For The Anti-Relativists
Firstly, we look at Special Relativity and it's postulates. I would welcome any anti-relativists, (you know who you are) to refute the postulates as they see fit. Please remember to use mathematics where required in your proofs.
1. The Principle of Relativity:
The laws of physics are the same in all inertial frames of reference.
2. The Constancy of Speed of Light in Vacuum:
The speed of light in vacuum has the same value c in all inertial frames of reference.Here you go. The maths already been done:
U=mV < c^2 or EPIC FAIL!
< 1.616252(81)×10^-35 EPIC FAIL!
Where's your math to prove otherwise?Well, the troll is here right on time with nothing to add as usual but troll bait.
No need to resort to name calling. A simple I don't have anything to refute the math will suffice.
You didn't put anything there that had anything to do with the question, hence it is nothing but troll bait, as usual.
Sorry, the consistency , or lack there of for Minaswki Space time, and the transition value of gravitational potential energy from Special to General Relativity has nothing to do with the original question.
But, actually, I could see where it might cause a little confusion because I didn't include the metric tensor.Good for you. Will you attempt to refute the postulates now or go on with your trolling?
No, theories are not personal postulates. Please try to understand how science works before making spurious comments.
"refute the postulates"
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Very easily. General Relativity claims that space is warped. That's all of what GR is about. That's how Einstein 'explained' gravity: the geometry of space. Here is GR in a nutshell...
Hoever, space is not a physical object. Space is 'that which has no shape'. We're done! You can talk about a banana being warped or about warping a hammock. These are physical objects. You can't warp 'nothing' any more than you can warp love or justice or other concepts. A relativist is an individual who has never learned the difference between an object and a concept.
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"Please remember to use mathematics where required in your proofs"
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In Science, specifically in Physics, we don't use Math and we certainly don't prove anything. In Science, we just explain.
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"inertial frames of reference"
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Opinions are off limits in Science. Testimony is a part of Law and of religion, not a part of Science. What the drunk mathematician believes he saw or measured and the conclusions he draws are of no concern to Physics. It may be to psychiatry, though!
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"The speed of light in vacuum has the same value c"
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'IN' a vacuum???
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Since when is 'the' vacuum an ocean you can swim through like a fish?
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But the funny part is that relativists invented wormholes to circumvent the Universe's speed 'limit' and tell you that if one photon travels away from another while space expands in between, then all bets are off on little c. It would be nice if relativists could at least get their story straight on the speed of light once and for all.Uh, this thread is not about General Relativity. Funny how you even quoted the OP without reading it.
That's your refutation?
This can't be you, can it Bill? Are we in the presence of the notorious Bill Gaede?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gaede
"Intel terminated Gaede’s employment in June 1994.[25] However, before Gaede was fired, he managed to film the entire Pentium process database from his home, ironically, using a terminal provided by Intel. He placed a camera and filmed the specs as they rolled on the screen. Shortly after, Gaede fled to South America and began to peddle the technology through the embassies of China and Iran.
Charges against him:
1. National Stolen Property Act – US Code Title 18 Section 2314
2. Mail Fraud – US Code Title 18 Section 1341"Nope.
Ah, so you deny mountains of hard evidence.
In other words, Bill, if you don't understand it, it must be wrong.
That's merely the standard equation for any wave. So what?
speed = distance / time
Instead of the speed of light for c, you can put any speed you wish.
Actually, the frequency is inversely proportional to the wavelength, higher frequencies, shorter wavelengths, lower frequencies, longer wavelengths.
We can easily see this in the difference between microwaves and radio waves.
That's the first sensible thing you've said thus far.Would that be a manila hemp, hemp, linen, cotton, coir, jute, sisal, polypropylene, nylon, or polyester rope.
Hilarious crackpot site!
"I believe that all mathematical physicists should be hanged
from the highest trees and telephone poles available."
It is my understanding that quantum physics tosses item one out the window…
Sorry.Don't be sorry, just explain the claim. How does that field theory refute the first postulate of relativity, exactly?
My favorite recollection of something I read is as follows:
Something to do with Tau…
A “source particle” spinning left.
A “mate particle” also spinning left.
The mate particle is relocated to somewhere (anywhere) else.
The source particle is induced to spin right.
The mate particle immediately does the same.
What’s up with that?Can't you tell me? That doesn't really look like a refutation of the first postulate. Please explain how that works?
My post was an inquiry, not a refutation.
I’d really like to know.There is a problem of information moving faster than light speeds. The particles in your example do not carry information from one to the other faster than c.
The first postulate states that "The laws of physics are the same in all inertial frames of reference."
Note that I bolded the word inertial in that this is what makes Special Relativity "special" in that it is a subset of General Relativity dealing only with objects that are moving at constant speeds relative to each other or the "fixed stars" which we use as the coordinate system.
If, for example, we wanted to use your particle example, we can assume that the same physics that governs one particle will govern the other, if they are moving at constant speeds relative to each other.Works for me.
- this is so funny...
- jomineposted 13 years ago
0You can take your time, it's sleeping time here(12.08 am) goodnight or may be for you good morning!!
I noticed that you did not address the OP in any way. We can look at your questions later if you want or in another thread. Please refute the postulates, if you can.
In other words, you have no refutation for the postulates of SR. Just say so rather than going on about something else.
The postulates are that of Special Relativity and the OP is for anyone who is interested in attempting to refute the postulates. Is this not simple to understand or do I need to use smaller words?
We can answer your questions in another thread if you like, but again, I repeat, this thread is for refuting the postulates of SR.
And, since you've made it clear you're an anti-relativist, please do so if you can.
Again, if you're unable to refute the postulates, just say so. There is no need to derail the thread with something else entirely.
The speed of light is not constant. if you travel along with light with reference to you there is no speed, light will be stationary.
"The Constancy of Speed of Light in Vacuum"
Speed of light- meters/sec(What is Meter and Time???)
The metre is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second(Essentially circular.)
So by definition it is constant (and not that it is constant for any observer), A postulates that is simply made and thought to be true!!
edit. miscue. Yes! We do exist.
Yes! Thank you!
Black holes don't really apply as they do not yield inertial reference frames at the event horizon or beyond, hence they fall under the guidelines of General Relativity.
However, from an inertial reference frame far away from the Black hole, we can measure that light will remain invariant, even upon moving past the event horizon. It may shift to the blue spectrum once it begins it's decent into the gravity well of the BH, but it will not increase or decrease in velocity.Really? I have never heard of that problem before, although they have solved other problems such as phase shifting and ionosphere delays, but I never heard of the blue-shifting of the frequency to be an issue.
My understanding is that the corrections are due to the gravitational effect between the clocks on earth and the clocks in the satellite, both at different positions within earths gravity well.
Have you got something on the blue-shifting problem I can read?
If I read that right, are you saying time dilation shifts the orbit of the planet, or is it our observations of the orbit are shifted somehow?
No, the first postulate states that mechanics hold true iff co-ordinates or the derivative of original coordinates have UNIFORM TRANSLATION to the original. Additionally, the equivalence of the two coordinates do not extend to non uniform motion of co-ordinates to the original. At least, that's what Mr. Einstein thought, which didn't include the philosophy of should be/maybe maybe not Mr. Beelzedad.
I won't even get into the second, because your first is such a disaster.No, just any other coordinate system moving in uniform translation relative to the original.
Yes, I do understand your need to constantly toss ad homs into the argument, it's the trolling thang to do.
So, I think it's time to say bye, now, as I don't need to respond to your nonsense. Bye troll.I stated the derivative, or do you not know what a derivative is in mathematics? How can translation be perceived without motion?
I've lost track of how many times you've re-stated the last comment. Is it your signature line, so you don't need to type it any more?
- jomineposted 13 years ago0
Quantum Gravity you say? Looks like relativity crumbles again.
Who says I have given up?
If you have to "hang on the the coat-tails somewhat to keep up" who are you to judge what I understand?
Relativity is a tool, to view it as a be all, end all, is irresponsible. Every Theory "is a theory very much in the making" It never stops. The tools are used to move forward.
Don't give up:
http://arxiv.org/find/gr-qc/1/au:+Rovel … /0/all/0/1Apology accepted. You are 100% correct, "Nobody fully understands this stuff", so you are beyond safe. IMO, you shouldn't hold a grudge, even if you come across the person you'd "clashed with earlier" Then, as you already know, your posts will be written with haste. To somewhat (but not really) stay in compliance with the thread, the comments read here are subjective to the readers mental frame of reference.
That's all you'll ever see from him. No matter how much I've been patient in trying to get him to explain himself, he refuses to do so. Most likely, he is unable to do so. I have found it best to not feed the trolls.
- jomineposted 13 years ago0
Refutation? Where? I saw no paper supporting your claim. Allow me to produce it for you so you may point out exactly where in the paper they refute SR.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/100 … 4061v1.pdfNot in the least, I have no idea what you're talking about. I see broken up sentences strung together in a word salad. Sorry.
Yes, I do understand science might be incoherent or irreconcilable to the religious believer, but that doesn't mean science hasn't brought you everything you have today.
Did your religion bring you the internet? Your computer? How about these forums that write your posts?
Or, would you rather live in a cave without science?wow, i see how you mind works. It really zooms in on the statements that actually make sense to you.
Please explain the non-existence of a deity of divine nature of which creates all information based existence of life forms.
Irreducible complexity.
DNA - Not a single chance, as it is expressly stated identical to digital.
Darwin's Black Box might be a good place to begin your research for an attempt.
Or you could simply tell me to 'start my own thread' if the challenge is too difficile.
I absolutely love science.
It's a relief I'm not the only one who saw the irony in his response to your original statement.
The flaw in that paper is obvious.
The good college student, Kaizhe Guo, makes a valiant attempt to show (on paper) that an electric doublet moving along a perpendicular axis will not show the same results as a stationary doublet. What he fails to consider, is that when calculating the electric field, the lines MUST be done so independently and treated separately, and cannot be calculated as rotational velocities around the center of rotation of the doublet, but instead MUST instead be calculated using the linear velocities of the electric doublets dipoles. That is why he is getting different results between the moving and stationary doublets.
Hope this helps to clarify the paper.Michelson-Morley
Muons.
GPS.
Particle accelerators.
Cyclotrons.
You can even conduct an experiment to confirm relativity with your microwave oven and some marshmallows.
Mountains and mountains of hard evidence resulting in over 100 years of experimentation support Relativity.
Where are the results from Kaizhe Guo? Nada. Zilch. Nothing.Of course not, the speed of light has been known for some time and has been measure quite accurately. In fact, James Bradley came very close with his measurements in 1728 and almost dead on by 1862 with Leon Foucault.
It was the Michelson/Morley experiment that started the ball rolling when it produced Null Results when attempting to test an aether. However, it showed that light was a constant and not variable at all.
Mathematics isn't shrugging off anything. That is a strawman fallacy. And, quantum physics does not violate Special Relativity.
Again, strawman fallacy. There is no speculation on the speed of light.
No worries at all. I can't help it if those others have no clue what they're talking about and feel compelled to insult me as a result. But, that is usually the case with most crackpots and cranks.
So, would you be so kind as to show us your independent calculation of the Electric field, using the linear velocity of doublet dipoles to compare results?
Ah, I see now. Your motive has been revealed.
You had me fooled for a while in that I was under the impression you were honestly attempting refutation. But, it was all just a charade. Oh well,
I have no data or experimental results in which to do such a calculation. But, I suspect you just want to troll again, anyways.
Nope, just wanted to see whether or not you planned to back up your claim. Evidently not, just more Philosophy.........
the fact that you posted this topic shows you do not understand the entire landscape of current physics. you're the one with all the backward topics, figure it out first.
There are all kinds of websites selling those things. I would like to see one in action.
One of the problems is that people confuse these generators with "perpetual machines" which is something entirely different.
Hmm... I don't think they let me send links back in time. But the title of the article is:
BEAM SMASHES LIGHT BARRIER... MEANING....light can travel faster than the C
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2810 here's another one.
and here's one from ABC News:
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story? … amp;page=1
was it broken, was it not? who knows...definitely not you though. You're still talking highschool science in the 50sYes, I understand you get your information from pop sci sites, Youtube and newspaper articles.
Keep on trolling, it's what you do best.yes laughing will definitely make you look like penrose never happened.
This is quite typical of the crackpots and cranks that attempt to refute theories in which they have no idea are about. They google the internet and place links up that have absolutely nothing in them that refutes the theory. Pointing this out to them has as much effect as pointing out evolution to religionists.sure...google entanglement and maybe you'll get a clue.
go back to your day job, you actually shine in religion forums. (he who has only ever quoted wiki)
Thanks for validating my previous post.
Entanglement has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of light. So once again, you provide nothing that refutes the postulates of SR. Just a lot of hand waving on your part.
Cor, I wish I knew what you lot were talking about. Sounds amazing! Quite sexy actually...
It is thought that if there is a quantum gravity wave/particle that fits with the Standard Model, it would be massless and hence would move at the speed of light. In other words, gravity is not instantaneous, it has a speed of propagation just like photons.
I'm sorry that you don't agree with the facts or the postulates of SR.
You are free to research mountains of measured outcomes of relativity.
I have already pointed out the flaws in the papers you provided and DID NOT point to mantra, please stop fabricating stories.
Time does slow down relative to the observer, yes.
You have provided one single paper in which a single observation was made. The authors themselves even admitted this was insufficient data in which to make a proper assessment and admitted it could not take into account anything that may have affected the measurements.
Handwaving and fallacies are strong in that statement.
I'm glad you have strong beliefs in scientific theories, the rest of us have strong understandings.
Sure, blame your inconsistencies on religion. Your philosophy is transparent, we can all see right through it. Making scientific claims with no substantial evidence to support, and then backtrack with blame. Yes, very sad, indeed.
- We? As in "we" trolls?
Oh yes, I understand SR has no substantial evidence to crackpots, I get that. That's why you have yet to understand it.
Are you done trolling yet or is there more to come?Nope, we as in everyone who reads through this thread. It is you who fails to understand, which is apparent by your lack of evidence (even more so by admission) to support your inaccurate claims.
I haven't fabricated any lies or "trolling", but if continuously stating that makes you feel better keep it up.
You stated:
"And, I'll just continue to ignore your trolling."
Obviously not adhering to that, would you classify it as another inaccurate statement, or a lie?Thanks for destroying yet another thread here. Learning and understanding get another kick in the head. Well done.
You maliciously attack people with blanket statements, and resort to name calling, yet I am responsible for destroying the thread?
Again with the blame, will you ever take responsibility for your actions?
"And, I'll just continue to ignore your trolling."
Obviously not adhering to that, would you classify it as another inaccurate statement, or a lie?
Hmm, I gotta call irrational on that stuff. It's all a bit surreal & suspicious for my tastes. I think mathematicians try to do physics (i.e. explain our cosmos using physical objects) but basically "reify" all this VERY abstract descriptive/predictive stuff (i.e. convert numerical concepts into pseudo-objects) in order to pretend they're doing science. Hence how we end up with such strangeness. I expect one day we'll look back on current MathPhys (space-time, wormholes, 0d particles, strings, hyper-dimensions, etc) in the same way we look back at Ptolemaic pseudo-science and laugh at how silly (if strangely brilliant) they were! Just my 2c, I'm only an amateur scientist looking on at the state-funded big boys with their big toys...
Great hub! Great Qs!
There we go. Submitted.
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