Would any teachers/parents care to discuss this?

1. 86

   IzzyMposted 12 years ago

   http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … rents.html
   
   Please read this article, and discuss.
   
   My own thoughts are all over the place at the minute, because I can see both sides, but at least my kids were continent before they started school.

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2. 80

   Aficionadaposted 12 years ago

   I am dumbfounded by this article.
   
   I know that there can be problems with trying to push children to grow up too soon, but there is such a thing as "age-appropriate" behavior and skills.  What is happening and what will this mean for Great Britain in the future?  The behaviors described actually do sound (to me) like some degrees of mental illness.  I don't mean to paint all of them with too broad a stroke, but it seems to me that that has to be considered.
   
   IzzyM, you said you can see both sides of this.  I'm having trouble seeing a positive side to this.  Can you help me out?

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   1. 86

      IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I, too, am having problems with this whole issue.
      
      I wasn't a stay-at-home mum myself, all my life, but I was there to take my children to and from nursery,  before they reached school age.
      
      In the UK, nursery education starts at 3, primary at 5.
      
      Kids were expected to be out of nappies at 3, but no big deal so long as they were out of them by 5.
      
      What really gets me, is that I never understood totally why, when and how a child becomes nappy-free.
      
      I have six children, so I think my input is worthwhile listening to.
      
      In my experience, a child become nappy free when they want to, but that usually occurs somewhere near their 3rd birthday.
      
      I have read that modern day nappies make a child feel so free and dry, that 'accidents' aren't noticed.
      
      I was told my child should be dry by 3. They had those "your toddler always feel dry" nappies then.
      
      I took them off, put them in normal pants, which when they 'have an accident' makes them feel cold.
      
      They don't like feeling cold. None of us do.
      
      They are less likely to pee them in future.
      
      Then again, as parents we only put our children in pants when they are the appropriate age to know the difference.
      
      That age is fast approaching 3.
      
      Which seems nothing now, but is. Children come out of nappies when the time is right for them. But we need to show them first. They are naturally incontinent.
      
      I have never toilet-trained a child in my life, but all of my kids were continent from an early age.
      
      The daily Mail article suggested those children were from well-to-do, both parents working families.
      
      Nothing wrong with that, but.........

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      1. 80

         Aficionadaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I see what you mean now (about seeing both sides). In my words - my paraphrase - it may not be entirely the parents' fault if the child is not toilet-trained; there may be very good reasons why someone else should/could/would take on the task, and one aspect of the issue is the newer, drier diapers/nappies, which should be replaced when the child is ready.
         
         And I agree with that. I know that there are certain things that I hope my children have learned from other adults, because I know they didn't learn them from me.
         
         The worry for me here is that the article paints a picture of parents who don't seem to know what is good and healthy for their children or even to care whether their children are developing well and appropriately. But, as you and others have indicated, that kind of exaggeration could simply be the rag's way of trying to sell copy.

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3. 87

   cardeleanposted 12 years ago

   Well I have about five thousand things going through my head, the first of which is Whew...it's not just the US!  On a more serious note though I think that it's absolutely disgusting and I do not think that would be tolerated by teachers here.  We do however have MANY examples of parental neglect and it greatly impacts student learning.  I personally am very tired of teachers being demonized and judged on "test scores" when the most formative years are birth to age five (research has proven this time and again.)  We do not receive our young people until age five.  Unfortunately there are many missed opportunities for learning that can never be recreated if parents are not actively involved in raising their children. 
   
   It is not easy being a working parent and it is not easy being a "stay at home" parent.  But the bottom line is that when you became a parent, you made a commitment to be there for that child and that includes his or her education.  It is not just the teacher's job.  I am a teacher and I have a 3 and just turned 5 year old.  My own children know more than some of my fourth grade students, why?  Because I interact with my children at home and have since birth.  I do not sit down with my children and formally "teach" them, we learn through play and conversation.  This first five years of their lives are critical for their future development.
   
   It is a sad state of affairs to know that we are failing our youth on a global level.  The education of our youth must be a joint effort and not just on the teacher.  I hope that society wakes up before it is too late.

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4. 74

   Diane Insideposted 12 years ago

   It seems hard to believe, especially since most children start wanting to test their independence by the time they are three years old.  My own niece was potty trained by two and she could dress herself as well.  And as far as a bottle she was over it by 8 months.  She was eager to become independent.  But by the same token, her brother older than her age seven now still wants someelse to clean him when he has a bowel movement because he says he cant do it good enough and he feels dirty.
   
   So I dont know what to make of it. 
   
   I personally think my nephews mom needs to make him do it himself and he will eventually learn to clean himself to his satisfaction. 
   
   But I remember a little boy when I was in school who still wore diapers in kindergarten and the teacher put a stop to it pretty quick.  She instructed to mother to put underwear on him and she would deal with any accidents. Eventually he did not want to wet himself in front of the other children and trained himself to wait and go to the bathroom.
   
   It seems like laziness on the parents part but also laziness on the childs part because he knows someone else will deal with it.

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5. 76

   Shanna11posted 12 years ago

   I find that so sad... are the parents not involved in the lives of their children at all?!
   
   When I started kindergarten at the age of four (late birthday) I was already a decently proficient reader, knew basic math and more- of course, it was only because my mother sat down with me every day and read with me. I spent each morning during the summers studying English, math, problem solving and more. I hated it at the time, but I'm so glad my mother made me do it, and you can bet I'll make my kids do it!
   
   I just don't understand why the parents of these poor children do not care to see them succeed or get ahead in life?

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   1. 87

      cardeleanposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Unfortunately I see it every day in my job.  It is very sad.  As I say on a regular basis, politicians may want to judge me on how well my students do on standardized tests but until they carry my last name, I cannot take full responsibility.  If they come to school  already very much behind in their learning then I can only do so much.  They will continue to be behind because they started out that way.  There is only so much that a teacher of 30+ students can do during a day, additional work needs to be done at home.  Well and there in lies the problem because isn't that how we got here in the first place?

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6. 85

   rebekahELLEposted 12 years ago

   I think the saddest part of the article is the comment the teacher made about these issues being commonplace throughout the country. I don't understand how these children come from affluent families and lack basic skills. I almost have a hard time believing some of what was written.  My profession is in the early childhood field and I've never seen a 5 year old in a diaper, or one that didn't know how to open a book.
   
   The first 3 years of life are the most critical in relation to brain development, especially the first year of life. During the 3rd year, a child's brain is like a sponge and most children are very eager to learn, discover and explore. They are also ready to understand more that they live in a social world and need to learn basic social skills.
   
   While we have issues here in our schools, I have to say that I haven't experienced anything close to what this article states is common in the UK.  Very, very sad and alarming.  I would have liked to see some comments from the parents that they are referring to. What do they say?
   
   I have numerous hubs on the subject of early childhood if anyone is interested. I am also a parent. I know it's not always easy, but much of what this article states is nothing less than negligence and selfishness. I feel so sorry for the children.

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7. 86

   IzzyMposted 12 years ago

   As a little aside, I am going to inform everyone that that Daily Mail is seen as the gutter press.
   
   Now the gutter press existed to appeal to the wider masses, to sensationalise stories, to appeal to the wider masses.
   
   But under UK law, what they publish has to be true. They may well have exacerbated the truth.
   
   I too, would like to hear from someone here with children in the age-group 5 to 8, what are their thoughts?

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   1. 93

      Gordon Hamiltonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      In whose eyes, Izzy, re the Daily Mail? In mine, Britain and the USA deserve all they have received for the "BLEEPS" they have elected to their highest offices. So sad (heartbreaking) for the children - hope they grow up to blame and hate their parents for voting for these people. Vote in socialist "individuals" (All Principal Parties in UK these Days or Democrat in USA) and you suffer from the result of the disease's policies. Simple! It sticks in my throat that old Joe Stalin is down below tending to Old Nick's toenails and rubbing his hands together in glee, thinking, "I knew I'd get them!"

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8. 86

   IzzyMposted 12 years ago

   In everyone who can think for themselves eyes, no matter their political persuasion, they will come to the right answer.
   
   It is a sad fact of life that the majority of the people are thick.
   
   Most people believe what they read in the newspapers, and their political opinion is based round what they read.
   
   So they read some story, and get told "this wouldn't happen under a Labour Government" and later vote accordingly.
   
   Or their paper might say "This wouldn't happen under a Tory Government".
   
   Newspapers are critical in swaying beliefs.
   
   The power these people have is almost unbelievable.
   
   I welcome an open internet
   
   But it is going to leave a LOT of confused people, confused.

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   1. 93

      Jean Bakulaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Izzy,
      My son is a substute teacher, certified to teach K-8th grades, but he wants to teach kindergarten or 1st grade. He made this career choice because he's spent 14 years training at a martial arts school, and was in leadership training at age 13. He has his foot in the door in several schools and hopes to get his own class after this summer, but is experiencing some sexism as a man who wants to teach younger kids. He has seen at the martial arts school the behaviors you describe here. The parents don't discipline the kids, toilet train them, or even teach them manners. He's patient, but as far as his main career, he wants them young, before they get so "screwed up" as he puts it. He feels by 3rd grade they already dislike school, and learning, which is very bad. They should be coming into classrooms prepared to behave. The parents putting 4 or 5 yr olds in martial arts are just too lazy to discipline them at home. They are not developmentally ready to do the karate anyway. It's a shame.

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      1. 87

         cardeleanposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Good luck to your son Jean.  In our school even the kdg. students have no manners or respect.

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9. 92

   habeeposted 12 years ago

   OMG! 5-year-old kids not potty trained?? I'm glad I taught high school seniors.

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10. 82

    elle64posted 12 years ago

    I really honestly think- that we are so busy in our society-which also mean parents are busy. Caring ,nurturing, teaching and raising children takes a lot of time. And people underestimate the fact how much time goes into parenthood.

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11. 91

    Polly Cposted 12 years ago

    I read this yesterday, and found it quite shocking. However, without reading all the other replies, and as a parent of a child who will be four next month and also a child of an 11 year old, my experiences don't really match up. My son will be starting school in september and goes to preschool every afternoon - I would not say I have met any children so lacking in basic skills as the Daily Mail describes. Also, this was not the case when my other son was younger. Obviously, some children lack behind in some areas, but this article paints a picture not familiar to me even though I do know a lot of children and have watched them grow up. 
    
    Clearly, I don't have such a wide outlook to draw on as teachers do, but the preschool and schools that my children have used are full of middle class professionals who work either part time or full time, yet still have managed to bring up intelligent, capable and confident children. So, while I don't dispute the article, I will say that the Daily Mail often prints view points that don't relate to my own experiences as a parent. They seem to be quite good at printing the exception and portraying it as the norm. Or maybe I just haven't noticed.

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12. 85

    DzyMsLizzyposted 12 years ago

    WOW!  I can believe every word of that article, and the UK is not alone. 
    
    But what shocked me most was the headmaster asking the teacher to apologize to the mom for expecting her to discipline her son!!!  If it had been me, I'd have given the headmaster at the very least a dropped-jaw stare, and probably would have said that I would do no such thing.  Even if it meant losing my job.  This kind of bowing to such stupidity is just as stupid as the original action or statement.
    
    That is the crux of the problem!!  It is the parents who are spoiled brats, and everyone is so scared of "offending" anyone else that the problems just keep escalating.  The whole climate of being PC ("Politically Correct") is the root cause.  I find it nauseating.
    
    These parents need to be offended and probably slapped upside the head as well. 
    This permissiveness and allowing children to run the household, and mistaking discipline for abuse has got to stop.

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    1. 93

       Jean Bakulaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       This is so true, DzyMsLizzy,
       When people at the martial arts school are asking my 24 yr old son what to do with their kids who won't listen, that's bad. He may have a teaching degree, and many years of volunteerism with young children. But he's never raised a child or been married. What does he know, lol? We were lucky he was the type of child who seemed to thrive on a routine. They need structure. I had worked F/T for many years and had him when I was older though, and was ready to take off some time from work. They say the person's character is formed by the time they are 3! Parents now don't want to be bothered with their own kids. At least many I see, I'm sure there are many devoted ones out there.

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    2. 60

       Disturbiaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I couldn't agree with you more DzyMsLizzy!

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13. 74

    Diane Insideposted 12 years ago

    All this talk about how the kids are behind and need constant help for what should be easy tasks, and the discipline problem with kids....
    
    I remember when I was a kid I was terrified that I would be kidnapped, this was the result of cathing too much news. Hearing about some kid in another town being kidnapped and never seen again.
    
    My father being a jokester tries to comfort me. He says: "Don't worry Diane, if anybody takes you they will bring you back as soon as they see how mean you are."
    
    Now of course he was joking, but, these kids now days I wonder if that might be the case.
    
    LOL

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14. 80

    S G Huppposted 12 years ago

    I personally think this has something to do with the fact that the earliest members of the "everybody gets a trophy/you can do ANYTHING" generation are starting to have children.  In the US we began a shift toward self esteem for the sake of self esteem in our child-rearing culture.  Everything was focused on not ever making a child feel bad in any way about anything, with the thought being that emotionally healthier adults would be the result.  As it happens, the opposite is true.  We have a generation of young adults, many of whom, have been raised with no personal resposibility, have never had to deal with any kind of setback (we're all winners), and who have never been disciplined in any meaningful way.  This doesn't produce a well functioning adult--it produces a narcissist.  Now they are having children and are simply incapable of focusing on anyone other than themselves.

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    1. 85

       DzyMsLizzyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Abso-blooming-lutely correct, S G Hupp!!
       If you do something wrong, you should be made to feel bad.  And you don't like feeling bad, so that is the lesson to not behave that way again!  There is an entire generation of narcissists being raised.
       It is really scary to think that one day, these people who care only about themselves and their own interests will be in charge of the country.  ... Oh, wait!  They already are! 

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15. 62

    Lady_Eposted 12 years ago

    Hi Izzy
    
    
    A touching story. I teach Adults in FE (Further Education) and never knew Primary school Teachers had to deal with that. However, on reflection, not all kids learn at the same pace. Teachers maybe via Line Managers can speak to parents or the issue could be raised in Parents/Teacher meetings and the situation monitored. My only concern is that those innocent kids would be very disliked by their teachers.
    I didn’t like this bit: 
    
    “He had no idea how to hold a pencil, and when I asked him what letter the word ‘red’ started with, it became apparent that he wasn’t even sure what the colour red looked like”
    
    Well, that is why they are in school. They should be taught nicely from that level. There are many Adults in UK who can’t read or write. So, give the kids a chance. For me personally, a teacher who can make that statement doesn’t have a heart for kids or a heart to teach. They wouldn’t even make the lesson interesting or fun. There’s already a negative attitude towards the kids.
    
    Anyway……. Have a lovely weekend Izzy. You got me going there. Lol

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