Food for Thought Yet Evermore
This is what one would call inverse logic. There are people who value struggle. They believe that struggle is normative. They don't believe in a life which is without struggle. They deride people who have abundance & have it much easier than they do. They somehow contend that they are superior people because they struggle & have scarcity. They are of the school that if they are struggling & have scarcity, everyone should have scarcity also. They even imbue their children that struggle & scarcity are good & anything beyond struggle is a mortal transgression. What causes people to glorify, even deify struggle & scarcity, not wanting a life beyond struggle?I believe that you are speaking of a certain class of people, but I have met certain people who can't stand to be happy. This has nothing or little to do with the class you describe, but I think it plays in here. This is a mental illness in these people, so do you think this class of people suffer from the same mental illness or mental defect?
The person or persons of whom I speak struggle with trying to be successful, but at the first signs that they are succeeding, they do something, consciously or subconsciously, that causes failure. In short, they cut their own throats; they hoist themselves up on their own petards. Then when they fail, they run around lamenting that the world is against them. "Poor little me." I believe this makes them happy...temporarily.Yes, this is a sign of mental illness. To go even further, this attitude is a sign of toxicity. Many poor people can be characterized as having toxicity in their attitude. They have such negative thinking. They love being poor. They love to struggle, even seeing struggling as a badge of honor. They hate people who have it much easier than they do. They view such people as weak somehow. I see this behavior among the lower classes.
I also see such behavior among those from large/very large families. I remember one parent of a large/very large family indicating that although her children were at a distinct disadvantage, the struggle & poverty builds so-called character. This person was aware of her actions, she knowingly brought her children into the world socioeconomically impoverished but she could care less about the socioeconomic plight of her children.
Such inverse logic exists among the lower socioeconomic classes & those from large/very large families who comprise many of the lower socioeconomic classes. If you observe the lower socioeconomic classes & those from large/very large families, you will find that there is a glorification of poverty, struggle, & scarcity. Such people revel in doing without, even the rudiments. They relish living barely on a subsistence level. They are envious & hate those who are socioeconomically affluent & have it easier than they do.
MizBejabbers, these are the same people who call affluent people & those from small families "spoiled" because the latter have a comfortable life full of opportunities which the former don't have. Yes, the lower socioeconomic classes & those from large/very large families have a much different culture than those who are socioeconomically affluent & those from small families. Such people believe that they are normal, even superior in their struggle & scarcity while in actuality struggle & scarcity aren't normal but aberrations. However, try telling them that.
Yes, this is abnormal; however, many poor people & those from large/ very large families which is a sub-category of poor people have this aberration- they love being poor, glorifying in it. They abhor those who are more affluent, calling them extravagant & poor. If you ever observe the behavior of poor people & those from large/very families, you will see this toxic attitude towards socioeconomic achievement. No they view such as an anathema, seeing the "beauty" of poverty, struggle, & scarcity, passing such toxic indoctrination to succedent generations.A further example of such toxic behavior was my oldest maternal aunt. She was poor all her life. In addition to this, she came from an anaconda sized family. She relished being poor & hated those who were socioeconomically better off than she was. She simply refused to better herself educationally & socioeconomically. She viewed being poor as a badge of honor.
She hated me even as a child because I was socioeconomically better off. She also hated one of my maternal grandaunts who was socioeconomically affluent. She criticized this aunt because the latter had an easier life, due to the latter's hard work & investments. This aunt didn't work hard but just stewed in her toxicity. She was jealous of me because I had a far easier life than she did.
You see MizBejabbers, poor people HATE affluent people because the latter have a life that they secretly desire although they are....IN DENIAL. The same applies to people from large/very large families. Just observe, people from large/very large families HATE those from small families. People from large/very large families love to say that people from small families are spoiled because they grew up in struggle & scarcity while people from small families grew up in more fortunate circumstances where cultural, educational, & socioeconomic opportunities abound.
To have everything you want would be BORING. CHALLENGE is a better word than "struggle". Climbing your way to the top would be much more satisfying than already being there with no effort.
Castlepaloma, EXACTLY. You are a SMART, INTELLIGENT person. Life shouldn't be about struggle & survival but having the best & thriving. Castlepaloma, there are PEOPLE who believe that PEOPLE SHOULD EXIST at THE LOWEST BASIC levels. Again, Castlepaloma, LCL & LFL at work.
You're absolutely right - whether we say challenge or struggle, the human animal needs it. As with everything in life it can be overdone, but we all need some struggle or we are no better than the amoeba aimlessly swimming around in the sea of life and accepting what comes our way.
AGAIN, WRONG! So you would rather be impoverished, living from hand to mouth? So you would rather living a barely subsistent life- if you can call it that? So you believe in living at the most abject level? I see.....hmmmm............
Unfortunately, I've seen this in the older generation in my own family. I also saw the children of people impoverished by the great depression claw their way back into middle-class society. One family, whom I would never name, were considered poor white trash (good old Southern term) They built up what had been a pitiful family subsistence into actual wealth. One of them married a granddaughter of the richest man in the area. I grew up in a small town where everybody knew everybody.
I welcome your INTELLIGENT, INSIGHTFUL input. I simply cannot comprehend how people glorify poverty & struggle. That is what I call inverse logic or more succinctly Luciferian inference, a phrase coined by the late Dr. David Hawkins, a psychiatrist who instituted consciousness calibrations.
How can people revel in struggle & poverty? This isn't normal at all. Intelligent, aware people want the best. They want to live at the highest level of human needs. They want to thrive, not merely survive. Again, the point has been proven about poor people & those who come from larger families which is a sub-category of poor people. They view abject struggle & deprivation as challenges which they deem quite normative, believing that everyone should have struggles & deprivations in life. This thinking is beyond insane & into Luciferian.
I was raised to value the better things of life. I was raised to be cultivated. I don't believe in struggle & scarcity. What is wrong with these people? People who glorify poverty & struggle, calling them challenges are inhumane, even brutish in my eyes.
From my observation & one of my Sociology professors, poor people are brutish because they were brought up in stark, harsh environments. Environments determine what people become. It was nice talking to you.Thank you. Let me come at this from another angle, also. Religion. Some of the Christian religions teach that it is wrong to be rich. Give away all your goods to the poor. Or sell your goods and give all your money to the poor (and be poor just like them). But then wouldn't that make you beholden to other people's generosity? There are many reasons why I left the church, but then I learned that spiritual teachings teach that abundance is the natural state: That abundance is nothing to be ashamed of. That all humans are entitled to abundance. Let me point out here that in those teachings abundance includes things other than wealth like family and friends, even a satisfying career that may not pay well, but it does include money, property, and other valuable possessions. It does not include taking from others to enrich oneself, or to live off others as in welfare. I don't know how big a role religion plays in holding people down and keeping them from reaping abundance, but I do know that it does affect some people. Having lived all my life in the South or the southwest, I have observed this. Have you looked into this?
MizBejabbers, you are very on target as usual. Sharp as a knife. Yes, religion indoctrinate people into believing that poverty is noble, even spiritually superior. Religion teaches that to be rich is somehow being worldly & that is so much better to be unworldly i.e. poor.
This is pure nonsense. There is nothing wrong w/being wealthy. Oh yes, there is the inane saying that money is the so-called root of all evil. There are so many negative inculcations about wealth & abundance. Most people don't believe such nonsense which is evidence by the rise of more affluent classes.
You can find nothing between abject, starvation level poverty and a life where everything is done for you, with servants to spoon your food into your mouth?
WRONG! NO IT ISN'T. Again, INVERSE LOGIC. One cannot reach the top without the proper resources. What you have presented is totally illogical in scope. People who born impoverished very seldom, if ever, reach the top. People who are born into environments where there are socioeconomic & educational resources, REACH THE TOP. Please use some intelligence & logic here!!!!
To reiterate, impoverished people seldom, if ever, succeed socioeconomically & educationally. Please face facts. Being born impoverished is a STIGMA a/k/a curse which one is doomed to. People born into the lower socioeconomic classes seldom, if ever, advance from those lower socioeconomic classes. They STAY in socioeconomic poverty & past that poverty into succedent generations.
Nowadays more than ever, children who are unfortunate enough to be impoverished are doomed, even damned into remaining in poverty. The lowest socioeconomic class that can reach the top is the solidly middle class or the middle middle class. Even people born into the solidly middle class have difficulty reaching the top socioeconomically & educationally, let alone people born into the lower socioeconomic classes.
Stop living in a fantasy world- face reality. A miniscule amount of impoverished people ever succeed socioeconomically & educationally. The poor to impoverished are different from the rest of society. They have their own culture which precludes them from socioeconomic & educational opportunities. In fact, the poor enjoy being poor. That is a fact of life. They don't want better.
Solidly middle, upper middle, & upper class parents have the tools to ensure their children's socioeconomic & educational advancement & success. Poor to impoverished parents have NONE of these- they have NOTHING TO OFFER their children, they are mindlessly breed children like lower life forms, not caring one iota for their children's socioeconomic or educational welfare.My parents had ADVICE to offer us. Go to college, get a great job, and you will succeed. And it worked for two out of five poor girls. I could have done the same, but chose a different path, that I do not regret,as my path was to be a spiritual one.
I always love your questions, gm.
From my observations it is, more often than not, two parts; those two parts are:
1. A coping mechanism for their poor choices leading them into a life of struggle.
2. Pride based in age-old tales of great struggle, ignorant of the harsh truths behind them (brainwashing).
Though I suppose we could call both of those parts one and the same, I like to think pride and the coping mechanism can and often do exist separately.Thank you Kyler. Yes, the lower socioeconomic classes a/k/a the poor are in denial or are they in denial. It is apparent to me that the poor love being poor. Yes, they have been inculcated into loving being poor by their family & those in their environment. Also, they have been indoctrinated that it is so good to be poor by religion.
The poor are vastly different from you & I. The poor have a struggle & scarcity mindset. They exist at the most primitive level. I am talking about the American poor. They see struggle & scarcity as quite normative, in fact, they view such things as a valid lifestyle. If you observe poor people, they have a hatred for those who come from more affluent backgrounds who didn't have to struggle. Another group of people who have this same toxic outlook are people from large/very large families. They are of the school that poverty, struggle, & scarcity are good.
Naturally, I believe we humans prefer an easy life, whether we admit it or not. Neuroscience study have actually proven that we are hard-wired to follow the path of least resistance. However, along the way the environment and nurturing element can introduce values and beliefs that encourage opposing merits. Generally, we are all different and our starting points vary greatly; few are born privileged while others have to earn it.
In certain circumstances, people have no choice but to struggle and work hard to make it, while others get it easy. Thus, it truly depends on the condition and mindset that one has. For some, they may believe that struggle and suffering is necessary to get what they want and it makes the accomplishment much sweeter. That is why there are people who advocate work hard, while others endorse working smart. So, it really depends on the individual themselves and whether they can afford to have it easy or work for it.
In the case of the minority that perhaps derides those with abundance, they are entitled to feel superior because they know the effort they put in to get what they want. Nonetheless, it would still be unfair to compare and judge those that have it easy unless we know their backstory or it is indeed their destiny to live an abundant life.Charles, such intelligent analysis. Yes, there are those who envy the affluent. Nothing is wrong with having abundance. Charles, it is always the poor who deride the wealthy. The poor are of the school that struggle is de rigueur & those who didn't struggle are somehow lacking. Not everyone struggles in life. In fact, humans were meant to have abundance. No one was meant to be poor & suffering. To believe that one must consistently struggle & be poor is inverse logic or as the late Dr. Hawkins refers to as Luciferian inference. Yes, there are people who vehemently believe that struggle is good while having abundance is bad, even evil. Poor people teach their children that it is good, even noble to be poor & struggling. That is the mindset of the poor. The poor hate the wealthy because the latter have a more easier life while they don't.
I saw where someone commented that it would be a certain class of people; and at first I took it the wrong way. I thought about it and I think that what she meant is that how a class of people in a socio-economic standpoint values and feels about the environment around them affects their behavior. A higher status socio-economic status sees struggle as almost taboo. They look down on those that seem to live a live of struggle to the point it would seem normative. Those that are in a poorer socio-economic status may also believe struggle is normative but are more likely to value the struggle and make them grow into strong individuals; and that is how a lot of them go up in life. Than you have to categorize what kind of struggle you are talking about. Both socioeconomic classes are going to define struggle to different extents.
I believe that the post stating that they glorify struggle and don’t want a life beyond it is a very blanket statement. However; you have a point that there is a mentality amongst all different class of people that may glorify struggle. It has manifested out of the rise of workaholicism and a generation of entrepreneurs just as much as you can attach that mentality to those in poverty that live a life of struggle and judge those that “have it easy.” So this is why I say its a blanket statement because it can go in many different directions.
It isn’t a sign of mental illness within itself. It would have to manifest within confines of certain thoughts and behaviors over a course of time frames that fit specific diagnostic criteria.
Glorification of poverty seems to be undefined in its entirety but mentioned a lot. It isn’t that they glorify poverty; it is that they place values on other things like family, relationships, religion. Teaching children those values is important and in poverty level homes those families all rely on each other to are ends meet, raise children, keep children on the track to getting out and doing something with their lives and not ending up stuck in poverty as well. What you see as glorifying; you may be over looking that they are being positive in a negative situation. That they place values other places that assist them in building happy lives together despite the poverty.
Those that have money look down on others because they never got out of poverty. Working what they believe as dead end jobs. If you look at family structures however, you will see that poor families have stronger bonds and spend more quality time together that those that are wealthy. Children being raised by nanny’s versus children being raised by extended family.
However; there are definitely those that seem to not be happy no matter what and make a struggle out of everything and that I have seen across class. My husband always has to seem to find something to make him mad, to complain about, and it could be so dumb and small as someone is using one of his screens on Netflix and its preventing him from watching a movie. This could be a mental illness sign in others but also could be that they enjoy living in self-pity and blaming others and causing issues; because they don’t have to take any responsibility on their own happiness, success, or outcomes of their own struggles.
What you posted is very much a great discussion to put out there. However, in the way I think, it is only one very small percentage of indivduals and isn’t exploring any other aspects. The idea that they pass this down to their children is very accurate IF they are in that specific logic you are speaking of. However, there for instance myself. Grew up both poor and rich. I got to experience a lot of things most have not and I have on the surface lived a privelaged life. But I haven’t. I was also in poverty, grew up at time near gangs, and drive by shootings. I wasn’t taught by my rich father how to deal with collections. With difficult people. Or how to make the right choices. I was always told “just do it”. Without a why behind the why; I wasn’t able to make good choices and my life’s been full of so much struggle that even a psychologist of mine was beyond shocked. I still struggle. But I don’t glorify it or pass it to my kids or look down on rich or poor people. I find that my struggles made me a better person that I was when I was privelaged. It’s made me resilient and able to get out of another rock bottom and be even better than before. I can say I do feel that I will always struggle but I am not defining it on my success as I am very successful depending on what you value as success. I turn those struggles into positive and I focus on what the negative has produced....that one positive.
So I feel that to really understand your topic, it would encompass a lot more than just the glorification of struggle and wanting to stay in that struggle. However, I haven’t studied that topic specifically however I have 20 years of extensive higher education encompassing human behavior and mental illness and socioeconomic class systems and its affect on the overall personality of an individual etc. In studies done they DO find a correlation of what you are speaking of but also many of my points.
Anyway, thank you for getting me to think this morning lolWhat you have presented is a Pollyannaish view of the subject. Poor people do have a toxic view of achievement & success. Such things are anathemas to poor people. Poor people believe in the immediate, the future doesn't count to them. There is the culture of poverty- yes, poverty is a culture in addition to being a socioeconomic class.
No, poor families aren't stronger than wealthy families. That is what you wish to believe but reality is far more different & darker. In poor families, stress levels are higher because of the difficulties of making ends meet. There is a high incidence of abuse in poor families. Children in poor families are brutalized. They also must work to supplement family income, forfeiting their future educational opportunities. Please grow up & stop living in FANTASYLAND.
What you forget to realize is MONEY is the MOST IMPORTANT thing in society. Intelligent people know this. You mentioned that there "are things far more important"- really. Money is the most important thing in society. It pays the bills, put a roof over one's head, put food on the table, & provide a life beyond the primitive rudiments. I realized this as a young preteen; however, you are extra grown & don't realize this.
What I am stating is REALITY. Money is the most important thing. Wealthy/affluent people realize this. Yes, wealthy families are the strongest families. I detect envy from you. Wealthy families are loving families-they care about their children. Poor people could care less about their children. The poor view their children as barely tolerable at best & burdens at worst. The highest incidence of abuse are in poor households. Yes, poor people have a poverty mindset of scarcity. In essence, poor people LOVE being poor. They also teach their children not to advance themselves but to be poor like they are. Please get real. I am right & you are WRONG.
You have a right to your opinion. I did see where your point was coming from and didn’t deny that it was a factor in your discussion at all. I simply brought other ideas to the table and discussed why your view didn’t encompass a whole’ but that which fit into your ideas. Being able to step outside your own view and see from many perspectives is hardly a Pollyanish view lol. I was giving you personal observations. It is apparent that you aren’t open to exploring a different viewpoint in order to get all perspectives.
Money is a necessity. Our basic and fundamental human needs need to be met and to eat, have shelter and clothing etc. money has to be an aspect of our lives in some capacity. The ideal is the more money you have, the less that you need to worry about. And to the point of struggle it relieves people from the constraints and stress of the making ends meet life. Again, I don’t argue that. Struggle is a relative term and can have varying meanings but in the confines of your argument, you are correct.
How Does Economic Status Affect Addiction?
WHO defines addiction as the repeated usage of a psychoactive drug or substances to the point that the patient (attributed to as an addict) is periodically or permanently high, experiences an urge to take the desired substance (or substances), has considerable difficulty willingly ceasing or altering substance use, and has a strong desire to procure psychoactive substances by almost any way. The amount of money you have or the economic status you belong too has a very low impact on your propensity for addiction. These myths arise because drug abuse is more prevalent among people who live in so much poverty or have a lower socioeconomic status; nevertheless, the two are not causally related, and this does not demonstrate the cause and the effect.
Popular Related Tie Between Substance Abuse and Economic Status are:
Level of Education
Abuse and Neglect
Genetics
State of one’s Mental Health
Individual’s Race
Parental Drug and Alcohol Use
Level of Economic Status: Wealth vs. Poverty
It’s not that a rich person on the upper economic status can not suffer these exact same kind of traumas; it is just that there is a lesser tendency for that to happen in non-poverty households. In other words, the many risk factors that may lead people to drug addiction and abuse are more common in households on the lower economic status and areas than areas and families on the high economic status.
The amount of education an individual has is significantly connected to their substance abuse propensity. Research conducted in 2004 discovered that there was a correlation between one’s educational level and drug abuse. One’s level of education is greatly affected by their economic status. According to the report, those with the lowest levels of education were found to be heavy smokers, heavy drinkers, and inactive on a regular basis. In addition, almost half of those in opioid or alcohol abuse care never went to school or graduated high school, as found in the research.
When we look at the entire poor class versus the rich your statistics are correct that everything is higher in poor communities. I b
Just broke up one view you had given. When you study aspects of other ideas such as forming a theory on the affect of drug use one high school kids and the prediction of the result.You’d say the poor kids got addicted and had a higher risk simply because of their circumstances. I would predict that rich kids closer to graduating high school and come from affluent families are going to be under more pressure, have extreme high standards and expectations that have psychological affects on the kids. Due to the flow of ash they have access to quality drugs and a steady supply and they are more prone to hid the drug use.
After I developed that theory I did some research in peer reviewed journals and studies done that specifically looked at socioeconomic and age of kids and their psychological stressors. Here is what I found.
Teens who attend high-achieving schools in well-to-do communities may be more vulnerable to drug and alcohol problems than their less well-off peers, a new study from the Northeast U.S. suggests.
Researchers found that by age 26, upper-middle-class young adults' lifetime chances of being diagnosed with an addiction to drugs or alcohol were two to three times higher, on average, than the national rates for men and women of the same age. The findings were published online today (May 31) in the journal Development and Psychopathology.
These are alarming rates of addictions to drugs and alcohol for young adults, said lead study author Suniya Luthar, a professor of psychology at Arizona State University in Tempe. [The Drug Talk: 7 New Tips for Today’s Paren
When I stated that there are more important things in life to experience, learn, and believe, is accurate. I w
You brought up a great point where there are many reasons that would give validity to your arguement.
I stand behind the view that the more money you have you forget what’s really important in life and that’s love, that’s empathy, giving to others, family, and more. The fact that kids going into elite schools and going into careers they are forced to and to live up to standards of society, this becomes damaging psychologically, they are more apt to hide sexual abuse, drug abuse, and have high risks of suicide.
They have struggles as well and rich people just hide it from everyone. If you don’t confront something and pretend it isn’t there that’s as bad as wanting to live a life of struggle. Ignoring it actually is worse as it becomes an intentional ignorance of the struggle thus, wanting to live it.
As for your personal jobs. I have no reason at all to be jealous of anyone. I have learned to always think wiring bias about others viewpoints and the reasons they feel that way. I don’t sit and develop a viewpoint and it’s narrow minded. Even when I know I am correct, I engage and ask questions and observe. Staying open minded and willing to see every angle is what makes a person intelligent and also brings in the morals and values As a human being. I’m sorry if you can’t appreciate my view or that I on,y was saying from the get go that your opinion is too blanket, doesn’t have enough evidentiary support, you have not considered any others ideas and you resorted to name calling because I challenged you with other points of view.
You are right after all, when you come from family that can afford good but you were denied great you do lose out on other opportunities that people who have prestigious families and they are able to attend private liberal arts colleges that tuition assistance is not enough. The curriculum is on a difficulty level that students attending UCSD may not even be able to get through without struggle. Best part is they are given the tools that make you intelligent in several ways, instead of one view and no tolerance for ideas of others, they are taught and encouraged and its a part of most curriculum that intellectual conversations involve exactly what I was doing. To be in a class with the people and have such a wide variety of classes that were mandatory to explore outside your field of study, creates this well rounded and open minded and intelligent and tolerant person.
It truly was a great education and fee education for me at that and not because I was some kid with a freebie grant. Prestigious isn’t me only because I don’t care to live sticking noses up at people but my family’s prominent members of our community and our last name has added value and it’s a big deal my dad doesn’t want me to tarnish. Just because you think based on one time sharing with. You that you had a correct judgement and you didn’t. My fathers and uncles grew up ashamed of who they were, their father an alcoholic and abusing and their mom gets away but now works long days and nights all week in a factory and never home. They hardly had anything to eat.
They only knew struggle and they thought that’s all their was and they didn’t care the family name was well hated and judged and almost spit on when he was a kid. They didn’t want to live that struggle. They didn’t ask for that environment and they didn’t have anyone setting higher expectations because their mom in all honesty wasn’t very bright and she was not encouraging them to do anything but what any of them did.
All four worked their way thru college and they got great careers and they all made a ton of money and raised privileged assholes that have a narrow mind like you and didn’t earn that life they were give it. So yes you are wrong on many levels and it’s too bad you weren’t able to put your cockiness and arrogance aside and share ideas. Hence why I have zero reasons to be jealous. Oh and I make my own money and really good money and I have a incredible higher education and I have traveled and thus cultured and lived in military officer life and my movie industry family as well. So, just because I struggled and at one point gave up I decided to study what happens on all levels growing up poor.
At least I don’t belittle people.Your point was eloquently stated. I wholeheartedly apologize for my misunderstanding.
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