Has anyone paid for these backlinks at all and had benefits from them ?
I keep seeing the advert so thought I would ask.
If they're from a bad neighborhood then you can kiss your Google rankings goodbye. It's better to write original content that will generate its own genuine backlinks.
A little over a year ago I bought into Angela Edwards backlink packages. I used them and got decent results but I found that over time 70 to 80 percent of those backlinks turned into nofollow. So, using her approach to finding backlinks, I started mining web 2.0 sites on my own and found that those were not nearly as saturated and most of the backlinks are still dofollow.
What I have noticed is that when a site becomes a PR5 or higher they start applying the "nofollow" attribute.
Mine the backlinks yourself and actually participate on those sites, even if its limited to once a month. OH and this is not a good idea for backlinking to individual hubs, only your own blogs or websites.
Not really most of them are no follows, and those that are do follows are just spammed with the same content over and over again. The exact same duplicate content only one of which will be indexed (in the long term) therefore not really providing very good "link juice".
My experience in buying backlinks is that it is not worth it... It depends I guess on if you buy a single backlink on the frontpage of a website with high PR. That could be worth it I guess, but don't buy backlink packages, it gave me absolutely nothing of worth...
unless you invested heavily on yourwebsite paying for backlinks is not necessary from my point of view though ı'm pretty beginner.
I have tried a few of the many semi-automatic link submitters online and have not been really pleased with the results. I believe it was in one of RyanKett's hubs that I read these types of services have a low success rate for links actually being created. I have found for instance on one I submitted to over 300 sites and after checking 100 of those sites only found my hub linked to 7 of them. So in my opinion it's probably not worth it and would probably hurt your exposure more than help it. Once you get the process down of having everything pasted to notepad and you have a decent list of high PR bookmarking sites you can feed em to those sites pretty quickly anyway.
Sorry Brettb, I don't agree with the first part of your comment. If that was the case then all one of my competitors would have to do is blast a whole bunch of links to my site from bad neighborhoods and he would kill all my rankings and dominate the first page. Inbound links from bad sites won't hurt you, they just won't help you. I have tested this on a number of sites and have not seem the results you are talking about.
What matters is if YOUR SITE is linking to bad neighborhoods. Then Google will sting you for it.
That being said, I totally agree with the second part of your comment. Create good unique content and publish it on as many different platforms as you can to have a natural looking link structure.
Personally I agree with brett. Hub pages has a great ranking with google. If you write quality content the traffic will come.
I do some backlinking with free sites not much though and my traffic is pretty good each day. Good luck
The question is how much do you think you will earn by doing this. My experience is that if I can trade links I do it, but paying for it. No way!
I never accept that basically because few links from PR2 sites are not going to make it or brake it for me.
I could just as well create / write few blogs about it get as much or more exposure.
From Googles advice on linking at http://www.google.com/support/webmaster … swer=66356 :
Examples of link schemes can include:
Links intended to manipulate PageRank
Links to web spammers or bad neighborhoods on the web
Excessive reciprocal links or excessive link exchanging ("Link to me and I'll link to you.")
Buying or selling links that pass PageRank
It's really very simple and actually all they needed to say was "Lnks intended to manipulate PageRank". That's your litmus test for anything you do in this area.
Are you linking to help people find your content or learn more detail about something you mentioned in passing? Great, do it. Are you linking to make Google think you are more popular than you really are? You are trying to manipulate and Google disapproves.
Some "big names" here will disagree with this - who you going to believe, them or Google?
I agree with you, but I would not say it is Excessive, but I have used it to get sites fast up and running. In my experience it has been just another addition to other things that I have used to get my sites ranked. It has helped me to get ranked higher and I have never seen that I have been punished for it.
I have not contacted people in "I link to you, and you link back", but used free automatic backlinking service.
Free backlinking is no different than arranging it yourself.
The only reaon Google includes "excessive" is because some reciprocal linking will occur naturally. If my Unix site links to another Unix site, they may have linked to me also without either of us ever being aware of the others actions.
Arranged linking violates Google's guidelines. Period.
So right you are. But again that is some thing that is beneficial and as long as it is not excessive google is not going to penalize you. That is also a fact.
Any way it is some thing that has proved for me as beneficial at early points of establishing website before organic links start to occur. I have used allot in the past and have never been penalized for it.
Something was at the back of my mind... Ah, now I remember.
I may be missing something here but surely any single backlink (let alone a link wheel) that I create at a site like Shetoldme or Xomba could be classed as a "link intended to manipulate PageRank"?
New product tools are repacked - ultimately there is nothing better than human anaylisis - google knows this - and doing it yourself. Be proactive and let the world know that you have great content worth reading by commenting on appropriate forums and creating decent backlinking content. This hubbing takes time to ferment like a fine wine, so write what you know. Everything here at Hubpages has given you all you need for success.
An unnatural spike in backlinks in a short time can be seen as, well, unnatural and frowned upon
Buying links can be a minefield so you need to do some background checks first. Selling links is against Google's TOS and often sites that have been identified as selling links are penalised so that no benefit is passed through links that point to external sites. So check that links that come from the URL’s where your links are placed show up amongst the backlinks of other pages they link too. Even if they have not been identified yet they could be in the future.
Links in the sidebar or footer of unrelated pages are probably worthless, if you are buying links ensure that they are contextual (from within the main body of content) and from related documents.
The worst that can happen is that Google discounts the bought links, your site won’t be penalised in any way. If there were any danger of penalties being incurred I am sure that some webmasters would deliberately pay for links to their competitors in order to damage their rankings.
These are the facts; the choice is up to you.
Yeah, "conscience". A commodity in short supply when considering most SEO advice published here.
Does it matter if Google delivers manipulated results? No, not at all - what matters is getting traffic to your pages by whatever means you can get away with.
Google gets suspicious when it sees too many new links? Slow it down - the links are still fake, but Google doesn't know that, so it is fine. What matters is what you can get away with, and that is all that matters to most.
Conscience - it has been made very clear in thread after thread that almost no one cares at all about THAT.
So, to the OP, if you can buy links that work, and you can do it without having Google toss them out as worthless, go right ahead. Don't even think about your conscience - almost no one else does!
What, in your opinion, would be the best way to acquire links in the amount needed to rank well and be successful online in a moderately competitive market?
By writing valuable content that people link to of their own free will - which is, of course, exactly what Google recommends. For example, I have linked to your hubs because I feel they are excellent tutorials. You didn't buy my links, you didn't trade for them, you didn't even ask for them, but I still created them.
That is how I do it, but I guess that is too slow for you, right?
and the blind to the need to be found in search results in the first place in order to receive a natural backlink award goes to....
Misrepresenting my statements again, so typical of you.
Don't listen to Google. Listen to Sunforged. He knows better.
Ok, so what you are saying is that for you it comes down to the quality of the content. Believe me there is nobody champions great content more than I do, but I cannot see how a webpage about bridging loans for example would ever see the light of day if it were to rely on quality of content alone.
Secondly, if it was down to the quality of content to attract links the best written pages would gain top rankings regardless of the quality of the products or the services being promoted.
I think the concept of quality has to extend further than the page itself and indeed this is the way that search engines work. IMO a reliance on just the quality of your written output is a great start but on its own probably not enough to get rankings in moderately competitive markets regardless of how long you are prepared to wait.
it is a dog eat dog world, isn't it!!
So, if you do not make backlinks, how much traffic do you think is possible - per day (5, 10, 50, 100 - 1000) just wondering. I have been using sites that have a do follow backlink as suggested by several hubbers - I am confused - were these suggestions made with or without a conscience?
So true - you can't hear, can you?
You can't hear anything that you don't want to hear. You don't care about anything but getting traffic, anything you can get away with is fine, who cares what Google thinks about it? If they can't catch you, do it, that is your advice in a nutshell, right?
No, It really works for sunforged! He has internet savvy and has been doing it for donkeys years. You cant knock it! It works for him
I know the stuff he does WORKS. That isn't the point.
Here is my point:
In order to defend another parties interest and system I have to believe that the system is inviolate.
I do not agree that current ranking algorithms are inviolate.
Particularly, in regards to the value given to age.
In many categories, Age, should be a devaluing factor.
I often search cutting edge topics, and I am inundated with search results that are archaic and outdated. These results, since they are first page results will continue to get "natural backlinks" - this has nothing to do with quality - this has everything to do with accessibility.
I promote in order to be accessible.
I dont disagree with PCunixs values about maintaining quality in ones work. I just refuse to be a passive player in my success.
Quality is subjective.
I would rather be a New York Times Writer and read David Foster Wallace books but USA Today remains the widest circulated print newspaper in the United States and Stephen King is still touted as great writer by the masses - this is the practical scenario you live in when attempting to be an online writer or producer.
Unfortunately, the moment money enters the picture you have entered into competition - the idealistic maxims that PC' presents are poor preparation for this competitive marketplace.
I just read through a couple of hubs and saw statements about "quality" "vanilla" "the hard work of easy money online" all of these are topics I have also touched on -
But any debates here in the forum with PCU seem to end with this questionHow can quality survive online in a competitive marketplace? and the crickets chirp when response time comes!
Its best to build your own backlinks free. Many people leave blog comments or become guest writers for other blogs. Writing on a high ranking blog with many readers (regardless of pagerank) helps make your url more popular AND its a perfectly acceptable way of getting a link out there. Even if its a blog with a pagerank 7 getting two links in one post to your Hub will not seen as a problem (the pagerank then comes with the popularity.)
What google really frowns upon is thousands of backlinks made automatically all at once. Saying that service for $10 is really worth it, if they know anything about SEO they would build the links over days of time, not all in 15 minutes. This seems to be more like "Faking Pagerank" compared to self methods.
Leaving usefil comments is indeed acceptable. So is guest posting. So are many other activities.
Google recommends a simple question: are you doing it for the benefit of readers? If you are, it is a good link. If you are doing it soldly to increase your rankings, it is not.
It really is that simple.
yes... it is about being natural. I know that fast backlinking does seem to have an affect, in what I have observed, on online reputation. But if Sunforged can do this automation backlinking without being sussed, then good luck to him! It is not for us to judge each other - we should just wish people well.
I highlight and support your response to the competition question that I have waited days and wrote thousands of words in discussion to finally read.
It is a naive response but it settles my curiosity. I can now live a troll free life.
I care about the fair opportunity to present well prepared information to those who query in a competitive world.
In a rat race , its best to be the cat. (Joshua Sunforged 2010)
PCUnix has been doing it far longer. Which is probably his impetus for supporting methods that would keep anything old from being overtaken
To stay on task
Buying backlinks from a service brazen enough to buy ads right from the adwords program is not advisable.
One would not be deindexed or devalued from using them but it is not likely you would benefit either.
PCunix, would you care to share your thoughts regarding my last post? I am genuinely trying to get an answer from you that shows how your 'idealistic' approach to SEO would be beneficial in a competitive market.
Sorry, I couldn’t think of a better word than idealistic and it's not meant to be derogatory in any way.
Yes, I will. Insuffucient time right niw, but I will.
Peter - I think my answer will be long enough to justify a hub. I will try to get to that soon.
However, the short answer includes Adwords, email, forum and newsgroup activity and of course Twitter abd Facebook when appropriate. I need to put a lot of caveats on each of those but my activites would always consider Google's "beneficial to readers" rule first.
Consider what businesses did before the Internet. Did they create fake customer testimonials? That is exactly what a link wheel and purchased or traded links are: fake testimonials.
And yes, some companies did use fake testimony. Do you admire that? Woukd you recommend that and say that not being willing to do that is unrealistic?
Is some one to say that my material is less "beneficial to readers" to readers than the material that is currently ranking well in google? You can of course sit and hope that readers will back link you and endorse your material in other means.
I think Google takes care of it self, if they think you are breaking their terms, they will not index you or leave your pages out. With google tools it is simple enough to see if that is the case.
The "beneficial" refers to links, not content, and yiu know that.
False links are false testimony. Do you deny that?
I would recommend that bileygur says "no comment" to the remainder of this interrogation until his attorney arrives.
I might be worried if I lived in the US. Probably be dead scared of PCUNIX by now
I see less harm in few exchange links than the useless spam of comments that some people offer us bloggers, just to get "do-follow" link to their material. If you go overboard, it is simple you have to take the punishment and that will be that Google will not index you.
It is then up to you to find the limit and google to find if you are over it.
To me this is just as simple as that.
None of this is new, this is exactly what SEO's do for a living day in day out. I am looking for the great differentiator that you seem to be promising but never quite manage to explain. What separates what you are championing to what I and most SEO's do already?
Just tell me what’s different please!
You must be very confused.
None of that includes link wheels, trading links or buying links. Why do you keep ignoring that?
I promised no magic. I complained about manipulating Google. You asked how else can one compete, I answered. I did not expect my answer to be any great revelation to you.
I don’t think I am confused what you are describing is in essence spam, not SEO.
All I am asking is that you explain the difference between what you are now suggesting and what SEO's traditionally do, NOT WHAT SPAMMERS DO.
Sunforged builds linkwheels. He is teaching people both how to do it and how to evade detection in the 60DC.
I presume these wheels are nit being built to promote spam.
Why do you continue to pretend that is not true?
I am not pretending anything. I don't use linkwheels nor do I advocate their use. Now, can you give me an answer to the question I have asked?
Ah - yet you jumped all over me for saying that Sunforged linkwheels are improper.
I have answered your question, but I guess I have to yet again: I see nothing wrong with any activity that is beneficial to readers. My objections in every single thread have been to linkwheeks, a-b-c schemes and the like and every time you have failed to understand that.
Every time you gave joined in the ridicule and insisted that I am naive and unrealistic, and yet, here we are - apparently we think exactly alike.
So - you do not approve of Sunforged promoting through linkwheeks? Good, we agree.
"I do not build link wheels , I do not actively promote link wheels." - Sunforged, 18/08/2010 20:13 GMT
PCunix, you have answered nothing. I hate it when people put words in my mouth, Sunforged has said unequivocally he does not build or promote link wheels, WHY ARE YOU MAKING OUT THAT I AGREE WITH YOUR DELUSIONS.
Your stock in trade is not to listen and just be downright rude to anyone that has an alternative opinion. I was prepared to listen in order to get some understanding of what you were trying to get across but I have to say your attitude just sucks. This is no way to conduct a debate but what would you expect from someone who’s headgear is befitting a clown. If the hat fits, wear it, as they say
Now go write your hub and slag us all off for doing what works and keeps the wolves from the doors. Google is right about everything, they completely dictate how I should market my sites, who should link to me and how they link to me... because they are whiter than white. Only a complete fuckwit is going to swallow that. Get a life man and a good helping of reality while you are at it.
Anyone can stoop to your level, perhaps this is your idea of good content.
Watch your mouth
I do not build link wheels , I do not actively promote link wheels. I am not so naive to pretend their is not an audience for the information. You have promoted that article in past weeks more than I ever have!
I do understand an audience and what is entered into a search engine - I have a page that explains what a link wheel is and how that concept can be used by real writers rather than the current users of the method which are spammy and black hat products and services.
Should a writer be interested in link wheels and they search for it, they may end up at my page. Less than 50 viewers a week see that page and they all are receiving what they searched for. I knew that when I wrote it - I used evil statistical analysis and discovered that the terms was not a winner and I wrote it anyway in response to a specific query.
The practice is not included in any of my hub author focused tutorials nor is it mentioned in any 60dc focused materials.
...wasting time responding to you leaves a dirty taste in my mouth - do not continue to misrepresent me
However, SF and Ryan, I suggest you guys cool off a bit. It will be a pity if you get banned because of the troll
What - you have deleted the hub I quoted from earlier?
Or did you just delete the sentence where you noted that you would explain in a private forum how to evade detection? That is the 60DC hub, not your old linkwheel hub.
So now you suddenky disavow this technique? How precious.
Why do you seek to tarnish the name of others? What benefit does it bring to you? What is your motive for confrontation? Why would you prefer to spend your time arguing rather than making friendships amongst other keen internet marketers? What is your objective? To make others think less of Sunforged on Hubpages? If so, why? And do you think that you could succeed? Because I do not.
You assume to much and you are incorrect in your phrasing. Since the information is not accessible to you and you will not be, you will have to continue to assume. But you are very far off.
I believe I just directly referenced the informational hub that is still very much published.
Webster's may help you with your vocabulary and comprehension skills, Im not sure what will help with the rest of the logical fallacies and failures to compute.
Pick a new battle as you have won this one..With my tail between my legs I will run off and cry now.
be happy! its the internet find something that you enjoy and have knowledge in and talk about that
I invite anyone to read your http://hubpages.com/hub/Easy-ways-to-pr … to-my-site hub abd decide for thenselves who is telling the truth here,
Again, you aren't drowning kittens. But I am highly amused that you realize you are beaten.
Just looks like an everyday SEO article to me?
as i said in the past - please anchor your backlinks, I appreciate your constant promotion but from one webmaster to another, do it right.
The article is 2000 words long - feel free to quote me - I wont fix any of your assumptions but at least make an attempt to attack me in a complete, concise and practical manner.
I've scanned it for at least five minutes and it's a solid article...can't find anything wrong with it and that it advocates the use of linkwheels! so wtf! I've got a 60 day challenge to complete! fook this for a lark Geoffrey!
Actually yeah, I've just read it and it's about how to make a link wheel. And I don't have reading comprehension problems, in case anyone was wondering.
Sounds like a jolly good idea actually - it's something I should definitely be doing with my own hubs, rather than the occasional random posting to bookmarking sites as I do at present.
I may be missing something here but I don't see that there's any ethical problem with link wheels as long as the articles that you're including in your wheel aren't spam.
Yeah that's exactly what I saw, but not in the context that Geoffrey said!....I really must do some drawing.....!
I am sorry you cannot see that a false vote is misrepresentation, but I am glad you can read - apparently his buddues cannot.
And now the big denial goes in and Peter jumps right in to defend his pal.
The article links to his supposedly long forgotten link wheel tutorial! The article says "I build wheels" - unless he has edited it.
I checked f3 "I build"
no results .. I assure you I would not bother with an edit for your account. It would give you legitimacy.
"I take advantage of all these sites and create wheels of interlinked related content. Its much better to write 30 properly interlinked articles across 3 unique domains than it would be to write 30 at one site - (like Hubpages)"
Care to explain that?
Oh, of course you will say thus isn't a link wheel. You will say there is no intent to deceive here.
That is not against the AdSense TOS though, so I don't really see the issue.
I backlink ALL of my hubpages from Snipsly, SheToldMe, and my personal blog. Xomba occassionally too, and soon RedGage.
I find it somewhat amusing that somebody masquarading as some sort of SEO expert, with 123 hubpages, is currently displaying this traffic accolade:
Which, although you have been here only two months, is pretty damn awful. The bulk of your hub titles are almost completely non-search engine friendly, many of your tags lead to NO other hubs, making them completely worthless.
I, on the other hand, who claims to be nothing other than an SEO amatuer with a hell of a lot of respect for people like Sunforged, Darkside, and Mark Knowles, manage this in 13 months:
It beggars belief that you are attempting to take on some of the sites most knowledgeable SEO enthusiasts and professionals. These are people that I would never dream of tackling in a debate about the technical aspects of the online world. The fact that somebody who does not even know how to effectively choose keywords, or understand how tagging works on Hubpages, thinks that they know more than Peter Hoggan or Sunforged... well... I don't know what to say really.... I am not sure whether to laugh or cry, I actually feel a bit sorry for you, not sure why... probably because of the cringe factor.
Just to add....
The sad thing is that by thinking you know it all, when you don't, you are alienating the very people who could do the most to help you.
As a starting point I suggest learning the very basics before pretending that you know the tricky stuff. Here is a hub about tagging:
Read that, implement what you learn on all of your hubs. Then watch the Ryan Hupfer video which I can only find at the moment on this hub from Marissa Wright:
And sort those damn Hubpages titles out. You need to learn to walk before you can run. I suppose you probably don't even know who Hup is, but nevermind.
I don't need any help from you or any of the manipulators you recommend. Thank you for your concern.
I have been making money from the Internet since 1991 and with Adsense since 2003 and am quite happy to do so without lying to Google. You THINK you know things; I DO know things. I know that I don't have to play games, but you don't, do you?
Attacking me doesn't change the truth.
Have you even ever encountered the people that I recommended? Do you even know who Ryan Hupfer is?
Well good luck with trying not to make money, you are doing a fine job.
ryan. . . maybe it is a good idea if we dont feed this guy anymore. . .he seems to not want to hear what anyone is saying. .and I know we all have better things than to entice him anymore ..
How does that saying go.. you can lead the horse to water. ........
Maybe soon he will go away.
You and others have answered the OP . .forums can be a good place to share different ideas and sometimes a good debate but when debating leads to attacking there is not much good that can come out of it.
Santa is coming soon.. . lets get busy!
But lets all let this one die.
So now you know how much money I make?
No, you do not.
Let's see. I have made about $20 from HP so far. I made twice that from e-book sales over the weekend, three times that from affiliate sales last week, twice that from advertising income yesterday, and one hundred times that from other internet related sales last month.
Which figure do you think I care about?
Oh, of course I also made money from consulting, some of which comes to me through the internet, but we won't count that.
Yeah, I need your video. Real bad.
That adds up to less than Mark Knowles makes from Hubpages alone.
Is that all that matters to you? You don't care about anything but who made the most money from whaf?
I am happy with my income. I don't want to play games. Tell me I can triple my income by doing things I detest - I am not going to do it.
Did you hear me complaining? No, I was just responding to your inaccurate portrayal.
Go away. I have no interest in your sdvice on anything.
I shouldn't have to go anywhere, this is a public forum. You didn't start the thread, I didn't start the thread. You are more than welcome to end your participation in this thread at any time, just as I am.
I have read your Hubpage, about the reasons why you write on Hubpages, you seemed to like the place then. Money does come into it, you cannot deny that, although I respect that it was not your primary reasoning. You state so many great things about the site yet are unwilling to watch a 2 minute video from the former Hubpages Director of Marketing. But hey ho, its all good.
I am simply uninterested, sorry. It will not change anything. I will not apply it. Too lazy.
Tell you what: I will watch it so that I can recommend it to others if it is that good.
Happy now? I won't use it, but maybe someone else will.
More personal attacks...
It does not change the facts, though.
Funny how angry you all get. I can guess why.
I am amused by the people who can read Googles page on linking schemes and not understand what it means. I am even more amused by people who insist that success cannot be had by honest means.
*I'm* not angry, just wondering what your answer is to the question I posed earlier:
"So by your logic, when I do a quickie backlink on Snipsly, Shetoldme etc. to one of my hubs, then I'm casting a "false vote"?"
What is your intention? Is it to help readers or fool Google?
Have you read http://www.google.com/support/webmaster … swer=66356 ?
Do you understand the sentence
"Before making any single decision, you should ask yourself the question: Is this going to be beneficial for my page's visitors?" ?
Answer that and you have answered your own question.
Blimey, you don't believe in straight answers do you?
If posting links on the likes of Snipsly and Shetoldme is "manipulation of pagerank", then why doesn't Google penalise these sites and everyone who posts on them?
So you don't do it for the benefit of your readers?
I don't know anything about those sites. I don't know ir caee what Google thinks of them. I refer you again to their page. If you know about those sites, you should be able to answer your own question.
::bashes head on desk::
There. That's better. I think.
Better yet, why don't you visit one of these sites and get back to us with an answer?
Or perhaps I could save you the trouble and just say that Google probably quite likes both these sites... enough at any rate to let them operate an Adsense revenue sharing thingy with their members, just like Hub Pages does. This leads me to think of two possibilities:
1. Google's interpretation of its own rules about "pagerank manipulation" is a lot less stringent than your interpretation of those rules, or
2. Google's right hand doesn't know what its left hand is doing.
I'm starting to get a Monty Pythonesque feeling about this whole thread, so maybe I'd better turn in and go to bed...
Bungle, George and Zippy....knows all too!.....and don't forget Rod, Jane and Freddy!
OK I have to ask, I recognise Bungle, George and Zippy but who the hell are Rod, Jane and Freddy?
They were famous in their own right, they used to appear on the kids show "Rainbow" alot, but they also had their own show and toured alot too....Geoffrey will tell you all about it!
I am a total blank there, I doubt if Geoffrey knows his ass from his elbow, so I will pass on questioning him.
Yeah, you're probably right....he was a serious actor until he got into Rainbow!
Here is something that might entertain you until the next bus comes along, the music is provided by my son's band. Warning contains bad words.
That's not a strong argument, for two reasons.
First reason you already know that google is there to make money from social media and second if google starts to penalize those sites then i can post my competitors links in those sites and penalize them as well, google is aware of such possibilities that's why they'll not ban.
Pcunix, my post is probably the most helpful post that somebody with your approach is ever going to get. I normally share that hubpage and that video with people that I like.
Some people just go about life completely the wrong way. If you woke up and smelt the coffee you would see that I had potentially just completely changed your entire Hubpages experience. There is nothing dishonest about effective choice of keywords and correct use of tagging. If you really do consider that to be unethical, then this stuff isn't for you.
Now, I suggest that you take my advice. The last person who I recommended that hubpage to put 60% on their traffic. Sometimes you just can't help people
There is nothing wrong with choosing keywords and titles, we agree. There is nothing wrong with NOT caring about any if that either.
I fall in the middle. I do not think about it much. And I am not about to start, so excuse me for not bothering to watch your video. I am sure it is vety useful to some people.
I suppose that statement more or less sums up the validity of any comment you will ever make on the subject of SEO. Add that to your recent responses to ryankett and you paint the picture of someone completely out of touch with the reality of SEO and someone that has no desire to do better on HubPages. It also polarizes why people should give little credence to what you say on either subject.
People like sunforged, rayankett, Mark Knowles, Misha, Hup, Oli, Sufi and many others are the people that should be listened to, I don’t agree with all of them all of the time but they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are successful at what they do. It is quite sad that you show such contempt for their knowledge and experience when there is so much to be learned from each of them if you would just care to listen.
I have no contempt for their knowledge. As you well know, I cheerfully recommend them to people all the time.
Why do you consistently and deliberately misrepresent me?
I have mild - very mild - contempt for their methods and attitudes. As I have said before, it isn't drowning kittens. It is a very slight bending of morality. I won't do it myself today but I have leaned to the dark side in the past, so I am not pure by any means. I quickly realized that fakery made me feel dirty, so I stopped before I got very far in. YMMV - your morals may vary.
I have complete contempt for people who argue with insult and fallen Cupid graphics, yeah. But I will continue to refer people who don't mind a little gaming to them.
Got it? Think you can remember that this time?
I have no intention of misrepresenting you, what I said was you should listen to what they say. How is that misrepresentation exactly?
Just some of your responses to common sense advice and views given to you in recent posts.
I do admire your tenacity at sticking to your guns even though your gunpowder is getting a little damp.
So you still deny the obvious.
Fine. I'm happy with my powder. I'm happy that you are a white hat SEO. I don't think SF drowned any kittens but I find his ease of slipping into insult mode not very endearing and I don't care for his attitude toward fooling Google.
I will add that video Ryan recommended to my own list of recommended stuff for people who think it is worth the effort. Nothing wrong with that.
Always nice to talk to you even though you continue to put words in my mouth :-)
Ah the bus has arrived.
Give me one instance where I have put words in your mouth. The instances I gave were you own words?
And what is it that I am denying?
It is so hard to communicate when everyone takes everything so literally.
No, Peter, you have not literally put words in my mouth. You have assumed that I hold opinions I do not.
What are talking about, what has that got to do with putting words in your mouth.
Cut the bullcrap and just stick to what I say in future please.
Lets clear this up, what assumptions are you assuming I have made about opinions you might or might not hold?
Actually from what you have said so far about abiding by Google’s rules, I doubt if you would consider me white hat.
And you still have not told me what it is I am denying.
Denying that sf games Google. That his 60dc hub references and suggests link wheels.
Little truths like that.
Oh I see, I think that comes from my comment that I don’t advocate or use linkwheels. The truth is I don't use linkwheels because they are hard work and take a lot of time to set up properly, not because I think they are gaming Google.
Is sunforged gaming Google, no more than anyone who diggs their own content, uses services like shetoldme or snipsly, syndicates articles or writes content based on solid keyword research. I don't think sunforged games Google anymore than me, you or most anyone reading this article. Whether you call that a denial or just plain old realism is up to you.
When I create content I own that content and I will decide how it is used based on how it will best benefit me or clients who pay for my services. I don’t need your tambourine thumping temperance showing me the way to commercial suicide.
Then I misunderstood.
Fine. You feel you have to do what you have to do. I understand that, I just don't choose to live my life that way. Again, no kittens drowned, but the incessant anger from all of you is really incredible. You just HATE being accused of things you actually do. Is it that hard to look in the mirror?
No, no, you'll deny that, of course. It is me being naive and unrealistic. OK, that's fine. Y'all are "realists" and I am not. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with bending the truth to get what you want. Fine. You are happy living with your little lies, I am not.
Wonderful stuff. You should consider joining a religion. You have the "holier-than-thou, condescending, I-am-all-right because I got lucky in the early days of the Internet, but you guys should lose money because I think what you are doing is lying and I don't like it and I am better than you," down pat. Congratulations on having enough money to be able to take the "moral" high ground.
Odd that your pages still sport the ad we are discussing. So - I guess you are not above making money out of selling link building services after all.
Oh yeah - deff religion. "Do as I say, not as I do."
By the way, I don't masquerade as an SEO expert. I think SEO and social networking are two of the worst things that ever happened to the Web.
So by your logic, when I do a quickie backlink on Snipsly, Shetoldme etc. to one of my hubs, then I'm casting a "false vote"?
You have no ability to prove your claims as correct, nor does Sunforged have the ability to prove his claims as correct, until the Internet Archive shows a copy of the article. This is likely to be in 2 months time, seeing as they do not index for 6 months after a given date and the article is 4 months old.
Before that time the onus really is on the accuser to back up their claims, otherwise they have no clear defence against accusations of libel.
I would suspect that you both have better things to do then pointlessly discuss a sentence in a hubpage for two months though. Although, I wouldn't put it past you Pcunix based on the stubborn old ego you are showing yourself to be. The reality is though that nobody but yourself would care if you are proven correct, we all have better slightly less pointless things to do with our time.
Unless everybody happens to fancy a witch hunt of course, I won't be participating in it though, and nor will many people if the victim is Sunforged.
The article is there. It links to his link wheel tutorial. His first few paragraphs admit that his techniques are not what Google intended.
He admits to manipulating Google. He has admitted it all through this thread and in others. He defends it as "necessary" because he doesn't like how Google ranks sites.
He has attacked me rather than admit that he deliberately deceives.
You can worship at the feet of these gray hat SEO people. I do not and I want to make sure people get to hear the other side of this.
other then rss submission- I dont use promote or suggest any automated backlinks
But you do recommend linkwheels.
Go ahead, explain how linkwheels meet Google's criteria of being "beneficial to readers"?
And while you are at it, why don't you remind them how careful you are not to leave footprints that might cause Google to notice the wheels?
Look, I agree you are not drowning kittens here. But you do bend Google's intent to suit your own needs. Compared to what some people do, it is very minor - but it is not something I do or admire.
All I expect from you is honesty - you try to game Google. No dead kittens, but not 100% honest - as yiu said in yiur own hub, it was not Googles intent that rank should be affected by fake linking.
I took a look at that advert the $9.99 is for 1000 Forum profiles or some dredge like that. If you want meaningful backlinks you have to pay something like $25 for less than ten.
I saw this advert, I imagine it is just a marketing scheme taking advantage of amateurs desire to make a quick buck, theres no point in having backlinks if people visit your content and get bored and leave straight away
I'd never pay for backlinks not even as low as $10....the idea makes me sick and I think...I'm going to puke!
I'd just throw in there that large numbers of comment/forum spam backlinks will get you in trouble with us, as it reflects badly on the site as a whole, not just the individual user, to have those links coming in here.
Which of course can mean that people who do these things can affect ALL of us,
The reason for this thread is that there's an Adsense ad - offering loads of backlinks for $9.99 - that's featuring heavily on Hub Pages at the moment! Does your comment above mean you'll be blocking that particular domain from advertising on Hub Pages?
I can see nothing wrong in principle with paying backlinks, in the same way that I can see nothing wrong with selling backlinks.
BUT the likelyhood of these mass-marketed generic packages having any intrinsic value to your content is pretty low if you ask me.
What precisely are they promising? If you want to pay for backlinks then try having a long hunt on eBay, where often you will know precisely what it is that you are buying, for example *hypothetically) "a dofollow backlink on each of my page rank 4 or 5 blogs about teeth whitening, on existing pages which each already have individual page rank of at least 2".
I'm not sure what kind of value 100 backlinks to a hubpage about gold prices would have if the result is simply an auto-generated post on 100 purpose built 'link dumps' which has no consistant topic and no valuable traffic.
I would want to know precisely where my links were going. And the likelyhood is that no serious developer is going to sell you a link of any value to a page which intends to compete with his area of business. The owner of a blog called bestcheapteethwhitening.com on the front page of Google is not going to want to provide you with a backlink to an article titled Best Cheap Teeth Whitening unless you pay them much more than the link is worth to you.
Just my two cents.
"a dofollow backlink on each of my page rank 4 or 5 blogs about teeth whitening, on existing pages which each already have individual page rank of at least 2".
... dont start me off on the teeth whitening thing!
You see nothing wrong with an activity that Google plainly states is unacceptable.
I assume you have an Adsense account?
Why don't you write to Google and tell them that you buy abd sell links for the purpose of passing pagerank? I am sure they would love to know that.
I see nothing wrong with discretely buying specific links no, dependant on the greater specifics.
If you are perhaps suggesting that I condone arbitrage, which is what Google actually state is acceptable, then the answer is no.
Remember that not everybody monetises their pages with AdSense, and if they do not then their linking activities is of no concern to Google.
It is perfectly acceptable for you to purchase links and traffic to landing pages or similar, and if it were not then AdSense would not exist.
Please do not confuse Arbitrage, which is paying to attract traffic to a page in order to flip that traffic for a greater return, with traditional promotion.
I do not pay for any links or traffic to any of my hubpages, neither would it be in my interests. That would be arbitrage and against the terms of service of Google AdSense. It would also most likely result in a loss.
The idea that Google gets to dictate any of my non-Adsense related activities is ludicrious, just like your stupid wig. I do not sign up to the Google search engine, its signs me up without asking. There is no contract which dictates that I cannot breach the rules of their secret PageRank alithogram. Muppet.
I will happily write to Google and let them know that I purchase links to my non-Adsense monetised blog pages and various affiliate accounts. FROM ADWORDS.
Adwords is analagous to a "paid spokesman" disclosure - the viewer is aware that this is purchased advertising.
Linkwheels and purchased links are false testimony. That is entirely different.
The FCC now has rules on disclosing your relationships to affiliates you link to. How amusing it would be if they applied those rules to all links. All the liars would be out of business over night.
You change the subject rather swiftly when I point out that you are talking through your bottom. Just to reiterate, to cut a long story short, you said:
"Why don't you write to Google and tell them that you buy abd sell links for the purpose of passing pagerank? I am sure they would love to know that."
And I said:
"The idea that Google gets to dictate any of my non-Adsense related activities is ludicrious, just like your stupid wig. I do not sign up to the Google search engine, its signs me up without asking. There is no contract which dictates that I cannot breach the rules of their secret PageRank alithogram. Muppet."
The idea that Google could directly penalise me for anything which does not relate in any way to them is just plain pathetic. How about this for a scenario:
a) I write a blog about soccer on wordpress, hosted by BlueHost. I sell Amazon products from that blog, the only monetisation.
b)I don't submit to search engines, I leave it up to them as to whether or not they want to index me.
C) I purchase 10 links to that blog from other soccer websites.
You tell me how that is of any concern to Google or any other party other than BlueHost, Amazon, and me? If Google chooses to index it they will index it. They do not own the internet, or BlueHost, or Amazon. It would be of no concern or relevance to them. Their alithograms are their concern, secret to me, I could quite easily not know anything whatsoever about their existance.
Now stop talking out of your arrogant smug sh*thole and give people some respect, you may even begin to give it back. Making libelous comments about people isn't the way to make friends, Sunforged has not broken any TOS and is held in much higher esteem on here then you ever will with your confrontational attitude. Its not anybody elses fault that you are clearly bitter and unhappy about your own personal life.
I know one thing.. bad internet behaviour effects online reputation. Where that dividing line is, however, is blurred. I think Google has evolved, and is, evolving into a more natural way. I can see a more level field shaping, but I am intrigued to see how this effects others bad behaviour.
I suggest adding to your visibility by writing content at various locations.
I also suggest linking related content that you have written at these sites.
You are proud of your writing! so of course, you share it via easy to find navigation(links)
A link wheel has a specific format - its methodical - it can be quite boring and it can be unnatural, I dont not "promote it" because I am a mighty protector of Google virtue but rather because its a more advanced technique then my audience or even myself looks for and uses.
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&a … link+wheel
Those are true link wheel tutorials.
One would have to wonder why you didn't say this at the beginning. No, instead we had endless insults, fallen Cupids, misrepresentations.. Which tells me and everyone else the truth about you.
"You need to know how to reach your readers. If you know that, you don't need to know anything else."
Those above are your words. And so as I read through this thread I am wondering, do you know how to reach your reader?
Or do you reach your readers by coming into forums, ruffle some feathers and go and attack people that you wish you could be more like.
I have yet to read any thread where you are not attacking someone.
Maybe instead of all this nonsense you should try to spread some positive energy. Maybe you could learn a thing or two. .
Hey and maybe someday you too could have one iota of the positive passion that SF is all about.
Im with you on this one Ryan
From Sunforge's hub:
"I take advantage of all these sites and create wheels of interlinked related content. Its much better to write 30 properly interlinked articles across 3 unique domains than it would be to write 30 at one site - (like Hubpages)"
I cannot see what should be wrong about this method.
You do affiliate marketing (directly or indirectly doesn't matter) and you think
I'll go with Shari's suggestion.
Personally I admit to link building in many shapes and forms, does this change search results in my or my clients favour? Absolutely. Does it give them a competitive advantage? You bet it does. I suppose that’s why people approach SEO's in the first place. Is what I do spam or dishonest? Google doesn’t seem to thinks so.
I look at things in the cold light of day and do what has to be done. I am a realist and work with the medium as is, not what it could be. That’s where we are different; I am results and performance driven while you are held back by a debilitating belief system.
Like I have said to you before I don’t think that makes me a spammer or dishonest, it's just good old marketing.
I don't enjoy backlinking or keyword research either come to that, but I do it because I've realised that if I want people on the Internet to even read my stuff (let alone click on ads), then I've got no choice.
It's OK for you - as Mark said, you've had a presence on the Internet since its early days. But people like me have to work with what the situation is now, not what we'd like it to be. That doesn't make me an angry person BTW, just a realistic one.
I would absolutely LOVE it if good content rose like cream to the top of the search engine listings and spam/duplicate stuff automatically sunk right to the bottom. But I know that eventuality is a long way off (if it ever arrives - the "black hat" people are bound to find yet more ways of gaming the system).
Cream does rise. All by itself. Believe it or not.
Sometimes it does, yes. And sometimes it doesn't. (I find it weird that you just don't understand this.)
Example: I have a hub that I'm quite proud of. I wrote it soon after I joined HP, before I knew anything about keyword research and the like.
But despite being (IMO) one of my top 5 hubs in terms of how well it's written, and despite its having had 480 views from within Hub Pages itself, it's not had ONE search engine hit. And I know that if I did some keyword research and backlinking on this particular hub, it would start to get organic traffic.
I realise that what constitutes "good" content is subjective to a certain extent (you might look at my hubs and think "she's a crap writer!"). But when you say things like "good content always rises to the top" (with an implied "so there!" afterwards), then you just come across as either naive or smug.
I understand it far better than most of the people here. I have things that have risen to the top of Google SERP and stayed there for years. None of them were "promoted" except through real organic linking by other people. SF complains that I get those because of age, but if that were true, most of my content would benefit. It doesn't - only the real cream rises.
I did NOT say "good content" rises. I have written tons of "good content" that has never done much. I call that stuff "milk", and in my case, since almost all of it was written with more in mind than Adsense, anything it did bring in was just gravy.
I said CREAM rises. None of us writes real cream very often, and when we do, we often don't realize it until much later. There is nothing naive or smug about that, it is simply fact.
I don't really care what the opinion of the so-called SEO "experts" are. If you want to follow their advice, do so. If you stay away from the really ugly stuff - and I haven't seen any of that suggested by them - , you won't get hurt (though remember what HP staff had to say about that earlier in the thread - your actions CAN cause negative results for HP).
It's quite possible that some of what they do can help cream rise more quickly. great - do whatever you want to do. It's also possible, even likely, that some of it can increase your Adsense earnings - wonderful, go for it - I wish you nothing but luck.
But I don't do much in that line. There are various reasons and I don't want to waste space on them here.
The $9.99 junk that began this? Don't do that. In spite of what certain people here say, buying links is a very bad idea. But if you want to put out fake links, go right ahead. As I keep saying, you aren't drowning kittens and you don't need to subscribe to my morals.
I can assure you I've no intention of ever buying links.
I would love to subscribe to your morals, Pcunix... but the truth is that they're an expensive luxury for mere mortals like me.
I understand that. Especially in these times. Heck, my business is off 40% - I feel the temptations myself, but they aren't strong enough to change my mind.
Nor am I foolish enough to say I would never, ever do anything like this. I would like to think I'd stop short of drowning kittens, but when your back is against the wall, who knows?
If I wanted my hubs to be found in the search engines, I would contact someone like Mark Knowles, Sunforged, or Peter Hoggan. I would count on them to know the rules and to optimize my web presence within the confines of those rules, not to do anything to jeopardize my account.
If I wanted to be a Puritan, I would continue doing what I am doing now - which is nothing at all.
Well I must say I have enjoyed reading this thread from start to finish, it has enlightened me no end. Thanks to ALL the contributors.
By the way,That $9.99 backlink package that you are asking about, in my opinion is a total waste of money, don't bother with it or any other cheap linking offer, they are mostly useless forum profile backlinks.
I don't really think this thread is going anywhere, it's two opposing viewpoints which really don't mesh. No amount of back and forth arguing is going to do anything here, as it is one persons ethical problem with SEO vs people who use SEO on a day to day basis.
I agree, to each according to his own and options are there -- so it is up to us to act on it, whether we would like to buy or not!
No, you should not be buying links. HP staff already pointed out how that can hurt HP. What we are talking about here are entirely different issues.
In this thread?
Could you link to the comment please.
Page 3. Maddie Ruud.
I have to say it surprises me a bit that a so called SEO expert would think otherwise. I expect that from Misha - he challenged the idea that buyung links would have any bad effect, though that was before Maddie commented. I would have thought you would know better.
Abd what is it Maggie Ruud says about buying links?
"I'd just throw in there that large numbers of comment/forum spam backlinks will get you in trouble with us, as it reflects badly on the site as a whole, not just the individual user, to have those links coming in here.
And point me to anything relevant to buying links in that statement please.
You trying to be a lawyer?
Whether you bought them or created them, the result is the same.
Why don't you ask her to clarify if you cannot understand that?
Lawyer me, noooooo. Just pointing out the little untruths in your statements. Perhaps your assumption is correct, but until its clarified it is an assumption and shouldn’t be offered as fact.
No untruth at all. Your desperation is showing.
Your total lack of logic beggars belief. There is no desperation here, I am having a whale of a time. Thanks for the entertainment, this stuff is better than anything on the 100 or so channels of shit they call TV. Thank you for all the Pythonesque moments and the hilarious foxes paws.
In fact, I am going to follow you just to keep abreast of each and every surreal episode. (OK, i admit it, that last bit was a lie)
So, then Peter, can we assume that you believe that buying backlinks is entirely acceptable? HP doesn't mind, Google doesn't mind, it doesn't mean a thing?
Is this the advice from you give your clients?
(Wife still not ready to go)
I never said anything like that. Total crap from you again. How would I know HP's stand on this. Unlike you I am not a clairvoyant.
Take Note Pcunix - Make that your only disparaging remark about the services I provide to my clients.
You don't know the difference between a question abn a remark?
It is really funny how you and Misha and Sunforged can attack me personally, ridicule me, call me a liar and a troll and in your minds that is all acceptable?
Yet I ask a quite reasonable question in light of your apparent insistence that I am wrong to advise someone not to buy links, and you get angry.
Why do you folks think you are so special? Why are you so fearful of hearing anything that is contrary to your view of proper behavior on the Internet?
Sunforged: next time you ridicule me with one of your graphics, I will report you. I will do the same to Misha the next time he makes an ad hominem remark. I have had it up to my ears with all of you.
So it's OK for me to post graphics and ad hominem remarks. I am gutted i have been excluded from your personal hit list. No fair, i am off to sulk.
In spite of our obvious disagreements, unless I missed something you would like to point out to me, you have always addressed arguments.
Sunforged and Misha have done those things in more than this thread. I am sick of it.
Then why don't you stop? I've kept quiet because those big boys can pretty much take care of themselves. But you've been here making condescending, belittling remarks about their contributions. Now you're hurt because they're pushing back?
Geez! Where's my barfbag?
Sure, that is the best thing to do with bullies: let them push you out.
Them?! Bullies? You're the one who was looking for the gunfight and brought a water pistol.
He usually is looking for a fight then runs from them.
That's because you keep making fun of his hair!
When he takes it off he turns into Doug Hughes.
Maddie Ruud on page 3!!!!?? What where??!!!
In the UK that's the topless page of the newspaper!
Guys, you all are savvy internet users. Why do you feed the troll and liar?
Pclown is a troll and liar. The best way of dealing with that kind of people is to ignore them.
Just to clarify why he is a liar in this particular case - Maddie did not say anything about buying links
As to why he is a troll - just read the thread
That is a personal ad hominem attack, is it not?
It violates forum policy, does it not?
Do you remember when you tried and failed to have me banned?
I am gladly awaiting my well deserved ban, Pclown
Calling a liar a liar is quite satisfying. Ciao.
The thing is when you tell lies you are a liar, Maggie said jack about buying links therefore you are a liar.
Maggie said nothing about buying links, its possible HP dont like the practice, but there was nothing about buying links in the comment linked. Complete fiction from you again.
Ayup. More of the usual from Sunforged. Where's the fallen Cupid?
By the way - I'm heading out to the gym for 90 minutes or so. Just wanted to let y'all know that you can continue your personal attacks and ridicule while I'm gone.
Just as we suspected Captain.
A live one!
We got another hit!
How should we categorize this one upon successful capture, Captain?
Check the guidebook
View at EasyCaptures.com
See any similarities, coxswain?
[music]inserts triumph theme and departs[/music]
I thought linkbait for a short time too. Being contentious is a good angle for linkbait, however, this has been a lengthy outpouring of condescending, belittling and downright nasty comments from one party who is now complaining because the same is being returned.
I don't think the goal of linkbaiting is to “out” yourself as a misguided fool offering advice that could potentially damage the online goals and aspirations of others. If it was linkbait it might go something like this :
"Links Don’t Work! Links Are Spam! Use Doctor Geoffrey’s Traffic Elixir And Get Top Rankings Without Links".
If there has been an attempt at linkbait in this thread it has failed hopelessly. An imagined, ill conceived problem was highlighted but no solution was offered. It would have been fantastic linkbait had a credible alternative been
In fact, Peter, I made no nasty comments. I did complain several times about you doing exactly what you did here - implying opinions that I do not hold.
You call me a fool. Did I call anyone a fool? No - the insults all came from you, SF and Misha.
You consistently have misrepresented what I actually said and you rely on the inability of those with less experience to have even half a clue what this argument is actually about. You consistently distort my positions and refuse to answer direct questions.
This thread did go downhill, but the nastiness all came from the other side, not from me.
Now why don't we just give it a rest? Most of the people reading have not a clue what we are arguing about and apparently it is upsetting some readers. As I have said over and over, I continue to refer those who wish to play the game to your, Sunforged and Misha's excellent hubs, so please stop lying about what I tell people.
links to article directories are not worth so much. It is how the article written.
This thread is entertaining at best. Appreciate that!!
I think the bottom line is buying links is not worth your time. My humble opinion is there is always a HAPPY medium! Marketing has been around long before the internet and if done in the "non-sleezy-unsneaky" way is perfectly fine. Sorry, PCU - the world on line has changed and it IS a dog-eat-dog world!
There is a balance though! Stay within your boundaries! What is your conscious tell you? If there is any doubt, then there IS NO DOUBT - don't do it!
Integrity. Integrity. Integrity. I'm a big fan.
As few here have mentioned, good content on the internet does not matter much if no one ever sees it! Yes, write good content!! But, promote it only as you see fit - don't over do it. Always think of your readers and the value it adds. Then, naturally, over time, organic traffic will come. But, it does take time... and you know what they say about "if it sounds to good to be true..."
Have lots of patience! There may be a lack of conscious in this world today, very true! But, ultimately, I think it is a lack of patience that gets people seeking for that quick fix and the instant-gratification-make-money NOW mentality.
Cream does rise to the top, (don't lose sight of quality) but you may have to boost it a little bit with good, effective marketing techniques (yes SEO, too) - BUT NOT SPAM!! Or cheap back links that will probably hurt you more in the long run! So, no, I would not suggest it.
Phew - there is my two cents!!
by easyspeak 12 years ago
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by Jason Menayan 10 years ago
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