Question on defining adult content - nudity in classical art

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sockiiposted 9 years ago
I have one art tutorial which was fine on Squidoo for 3+ years, but I'm wondering if it will be acceptable on HubPages because it features classical painting artistic nudity.

It is a tutorial based around reproducing an old master painting, by Titian, talking about the grisaille technique. The original painting is one on display in a museum (National Gallery of Scotland, Edinburgh) where children are allowed to view it alongside adults with no warnings, no screenings, etc.

But I am worried that HubPages may not follow the same guidelines for educational/artistic nudity, even if the intent of my lens is art instruction and certainly not any prurient interests. So what are the limitations? Should I pre-emptively move this lens to my own art site or will it be allowed here (so I don't lose the connection with my other art tutorials previously published.)
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It will be OK to publish, but without AdSense ads. So, turn those off and settle for Amazon products.
  
  This is not a Google AdSense policy, but HP's interpretation of Google AdSense policy.
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  KathyMcGraw2posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I would ask for a manual review. We know very well how interpreting a filter can be, and someone else asked for a review on something and got the equivalent of a green light.
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That's cool if it doesn't pass QAP. But, if she just turns off AdSense, it should pass QAP without a problem. Lots of Hubs have pictures of such paintings (full frontal nudity by old masters, paintings hanging in museums all over the world). It won't be a problem. I have a Hub like that and, yes, it was looked at by staff once and it got the official seal of approval.
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  But what if ads are permitted? How will she ever know? Of course, there's a good chance they won't be, because it is nudity, but a manual review would be better in order to be absolutely sure. It's also classical art and educational. And even if the painting does feature nudity, it might not be showing any 'bits and pieces'--leg positions, strategically placed fabric etc.
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  relacheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  This.
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely.
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  Marina Lazarevicposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  sockii, if you ever have a question about whether a Hub is in violation of HubPages' policy or ad safety requirements, you can do as many here have suggested and email us at team@hubpages.com for a manual review. That's really the best course of action.
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  sockiiposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, I will do so! (Once I have taken care of basic transfer issues and getting it technically in a place I am comfortable with.)
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  gmwilliamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!
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sockiiposted 9 years ago
Thanks for the comments so far. I'd be fine if I could just earn off of Amazon sales on the hub in question - that is where most of my art tutorials have mostly succeeded in the past, and it's the only one in this niche/series of mine that features a female nude. I just didn't want there to be huge issues of including it in my portfolio. I haven't touched it yet since import since I was concerned on this issue, so I might just disable ads to be on the safe side with it. The original painting in question which I write about doing a reproduction of is this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Anad … 8Titian%29
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That pic will be fine on HP without AdSense.
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  neosurkposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you got a reply from HP. But here's something I found interesting:
  
  "When in doubt about whether an image or text might be construed as adult content, our rule of thumb is this: if you wouldn’t want a child to see the content or if you would be embarrassed to view the page in front of colleagues, then it’s probably not family-safe and you shouldn’t place AdSense ad code on it. We appreciate your help in making the network a balanced ecosystem where users, publishers, and advertisers can grow and thrive together."
  
  So, I suppose it does not violate AdSense policy on adult content? This is from three years back: Policy Tips - Keeping the network family-safe
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  Paula Atwellposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I would guess that this case does not violate Adsense. But it is always best to err on the side of caution.
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Paula Atwellposted 9 years ago
Isn't it nice that we can ask for a manual review and get one fairly rapidly?
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  Ramkitten2000posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Very!
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makingamarkposted 9 years ago
The thing which struck me is it really isn't necessary to use a nude to provide a tutorial around grisaille.

Why not just have a rethink around the the subject matter used in the hub content?
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Aren't you the one who was asking if it's possible to have a child friendly zone free of adult content? http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/124544 I can assure you, there is nothing smutty about Titian's Venus Anadyomene.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Titian (Tiziano Vecelli) wasn't the only artist acclaimed for a Venice nude.
  
  The finest artists in the world have painted Venus in various forms of undress including Joshua Reynolds, Paris Bordone, Antonio Allegri da Correggio, Annibale Carracci, Luca Cambiaso, Jan van Scorel, Giovanni Antonio Pellegrini, Lambert Sustris, Carlo Cignani, Diego Velázquez, Peter Paul Rubens, Lorenzo Lotto, Pierre Mignard, Lucas Cranach, Nicolò dell'Abate, Alessandro Allori, and – more recently – François Boucher, Solomon Joseph Solomon and William Etty.
  
  Even in prudish Victorian England, these works were never considered pornographic or something that children should not view.
  
  Every artist in the world with a degree in art (or art history or humanities) has studied these paintings and, yes, they are used in art tutorials about the artists. How could they not be?
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  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That's a lot of old, dead, naked ppl.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, the artists probably were't naked while they painted (or were buried) – just Venice and her baby Cupid.
  
  There's a statue of Venice in the Vatican. It's there because that was the place of a temple to Venice, before the Vatican took it over and turned Venice into its Virgin Mary.
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Why are you addressing me???
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Because I agree with you that there is nothing smutty about that painting and that is the world's consensus, too!
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  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "the world" is a big word... unless "making a mark" is not of this world.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You might be on to something.
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Let's hope Makingamark read it--she's the one who seems to have some learning to do.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
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  KathyMcGraw2posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  WF.....is there a reason you find a need to talk about MAM or say rude things? This is the 2nd thread I have seen where there appears to be an issue. Even if you say you are only joking, we are too new to know your personality and it doesn't go over well. Just saying!
  
  ***I quoted the wrong thing, but my message is the same.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't say anything rude. Did you actually read this thread? MAM was criticizing another Hubber for using a picture of a very famous and well-regarded painting on her Hub. I'm not the only person who objected to the advice she gave.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It never occured to me to read it that way, and I think you're reading more into the post because of your history with MM. She was suggesting that a way around the silly "nudity" restrictions might be to use another painting that didn't feature a nude. Which is a perfectly sensible suggestion and doesn't say anything about whether she approves or disapproves of nudity, IMO.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I guess you didn't follow the link to her other forum post.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That link was posted after I'd read her post. Like I say, you're reading her post on this thread with that history in your mind - I read it without any history, so I didn't put any sinister interpretations on it.
  
  And BTW is anyone remembering the recent experience of another Hubber, who got rejected for Adsense because she had ONE Hub which had been approved to be published without ads? I don't know if Socki has her Adsense account yet but if not, I'd delay publishing this Hub just in case.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, 'sinister' is a strange word to use. And, I've never heard of anyone getting an AdSense account banned because they had a webpage WITHOUT AdSense ads!!!!!!!!!!
  
  Here's one of the posts:
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/124544
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  Marisa Wrightposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said, I don't think that link is relevant. You decided to take the comments in that link and impose them on her remarks in this thread, even though she herself didn't reference them. And if you look at her subsequent remark in this thread, you'll see that she meant her remarks exactly as I interpreted them.
  
  I can't find the thread now but there was a Hubber who posted here a few months ago to warn people based on her own experience. She's new, she applied for Adsense with 15 or 20 Hubs, and got rejected on the grounds of inappropriate content. One of her Hubs had been given manual approval by HubPages to be published (without ads). She unpublished that Hub, reapplied and got accepted.
  
  I had never heard of such a thing either.
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  sockiiposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I've had adsense in place for about three years now via my personal blogs and websites. (With never any issues)
  
  sockii with two ii's for the record. I'm kind of picky about that since it's been my online id for 20 years now
  
  Just to avoid all potential drama and noise I've disabled ads on the hub in question and may just move it entirely to one of my non-commerical websites when I can. I just don't have the time for that right now (with just learning yesterday that AllPosters disabled all NJ affiliate programs, so I have to go through all of my lenshubs to update for THAT, on top of trying to just update them for the transfer, never mind everything else this summer with finding new homes for my YCN articles, etc...can 2014 be over already?)
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  Paula Atwellposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, sorry hon, this kind of thing always seems to come at the worst time. What is the best replacement for Allposters? Do you think NJ residents have more of this coming?
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  Paula Atwellposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with both Kathy and Marisa. MaM was making a suggestion which sockii responded to. That should have been the end of that part of the discussion. The blatent badgering of MaM is a bit much. This is a forum for newbies and doesn't need to get nasty. Thanks Marisa for chiming in.
  
  I know this may be hard to integrate but many of us have been a community on Squidoo for many years. And there is nothing wrong with the use of the word veteran in this situation. Can we drop this and stop hijacking sockii's post?
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Just for newbies? Where in the world did you get that idea?
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  Jason Sositkoposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Was this not a "special section" for newbies to transition from Squidoo?
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  Paula Atwellposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Seriously, WF, this whole section of the forum is to help people transition in from Squidoo after having the massive shock of having one week to get ready for a totally surprise move, and then needing to learn an entire new system to change their entire list of articles to comply with. Some of us have been on Squidoo for its entire existence and many of our articles are that old. The rules and management of the platform are different here and this forum is to help people adjust.
  
  Yes, newbies to this platform.
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  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Paula, and welcome.
  I think you might mean "thread."
  "Forum" would be the each individual thread together as a whole.
  That would include arts, religion, food, hub help... etc. Maybe that's where the mix up is.
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  Paula Atwellposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Hi and thanks. No I mean section, not thread. The Squidoo community section of the forum http://hubpages.com/forum/category/7444
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  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ok.
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  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  C'mon now. Ppl have a right to share their opinions.
  How do you know that hubber is a she?
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You're right, and there's no way of telling.
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  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  My first thought was that he/she was a male 'cause of the name... Making a Mark. But who knows. It's all so secretive in our little internet world.
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  According to my experience, men don't tend to be quite as prudish, nor expect the world to revolve around children.
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  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That's why men suck. lol... just kidding!
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Let them suck--I like them like that.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Was that smutty?
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  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  See what happens when ancient pornography is brought into the forefront?
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There's the P word again. (Are children allowed to read this forum?)
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Nearly.
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  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  We'll just pretend we didn't get it. I call it my Gracie Allen look.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  (A man wouldn't have objected to the painting???)
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  Jason Sositkoposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  This comment is beyond ridiculous.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That really was a joke! Sorry.
  
  Rethinking this, all of the artists I mentioned were men....What does that mean?
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/124556#post2634283
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  KathyMcGraw2posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Making a Mark is a very established writer and artist. I really don't know why some of you are on her case like I've seen. Joking around is one thing, but not at the expense of someone else, especially one that is new and voices an opinion.
  
  If you guys aren't joking...then that's another story, one that will fragment people before they even get into the HP community. Me, I am open minded to HP but would stand by Making a Mark any day as I know her track record.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  If you want to read really fabulous art tutorials and see the works of an exceptional artist (and writer), I suggest you look at the Hubs written by Sockii. Most of the posters on this thread agree with Sockii's position on what is appropriate to include in her art tutorials and disagree with MAM's advice. If you consider that to be "on her case", then maybe this forum isn't the right place for her to comment on other people's work.
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  KathyMcGraw2posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I know Sockii....and I know MAM. Both are artists, and both are opinionated. I have read other things by Sockii that interested me more than painting techniques.
  
  All I'm saying is maybe you older members here don't realize how your playing, or whatever comes across. If you re-read some of the comments you might see what I saw.
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps Makingamark should consider how she's coming across.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, I read over the comments. Know what I saw? I saw someone calling other people names like "rude" and "total disrespectful." That's against the forum etiquette. I don't think some of the newer members have read the forum rules and realize how their posts here are "coming across."
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  KathyMcGraw2posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I am new and I will go re-read the rules.
  
  I thought I was in the part for the Squidoo newbies to learn, and that whatever veterans that came here were to help, not make fun of one of our Veterans.
  
  I stand by what I said, and if that means I get a 3 day ban....so be it!
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "Veterans" – Does that mean there was a war that we didn't even know about and now it is over?
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody here is being rude, but I think Makingamark is being very disrespectful towards the work of the OP. Please read this thread in its entirety before commenting!
  
  On this thread I link to a thread by Makingamark from yesterday, and judging by that, can only assume she has a great deal of learning to do.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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  KathyMcGraw2posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jayne I did read it, everything in it including the 2 opinions of a) not placing ads and b) asking for a review.
  
  I read MAM's comment to be one of offering another suggestion c) don't use the particular image. Then the OP came back and explained the lens/hub is about a technique she learned while recreating that master.
  
  And reading the back and forth of the other comments it seemed to me rude and what appears to be a total disrespect for someone many of us DO respect.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The suggestion to use a different image was to serve Makingamark's interests, and not Sockii's. We know from the thread I've linked to that Makingamark doesn't want things like nudity on HubPages. But the nudity featured in Titian's Venus Anadyomene cannot to be regarded 'adult content', nor in any way pornographic. To consider it such is nothing short of ignorance.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't see MM saying it was smutty. The OP has a problem - she can publish the Hub but she won't be able to make any money on it because the painting is nude. If she can use a painting that isn't a nude, her problem goes away. That's how I read it.
  
  I agree that classical paintings aren't normally considered as adult content and anyone who thinks they're pornographic needs their head read. Unfortunately whoever made the Adsense rules must have been one of the most prudish people on the planet. I imagine a little old Victorian lady who probably goes around knocking statues' penises off with her umbrella...
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I'd have read it in the same way as you, Marisa, if I hadn't seen her thread of the previous day ( http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/124544 ), which rather led me to think of the little old Victorian lady who probably goes around knocking statues' penises off with her brolly--oh my gosh; we've said 'penises'.
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  sockiiposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Um, because it's a tutorial based around a painting I actually did, using the technique, which took me about 3-4 months to complete start to finish? Not something I can just whip out again at the drop of the hat, building from scratch. I wasn't looking to create the be-all end-all page on grisaille but to illustrate the methods I used for one particular work.
  
  I have built my most successful Squidoo niche around oil painting tutorials of old master techniques, written as I was actively painting certain works - my work stands as the proof and examples of the techniques described. Grisaille is not my preferred method (I generally use verdacchio) so I'm not going to go through all of that again just for one tutorial. I'd rather just disable ads on this one page and allow it to stand as part of my general collection of art articles.
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Sed-meposted 9 years ago
It's so funny how that one little word "um," when used at the beginning of a sentence, speaks volumes. lol
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makingamarkposted 9 years ago
Thanks for your subsequent explanation Sockii. Your comment makes complete sense to me of the approach you propose to take and sounds very sensible. I hadn't seen your lens/hub and consequently didn't realise that you really wanted to use this particular example because of the amount of work you'd done on that particular painting - and hence material you already had for explanations of how grisaille works.

Thank you Kathy and Marisa for your comments.

What follows is the gist of a comment I will be sending to the HubPages Team with respect to this thread.

As Kathy and I both know from posts in other places, there are a lot of very new hubbers (i.e ex lensmasters) who are stating very clearly that they won't venture into the HubPages Forums because of the harassment of some ex-lensmasters and the "poisonous atmosphere" it creates. Their words not mine. Just saying.

It seems kind of ironic and really disappointing that:

1) ex-lensmasters can't post in a forum dedicated to their needs because they are frightened of the treatment they might get. That really is very sad. It's very kind and really constructive of HP creating this forum for us to ask our questions. It's so disappointing that what could be a very positive contribution towards people making a good start in HubPages should be damaged in this way.

2) It's also very sad that two people who have known each other and talked on a regular basis for years in other places can't have a conversation in this particular forum in a civilised way without interventions by others introducing notions which are not and were not part of their conversation.

3) the behaviour exhibited by some in the forums towards new people is in such complete and very marked contrast to that displayed by HubPages management and staff which has at all times been very civilised, very friendly and very helpful.

4) Outside of HubPages I have come across threads and read comments warning people away from entering the HubPages Forums based on some of the comments read and forum behaviour/moderation. From personal experience I can well understand why people are making these comments. My experience to date has been one of being stalked and harassed.

Ex lensmasters are wondering when and if the moderation of this forum will be strengthened with respect to the rule which states "personal attacks, hate speech, petty bickering, trolling, and thread hijacking are not tolerated.".
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Mark Ewbieposted 9 years ago
If they take petty bickering out that is most of my posts gone.

Agree with the other rules obviously.

I do remember my last ban which lead directly to a period of deep personal remorse. When I discussed it with my pastoral adviser he reminded me of the occasion when I was thrown out of Walmart for indecency with a pack of tomatoes. On that occasion the ban was deserved.

I only mention this because he had a picture of the Venus de Milo on his wall.
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  Writer Foxposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I remember that adviser, the one who got banned from the Squidoo forum. So don't feel bad. On HP it's called an 'inflatable shark moment.'
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Haha.
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  Paula Atwellposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, you are one of a kind and I am so glad to see that you won an award for your stick people.
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bobtyndallposted 9 years ago
ha ha ha
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Jayne Lancerposted 9 years ago
I posted two of these links on the other thread I've mentioned, but I think they might be helpful here, too. They're certainly interesting. The thread, which concerns a hub about gay butterflies on which ads were disabled, is two years old, but HubPages' and Google's stance on the matter of 'sensitive content' doesn't seem to have changed.

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/98806#post2113267

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/98806#post2113286

For anybody who doesn't know Jason Menayan, he was a staff member at the time of the thread.

And this is HubPages' ruling on adult content: http://hubpages.com/faq/#adult_topics

But, of course, nudity featured in classical paintings can't possibly be considered 'adult' or 'sensitive' content. Normally. It's a question of how Google's advertisers might view it.
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FanfrelucheHubsposted 9 years ago
So many rude people here, do they get awards for that? like the monster points on squidoo??
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  HomeArtistposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I noticed the same, too but it appears the rudeness is related to a select few. Nonetheless, I'm a bit gun shy about using the forums, now.
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  SmartAndFunposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry to see this happening. When I first started here, everyone was helpful to me, and I really appreciated it. It would be nice if Squidoo transplants received the same opportunity to learn from pleasant, helpful people.
  
  The religion and politics forums can get awful, of course, but the section titled "Getting Help from the HubPages Community" doesn't have to be that way.
  
  A couple of weeks ago the forums were flat and almost unused. The squids come over, and suddenly a few Hubbers start showing up all over the "get help" forum with their claws out. What is up with that? Does it make them feel powerful? Do they feel threatened? I have no idea.
  
  At any rate, my apologies to the Squubbers. Hang in there and things will get easier.
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Amber Sluiterposted 9 years ago
It is definitely quite appalling to see the negativity coming from the regular Hubbers. They should be ashamed of themselves.
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Marketing Meritposted 9 years ago
I had ads disabled on a hub that showed a public domain image of a Gil Elvgren sketch. I thought it was a lovely picture and the only nudity was a profile of a woman's breast. Nonetheless, HP moderators didn't agree.
Personally, I think they are over-sensitive about such things. However, it's always a risk you take when you publish on a third party site.
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jodijoyousposted 9 years ago
Sockii, ask them to review it. I did for one of mine and got a reply in a few hours saying the ads had been reinstated.
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  Jayne Lancerposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That's always the best course of action in such a situation, as Marina Lazarevic confirms on page one of this thread: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/124556#post2633418
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