, your brothers' impression, your sisters' impression and your mothers' impression of you. We love you................ TO GOD BE THE GLORY FOR EVER AND EVER.....................AMEN
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  that is great, I didn't say Jesus hated the person, he hated what they did. How very good of you to blame it on someone else yet another Christain tradition.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I was saying that "whats his face" was Peter.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol, my bad!
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
Money:

If the meanings you derive from scripture contradict each other, then you're not seeing the true meaning.

This is a contradiction:

Faith is a gift to us from God and is not a result of man's works.

But,

we cannot receive faith without working for it?

That's what you are insinuating, but it is not what the scripture means. The scripture means that faith produces good works - not us, but the faith. God puts the faith in us that allows us to do His good work. All it is is a statement. It's saying that works come in the same package as faith. You can recognize faith because of the good works it produces. It is not saying that works are required of us in order to have faith. That's backwards.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No it's not a contradiction. In James 2 we read "faith without works is dead". In Galatians 5:6 it says "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity" (some Bibles replace the word charity with the word love). In Chapter 7 of 'On Grace and Free Will' by St. Augustine it says Grace is Necessary Along with Free Will to Lead a Good Life. Most theologians, like St. Augustine as t.keeley referred to include the Sacraments when talking on the subject of free will because we receive Grace from the Sacraments. You yourself have mentioned in a previous post that the Sacrament of Confession is a work.
  
  So that's why I say this whole topic is null and void without bringing the Sacraments into the discussion. Faith, works, the Sacraments and Grace should all be mentioned when discussing free will. So how can the Sacraments and Grace come into play without an organized Church with ordained ministers or priests that we can receive the Sacraments from? This link on the Sacraments talks about the different Sacraments in different denominations. This is clearly a deep subject. Please don't think that we are picking on you by continuing this discussion. You can call me Mike if you like.
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  godofthisworldposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are so skillful, I am so proud of you.
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Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago
Strict objectivity and correct understanding?

What planet are you from? No one can understand the bible because it doesn't make any sense.

And how can you be objective about a faith?

There is 36 pages of arguments here. And no one can agree on anything.

Or are you the only one that TRULY understands?
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
JESUS SAID "BUT (UNLESS) YOU REPENT YOU WILL ALL LIKEWISE PERISH AND BE LOST FOREVER"
Such hatred. It is so dreary. Beat me on the head with a hammer.
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
No problem.
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Sparrowbirdposted 15 years ago
maestrowhit? are you still there?
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm here now. What's up? I'm about to hit the hay, though. I'll get back to if you have a question or something.
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Sparrowbirdposted 15 years ago
you know "Dad" you are reacting. Jesus is not defensive. It is ok to not believe it all at the same time. It is a life long journey. maestrowhit is on his way. knowone but God knows all the answers. We just journey together, in love. It's ok, to love him anyway, with out anger. you are doing great maestrowhit. I have been at it a long long time and still am searching too.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks! I really hope the journey never ends. I think that when a person starts to think they have it figured out all the way is when they start to die inside. God wants us to stay alive
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  viralprospectorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, when you are lost, you are searching. Those who are saved are leading.
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  jaimelinus0316posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Lord, please save us from some of those who lead and shouldn't.
  
  VP, I truly hope that you are not one of those leaders, because if I was following you, I think I would be seriously hurting.
  
  Maestrowhit - didn't you start his forum? I'd like to know how in the world you managed to "march onto this forum" when you yourself created it. VP - why would you assume that he would "straighten it out"? This forum was created for maestrowhit to learn, not to "straighten it out". How do you know the size of his chest, by the way? Sorry, I guess that wasn't supposed to be literal. I'm confused...are you saying that no Christian would say that you're wrong? Here's the part where I raise my hand and say, "Yes, sir - you are wrong."
  
  Please, maestrowhit, don't grow up to be like your dad. Secondsamuel, I love you, and I think you're a great guy, but you are your own person with your own path, and you are still a human, just like everybody else.
  
  What exactly did God do to secondsamuel?
  
  You severely underestimate Satan if you think that maestrowhit is Satan. Satan is WAY worse than maestrowhit. (There's no words to completely describe how horrible he is. Well, a few, but I'm sure someone who spouts his knowledge and righteousness can find them in the Bible all by himself.) God doesn't want anybody to fall; why place the responsibility of somebody's spirituality on maestrowhit? He is not elevated to have that kind of control.
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viralprospectorposted 15 years ago
Maestrowhit;

I am so sorry for your Father and your father. You are in the full grip of satan. You are such a pompous fool that I find it disgusting. You marched onto this forum, and you were pretty screwed up, but I thought you could straighten it out. You have sunk to the lowest level possible after straying way further from the truth. There is no one on this earth that I have less respect for than you.

I have read the most foolish and arrogant crap from you that I have seen from anyone here. Well, Sandra and Lady G will stand by you, so I am sure you are puffing out your puny chest with glee. Yes, I am sure you are readying some stupid, evil reply to me. Well, I will consider all rebukes to me to be huge compliments. So, please tell me how I am wrong. Be sure of one thing, no Christian will say such a thing.

You are satan in the flesh. You are leading others to hell, and Jesus has strong words for that. Oh, that's right, I already posted them. Only your father caught them. I know what your fate would be today, and the others who gleefully spout pure BS contrary to the Bible. The Bible is perfectly clear.

You can save yourselves, and the Christians on this forum cannot. Be sure that your father is a remarkable man of great wisdom and courage. You would do fantastic if you can grow up to be like him. I think you will, but you are 100% going in the opposite and wrong direction.

All you need to know was posted here. The hard part is deciding what part was true and what part is going to lead you to hell forever. I pray to God that God does not do to me what He has done to your father. I do not think that I have the strength and courage to endure it.

Please tell me I am totally wrong, so I can be sure I got this right.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you. My father is a a remarkable, wise, and courageous individual. I also feel sorry for him. He struggles with a lot of pain and hardship, and he has his whole life. It breaks my heart, because I love him. I'm sorry you have so much hatred in you - enough to say such vicious things to me. But I'm pleased God has planted a seed in you through me. That's all I can really hope for. We serve the same God, VP. His love in me gives me the ability to love you.
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viralprospectorposted 15 years ago
To Second Samuel;

Yes, "a lot of pain and hardship" = Maestrowhit today. God bless you.
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jaimelinus0316posted 15 years ago
He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. - 1 John 2:9-11

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

And with that, I bow out. Jesus loves me and you, and I have nothing but love for everybody else. I refuse to get angry and bitter, because I don't want my joy to be taken away.

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. - Philippians 4:7
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viralprospectorposted 15 years ago
Jaimelinus:

"He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now."

I agree, and I am glad that I never wrote that I hate anyone. I don't know, maybe you wrote that to yourself as a reminder, though. You see, to let someone burn in hell forever for unfathomable sins against God would surely be hate, in my book. However, I sure did say that I have no respect for Maestrowhit. I am sure you read my earlier post that Secondsamuel reposted, right? It contains scriptures relevent to this thread, not scriptures that pertain to nothing here as far as I can see, anyway. It is typical of people who know they will lose the debate to change the subject and twist the parameters of discussion.

"He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him."

In the Bible, Christians are brothers. I refuse to believe Maestrowhit is anything resembling a Christian. That is my whole point that he is the total opposite.

"But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. - 1 John 2:9-11

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27"

"You" are Christians, not Maestrowhit.

It is better to back up to 1 John 2:26, I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.", i.e. Maestrowhit. Thus, none of what you posted applies to him whatsoever. He is not who 1 John is talking to.

"And with that, I bow out. Jesus loves me and you, and I have nothing but love for everybody else. I refuse to get angry and bitter, because I don't want my joy to be taken away."

Well , smoochie poochie to you, too. However, you are indeed the person on the hot seat, now. Secondsamuel has stated clearly his position, and he is right. It is up to you and Maestrowhit, now.

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. - Philippians 4:7

I think you are missing the point of the Bible. There is grace and mercy available, but there is harsh punishment,m too. You would be much better to focus a few passages back to Philippians 3:18, "For as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame", i.e. Maestrowhit. Oh wait, I thought everybody is saved!

PS, BS.
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
MY GOODBYE TO THIS FORUM

I could go on forever with this thread, but I must discontinue. As he has expressed in earlier posts, my father has been under great strain due to the environment of this forum, and the fact that I am so involved herein. Words that were exchanged here have caused some division between he and I, and he has asked me to step off so that we can work on reconciling whatever damage has been done. I whole-heartedly agree with him. I am granting him his request. My father is much more important to me than going back and forth in conversation for ever, to no end.

Concerning everyone who has taken an interest in this thread, I am glad to have interacted with you. I've learned a great deal from you, from God, and from myself. I will continue to write hubs and other forums. I've discovered a renewed love for writing since joining this site.

I also want to point out to anyone who may be convinced otherwise, that I love my father very much, and I am proud of him. My dad has done amazing things in his life that you would not believe. Most of them, I don't even know about. He is an unbelievably awesome dude. I am lucky to have him.

This couldn't have come at a better time. I have reached a deeper level in my understanding of the Word. This is the right time for me to step back and re-adjust. Thanks everyone, (even the meanies who think I'm Satan)
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  godofthisworldposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  MAESTROWHIT 3:16 (M.W. Translation)
  
  16 For satan so hates the world that he gave his only begotten son (maestrowhit) that whosoever believeth in him should not live but have everlasting death.
  17 for satan sent not his son into the world to save the world , but that the world through him might be deceived into eternal damnation.
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  godofthisworldposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not yet my child, there are so many souls, so little time.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Quote by aka- dj
  God's will, WILL be done, whether we believe it or not. Whether we like it or not.
  It's BIGGER than all of us. I'm just trying to get my life/aligiences right.
  
  This is what I mean.Align your free will with the cosmic will and you will be happy as its your real will.Whether you like it or not destiny will unfold as planned.
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  godofthisworldposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  where is the rest of my desciples? you go tell them to get back here and get to work. do you here me? do it!!!!!
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol, didn't you get the memo? No one wants to listen to anyone else. lol. Bad Devil, bad Devil!
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Its happening take a chill pill
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t.keeleyposted 15 years ago
Oh....my....gosh.

Satan has graced us with his presence.

Wow.

I'm in utter amazement.

I'm bowing out too, not like I was ever a real part of this thread, but it's gotten boring and really it's just pointless anymore.
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  godofthisworldposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are so blind, I have been here from the very start and I am in many other like forms of communication. I am the god of this world. I am the prince of the power of the air.
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  godofthisworldposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Please don't go.
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  viralprospectorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi idiot of this world, I mean Maestrowhit, I mean satan. I mean what a childish fool you are. I mean look out it gets real hot where you are headed. Ouch, look out, don't touch that. Hey, don't say I didn't warn you...
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
"but that the world through him might be deceived into eternal damnation" Take that you are a contrarian. Refreshing.
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t.keeleyposted 15 years ago
One last message...

Whoever is having "fun" with that absolutely stupid username...it's seriously the most immature and moronic thing I've ever seen. Obviously there's a few things about that person that's obvious:

1) the person is a moron
2) the person is ignorant of satan
3) the person has too much time/money
4) the person thinks he/she is "cute"

Not funny anymore. Of course I expect some lame-o response like "you did well, young padowan" or "bring my disciples back."

More evidence that this person is as ignorant of the powers that be than I expected. Don't even bother apologising, you've offended me more than you realise. Until you've experienced demonic possession, don't even bother replying. If you so much as try a phrase like "I am a demon, possession is impossible" I'll report you to the powers that be on this forum.

Some things just hit closer to home than you'd expect. I figure by now you just don't give a crap though. Not like anyone cares.

Shut up and get out, no one needs a jack ass like you on here.
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
I am going outside my previously-established resolve to cease posting to this forum, in order to let everyone know who this new user, godofthisworld is. Some of you think it is me. I've said to some others in another forum that I have no inclination or use for an alias.

godofthisworld is my father, otherwise known as secondsamuel. Don't try to deny it, dad. You may think I have no evidence to support this knowledge, but there are things you don't know.

I am 100% certain that godofthisworld and secondsamuel are the same person. He requested that I quit the forum because it was causing him unnecessary stress. He said that if I did step off, it would open the door to reconciliation between he and I. But now, he has dishonored our agreement, and has used this childish disguise in an attempt to personally slander me.

Really, the only thing that bothers me is that some people think it is me doing this. It is not in my character to hide behind a false front and throw idiotic insults simply for my own satisfaction.

Thanks tkeeley

so long all - (until there is some other reason for me to come back)
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  godofthisworldposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  good work my child
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have my blessings ,satan is harmless juts a joke- laugh him off- humour him.I believe you are walking the godly path and not the satanic path.Keep studying all religions and spiritual practices.Like t.keeley just said he is a jerk.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why am I not surprised at this. This is just another example of your character.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. A chip off the old block. Like Father like Son. You are what you produce.
  Shall I continue.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So what? you're going to try and insinuate that you aren't this new user? We both know you are. You dishonored our agreement. That's the same as lying. And since you did that, the agreement is void. I quit this because I love you and want a relationship with you. You don't seem care at all about that.
  
  Why are you not surprised? You're not surprised because, yes, it is in my character to not allow you to lie and sneak around. Not that I can really do anything about it.
  
  It seems to me that your reputation on this website is more important to you than your relationship with your son. Well, it isn't to me. And it never will be. So whenever you decide to stop being a creep to me, I'm here waiting.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am not who you claim (godofthisworld).
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You must think I don't know. Now you're lying. I know it's you, and so do you. Now you're protecting your reputation again.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry, I am just laughing a bit; isn't the god of this world called Satan? lol
  The whole scenario is so rediculous.
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  secondsamuelposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are making these false accusations in an attempt to irritate me and get me all rowled up and I must say that it is beginning to work. If you have positive proof that (godofthisworld) is me then spit it out. You can't prove something to be true if it is false. I don't have any idea who it is that is doing this, but I sure wished he/she/it would stop. I am beginning to think that it is you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We could ask the gods of hubpages to sort it out and tell us if the IP address matches either of yours.
  
  Just a suggestion......
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  oh snap!!! HP ADMIN!!! WHERE ARE YOU????
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, great idea. How do we do that? I'm all for it. Lets do it.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Dad, if it isn't you, then I'm sorry. I really am not trying to irritate you. But I'm convinced it is you. If I turn out to be wrong, then I'll respectfully apologize. I suppose it is possible I am wrong.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
LOL guys, you are making the things even more interesting. Keep going, I'll keep watching
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Personally I think it's one of the godless.

A couple of them seem to be enjoying this thread too much.

But good idea.

HP Admin?

Two accounts is one too many per the TOS isn't it?
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Well if you are convinced then check it with the HP Admin yourself.

And when you are proven wrong don't just apologize to your dad, apologize to the forum for your showboating.
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  t.keeleyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Doesn't matter who it was, the user was highly offensive in every regard, and frankly people should be able to rise above such infantile activity.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I agree. I'm not without my own faults, though. I forgive my dad for doing this.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  come on...this is entertainment. Really, you can't get this on Fox reality shows. lol.
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
I checked with admin and they said there is no evidence that godofthisworld and secondsamuel are the same person. But that doesn't mean it isn't him. I know my dad enough to know that this is exactly the kind of thing he would do. Plus I have other evidence that confirms it. I am still convinced it is him. He must be using another computer.

It should be understood why I sould react to this new user the way that I have. He came into being for the sole purpose of messing with me. This user also commented on one of my hubs. I was the prime target of godofthisworld's attacks from the moment he was created. The only thing that would convince me that it isn't my dad is if he would call me and assure me of it. I don't think he would be able to lie to me in person.
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viralprospectorposted 15 years ago
Maestrowhit;

Since the post is on your hub from Godofthis world, you have the IP address. Please post it here. I am curious to see where this has originated. No one else knows the address but you...
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
Well, I'll be. I just learned something new. Thanks VP. I found out the location of godofthisworld.

the IP address is 64.234.82.250

That is in Clemson, SC. That is less than ten miles from my dad's home in Seneca, SC.

Hmmm... how coincidental is that? Someone just down the road from my dad decided to create an account on this website for the sole purpose of harrassing me. He came directly to this forum right after I agreed with my dad to step off, and he also harrassed me on my own hubs.

Now those are some pretty steep odds.

Busted, Dad!

Own up to it, why don't you?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  oh snap! I think it is looking pretty suspish now... I think we need a jury and a judge and the whole shabang!
  
  -second anyone?-
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t.keeleyposted 15 years ago
Sandra dear....you made me chuckle for the first time in days
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maestrowhitposted 15 years ago
The funniest part about this is that this is the only way I can get my dad to talk to me. Otherwise, I'd rather he and I solve our problems without bringing the entire world into it. That doesn't work, though. Whenever we reach a serious disagreement, He drops out of sight, and doesn't allow me to reach him in any way.

Oh, well. At least this is providing some entertainment for you all.

All I really want is a normal relationship with my dad. I don't think he wants that though. All I can do is wait, and maybe he'll send me an email or something.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am sure it is overwhelmingly frustrating to you. Short personal story, but funny. My own mom, she's dingy and stubborn, she is always right no matter what.
  
  So, I love my mom to death, no question about it but...I can't stand her. lol. So I get to have the last laugh that I keep to myself, and that is to let those things go and accept her for exactly the way that she is.
  
  When she says something utterly rude and not well thought out and pretty hurtful, I just remember, that it is my mom and no matter how hurtful her words are to me, I know that what she says and what her heart is saying are two different things.
  
  So, I constantly remind myself that I know she loves me and I love her no matter what, so I shut my mouth and just let her do whatever she feels compelled to do because that is her. There ain't no changing that old salty dog. lol.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It looks like I'm gonna have to do the same thing if I want him to ever talk to me. He's hiding from me, and won't let me into his life. Now that I caught him in a lie, he's making himself even more scarce. He doesn't want a son unless that son agrees with everything he says. That sucks.
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Maestro, if you got what Sandra was saying, then you'll shut up. She's telling you to quit looking at just yourself and do something for the sake of the relationship you keep saying is so important to you, because having a son or daughter that will not shut up is no fun either.
  
  I really must be dreaming. First I take up for an Atheist. Now I take up for a????? .......a ahhhh,............I've learned to never describe a Lady with any words other than her own. So, Sandra, how do you describe yourself? However, you describe yourself, that's who I'm taking up for in this instance! Whew!
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol, a human!
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Taking up for her? You really think everything is a fight, don't you? I wasn't arguing, I was agreeing. And I'll apply a good word of advice (Sandra's word, that is) to my family matters in the way that best suits them.
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  Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Some things are worth fighting for. A Father-Son relationship is one of them. Good Advice, even when it comes from a self described human, is another.
  
  And I know that you got it, but continuing to get digs in at your father's expense only proves that you were not putting the advice into practice. That was my point.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  good point, Ben.
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
"He doesn't want a son unless that son agrees with everything he says." Have known a number of people with this problem, and as much as mothers demanding their daughters conform to some riduculous standards or other. Have to go your own way. Their problem is their problem.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm slowly coming around to that. But it's tough. Hard to do it all at once. Have to slowly let go.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You cannot stop for anyone however hard its is once you start walking the path to God-keep going everything will fall into place.
  I am thy shield and exceedingly great reward-The Holy Bible-have faith .
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, Mohit's family hates him for persuing his call. So sad, but I guess that is reality.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They did ,one needs to do what he or she has to do, no matter what the consequences
  
  Walking the spiritual path is very difficult and one will require to make a lot of personal sacrifices.
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sandra rinckposted 15 years ago
some fine "devil" music- listen to the lyrics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ6FbEmDDcU

here are the lyrics.
Life is a waterfall
Were one in the river
And one again after the fall
Swimming through the void
We hear the word
We lose ourselves
But we find it all....
Cause we are the ones that want to play
Always want to go
But you never want to stay
And we are the ones that want to choose
Always want to play
But you never want to lose
Aerials, in the sky
When you lose small mind
You free your life
Life is a waterfall
We drink from the river
Then we turn around and put up our walls
Swimming through the void
We hear the word
We lose ourselves
But we find it all...
Cause we are the ones that want to play
Always want to go
But you never want to stay
And we are the ones that want to choose
Always want to play
But you never want to lose
Aerials, in the sky
When you lose small mind
You free your life
Aerials, so up high
When you free your eyes eternal prize
Aerials, in the sky
When you lose small mind
You free your life
Aerials, so up high
When you free your eyes eternal prize
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viralprospectorposted 15 years ago
Maestrowhit;

I see that it is advice time. How humorous this is. You may want to sprinkle in a little Biblical advice with that you are receiving here. Hey, just a thought...

For that, I would read and study (mostly study Acts chapter 21 - the end of Acts). I know how you like me to post scripture (inside joke, huh?) In the possible event that you do not see my point, I will give it (even though you have claimed you basically just want me to quote scripture). Sorry atheists, I cannot do what he asks (quote scripture) and do what you ask (not quote scripture).

Paul gets prophetic advice not to go to Jerusalem. He is told that he will suffer, just as he does. However, the beauty of this is that Paul is guided by the Holy Spirit. Paul knows that God will care for him and wants him to go there. The rest of the chapter shows that doing God's will trumps all earthly advice. Paul sacrificed for us all. His work was good and now speaks for itself. All the advice to Paul here was well intentioned. It would have spared Paul much suffering, but today all the world would be worse off. God does have a plan for His children, and they know it.

Eve did not do so well for Adam, either, huh (oh, Genesis 3)? That is another aspect of advice. Much advice you get here is from professed atheists. Satan is a great deceiver, and that is not well intentioned advice from him. Satan can work through others, such as Eve.

You know it is funny that what I considered bad advice at your age is the advice I am now giving to my kids. You don't need advice, you need a savior. While there are over 600 commandments in the Bible, only through decades of careful study are you ready to follow them.
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  maestrowhitposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am releived that you and I seem to finally be on good terms. You have some very useful things to say. Thanks for the scripture. I'll read up on that. It's funny you mention Adam and Eve because right before reading your post here, I published a new hub about the fall of man. You probably won't agree withme about all of it, but that's ok. Thanks for your kindness.
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  viralprospectorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Maestrowhit;
  
  I am also glad when we get along. Somehow, we have not done so well up to now. Let's start a new chapter. There will be no more meanness and wrong interpretations, OK? Don't answer because I know that that is what you want, too. I accept the blame for it going astray. Again, don't answer, OK? Let that be the end of strained relationships! I can do better...
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t.keeleyposted 15 years ago
I thought this was hilarious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OebZJzB7W_c
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selfdefensecliqueposted 14 years ago
hey your hub is really nice and i really liked it i found it very interesting and think that you have done a great job. good going.. keep it up....
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