The.........CHANCES.......

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   gmwilliamsposted 8 years ago

   
   Do you believe that children from lower socioeconomic circumstances are doomed to lives of educational & socioeconomic poverty, even becoming members of a permanent generational underclass w/no educational & socioeconomic prospects?   Do you also believe that ONLY upper middle & upper class children will become highly educated &socioeconomically successful?

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      TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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         gmwilliamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         Excellent statement, welcome to the post, Tess.  Continue the discussion.

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         Margaridabposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         This is a very good answer that describes what I feel and think. I would only like to add something that I find pertinent. If we think about educational system, the one that should open doors for us all, we can find that usually, public education is not so well organized as private education. There's no fairness on reaching high cultural levels. If you come from lower and hard working classes you usually have not much time with children to stimulate and motivate other issues then those that feed you. Upper classes have it all.. time and money to do better.

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            gmwilliamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000-both Tess and Marg are correct in their premises. The book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell authenticated the premise that lower & working class parents spend less time w/their children, leaving their children to their own devices while solidly middle, upper middle, & upper class parents have the physical, emotional, & socioeconomic resources to spend time w/their children.
            
            Also solidly middle, upper middle, & upper class parents, on average, are better educated & have smaller families.  These variegated factors transfer into more monies for educational & socioeconomic opportunities for their children to go far educationally & socioeconomically.   Parents from lower socioeconomic echelons-the lower middle, working, lower, & underclass, on average, are the least educated.  Another factor is that such parents have larger families.  As we all know, parents in large/very large families aren't involved in their children's lives.  Their main concern are the rudiments, nothing beyond that.  Such children are left to their own devices very early in life.  Life for children in the lower socioeconomic echelons is precarious at best & perilous at worst.  These children end up to be THE LEAST EDUCATED & POOREST as adults.  As parents, they will be continuing the impoverished socioeconomic legacy for yet another generation.

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      Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      That is as correct assessment as you have ever stated. Plutocracy, Trumpthink and the GOP House of Lords are taking us down this road with ideas that threatens the foundation of democracy and the prosperity of the middle class.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Beautiful image!

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         gmwilliamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      success is an ambiguous word.  For instance as "analysis of observable evidence": Success to my mother was much different than success to my father.
      In the end they were both successful in their own ways. Sadly, they couldn't recognize it in the other.

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2. 78

   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   No, it has to do with the individual himself. Some do not have the karma to become rich, some do.
   We might as well discuss the whole picture while we're at it. For instance I am not rich, but I feel rich.
   I live simply, yet elegantly ... knowing the race to obtain MORE will only complicate my life. I love freedom and free time more than money. That may change and when it does, I will end up sacrificing what I love most: Freedom.

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      TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         The individual picks where he is born. He knows the situation he is being born into. A child born in the congo with HIV pretty much knew he would not become wealthy. He accepted other challenges.  Perhaps the challenge to love where there is hate. That could become a wealth no one can take away. A different kind of challenge. A different kind of wealth. There is no money in heaven but we can bring heaven to earth. There is money on earth, but we can't take it to heaven. So which is a more realistic goal in the final analysis?

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            Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

            That all sounds so lofty and flowery. How does that play when you are on the margins of survival while there are people that you and I both know who boasts of sitting on solid gold commodes?  What you say flows from those for whom it is easy to talk. Would you really trade places with the afflicted? I am forced to believe the adage that will apply to man into the forseeable future as it was true as far back as one chooses to retreat " we will always hunt and and we are always hunted.
            
            So, if you are born into poverty you should accept it? If we were all content with such inequity, we would have no need for war. Everybody would simply be content with their relative stations in life, sit down and be quiet? Not a chance!!

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            TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               Without the whole picture … the metaphysical aspect of our existence, life cannot be fathomed. If you do not want the whole picture you are doomed to ramble on and on without any answers. If that's what you want, go right on ahead.
               
               I will not stand in your way any further.
               
               … but my brother did have Mars in Capricorn and now owns his own house and the house next door. He started with absolutely no money from my father who believed people should work for what they get in life. So work my brother did. 
               I have Neptune in the Second house, which is not good for dealing with money realistically. I have a feeling I will get my share of the inheritance, seeing how I have Venus in the eighth house and all …
               
               I'm done.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   No one is born into wealth without having achieved it himself in some past lifetime. Who can handle the amount of money Trump handles? I couldn't. Those who win Lottery money usually end up squandering it. They do not know how to manage it or spend it wisely.

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      Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      If my daddy gave me several millions of dollars, I sure that I could do great things as well. Trump is an aristocratic clown no more deserving of credit for his station in life anymore than Marie Antoinette could take credit for hers.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         You are guessing.
         What would you do with money your father gave you? If you cannot answer this question immediately it is because you haven't given it much thought. The first brother was an entrepreneur from the time he was ten with his own paper route delivering papers at four in the morning on his bike. I remember waking up at when it was still dark and he would be folding and rubber banding those papers ... Oh whoops.

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            Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

            If I am guessing, so are you.
            
            Why do I have to answer the question about what I would do with my father's inheritance immediately? The wise man would ponder carefully about how to apply such a sum.
            
            Yes, and so what? I had a paper route at 12 years folding papers and delivering them on a bike. I was of an entrepreneurial spirit but I did not end of wealthy. There are any people who work just as hard and all are not successful in having riches showered upon them. For a matter of fact, that is most people.
            
            Vast inequity and subsequent injustice guarantees war and strife, if you are interested in self preservation, we better start leveling the playing field.

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               TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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                  Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Thank you, Tess!

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      TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         No one is born for greatness. They are born for great purposes. If you have no purpose, then … Greatness for the sake of itself alone does not last long. Without a purpose, no one is willing to get their hands dirty.

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            TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               Free will…
                 One is not under the direction of the stars. One is under the direction of one's self. What one has done in a past life is revealed in a chart. What opportunities present themselves are shown in a chart. What one does with their opportunities and talents developed in last lives is always up to one's own choosing. If you could come up with a purpose you would succeed easily. For some reason you sabotage your purposes and/or choice of purposes. I wonder why?

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                  TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     So you do not sabotage your own potential for greatness?

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                        TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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                           Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                           Then why do you say you are not "great?" Sounds great to me!
                           You have purpose and you have a strong will. All revealed in your chart.
                           My pont is that money is not everything.
                           Not too much, not too little.
                           What is wrong with that?
                           Is it better to be born with little or not born at all?
                           Ask the person who is born. They find joy. They are joy ... no matter how much money they have as long as they have fresh water, food, love and a roof over their heads.
                           If one cannot not provide those things they should not be having sex with anyone.

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                              TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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                                 Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                 was that true for the Indian Nations?

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   I know someone with two brothers. One is wealthy through hard work and the motivation to succeed. However, he has become coldhearted. He has become selfish. In fact, he wants to divorce his wife, but he won't because she will get half of their assets.
   The other brother is also wealthy. His goal was to provide for his wife and family and be the best manager he could be. In all his efforts to love and provide for his family and serve his company he too has become wealthy.
   
   They both got up and went to work and earned a lot of money. One is happy one is not. The first one has become greedy and in fact, plans to horde all the inheritance money to himself.
   There is a moral to this story but I don't know what it is.
   
   PS No one gave them money to begin with.

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      Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      KH, first of all there is no real scientific basis for astrology. There are no stars or relative alignment of planets that control my destiny. There are many that give much credence to it, but it is not my cup of tea. Please don't tell me that you are so naive to believe that simple Aesop fables can explain the vastness of inequity in this world.
      
      I am not denying that people have different objectives in life but for you to say that everybody ends up with what it is they work for or seek as an equitable outcome is a fantasy.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         Newton believed in Astrology.

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            Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I can forgive Sir Issac Newton, one of the world's brightest for that belief. He lived in the 17th century, you live in the 21st and should know better. In spite of Newton' s revelation to the world of important physical laws, he could have not have understood, nor appreciate that many of his findings were to be surplanted by the theories of Albert Einstein.
            
            I cannot realistically expect Newton to be as knowledgeable in all things in the way he was in certain areas of physics for the period of time in which he lived
            
            
            So, just because he said so, does not give it automatic credibility.

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5. 78

   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   Their astrological charts can be compared here to determine karma and personality. Astrology reveals what a person was in his last life. The first brother does not have a chart which reveals heart and feeling, while the second brother does. The first brother was always a bit more materialistic and not as people oriented as the second. The first brother loves things. The second brother loves people. Which loves you back?
   People or things?
   Not everyone even wants to be wealthy ... or do the things which gets them there.
   But it is best to remember, the highest good is that which is for the sake of itself AND something else.
   I think this principle is exemplified by the second brother.

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6. 78

   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   That brother has Mars in Capricorn.

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7. 78

   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   You guys are making me sleepy ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz

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      TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         I can't. There is no talking to those who believe in socialism. The ghost of John Holden is lurking. I do believe he could not be beaten by even wilderness. So I am out .…

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      Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Goodnight, KH, get some sleep and think over the true nature of your words and how they play in our discourse here.

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8. 78

   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   superstitions exist in India as well as anywhere else. Reality exists however and that reality is this:
   We have free will. Whatever situation we're in, we can adapt and make it beneficial to ourselves. What stops us from surviving? what ?
   Our own lack of intelligence, effort, direction, determination, will to succeed, the ability to be future orientated, aware, helpful, intuitive, clever and creative. What shuts down all these abilities? NO FREEDOM which is what socialism thrives on.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   Socialism requires one thing to make it work:
   A money tree. But with a money tree, life would be way too easy.  We wouldn't get anywhere. Life is not to live easily. It is to live by hook or crook, (without harming anyone else.) Intense effort and urgency. Willingness to die... because what is death? Death is advancement, it is rising above the earth plane. The earth plane is a sham. We need to leave. Let us leave by our best efforts, In some kind of glory, not sitting around playing cards.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

    May I remind you that the indigenous lived here for eons off the land and used little money.

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       TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          opportunity for happiness?
          opportunity for what else is important?

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

    we live on the astral plane @ 500 years before coming back. This life time is quite short.. seven or so decades? compared to five centuries?
    what can be gained in a handful of decades?   not much, if you don't TRY.
      not much at all.

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       TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          If we don't TRY. If there are NO Challenges  If we tax everyone, if everyone chips in, if self-interest is denied there is no point to even being alive. We already have a social democracy and look, we're all falling asleep.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

    I would rather be an Indian living off the land rather than be labeled poor or homeless. Yes, they were poor and homeless in our eyes. But they had dignity and love. They had strength, power and freedom. They had a lot which we took away and replaced it with what we call wealth and civilization. We give them a false God when they had a real God. They respected Great Spirit in nature. We imagine a being who punishes or rewards us in heaven and you talk about scientific methods? I am all for wealth when it is generated within a system of free market enterprise within appropriate boundaries. The boundaries are what we need to be discussing. Freedom within boundaries.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

    Health is also very important. Learning how to manage one's diet without pharmaceutical drugs is of utmost importance.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

    In a nation as large as this one it won't work. It is impractical.

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       TessSchlesingerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

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          gmwilliamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          To all, great points made.  Discussion is interesting-continue.

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             gmwilliamsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

             The 21st century will be an arduous & a cutthroat one, particularly for the poor.  The poor will become increasingly marginalized in this century as services will be exorbitantly expensive.  Even the solidly middle class will feel the pinch.  Not only when the poor become increasingly marginalized, they will be locked out of 21st century culture & society.  They will exist at a more primitive, even barbaric level than they have ever existed before.   In poor communities, there will be a strict law of the jungle.  Poor communities will be reminiscent of the early Dark Ages in medieval Europe or in more modern terms, analogous to the Nazi concentration camps in World War 2. 
             
             People from the lower classes(underclass, poor, working, & lower middle) will be locked into their original socioeconomic status.  There won't be opportunities for them to advance themselves educationally nor socioeconomically.   They will be the NEW SLAVE class.  Also, people are becoming sick of the lower socioeconomic class because their tax monies go to myriad social programs.  Social programs for the poor are being cut so the poor will be totally in a quagmire socioeconomically.  In the future, only those who are upper middle & upper class will have the opportunities to live their dreams.

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                Kathryn L Hillposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                WHY?
                because you know our educational system will not help one iota.
                Bummer.

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                   gmwilliamsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                   The societal consensus now is that people are poor through their own unintelligent choices.  It is believed that there is simply no excuse to be poor nowadays & that people who make educated & intelligent choices AREN'T poor.  They are at the least, solidly middle class( middle-middle class).  Many people contend that if the poor THOUGHT before they ACTED, they would make better choices.  They would be educated, not indulge in immediate gratification, & value achievement & bettering oneself.   They also wouldn't indulge in irresponsible actions such as sex w/o birth control.  They would marry & have children only when they are educationally, emotionally, mentally, psychologically, & socioeconomically prepared.  They wouldn't marry young.  Poor people marry the YOUNGEST.  They would put off marriage until their 30s like the solidly middle, upper middle, & upper classes do. 
                   
                   If one observes poor people, they have a VASTLY DIFFERENT consciousness, mentality & outlook than the solidly middle, upper middle, & upper classes.   Poor people by the working definition includes the underclass, lower, working, & lower middle classes.  Yes, the lower middle class is the "gentrified" lower class.  They believe in immediate gratification, act impulsively w/o thinking of the future ramifications of their actions, have a suspicion against education & self-improvement, fearful of becoming highly successful, & marry very young before they are established educationally & socioeconomically.  These are people who have a more limited view of age than the more affluent classes.  While 30 is old for the poor, it ISN'T to the more affluent classes.   Poor people, on average, have a more limited view of the world & they act upon such limitation.
                   
                   
                   
                   

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                TessSchlesingerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

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                   gmwilliamsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                   It's going to be a literal hell on earth, particularly for the solidly middle class to the impoverished.  Lower level, less specialized white collar jobs are being phased out so the solidly middle class will sink into the lower class, becoming the new poor.  Of course, lesser skilled jobs will be overtaken by A1s & robots, if not phased out.  There was a book that I read two decades ago, indicating that w/advanced technology, those w/o highly specialized skills will be the new poor, even impoverished.   Welcome to the BRAVE DARK WORLD of the 21st century.   It  isn't going to get better, folks.  In fact, it's going to become.....MUCH WORSE.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

    we already have a social democracy and the government mismanages the money we contribute.
    Lets just go ahead and move on to anarchy while we're at it.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

    going to bed, Tess, my eyes have had it. Thanks for steering me in the proper direction. The scientific method is something I need to work on.

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