Is a common sense approach to immigration even possible?

1. 77

   Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago

   All this listing is great, but how do you know that those people would be stopped?
   
   I'm sure I could find an even longer list of American citizens who have done even worse things.

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   1. 61

      Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Fine - you have a list of violent dangerous illegal aliens - deport them. However there needs to be a different set of  rules for the hoardes of hard-working - hispanic members of the community without papers. I don't think anyone is advocating the USA being a sanctuary for dangerous foreign criminals. The question is how we will treat those who are NOT dangerous and are NOT a drain on society.
      
      I am NOT an advocate of open borders. I am opposed to the USA becoming a police state.  Someplace in the middle is an imperfect justice. The estimated cost of deporting all illegals is 300 BILLION dollars. In a cost/benefit analysis that would be like amputating your right arm to cure a hangnail. Ignoring the situation is irresponsible. The states have no authority to deport - this is a FEDERAL problem. Congress must act.
      
      Central to my argument all along has been the need for a colorblind employment verification system which employers MUST use. Without that, the USA will continue to be a magnet for illegals and any other legislation futile.

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      1. 62

         TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No there doesn't Doug. they can go back to where they came from. They can get to the back of the line. it is not fair for the honest immigrants who are doing it right. Amnesty has already been granted and it just encouraged more to come.
         
         They can be punished for breaking the law, like all other criminals.
         
         Should we release all the inmates convicted in America?
         
         Breaking the law, is breaking the law.
         
         So if we amnesty them, then we should amnesty all Americans who have broke the law also.

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         1. 61

            Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            "Breaking the law, is breaking the law. "
            
            It's amazing how resolute conservatives are when you are talking about  poor Mexicans - and how flexible they become when you talk about lawbraking by high government officials in the previous adminstration.
            
            Warrentless wiretapping is illegal. Torture is illegal.
            
            I repeat the cost of deportation is estimated at 300 Billion. You can't leave the situation as it is. Comprehensive reform COULD be built around an employment verification system and that would make the US less attractive to human smugglng. You can address the cause or the symptoms - One method will actually solve the problem - the other method will amuse red-neck wingnuts. I am out to SOLVE the problem.

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            1. 64

               TheSituationposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I think I agree with you in some areas Doug.  I do not think we should deport all illegals.  I do think that dropping the hammer on employers would cause many to return home of their own accord.  However, the $300 Billion is not really that large when you consider that the CA legislature and Governor are asking for over $800 million a year just for their cost in incarcerating illegal immigrant inmates, let alone the cost for education, healthcare etc. 
               
               "California is forced to spend $880 million this year alone to pay for the cost of incarceration,"

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            2. 62

               TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               You guys can think you have made all the progeress you want.
               
               I am just one of a very large group that says no amnesty... too bad.
               
               They broke the law... go home before we catch you or you will lose all right to apply for citizenship period. you can keep slingin your term comprehensive reformn about all you want. Your talking about amnesty and we do not want it.
               
               You guys are amazing... you think because you babble among yourselves and pat each other on the backs, it changes the field.
               
               No amnesty. Go to the back of the line.
               
               And the way you all keep focusing every remark oppossed to you all toward mexicans, is rediculous and shows your own narrow mindedness .
               
               There are alot of non-mexican illegals in this country. So stop being racists and inferring that the only illegals here are mexicans.
               
               And that is an awfully large representative proportion in our prisons... considering they are all just... "peaceful hard-working migrants".
               
               Sorta like the amount of terrorists which are islamic... representing the "religion of love and peace".
               
               I must not understand what exactly "peaceful" and, "love and peace", mean in thier context...

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   2. 64

      TheSituationposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      @ Uninvited.  That is true, there are tons of American Citizens that commit horrible crimes.  The point here is that these people would be alive if our government was enforcing our existing laws.  I do not see this any differently than when someone released early on parole kills again, we should be angry as it was preventable, all of these and many more were preventable, that is the real point.

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2. 60

   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   Doug...let Mason babble.. I think a lot of progress has been made in this thread... If Mason wants to jump in now without reviewing where the rest of us have been, let him look foolish.

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   1. 64

      TheSituationposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree Mike, I think we have made some progress 

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3. 59

   ChimPhungHoangposted 14 years ago

   The bottom line is that illegal aliens are JUST that--illegal.  You can snipe at people and publish one-liners all you want.  It's a problem that we face here in America and we are making attempts to deal with it.
   You need to stop quoting statistics too because stats don't mean anything.  They can be manipulated.  If you want to use stats to support illegal aliens then you need to use them to get ME out of jail when I rob a bank to get money to feed and support my kids because I can no longer afford all the money I pay to support the illegals in my own city. 
   It's not a matter of cost.  It's a matter of upholding our laws!
   What part of "illegal" do some of you folks not get?

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4. 60

   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   Situation....hundreds of billions compared to one billion...is really no comparison at all.
   
   The system of corrections in California leaves much to be desired for....  Being that I have had family members caught up in our legal justice system...the corruption within the corrections officers population alone is deplorable... People are using our government funds to get rich....whether it is the perks for the individual officers, or whether it is the insider deals, like commissary contracts....
   
   Do not blame the costs on undocumented here.....rather, look to the very legal residents and citizens who profit from our jails and prisons....  There is too much of a "business"/for profit mentality in many of our public programs...
   
   The Los Angeles County Sheriffs need to keep those jail buses full......guilty or innocent, those arrested provide a lot of dollars...just like for schools and their youth... If the youth don't go to school, the school loses money...
   
   I would rather have more schools than more jails and prisons....

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   1. 64

      TheSituationposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Mike, that is $900 million for 1 year, in 1 state and only for locking up people who should not even be here.    The point I am trying to make is that this issues is costing us money either way, whether we do or do not try to deport large numbers of them.

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5. 60

   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   Have a read.....
   
   http://mediafilter.org/shadow/s41/s41.drugwar.html
   
   Joseph Whitt's "The Mexican Peso Crisis" is also very good...

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6. 62

   TMMasonposted 14 years ago

   Anyone who voted for the Obama care and bailouts has no right to even mention the cost of deportation as a hinderance to deporting illegals.
   
   Gimme a break... that is as hypocrytical as it comes.
   
   Fully armed national guard and mass deportation.
   
   Adios amigos!!!

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   1. 64

      TheSituationposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I still think that since much of this has been caused by the employers, that they need to be held accountable with tough enforcement...many illegals will return home of their own accord if there are no jobs for them.

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7. 74

   Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

   Yea ...how come no-ones going after the fat white greedy employers-dare I say American employers who know exactly what they are doing -breaking the law....by employing illegl immigrants ,no surprises why ...
   Why pay someone who knows their labor worth and rights $15,when you can get someone who will take $7 and never upset the boat!
   
   If they were heavily fined or businesses closed down  ( not just bitch slapped ,like what happens now) but seriously had their greed and power limited....simple ,no illegal workers.
   
   It gets so monotonous hearing some Americans ( happens in other Western countries too) whine an blame illegal immigrants for 'taking their jobs"...when they ought to be focusing on why they are able to gain employment in the first place..
   Its not rocket science

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8. 62

   TMMasonposted 14 years ago

   There are laws against hiring illegals on the books... just because they haven't been enforced doesn't mean we should give amnesty to all the illegals.
   
   Enforce all the laws... deport... fine companies... all of it.
   
   But no amnesty... they can go to the back of the line, and that is in thier own countries. If we have to deport them they will never be elligable for citizenship.
   
   I don't think anyone on the right or independent has said let the employers off... thats is just more leftist bait to pull the conversation off point. They constantly want to go from one extreme to the other... "oh your a racist... oh give them amnesty."
   
   How about enforce the laws!!
   
   Enforce all the laws and deport the illegals.

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   1. 61

      Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      If the United States deported all its illegal immigrants at once, how long would the bus convoy be?
      
      a) 18 miles    b) 180 miles    c) 1,800 miles
      
      Answer:
      
      C, 1,800. To deport the 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States en masse, it would take more than 200,000 buses, stretching more than 1,800 miles, according to a December 2009 Center for American Progress (CAP) report. (I did the math, and that would amount to 47.5 feet per bus and 60 people per bus. Of course, in real life, some people would have to be sent home via airplane.)
      
      The cost would be nearly $300 billion over five years, the think tank estimates. (I did the math again, and that would be 110 buses per day at a cost of $25,000 per illegal immigrant, which presumably includes the costs of apprehension, detention, legal proceedings, and transport, based on the methodology in this 2005 CAP report, which uses older numbers.)
      
      Arguing that this type of undertaking is unrealistic, the 2009 report says immigration reform must resolve the status of unauthorized residents; otherwise, they're receiving "amnesty by inaction."
      
      http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/201 … _bus_convo

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      1. 62

         TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         The hell with the buses... you know the carbon footprint that would leave.
         
         No. They are just going to have to man up and walk the distance back.
         
         They walked quik enought to come here, Doug. They can hoof it back...
         
         Wouldn't be the first time we marched a people across the continent... at least it would be for a great ideal like, "global warming", this time.
         
         What is unrealistic is granting amnesty every twenty years thinking your not encouraging the problem.

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         1. 61

            Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            "Wouldn't be the first time we marched a people across the continent... at least it would be for a great ideal like, "global warming", this time."
            
            "The Trail of Tears was the relocation and movement of Native Americans, including many members of the Cherokee, Creek, Seminole, and Choctaw nations among others in the United States, from their homelands to Indian Territory (present day Oklahoma) in the Western United States. The phrase originated from a description of the removal of the Choctaw Nation in 1831.[1] Many Native Americans suffered from exposure, disease, and starvation while en route to their destinations, and many died, including 4,000 of the 15,000 relocated Cherokee."
            
            From Wikipedia - see 'Trail of Tears'
            
            TMMMason - You keep posting - the hearless racist advocacy of brutal lawless policy is a better argument for comprehensive reform than I could ever make.

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            1. 62

               TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Wiki... are you for real?... You couldn't ffind a better source for your history. I am actually quite surprised you knew what I was talking about... as for your lack of humor... well you never have had any, so...
               
               But yes it was a ruthless action on our part. One that I am quite content to acknowledge and move on from. Do you actually think we would be allowed to march millions of mexicans across the country?... C'mon Doug. lol

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               1. 61

                  Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  "Do you actually think we would be allowed to march millions of mexicans across the country?... C'mon Doug. lol"
                  
                  No, I don't think it will be allowed. I also don't think a Mexican family, established in the community, hard-working and law-abiding will be removed to Mexico, with all their property left behind  or forced into receivership (The Nazis did that the best.)  and forced to start from scratch in a land wracked by mass murders and corruption.
                  
                  Yeah, there's bad illegals - mixed in with the good. When comprehensive reform is passed, the law will make the effort effort to separate good from bad and put in a workplace verification system so that employers won't be recruiting illegals.

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                  1. 62

                     TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I have stated a thousand times on this forum that we have been screwed by the Govt buying and supporting houses for all the illegals. And that we will never be able to enter private property and remove anyone from thier residences.
                     
                     So I am glad you were paying attention Doug.
                     
                     Yes... it would be like NAZI germany.
                     
                     Those damn leftists didn't care a whit about the jews nor any other considered a sub-race. Thank God we are about to remove the leftist socailists from power in America. As long as everyone remembers it is the progressives we have to get rid of.... we will be fine. No nazis here. Just chuck all progressives... R or D doesn't matter... if they are a progressive they must go. Damn NAZIs!

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9. 74

   Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

   With respect to Imigration though , if you enforce the laws that have been there for some time ,then my point in having to deport certain classes ie the  illegal working class becomes significantly reduced IMO.Cause and effect.
   
   In general many laws and policies (which ,by the way is not law) are somewhat screwy...ie. make little  or no sense.
   
   For instance ,the prisons are overloaded ( illegal and legal alike ) and even some boost of being gangster soldiers , so why not send those people to Iraq /Afghanistan to further their ambitions while saving the taxpayer money , not once but twice in taxes...

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   1. 62

      TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      So you want to take a, "Class", as you put it, of this society that pretty much spouts thier hatred of America and it's oppression. Train them, arm them, and send them on what they will surely see as another American explot of oppression?
      
      that oughta fly well with the race baiters like jackson the ACLU and La'Raza.
      
      And the illegal working class should not exist... no illegals should be here.
      
      Either we are a nation of laws, or not... can't have it both ways.
      
      You cannot allow a class of people to brake the law... and then claim law and order for the foundation of your society.
      
      There are not enough jobs in America for the citizens, now. The illegals only contribution to that, other than taking the jobs from the citizens, is to depress the wages of that market, on top of stealing the jobs.
      
      I see no good in the existence of the illegal working class.

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10. 74

    Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

    The Illegals do not contribute to a problem that has been there for some time..they merely collect and respond...
    
    In other words if ya dont want ants in ya cupboard ,quit putting sugar there to attract them or at least secure the contents.....make any sense to you?
    
    No its simply greed, and who has made the most profit?
    
    Governments of course ,including Lawyers /Bankers..
    
    Reading your response it doesnt sound like you get my perspective on saving money ...so I wont bother adding to it.

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    1. 62

       TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       As I said... enforce all the laws.
       
       This isn't about which, ONE, we accuse and blame... it is about stoping ALL of them... illegals and those who hire them... secure the borders and arrest and deport all violators.
       
       Thats what I mean about one extreme, to another.
       
       "It is not thier fault... it is America's fault for building such a tempting country."
       
       That is plain BS.
       
       Yes. Close all the borders deport all illegals and fine or close all bussinesses which employ said illegals.
       
       All of it... to say well there here and it is our fault... that is BS and most Americans are sick of it.

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    2. 64

       TheSituationposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       With all respect Eaglekiwi, I am not exactly sure what your points are.  I do think we need some reforms with the judicial system (decriminalizing possession of small amounts of pot for one.)  However, giving criminals guns and military training is a pretty horrible idea.  Here is some reform for you..
       
       "The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."
       
       Those numbers are 8 years old...what do we think that number is now?  There is your prison overcrowding right there.

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       1. 74

          Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks for the respect, the Situation.
          
          I was mainly responding to earlier posts with my own thoughts and ideas thrown in.
          Practicality and common sense ,I count as reliable time proven friends.
          
          
          It just seems senseless to me ,that thousands upon thousands of men/women are being housed,fed, cared for in instituations across the nation ,( prisons) costing the  taxpayer ,who boast of freedom  by the way , increased taxes, less money goes into education , employment , ie economy........
          It is a huge waste of human resources to have healthy individuals sitting in cells.....doing what ...planning their next 'project'....
          Obviously not all crimminals would be minimum risk , even so within the prison grounds they could farm, garden, build, repair, ....do do do do ....
          
          Those figures you quoted above 270,000 illegal immigrants serving jail time....why were they not deported ...and when and if they are ..how much does that cost the taxpayer I wonder....either option IMO, is not practical or logical.....
          
          I just think the ongoing costsof deportation and wages from the bottom up to the top ...police officer, processing agents, lawyers ,homeland security, politicians, etc etc..( I didnt even include the typists, secretaries,clerks, translators, support people) ALL is a displacement of the everyday, honest hard working  tax paying citizen
          
          
          The state of SC where we live is a beautiful state ,however the roads are a mess, educational problems lack funding, youth programmes require funding, health programmes etc ...derilect buildings sit rotting and abandoned.......while prsioners eat 3 square meals a day for sitting around.
          It would more sense to pay guards to monitor these men/women to work , instead of paying people wages at the other end of the spectrum....
          
          Of course the local politicians turn a blind eye and spout from their ivory towers what they will do ,when elected as Governors etc....who pays for their advertisements ?.....who decides their wages , who manages their job performance ? who says youre fired, and sees that its done?....
          That to me is the biggest b/s out there and injustice !
          
          Politicians,Lawyers,Bankers can say -Life ,Liberty and Justice for us, the rest of you will pay and pay and pay ....forever an ever amen.

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          1. 64

             TheSituationposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Great, I agree with pretty much most of this.  Texas is very good about giving your persons the option of joining the military when they are in toruble for some type of minor crime and I certainly think that is a great thing!  Much better for all of us in the end if these persons go and learn sone disipline and sense of self worth than getting into the revolving door of the justice system.
             
             I do think that getting prioners to work etc is a great idea, within reason etc.  I would have to say that with the border having minimal secutiry, it was  a better idea to incarerate those serving jail time than to deport them as they would most likely come right back.  The answer is #1 secure the border, all other items depend on that to be effective. 
             
             Nice thought sand well written!!

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11. 74

    Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

    I really dont know if youre being ignorant ,or genuinely dont get it.
    
    There is nothing tempting about homelessness and out of control gun laws, not to mention a nation that spends most of its money on military
    , oh yea thats really tempting...
    
    Yes by all means deport Ilegal immigrants , and throw American citizens who break the law into jail ( already bursting at the seams) or alternatively as I mentioned let them work their time off fighting for their country-doesnt that sound more patriotic,after all.
    
    I  totallt agree that there needs to be accountabilty for ALL...perhaps beginning at the top ,if ya get my drift.
    
    I take the point that the USA may indeed be a desirous destination for 3rd world immigrants ,however most western countries are favoured in that respect. Nothing new there at all.

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