To Breed or Not To Breed....

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   bonnebartronposted 12 years ago

   I love my animals, and all of them have either found me, or I have gone to the pound in search of them... No matter how we get them we love them to death! So why do people keep going to breeders?
   
   For more on my opinions on this subject check out my best friend here---->
   
   Just saying, no breeder could have ever created my Serendipity Do Da!
   
   
   
   

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      tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      looking at this from the pets POV...animals could care less if they are papered or not. they arent fixated on themselves like humans are. all they care about is having someone to love, food to eat and a home to call their own. animals who have been rescued...KNOW they were rescued, and show it. i have been rescuing cats for the last 12 yrs. atm i have 16. all came off the streets, some almost dead when i brought them home. i got a ferret from the pound once. probably the only animal to date i have gotten there. as far as pet shops getting their animals from the pound, that would be awesome...but they would never do it...most pet shops that sell puppies and kittens get them from puppy and kitten mills. the rare one will get them from local breeders.  since we have so many unwanted pets out there, i think breeding should be limited to one or two breedings (for those who just have to have show animals and to keep certain breeds pure and alive)...i encourage animal lovers to rescue their next pet, either off the streets or via the shelters. they wont regret it.

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      DrMark1961posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Well, I am happy you were able to find the dog you wanted but not everyone is so fortunate. You picked up a little puppy and trained her the way you wanted her to be. Most of the dogs in shelters are already adults, not little puppies,as was your dog when you brought her home. Most of the dogs in shelters were never trained, were never socialized, and some of them have serious or minor health issues.
      The other thing we have learned is that behavior has a strong genetic component. If the father and mother of the puppy are both shy and are fear biters, the puppy will probably be shy and a fear biter. Breeders know this now and do not breed fear biters. A back yard breeder or puppy mill will breed whatever happens to be available. Your dog is not a fear biter? Great. Are some of the dogs available at the shelter going to be fear biters? Definitely.
      You are patting yourself on the back by asking this question but I want to ask you a question. Whether you answer or not is immaterial, but you should at least answer to yourself honestly. Would you have picked up Serendipity if she was a year old and if her first action was to bite your hand and then pee in your car?

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         bonnebartronposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         So, let me guess, you breed dogs huh?
         You are so right, Seren is amazing and I was totally lucky. That said, my first dog was a rescue from the pound. Cutest thing in the world, and though her first year of life was full of abuse and she had no training at all (including potty), she ended up being the best dog ever. I had her until I was 18 and she was my best friend.
         If you want a dog who is pretty, vacant, and easy, (aside from the plethora of health problems thanks to a long line of incest) then sure, get a papered critter. More than likely they've had the personality bred out of them in addition to their "genetic components" that make them superior in your mind.
           But, if you are looking for a friend, not just a "thing" you can have obey you, I'll stick to my earlier statement and say ALL OF MY ANIMALS have been amazing and not all of them were young when I got them.
           There are no bad animals, just people who turn them that way from either ignorance, evil intentions, lack of love, or lack of patience. No matter what, no dog is easy, but nothing worth putting time and love into is.

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            DzyMsLizzyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You have hit the nail on the head, if you'll pardon the cliché!  It is just as my husband has said for years, "There are no bad dogs; only bad owners."
            Thank you so much for your support of rescuing shelter animals, most of whom would not be there if it were not for said bad owners!

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               bonnebartronposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Well said DzyMsLizzy! Thank you for your two cents! And BRILLIANT point, the only reason dogs end up in "Puppy Jail" is because their people sucked!

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                  DrMark1961posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  No, I am not a breeder.
                  Your logic is pretty amazing, though. "There are no bad animals" right after "they´ve had the personality bred out of them". Are you saying that some dogs are bad BECAUSE they have papers?

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                     bonnebartronposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Not even close, just because someone is vacant doesn't make them a bad person. The same can be said about dogs. I prefer intelligence, but some people prefer things that just follow orders.

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                        DrMark1961posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Your comments continue to amaze me. Are you saying now that all purebred dogs are stupid (or not intelligent)?

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                           bonnebartronposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           lol, I'm starting to think that perhaps you are just trying to bait me. I'm not saying anything against pure-breds, except for the fact they have a TON more health problems (this is coming from a few veterinarians I know). What I am saying is that on average, pure bred dogs are less intelligent because, like inbred humans, their genetic code is not diversified enough.
                             In any case, animals, pure bred or mutt, can change. They are not doomed to be bad because they were treated poorly. If a person is a bad pet owner, then they have a bad animal. PERIOD!   Adoption is the best way to ensure that we humans are not the reason for the very inhuman treatment of such wonderful love machines.

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                           tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           why is it that some people take forums to be there personal soap boxes? is there really a good excuse to argue this point? cant you discuss it wihtout attacking anyone? this is one reason i try to avoid forums. this is so immature. keep it up and you will have lost a follower...if i even followed you in the first place, i cant remember.

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                              tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              i just checked...i never followed you. i feel relieved in knowing that. dont take it personal or take offense, it is simply that i find i dont have much in common with you or your viewpoint. no offense intended mark.

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                              DrMark1961posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Did I come up with "so, you must be a breeder, right?". I could have said "so, this must be a paid endorsement of the HSUS and you are an agent of PETA, right?" No, the point is, tlmcgaa70, that this is a discussion on purebreds and mixed breeds. It has nothing to do with soap boxes. The whole point in a discussion is to discuss.

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                                 tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 then try to discuss it without arguing. we are all adults here. lets act like it.

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   paradigmsearchposted 12 years ago

   I wonder if pet shops renew their cat/dog inventory by going to the pound? If not, why not?

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      bonnebartronposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Most of them don't but GOOD POINT!

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      DzyMsLizzyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Excellent point, indeed!

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      Sarra Garrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Great question!  I worked for a well known pet store that promoted they were a 'no kill' store and had adoptions for dogs on the weekends.  However, these were greyhounds only adoptions.  I asked why they didn't use dogs from shelters and never got a real answer.  Hmmm  Pet stores need to stop selling dogs they get from puppy mills and start supporting local shelters to find these wonderful dogs a home.  I have 5 dogs whom have all been rescued and they are the best friends I've ever had.

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         kathleenkatposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         This may be for liability purposes. Shelter animals often don't have a known past history, so blame could easily be pointed at the pet store if nobody else. From a breeder, typically the breeder is liable.
         
         My dad adopted a dog from the pound, and it turned out to have a bad habit of biting men with deep voices. Who knows what the dog went through in the past, but my dad had to give it back to the pound because he couldn't be liable for random injuries. With breeders, they know when and where they were born, and who raised them, so any signs of abuse or problems can be traced back to the breeder. In short, pet stores buy from breeders for "quality assurance of their product" Yeah, I know. Sad, but these bred dogs need love too!

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      jenb0128posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I can't speak for all shelter and stores, but I just finished a summer job at one of my local animal shelters. We had partnerships with a couple local pet stores and often had adoption events at those stores. Those stores didn't sell their own cats or dogs, though.

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   The Writers Dogposted 12 years ago

   My beautiful chocolate Labrador, Rusty, and I are coming up on the third anniversary of finding each other. Not only is he the smartest dog I have ever had the honour of being a human to, he is a lot smarter than too many humans that I deal with in my daily life.
   
   BTW... in forty years, I have never had a pet shop dog or cat. They have all been adopted from the pound, or free to good home when their human could no longer look after them.
   
   

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      bonnebartronposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      And he is BEAUTIFUL! Thank you SO much for sharing your story!

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      Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Absolutely beautiful boy, that one!    You're a lucky one for sure.

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   Reality Bytesposted 12 years ago

   I have adopted dogs as old as six before and had many years of fun and love with them.  One of my current dogs was given to me because his owner thought he was broken,  he wouldn't listen or behave.  I have had him for six years now and he is the best and most intelligent dog I have ever met.  He was smart enough to know his last owner thought of him as property and did not respect him.  I showed the guy love, and was rewarded 100 fold!  He does things now before I tell him!  A Belgian Shepard!
   
   
   
   Not mine, but it sure looks like him..

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      Shaddieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Belgian shepherds are beautiful, sturdy dogs, and I am jealous!

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   PurvisBobbi44posted 12 years ago

   I have adopted from a shelter and bought from pet stores. And I can tell you I have loved them all.  I have had a pets most of my life and I hope will always have them.

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   alexadryposted 12 years ago

   I have fostered and trained dogs for my local shelter and they turned out being highly intelligent, superb companions that just needed a bit of TLC. Mutts have what they call "hybrid vigor" and may be far healthier than an average purebred dog. If people would go more to shelters to get dogs there would be less pet overpopulation problems and less backyard breeders. These dog can give back so much unconditional love! Bless your heart for rescuing!

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   Stacie Lposted 12 years ago

   Yes, everyone should get their pets from the pound or streets. None of my pets ever came from a breeder or store.

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   bonnebartronposted 12 years ago

   It warms my heart to see so many loving, caring people adopting friends! I think if people only knew how much better it is for the animals, and their humans to find friends who need a home! I'd love to hear all of your stories, and I invite you to post them on my hub "The Best Of Friends Cannot Be Bought" or write your own hub and send me the link! Thank you again for loving the fur bearing critters!

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   jenb0128posted 12 years ago

   I'm all for adopting from a shelter or rescue instead of buying (even my bird is a rescue).
   
   As far as shelter dogs being untrained, as somebody who worked at an animal shelter this summer, I have to admit that there's some truth to that. Our dog kennels were filled with adult dogs (very few puppies), and over half were untrained - I was so bruised and banged up by the time I finished my three months at the job that my doctor thought I was in an abusive relationship. Trying to wrangle some of the dogs to take them for their outside time was like being a rodeo. HOWEVER, we also had quite a few mild-tempered and lovable dogs, and many of the hyper dogs and biters were rehabilitated by our trainers. A lot of them were just full of pent up energy from being in their pens most of the time. Sure, we took them to the outside dog runs twice a day and had volunteers come in to walk them, but being out for about an hour total per day simply isn't enough for most dogs.
   
   Anyway, my point with all that was to say that yes, some shelter dogs (and cats) take extra work and effort, but just because they have behavior issues in the shelter doesn't mean they will always have behavior problems. It's definitely a rewarding feeling to help an animal "come around."

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10. 83

    kathleenkatposted 12 years ago

    I don't think there is a problem with getting animals from breeders. I have gotten my pets from pet stores, the Human Society, cat shelters, and have even found a few stray kittens.
    
    No matter where I found them, I love all my animals, past and present

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11. 78

    jenniferrpoveyposted 12 years ago

    If nobody buys from responsible breeders, however, then we will see fewer responsible breeders.
    
    The 'nobody should ever buy from a breeder' attitude is a fallacy. What IS true is that you should not buy from pet stores (even pocket pets). Pet store pets generally come from 'mills' where females are bred to death and the resulting offspring are not properly trained or socialized.
    
    If you want a purebred puppy or kitten, find a breeder who is making the kind of dog you want. A responsible breeder will take a puppy back if it does not work out, or even if you can't keep it any more. A responsible breeder does not produce many litters and breeds primarily to improve their own program. (In working breeds, look for a breeder who is breeding 'performance' dogs rather than 'conformation' dogs, as they tend to value health and temperament more than looks). You should at least be able to see the dam, possibly the sire of the pups and possibly older siblings. You should be able to get references from previous purchasers. And a responsible breeder will not sell you an unsuitable dog. You can also get adult purebreds from specialist breed rescues, if you would rather not deal with training a puppy.
    
    If you want a mutt, or don't really care what breed you get, then go to a shelter...but make sure it's a reputable shelter. There are animal rescues out there that aren't any better than the puppy mills. Check their reputation, too. Will THEY take the dog back if it doesn't work out?
    
    Bear in mind that if you adopt, the animal will certainly be on a spay/neuter contract. Most responsible breeders also only allow pet quality puppies to go on a spay/neuter contract (and seriously vet the homes breeding quality animals go to). (In horses, a no-breed contract is standard for mares as very few vets can spay a mare safely and correctly even now).
    
    Also, note that some shelters have excessively strict adoption requirements. (The local humane society here would adopt to me if they found out my mother-in-law had a barn cat, because they will seriously turn people down if FAMILY MEMBERS allow cats to go outside).
    
    Oh, and another great option if you want a quiet adult dog is to talk to a greyhound rehoming society. Off the track greyhounds are awesome dogs, although not to everyone's taste.
    
    Pet stores are what you should avoid.

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       jenb0128posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I just have to point out that not ALL pet stores are bad. A couple stores in my area work with local shelters to host "adoption events" rather than sell their own cats and dogs. I also adopted my rescued bird from a pet store that specializes in birds and hosts bird rescues.

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          jenniferrpoveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You're right. I meant purchasing from a pet store rather than adopting through one. Those pet stores that buy puppies and kittens and even smaller animals do so as cheaply as they can, which is not good for the animals.
          
          Pet store sponsored adoption events work well.

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12. 73

    Shaddieposted 12 years ago

    People go to breeders because, ideally, they are looking for a dog with a specific temperament (or at least a dog which will most likely behave in certain telltale ways) and a specific look. Purebred dogs produced in appropriate conditions by experienced and knowledgeable breeders will be dogs that are more or less true to the breed standard in both personality and appearance. This makes them easier to identify for some people, and easier to match up with their own lifestyles.
    
    For example: someone who is a homebody should not go out and buy a purebred border collie. A responsible breeder will not sell a border collie to a homebody, and a homebody that does her research will not want one. However, at the pound, anyone can rescue a border collie cross pup on accident simply because it was just too cute to resist. This familiar story will most often end in heartache because the two are not a good match...
    
    Mutts are up in the air, they could be anything, act like anything, and sport a host of unknown diseases that are common in whatever breeds they hail from. Purchasing one at face value or even after just a few hours of meeting can result in unfortunate endings because the owner just had no idea what to expect. I'm not saying that purebred dogs never get abandoned, but it's more likely someone did their research on the purebred that they purchased... Simply because there IS information out there about purebred dogs!
    
    (I currently own one 110 lb mutt, but in the future I intend to own multiple Dobermans. It doesn't matter where your dog comes from, as long as the pros outweigh the cons and you both love each other.)

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       tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       does anyone recall after the movie 101 dalmations came out everyone just had to have a dalmation? no one did any research on the breed, they rushed out and got themselves the cute little dalmation puppy. many ended up tossed away because they were to hyper a dog. i ended up with a little baby one that someone dumped. i didnt keep him long because my cousin and his wife and daughter fell madly in love with him and begged me to give him to them. they had him for his lifetime. he was treated like a son. as for mutts having a host of diseases from the breeds in them...they tend to have fewer diseases because their mixed parentage has a way of strengthening their immunity to the purebloods diseases. you have far less deaf mixed breed dalmations than you do pures.

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          kathleenkatposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I think that stands true for a lot of things; not just dogs, and not just animals, too.
          
          I remember having trouble adopting a kitten from the humane society around October 31st, because she was all black. They would not let me get her until after Halloween. I have adopted a few black cats in my lifetime, actually, and every time I do I get a huge "thank you!" because they are always the last ones left. What you say about dalmatians is the same kind of thing with black cats; people view animals as things, and 'don't want a black one' or 'wants a spotted one' based on vain reasons.
          
          That is why so many animals end up homeless

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             jenb0128posted 12 years agoin reply to this

             You're so right about black cats! When I worked at the animal shelter, I heard "I don't want a black cat" at least once a day, if not more. I also always thanked those who did want a black cat.... so, thank you!

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          Shaddieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          tlmcgaa70, I already said I didn't deny that purebreds go through the same misery that mutts can go through when people don't do their research. But it is still true that more people are likely to research these animals before buying. After all, they are paying upwards of $100 to $500 to even $2000 for them. Dogs from shelters are dirt cheap. I purchased my pup for a whopping $45 dollars. If that isn't incentive for wanton behavior, I don't know what is.
          
          I would also like to add that the farce that mixed breed dogs have less diseases common in purebred dogs is just that - a farce. In actuality, following the scientific knowledge we have of genetics, we know that these diseases do not "magically" go away once two breeds come together. Instead, the puppies produced from a German shepherd with a history of degenerative myelopathy and a Doberman with history of Von Willebrand disease will of course now be subject to the possibility of both crippling diseases, rather than just the possibility of one.
          
          There is absolutely no basis behind the uneducated theory that "mutts are healthier." Anecdotally, I've met more mutts with problems than I have purebreds, and I work in the vet industry. This may simply be because there are more mutts available, however.

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    jenniferrpoveyposted 12 years ago

    I anecdotally know of at least one humane society who will not adopt to anyone who expresses a preference for a black cat because they really do think the only reason anyone wants a black cat is either as a costume prop or for 'devil worship'.
    
    Which annoys me. I know what color of cat I want if I eventually get one. Because they are always the last ones left AND because I have a terrible weakness for black critters.

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       Shaddieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Yes... Many shelters have "secret" policies such as this. Many rescue groups really do sabotage themselves in this way. I have learned over the years not to tell anyone what I'm looking for when I go in - I just look for myself.

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       jenb0128posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       At the shelter I worked at, we always got excited when somebody said they did want a black cat. We had SO many black kittens that needed homes.
       
       I know quite a few people who simply prefer black cats (and they aren't devil worshippers) - my mom is one. I can understand shelters not wanting to adopt black cats out right around Halloween, but to deny them to people who just prefer black cats is silly, in my opinion.

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    jenniferrpoveyposted 12 years ago

    Yeah. The Halloween issue is that some people will actually adopt a black cat as a *costume prop* and then return it after the party.
    
    No kidding. People can be so shallow. (I've also heard of people surrendering a pet because it doesn't match their new decor...of course, I also know people who would probably redecorate the house to match the pet).

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