I have a couple of smaller accounts. As Amazon currently operates, my earnings go into one pot. From what I can understand, that won't happen once HP take over my Amazon. Or am I wrong?
If I'm not, why not? I am going to lose out as it is, and I can't see the separation of my HP accounts being anything but a big negative.
This is what will definitely make me pull my hubs off the site, if each account will earn separately.
But the effect on our entire amazon site portfolio is relevant, germaine and was discussed also.
I still have a few hubs myself that generate lots of small sales designed solely to jump me up some tiers easily. Making the less common but high cost items that I may or may not market elsewhere more profitable for me.
I designed the hubs and spent that opportunity here because of the existing relationship that I had with the site, it really should be actionable when sites like hp change the rules on a whim.
Nonetheless, you see my confusion and perhaps with that observation your discourse with others on the thread may have been different. I was very confused with some of your responses and now understand why.
Aah, the joys of online communication, eh
I would have to agree.
I have (at least) two main accounts that pull in sales from Amazon.
Since they're all linked to the same Paypal email address, wouldn't it be easier (and cheaper for HP fees wise) to just collate the earnings from Amazon/HP Ad program for all accounts into one Paypal payment?
I assume you mean you have multiple HP accounts earning Amazon.
What difference will it make if they are separate, except that each will have to make the $50 payout on it's own? They will all earn top tier regardless of sales.
What difference will it make? A fairly obvious one. Each will have to reach payout on its own merit, whereas now all my Amazon pages around the 'net are grouped together under my Amazon ID. I don't care about the top tier increase. I care that my Amazon hubs on HP will be separated.
This is not a beneficial move.
Say collectively a hubber has five accounts, all earn varying amounts. Between them they exceed the payout level every month, but once separated it's every couple of months, or worse, every 3 or 4.
That means they're going from collecting a regular income stream to collecting a sporadic one. Times are hard enough, without being forced to wait even longer for earned income.
Basically, if what I'm wondering about is correct, HP get to hold onto monies I've earned until each account reaches payout, because Amazon will still pay them every month, regardless of whether Joe Hubber gets paid. No benefit in that for me, is there?
I really don't think it's that bad. Given 5 hubs that make $100 each month, worse case scenario is that each one makes $20 and none make payout under the new plan.
At $100 that probably means 6% tier. They will now earn 8.5%, or about $28 instead of $20. You will miss out on getting $100 this month, but next month will get $140. It won't, of course, be that even. Give it a few months and I would expect to see an absolute minimum of $50 as at least one makes payout - you will be down only $50 for the month.
Even if that didn't happen, though, I would trade $100 this month for $140 the next month - that's a pretty good ROI!
it makes a big difference for those of us that take 'forever' to accumulate anything with amazon etc
Forget I asked - I found my answer in the Amazon FAQ's:
I have multiple HubPages accounts, do I need to sign-up separately in each account?
Yes. Each account is treated independently for the purposes of your participation in the Amazon Program under HubPages.
Plus I just realized that USA residents are paid out by Amazon once they reach $10 - and HP has raised the bar to $50, so that makes it worse. The proposed 8.5% tier isn't going to be much use to someone if their earnings are held back 3 or 4 months. More so if folks make payout from collective earnings now.
Wow - this really really sucks.
I don't think you will find very many earning over $10 on amazon and less than $40 on HPads. Unless, of course they've got HPads turned off.
Indeed. My HP ads are beyond my expectations. Adsense is add-cents, and amazon is plesantly surprising me a bit after being shut off during the California thing.
Exactly what I'm seeing. Add-cents is lucky to see a dollar a day, but HPads way more than makes up for it, and I'm really pleased with what Amazon is doing for this year.
Up until a couple of months ago Amazon often made the $10 payout but not always. Then it began to climb in Sept. and a few days ago I found one day of sales of 20 items including 2 drill kits selling for hundreds each. That one day made my payout 3 times over!
So - you are not actually making any money then? $30 and you are excited about it?
I think you aught to qualify all the advice you keep handing out to the newbies with that information, because your advice is atrocious. Now I know why - you don't make any money.
This is a bad move for many people. How would you feel if you had $75 in your Amazon account that took 8 months to collect and knew you would not hit payout before the switch?
How would you feel if you needed the money and will now have to wait 4 months to get it?
Did you read, Mark? There are very few people on HP that would not enjoy seeing $30 in one day from amazon.
You may well be one of them - I know Nell Hoxie was. $900 per month from Amazon would have been peanuts to her and you, too, may concentrate on Amazon to the exclusion of Adsense.
I don't. Amazon is strictly a secondary source of income to me, and from what I see on HP that is the norm.
I would not be happy. But then I have set my Amazon to a $10 payout - if I miss out on $10 I won't cry.
Yes - we get it. You don't make much money and you have no idea what is the "norm." I already knew that.
You don't care what other people may be suffering because you are OK with your day job and $10 is nothing to you - gotcha.
Doesn't change the fact that people are losing out here and are understandably upset. Your condescending, ill informed remarks just muddy the waters.
Good. You will then understand the the norm on HP is not a long time hubber, producing hundreds of sales hubs and using those sales to prop up other sites with a higher amazon tier.
As far as I can see those are going to be the only losers in the new amazon layout. The requirement for paypal will hurt a very few and HP has already stated they will try to work with those that earn more than the maximum paypal payout or can't use it at all.
Do you expect your experience to be different? Why? What makes your HP site so different?
But why should there be any losers? Why can't this new scheme be voluntary so that the big earners don't lose out and ordinary hubbers like me are not forced in to something that makes them feel uncomfortable?
Like it or not, HP has been built on the money brought in by the big earners like frog and Mark. In my book that makes it good business to look after their interests?
It always used to be that there was room on this site for all different types of hubs and hubbers, which was great, and so I don't get this new 'sales hubs are bad hubs' atmosphere that is creeping in.
As far as I know no hubber has been involved with negotiations with Amazon in this matter - not even Mark. Is it possible that Amazon is the one requiring total participation? I can't see why HP would care, but then I don't really see what they stand to gain anyway, except for better earnings for hubbers, possibly attracting new writers.
Sales hubs - I continue to see concern that "excessive" (whatever that is) sales links are something google doesn't like. I DO know that a second account of mine, consisting of all sales hubs, went to 0 traffic and stayed there for over a month. I have deleted nearly all the hubs and wrote two new ones (non sales) of considerable length - the first one was indexed but has now disappeared from google. Even a search for the URL comes up negative - it is no longer indexed. I rather expect the second one to do the same shortly. That account has been slapped hard by big G and one possible reason is too many short hubs with lots of sales links.
I don't think that it's hubbers down on sales hubs - most of us write some of them. It's Google. Or at least the concern that Google doesn't like them, which amounts to nearly the same thing as far as atmosphere on HP goes.
I had a good read of the 'secret' google raters advice document, and it is true that Google does not like spam pages.
Spam pages are made up of links to the likes of Amazon, with little or no original content.
They listed a few urls to be marked as spam, and they were exactly like the scenario I have just outlined.
Later in the document they linked another URL, where someone from all appearances (I didn't check it) wrote a couple of lines of fresh content for each item.
They said this was spam too, which I was surprised at. Then again, unlike our hubs there was no long paragraph introducing anything, so it was inferior to Hubs.
By the end of the document, you had some idea of what Google considered spam, and what was not.
Hubpages comes somewhere in the middle. I have no doubt a few of my pages could be viewed as spam (in that they add nothing new, not that they don't have original content), but very few of them fall into this bracket.
Most of my sales pages give detailed information about the product or its background, and that is, IMO, the way it should be.
However, taking that Google have their plans of how they would like the internet to be, how come most of the front pages are still taken up with keyword in url pages, even if they are nothing but spam, with NO product information at all?
Or just well-known brands with products and no info.
It doesn't make sense. Google cannot have a downer on Amazon hubs. It's something else that has caused plunges.
Sorry this is a bit OT.
Izzy, I both agree and disagree.
No, amazon hubs are not the reason for plunges, but a strong overabundance of them in a subdomain could well be a contributory cause. I don't think there is a single cause for this weird behavior - if that were so the thousands of man hours that have been spent trying to figure it out would have yielded something by now.
I also think that google doesn't mind a few sales hubs, to a point - that's why I've kept my own sales hubs and even written a few more.
An entire subdomain of nothing but sales hubs, however, could be another matter. Even when written as you say you like (and I do too - I try to do the same kind of thing) google may well penalize a site for too many. Not enough to plunge, but a small penalty.
@Izzy, the document you read is a quality guidelines document for human reviewers.
When it comes to affiliate advertising it actually says it is not spam, as long as the page provides value. Pages that use product feeds with affilaite links, just duplicate content, and provide no additional value are considered spam.
For instance because of the hubpages ad to text ratio my pages would now be considered more spammy than before, why?
Before I used ot have amazon and ebay capsule providing price comparissons side by side - Google loves this because it provides value to the reader, price comparissons are a great thing to have. A human review seeing this would put a big green check next to my page.
After the ad to text ratio limits I had to remove a lot of my comparison page layouts. I now no longer have this benefit, even though I have less advertising, my page is more spammy.
The paypal switch will hurt every single user who is not American because of their extremely poor exchange rate. I now lose around 10% of every penny I earn because of this - as will ALL foreign users. You have no idea what is the norm.
Yay! Rah Rah!
I bow to your superior knowledge, Mark. I have always assumed that the large majority of hubbers were from North American, making that the norm by definition.
Your information is obviously better than mine - if the country for most hubbers is not in North America, then the norm will be that most hubbers lose 10% of their income due to unrealistic exchange rates by paypal. My own experience of having a $10 amazon payout and losing nothing by going through paypal is plainly very unusual for HP writers; far more common will be huge losses because nearly everyone else lives "across the pond".
Yes - my information is better than yours. Your English comprehension skills seem on a par with your knowledge of making money here.
Plenty of North American hubbers will be losing out for reasons unrelated to paypal's exchange rate. Sorry you do not understand.
Perhaps we could get this back on track instead of you attempting to divert the thread to your inability to understand or empathize? We get that you don't know anything and don't understand why people who are adversely affected are against this change because you are not really affected because you don't earn any money here - got it. No need to repeat that.
This is actually against HP's TOS -
Stick to the Topic: Please stay on the thread’s topic when replying to an existing thread. If you don’t see an open thread about something you’d like to discuss, please open a new thread.
The issue is the ability to opt out of this if we choose - in this case because multiple small accounts will stop paying out - perhaps for an extended period of time. And perhaps - when hubpages bring in another new rule in 6 months time - as Google does with adsense accounts - if an account does not pay out for a period of time - the money will default to hubpages?
Yes, Mark, I understand the topic. My point, had you made the effort to try and comprehend it instead of spewing anger and insults, was that multiple small accounts won't be hurt nearly as bad as you project.
Several small accounts, say half a dozen with a dozen articles each, should make payout very nearly each month. If you can't write sales hubs that earn $1 per month per article, perhaps you should turn your endeavors to a different path; it really isn't that hard to do.
Or, if they are just starting up and need a little time, you aren't losing much as they aren't making sales anyway. Work on them for a couple of months and perhaps you can bring them along. Or, as I say, if you can't make them produce then move on to something else.
I dont see how that math will add up to payout. Are you using the old minimum Amazon earning level or HP's payout level?
A dozen articles at only $1 a piece per month? .. thats $12 isnt it?
Six sites at 12 articles and $1 per article is $72. I'm not sure what foreign payout levels are, but that should be getting close.
did you say six sites? we were talking about hubpages right? so 6 accounts ...
.thats the complaint!!!!!!!!
was that a mistype? or has the bone of contention (and the title of this thread) been
completely missed by you while defending this change?
those six accounts can no longer be combined.
Maybe I did, Sunforged - I took the title to mean that accounts on other sites could no longer be combined with HP with regards to Amazon earnings. This could leave the other sites with a lower payment tier.
To be honest, it never occurred to me that the gripe was that 6 small accounts on HP could not be combined for quicker payout. The complaint seems to be primarily that hubbers will lose money on this plan; 6 small HP accounts can only go up, not down.
If I did misunderstand, I'm not the only one, either; Thisisoli posted above saying that his other "accounts" will drop 2%. That can only happen with outside accounts that depend on HP amazon traffic to increase the tier.
I am actually. While I'm not earning a fortune on Amazon, my Amazon Associates are consistently much higher than my Hubpage Ad or Adsense earnings by a fairly large amount. If I have a down month on Associates, I don't want to have to wait several months to get my money.
I would ignore everything wilderness says - he/she has no idea. My Amazon earnings have always far outweighed my adsense - and now HP Ads earnings as well.
There are plenty of people who this will hurt financially. Me included.
I think Wilderness meant BOTH together - there would be few who would be earning more than $10 on Amazon AND less than $ 40 on HP ads - assuming they are running both together.
Yes, that is correct. I believe it would be difficult to do both at the same time.
Yes, one could have a whole subdomain full of nothing but sales hubs and that would be the result. Nell Hoxie used to do that - she never learned how to earn from adsense, but made a good living off of sales hubs. Perhaps that's what Mark does as well.
I am currently testing HPAds out, It seems a very close call to whether or not I would be earning more with Adsense alone or not.
Okay, why does it sound like Hubpages is about to explode into wide open socialism?
Or is that implode by stupidity.
Currently I get an Amazon payout every month. The money I earn from my three Hubpages accounts plus the Amazon money I earn in other places comes directly to me every month. I don't see that happening under the new plan. I see the money I earn in each account sitting separately until each account reaches the $50 payment level. It looks to me like a disadvantage to the individual hubber and a lot of money sitting around in the hubpages coffers.
Please hubpages, at least let us merge the hubpages accounts together to reach a $50 payment as a total.
Or lower the payment threshold to $10.
Adsense has stalled on HP because HPads sit in pole position - not because Adsense sucks. One site I have blows Hpads out the water in terms of revenue, and that's not plastered with Hpads. Don't be so quick to assume Hpads are better than Adsense. I earned a good buck from that affiliation, before Hpads cannibalized it. I also don't come close to earning the same with Hpads that I did before it was Adsense alone.
OK.. nice to know there are options, but my experiece has been opposite.
Exactly - I ran a test late last month - with HPAds on - and then compared my total earnings between HPAds + Adsense compared to Adsense alone.
It was pretty much identical - except that with Adsense - I actually know which hubs make money.
I totally agree with the frog - I have several accounts that used together (plus my own sites) hit $100 amazon regularly - now - its not going to happen more than one every 3 or 4 months. So I will be removing those hubs and putting them own my own sites.
Thanks - Hubpages - for making the decision easy to make
Look - before February, I was paying my rent and household bills with earnings from Hubpages. Every month income increased. I can only wonder as to what level I would have been at by this stage.
It died, February. Done, gone, vanished. If an individual want's to class $100 a month or whatever as earning that's up to them. I call that pin money, like going out and getting a job that pays me a buck an hour.
There is money to be made online. There are opportunities to earn a real income. That was always my goal when I started, to earn real money, the type of amount that pays my bills, rent, etc etc.
If you don't want to earn money online, say you have a bricks and mortar job, or you're otherwise wealthy and it doesn't really matter then fine, ok, be happy with what you're getting.
But please don't compare that with what I do, or other site users that work hard online because that's their job, it's their source of income. Saying that you earn money online, then coming out with 'I earned 20 bucks on Amazon last month' isn't what I'm talking about here.
I discovered the power of Amazon last year. Within 6 months of understanding how and why it worked, and using the boost that HP had back then, I was very quickly making hundreds of dollars every month.
And then I wasn't. And this wasn't because I'd done anything wrong. This was because HP was a mess and the powers that be knew it. Result? We got hammered site wide.
Now all the changes, the hoop jumping? It ain't working for me. And coming along and saying 'well I'm earning 100 bucks a month' like it's a golden handshake? Me and you = chalk and cheese.
I know some on here are still doing ok, I know they are because I actually know them. And trust me, they're still making way way more than you are. And they're not happy. Because they're greedy? No. Because they used to be earning thousands, and now they're earning hundreds.
These are the guys that work online, the virtual world is where they make their hard earned. All, so far as I'm aware, liked Hubpages as it was, and did and still do have an emotional attachment to the site. It's these guys, and plenty more that were around my level or below, that are hurting. And for the main, there isn't anything to make noise about (anymore) income wise.
Which brings me back to these changes you guys are so content with. Good for you, I'm happy for you. Allow me the opposite. I'm not happy. This is not beneficial. This is not helping me regain the losses. It's slicing and dicing further still the HP income.
Like Lis, I'm going to be removing hubs. I didn't (and still don't) want to. Neither do I expect the site owners to bend around me. This is their site, they can do what they please with it. HP is a business. They have investors. Those with an invested interest need to see a return.
Bottom line is this: thanks HP for giving me a place to cut my teeth. I've had a lot of fun, I've met some truly awesome people. As it was HP was a fantastic place to be, to use, to earn (and learn) from.
But I'm a 'business' too. And like HP, I'm not altruistic, and need to cut my losses. I need a return on my investment, I've got people to answer to and bills to be paid.
As and when my workload allows, I will start shifting my content. The End.
NB - Maddie Ruud has got to be one of the nicest people I came across on this site. Long may she reign.
But I still fail to see how losing the big earners entirely or the big earners not really doing very much on HP any more because their earnings have dropped so much is a good business move for HP?
I was never in the big league, but was beginning to look at a couple of hundred a month, which as I'm self-employed was very helpful to pay a few bills and was working to build it up over time. This was upsetting enough to suddenly lose, so I can't begin to imagine what losing a full income and suddenly having to find another way to pay the rent and feed the family felt like.
I don't want to be pushed into this Amazon thing - I want to keep my earnings as separate and diverse as possible (such as they are at the moment LOL!).
I got a $500 dollar from Amazon last week and it looks like it will be the last for a while - don't forget that over here in the UK it costs about £15 to cash a dollar cheque, so that you have to set high payment thresholds anyway to make it worth it. With this new HP Amazon thing, it will probably take a long, long time to get $500 from my blogs!
CM I don't know. It's certainly not a good thing. The big hitters on HP know their stuff. Upping and leaving, taking hubs with them, that's leaving holes behind. These are the guys that have online strategies etc etc.
When I start shifting my hubs, they won't be lying around like they are here. I will be aiming to out rank HP, and anything else I can possibly sit above, as a means of making them work.
Thankfully I stopped publishing on HP, because the whole thing gave me a bad feeling. Initially I was waiting it out. HP was a strong site and carried a lot of weight. Over time it became apparent that what was done was staying done.
I've managed to recoup some of the losses by building sites of my own. THat's been a big old load of fun, and a whole lot of hard work but 6 months in, I'm getting some pretty impressive returns for the effort.
I still freelance, which helps, and will hopefully not have do use that as a fall back in the future.
RE Amazon - I completely understand. The whole set up is not quite so super-awesome as many appear to believe. I tell you CM - any time some one starts messing with my income, I don't roll over for my tummy tickled.
I'm sure sorry to hear that you may become a victim of the latest, 'greatest' improvements, that sucks
Glad that your own sites are doing well frogdropping . One thing I miss about the old HP is the community - it just doesn't feel the same any more, and I don't think it is appreciated enough how much help and advice the experts used to give in the forums
I don't like the new move, but since my August plunge I have so little traffic to my hubs that it doesn't matter too much - no clicks is no clicks. But if I do earn on Amazon I want all the earnings from all channels to accrue in the same place!
I need to mend my broken word press site and build up my blogs and keep on with the learning and trying!
In theory it would look as if I was going to one of the people to benefit from this. The number of sales that occur from the click 'thros' that I get is pathetic so my percentage is low. However it does not feel right that others should lose out. When I look at the work people have put into making their Amazon sales hubs, while I was just testing the ground with mine. Plus the not being able join accounts together limits my ability to adapt and evolve here.
I am not really happy about being forced to do this move for other reasons but do not want to go on about that.
2tuesday - why do you think you're conversion rate will improve? If you're averaging (an example) 10 positive click thru's a day now, then you'll average the same post-changes.
The increase is supposed to come from the fact that HP can deliver an increase in the earning tier %'s. As in if you're at 6% now, you'll increase by 2.5%
Funny thing is this - the way to increase your income isn't just upping the %. You need A) traffic and B)converions. Where's the traffic? Looking at HP's stats, site wide traffic is not what it was. And let's not forget how many hubs have been published since February.
Anyway - if you're not happy about the changes, say so, you're entitled to your opinion. HP have said that they welcome all feedback. We're not being offensive, we're being honest and constructive.
I was a big fan and proponent of HP ... but, over the last couple of months every damn proposed and forced change has been something that would negatively effect me.
The Amazon "opportunity" wont be as bad in regards to diluting of overall sales/reaching payout for me as I pulled most of my successful niche accounts following the foolish and ineffective amazon/text ratio crap which was hurting my layout style.
So dont have successful niche accounts that will be left hanging.
But, the ebay change is AWFUL .. as it will expose my personal ePn successes to HP staff, (not claiming that the staff is unethical .. but there is just no reason to give that data away! .. some intern, tech guy on his way out the door can now just pull up some successful terms and niches to pad his pockets as he looks for a new job)
Plus, they forced this change coming right into the christmas season which means we lose out on the quality of our previous campaign and the increased revenue that brings.
It is depressing to see that the forums are silent and blissfully ignorant of how these changes may effect them. I guess, some will just have to wait until they have some online successes elsewhere in order to learn how this platform has degraded in comparison.
Even something as simple as the Paypal switch ... you might say hey whats the big deal .. paypal is cool! The little annoyances will catch up ... did you like your amazon direct deposit? Will you enjoy waiting an extra 3-5 days to see your paypal funds transfer to your bank account? Maybe you have a paypal card ... do you like having to always pay an atm fee if you need cash? Not to mention waiting an extra 30 days!
All these little things really add up, Hubpages really isnt doing anything to help the individual user experience, the cheerleaders apparently just arent making the income levels to have the experience to understand how lame most of this.
I was never one to talk actual income levels as it really isnt helpful for comparison between users, conversion and traffic levels are better metrics .... but just for a compare and contrast on this topic where it is helpful .. last year ePN had bonus scheme in place for a few months ... with 90% of sales coming from one small hp niche account, all mostly brand new hubs, I received a $xxxx bonus check (on top of regular earnings) .. so when you mention $30 or yeah, reached payout, Im happy for you ... but poor policy decisions have much larger repercussions for me.
Thanks frogdropping, I guess that the profile pic must suit the way this is making you feel. I know the conversion rate would not increase for me but possibly the % might. I do get a very low conversion rate, I think 'they' might go off and buy elsewhere after viewing because of shipping costs or something, or not put the object in the basket until another day. Not sure I really understand how the big A works.
I am wondering about things that apply now and how they will work after the switch; like the lower rate I think Amazon pay for conversions on some products (maybe its laptops or /cameras/phones). How are HubPages going to go with that, same rate as other products? I do n't understand if the rules about when the cookie for your 'click thro' lasts until, will be the same time either. Too many variables for me to grasp this concept, in one go.
@ CM - yes, you need to fix your site. What's wrong with it?
@ 2uesday - I've had the same avatar since I came to HP AS for everything else, some is answered on the FAQ's, some of it remains unclear. Which isn't good as things aren't unclear re the direct relationship between Amazon and hubbers now.
I installed a plugin that it didn't like and got a blank screen - then I fiddled with it and broke it some more. I think that I need to uninstall WP, reinstall and start again - I do all my writing in Word so haven't lost the content. I'm just having 'gettingaroundtoititis' LOL!
I broke one of mine while adding code to the html of the site without first saving a back-up.
Luckily simply installing a new theme brought it all back (I had nothing saved at all, I would have lost the lot!).
Might be worth trying, rather than uninstalling Wordpress.
If you are comfortable accessing your site via ftp, just rename your plugin folder to something besides "plugins" ... your site will prob pop right back .. then you an ust troubleshoot plugin by plugin
Doesnt really matter if the site has been down a long time, but in the future, maybe, its a great quick fix to keep your site live
That sounds like it's truly broken CM. Can you not just uninstall the plugin? Or contanct the creater? Or is that creator?
actually, if you are not comfortable with ftp yet ... this would be a great first chance to get comfortable ... since you were considering a reinstall anyway!
No, I renamed the plugins folder - no site popping back up! I think I probably deleted something important first time round!
swap in a fresh wp-config file, replace htaccess file.
look up in wp codex for a how to. (http://codex.wordpress.org/)
both very easy to do.
I never made much with Amazon, only two payouts in two years. That was up until last year, when I made fifty dollars in about six months. I was elated, but when the program came to an end here in California, I used my credit to buy Nutella. Sure some people make more than others, but any amount you make can be rewarding. It depends on how you look at it. If you are relying on this as an income it might not be good news, but I like to spread myself out over many other things anyway. The net is just extra income for me anyway, on top of my real work.
Wilderness I think you're missing the point. This is your supplementary income, not your primary. It's like you're working 4.5 hours on Wednesday nights for a few extra bucks.
Imagine this: one week your primary income source (i.e. your bricks and mortar job) was $2000. You carry on going out to work every day, thinking all's well with your world. The following week your wage has been slashed by 50%. Not good, not good at all.
But you've no one to appeal to, no one that's got an explanation to offer. So you just knuckle down, confused and worried but you gotta keep working - and tighten your belt. Over the ensuing weeks the income quickly reduces until it's hardly worth writing home about. Shit! The rent! The bills! Food ... ohmigod you've gotta kid too!
And still no one has an explanation. Unfortunately, some of your time is then tied up with the fact that those above you are flapping, unsure themselves as to what's happened, and issuing all kinds of knee-jerk 'you must do this, that or the other or ... or ... ' reactions.
That's what happened to me Wilderness.
My work is no less valid than yours, or that of anyone that's out there working hard to earn their keep. HP are not my bosses. At best I consider a hubber and the site to have some kind of loose financial relationship. Still, that doesn't alter the fact that HP hold the reigns, which means that I must comply, or move on.
That's not really very beneficial to me, is it? Whilst I recognise the ebb and flow environment that is working online, neither do I appreciate being made to feel that I should shut up or ship out.
Why on Earth would I want my Amazon income taken off me by HP, then given back to me as and when I meet their criteria? I'm already earning it Wilderness, it's mine. HP aren't giving me anything, I'm not benefiting - they are.
If the equivalent was happening to you in your place of work, I very much doubt you'd have the same 'it's not so bad' attitude. It is bad, especially for those that don't need it. And I still haven't had a clear explanation as to why it's happening, why I have to (or else!) blithely hand over the control of my income.
Thankfully I have other income streams, so I'm not reliant on HP. But that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with you or the soon-to-be-implemented Amazon policy. It massively sucks for me and far many more on HP than you'd believe.
If anyone on HP wishes to 'go quietly into the abyss' that is their choice, and if it works for them, all good, honest! However, it's not good for me, not even close and despite my friendly demeanor etc, I do not button up the back.
Truthfully? The last time I rolled over and played dead, I really was trying to do just that. If you want to take my money out of my pocket, either do it while I'm not looking, or be upfront and honest about it.
No, Frogdropping, I don't think I'm missing the point.
I do not write for a living, no, but I do depend on HP income to help out considerably, particularly as I was unemployed for a time this year. As you say, going from thousands per month to unemployment hurts; when Panda takes away the little bit the HP provided it hurts as well. I fully understand and sympathize with you folks that make a living writing online - I don't see how you are keeping it together this year.
What I don't understand is the enormous doom and gloom that this program is provoking. Yes, out-of-country writers will lose some from using paypal. Yes, some hubbers are using HP amazon sales to prop up and increase payments from other sites and may lose a small amount. Yes, some people will have to wait longer to reach payout. And finally, yes, it concerns me that HP will now have all our earnings firmly in their hands.
I don't know the cost of using paypal out of the US - some can't get it at all, and Mark says he loses 10% to exchange rates. Hp has stated they will work with those that have real problems, like not being able to use paypal at all or not being able to withdraw all they earn. If you are losing 10% to exchange rates that is a large concern for a few. Not all, not even very many, but some, and the litany that everybody out of country will lose big time is unreasonable. Most will find increased earnings giving them more than that 10% - I'm usually in the 6-6.5% bracket and will thus see about a 30% increase with no increase in sales.
A few will also see losses from not adding total sales over many sites together. Again, though, I don't see very many in that fix - I've played with the numbers and only found a few scenarios that actually result in a loss, such as already being top tier on HP while earning less on all other sites combined. I keep seeing that anyone with multiple sites will lose, but it isn't so.
Not many with any kind of income at all will have to wait more than a month to get it in spite of so many people saying they will. Again, the scenarios I can come up with don't support that idea.
That leaves the fact that HP will be handling your income, and that is a concern. I don't understand, however, just how that is going to hurt you unless HP steals from you. You might get paid a week later - is that such a huge deal? I've been paid as much as 3 weeks after earning it from an ordinary job - HP will pay a week later than Amazon would have.
That's what I just don't get. For the life of me I can't see any but a very very few losers in this deal, and the majority of those aren't going to lose much at all, but to read these posts everyone with an Amazon capsule is going to lose thousands per month. It just isn't going to happen.
I agree with everything you said frog, although I have never been one of the high earners like you and Mark.
I also have concerns about what will happen once HP have control over all earnings sources. One of the things many hubbers, myself included, liked was that we were paid directly from Amazon or Adsense.
What happens if, when everyone is rolled up into this new system, that they decide that they only want to pay 6%, 5% or 4%? We can say now this can never happen (and so could they), but nobody could guarantee that it wouldn't happen in the future. And what recourse would hubbers have? It would be put up or pull out?
I much prefer the current system of getting paid for my own work. Because I'm one of the plungers trust me that ain't much at the moment, but it is what I earned from my own efforts and I value that. Also, however they tinker with their earnings programmes - no traffic still equals no money! So I'd much rather they continued to investigate the causes of the drops
With you there CM! I much prefer the idea of being paid directly, even though like you I'm not a high earner and it takes me ages to reach the Amazon threshold I've set myself.
I am taking down the hubs on my other, "salesy" account and am either putting them on my own Wordpress niche site or republishing them on Wizzley. Wizzley seems much like Hubpages as it used to be, with the main difference being that articles are moderated before they're allowed to go live. I personally like this approach, as it will hopefully stop the site from being flooded with spam. I have a few ex-hubs on Squidoo and will probably move those to Wizzley as well. Squidoo has this annoying policy of putting your lenses in purdah unless you can successfully jump through a series of social hoops ("get Squidliked by a Giant Squid"...grr).
Good to see that a few more people are finally realising exactly what hubpages are doing.
Removing all income sources from you, other than those controlled by hubpages.
I think it's modelled on the "Company Store" principle, which was common amongst a certain sector of the American labour force in the 17 and 1800's.
I would not say before what I did not like about this change as I did not want to speak in haste about it, also I do not consider myself the most knowledgeable of hubbers on how things work. However, in the past I have kept doubts to myself and waited for someone else to say a similar thing at a later date.
What feels wrong about this is that it deprives us of one of the great things I thought I had by writing here - the word that I am thinking of is independence.
As we go step by step down the road and gradually all our writing eggs (hubpages articles) are going into the one huge Hubpages Basket we need an awful amount of trust that the person/persons carrying this basket will not drop all or part of it and as it tumbles so do we.
We have seen the turmoil changes from Google can create almost overnight and that should have been a lesson to all. Those who remain are the mainly the stalwarts who were prepared to hold tight and double there efforts to make things work instead of abandoning ship.
If you work for someone and your conditions change you should (not that it always works out this way) be able to negotiate an amicable agreement. I do not expect this from HubPages as I view it as a place that belongs to someone and if I do not like the terms then I am the one who has to pack up and exit.
Although I could possibly benefit from the change, but thinking about this, what if the terms do not work out as well as we expect them to for us once we have moved over; there is no going back. Now with the Hub Ads. you can dip your toe in the water and go back to Adsense if it does not suit you, not so with this Amazon change come the new year it is a fait accompli for better for worse.
I have yet to see the exact terms of the new deal though I have tried to find them I can only see how it might work and no set % and are the rates they set fixed or will they go up and down with the success or not of the whole scheme.
Well now I've said my piece, I am off now, not to leave the site, but to cook a dinner party and to work 2mrw, back as soon as possible to see if I am still welcome here.
From what I can guess any boost in rates will only have any major effect on earnigns of a huge amount, ie. hubpages. I stand to lose a lot of cash here without purposefully breaking Paypals terms of service (Creating a personal American account and an English account), or losing money with a business account or conversion fees. Want to know how bad teh conversion fees are with paypal, put ten dollars in your account, convert it to GB and then convert it back to USD.
Thank you CmHypno that is nice of you to say. I just read thisisoli's post here and I had not even thought of that, another factor to consider.
Good points all, thank you for adding to this thread.
@ 2uesday - CM is right. Hubpages (et al) are not trolls in cupboards, waiting to close our accounts because we voice our opinion. I don't doubt that I'd get a mighty ass-kick if I was saying what I have, as well as include foul language, wild accusations and general top to toe filth.
I'm not, you're not, so don't worry. It's called freedom of speech, and I don't see that anyone on this thread has been anything other than courteous. And like I said to you before - Paul has said (more than once) that HP welcomes all feedback.
I don't consider myself a big earner on Hubpages. And I personally have no issues with Paypal. However, since I am in the U.S. the exchange rates do not affect me.
My biggest issue is that the thing that I liked most about Hubpages, being able to use my already existing accounts on Adsense, Amazon, and Ebay, is now going by the wayside. This increases my risk, and reduces my ability to spread my income around amongst different sources in case they go belly up.
I am a big big supporter of spreading my income into several different baskets, and this move just does the opposite. When added to the greatly reduced payouts and earnings from Hubs from just one year ago, that is not good.
If this site had been set up that way initially, there would be less protest. However, the fact that it wasn't is the problem which is not being addressed.
@ lakee - yep, eggs in one basket is not recommended. That's what's happening in sense. I learnt my lesson when panda kicked in. Not that I was 100% reliant on HP but I got lazy, enjoyed the community and found it sooooo much easier to publish hubs. My bad.
As for Amazon requring total participation. From the common sense perspective, why on Earth would they want to increase their financial outgoings? That's what's going to happen when they pay into one 8.5% pot. That said, maybe there's money to gain back, through being able to use affiliates that no longer used Amazon due to their location.
Who knows? I sure don't.
Wilderness - this whole thread was started because I don't see any reason as to why I have to hand over my affiliation with Amazon to Hubpages. The End.
If it benefits you, him, them, dive in. Why wouldn't you? But it won't benefit me. I cannot see one solid reason why I should suffer further loss and financial control to continue my relationship with Amazon on HP.
The fact is I won't continue with my Amazon affiliation on HP. I will drop my entire Amazon collection the minute the rule kicks in. I shall take my hubs and publish them elsewhere.
I am the type of person that will ask questions when I think questions need asking. I'm going to become collateral damage in this new move.
And you stated: when Panda takes away the little bit the HP provided it hurts as well. Wrong. Panda hammered HP because the site attracted its attention. The Panda algo did its job.
You may be entirely correct in deciding not to continue amazon hubs on HP - when a good portion of your living income is put into the hands of HP that's scary. I don't know but what I would do the same thing in your shoes.
Google puts us all in the same boat - they control the purse strings in a way that neither HP nor amazon (nor anyone else) can. On a whim, they have nearly destroyed the livelihood of thousands upon thousands throughout the world. Unfortunately, while you can leave HP, we can only wish that there was an alternative to google.
@Wildernesss. In regards to your $100 a day for $140 tomorrow point.
I would not be seeing a 2.5% increase, I would be seeing a 0.5% increase on my hubpages earnings, and probably a 1-2% drop in earnings on my other sites.
The people who will benefit from this are the people who make the least, eventually. So the people who made $10 today will make $14 tomorrow, but they wont hit payout thresh hold for four months, and they wont get paid until three months after that.
I on the other hand will probably lose money overall, have to wait an extra 30 days to get paid, will lose another few percent in paypal currency conversion fees, and I will no longer be able to use my Amazon data to explore prospective niches with the same efficiency.
It also means that the balance moving through my paypal account every month will hit the 'danger levels' where people seem to regularly suffer from temporarily disabled accounts left inaccessible for months.
Just because Hubpages wants leverage should not make this yet another reason for the more successful Hubbers to be thrown under the bus. Affiliate links have already gone presumably because of Hub ads. The text to ad ratio dropped my conversions, and I am losing out on eBay too. If my last remaining source of income on Hubpages drops in value, combined with an additional 30 day wait period, things here will look grim for me.
I'll try again. For you to gain .5% on HP traffic means that it is currently in the 8% tier. The center of that tier is about 1000 sales. Given that each sale is for $10 (probably low?) that's $10,000 worth of sales; .5% of that is $50 gain in HP income.
If your other sites will be in the 6% tier (losing 2%) that means around 20 sales. Assuming again that each sale is $10 that's $200 in sales; you will go from $16 income to $12 for a $4 loss.
The net is that you gain $46. If the average sale is higher, the difference will increase. I see that I'm averaging $27 sale price; using that figure will result in almost triple the increase in total earnings.
The $10 for $14 is based on missing payout this month but making it next month and figuring you went from 6% to 8.5%. If you miss amazon payout of $10, I can't get excited about missing it. If you miss the amazon payout of $100 you can still make HP payout (using amazon income ONLY) by earning $50. That would mean that you would have earned, at 6%, only $35; you won't make amazon payout for 3 months ($105) whereas you will make it each month at HP ($50 per month, or $150 in 3 months). Hubbers already earning in the upper tiers won't see any difference; they will always earn payout each month no matter what.
Even using your figure of earning $10 each month (at 6%) a hubber will now earn $56 in four months (at 8.5%), making payout two months later. Is a $10 check each month worth losing that extra $16? Especially when HPads will probably make up the difference anyway - I believe it would be unusual to earn $10 amazon without earning at least $40 HPads, thus making payout.
I am perhaps confused about the pay period. I understood that HP would be paying less than a week after amazon paid them. That's only 2 months after earning, not 3 months. Yes, HP waffled a bit and said that it could take 3 months, but did not expect to do that. For now I'll take their word for it and expect payment 2 months after earning, just as I do now.
I can't really address paypal issues. Apparently the exchange rate is poor, some countries have a limit on how much can be withdrawn, and you say that paypal may terminate an account for no activity. I DO know that I have gone as much as 2 years without any activity (except may an eBay purchase or two) and never had a problem, but others may have a different experience.
Thisisoli, I fully recognize that long term hubbers with high income levels have very legitimate concerns - I just don't think that hardly anyone is going to actually lose on this deal monetarily. Paypal and exchange fees could make a difference, but even that would be unusual from what I've seen on these forums. Even if Mark is right and you can expect to lose 10% right off the top, the first example in this post calculates out to a loss of $85 to paypal while picking up $46 - less than $40 on earnings of $850. That's less than 5% net loss and I really don't see many hubbers facing even that.
If I'm wrong and lots of people are actually losing money on this, I would hope that HP will offer a different payment plan. They're not stupid - they can add, too - and will have lots more data than anyone else. Losing lots of top earning hubbers would hurt - better to find some way to institute this without loss to top earners.
It's not that they don't terminate for no activity, it's that they are well known to place holds on accounts, especially when overseas transactions are involved. These holds often take months to get removed. What would you do if your bank suddenly decided to withold your paychecks for 3-6 months?
In terms of percentages, by using the entire hubber portfolio they can negotiate for higher commission rates, its a common practice in this business. They stand to gain a lot from this.
While I have no problem with them doing this in itself, I think it is a good idea to negotiate higher rates, I object to the fact they are forcing me in to a situation that could lose me money.
If they get a rate that makes up for this - fantastic, lets go, but until I see that I would like the option to remain on my own affiliate ID's.
In the meantime though considerations such as Californias Nexus tax and reporting issues continue to make this an undesireable proposition for me.
I never learned how to make Adsense, Amazon and Ebay work, so what do i know about loss ? *shakes skull*
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