Abraham

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   mathereseposted 13 years ago

   Do you know the story of Abraham?

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   aka-djposted 13 years ago

   Please. Give us your version.
   
   There are quite a few around here. :

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   pennyofheavenposted 13 years ago

   Wasn't Abraham the dude that had a son Isaac and was meant to sacrifice his son to prove to God something?

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   mathereseposted 13 years ago

   You are right pennyofheaven, am talking about Abraham the friend of God in the Bible

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      aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Is that it?
      Does that mean this thread is finished?
      
      Maybe you should have put this in the Quetions section on Hubpages.

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         pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         

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   Revive@OwnRiskposted 13 years ago

   The Abraham who lied to men saying his wife was his sister in order to "spare" her and his life? The Abraham whose wife's handmade bore a son, Ishmael to Abraham, later despised and banished to the desert to die by Sariah? The Abraham from which sprang Ishmael and the Arabic Nations, and also Isaac, from which sprang the Jewish Nation? That Abraham?
   
   A family tree in eternal war due to religious difference. It sounds to me the family was pretty screwed up and never recovered. All the nonsense about how good Abraham was might be a little overrated. Sounds like he was more delusional than rational.
   
   Divine irony, gone insane.

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      aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You seem to have picked the worst in Abraham.
      
      I wonder what will describe your life, after it's over?
      Will someone list all you failings? Is that how you will be remembered?

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         Revive@OwnRiskposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Abraham was no better or worse than me or anyone else. He was a human, subject to all the things you and I are. He had wonderful qualities as do you and I. He also had those little flaws and an ego...like you and I.
         
         My point is that while he is over romanticized as a super-divine hero, the truth is, he was just as human as you and I. Therefore, the claims to his own divinity and who God really is should be questioned enough to determine for one's ownself where/who God is, and one's own place in the universe, not a super-romanticized, overly rated epic hero story.

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            pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            divinity?...he was plain human ...infact no one knows whether he was even there or was fiction....heard that many believe sherlok holmes was real...abhraham can be something like that too...

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               Revive@OwnRiskposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Precisely. However, all Abrahamic religions infer that Abraham was divine, whether by doctrine, or by tradition.
               
               And that is one of the great irrationalities of the story itself. Abraham was a guy who made some big mistakes. One was that he actually thought he should sacrifice his own son, based on delusional thinking, which HAS lead other religious nut jobs to actually carry out this heinous act.
               
               He was just a man, doing the best he could in the time he lived--if he ever truly did exist.

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                  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  ____________________
                  No one ever said he was divine.
                  To be divine you have to be without limits. Anyone in the flesh has many limits.
                  
                  Where do you guys get this from?

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                  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I see. He was human. So, why pick on his faults only?
                  The Bible does not ascribe divinity to Abraham. I don't know where you got that from. He is elevated to a high level of respect, because he was the one man that God chose to get His message into the world. In the book of Hebrews, he is called the father of faith, and the patriarch of Israel.
                  The Arabs claim him as their forefather too, through the line of Ishmael.
                  
                  As to his existence, that's not so easy to prove, nor deny. The Jews have kept pretty accurate records of genealogy, and they have absolutely no doubt of his existence. If you disregard these historic writings/records, then you can think what you want.
                  One thing is for certain, these two "nations" must have had one (perhaps) common ancestor. We all do. No-one just "appeared" without generational origins.
                  I like your reply better than your first post. Bit better balanced.

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                     pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     One thing is for certain, these two "nations" must have had one (perhaps) common ancestor?????...ancestors...it is always group not individual...but abraham thing doesnot surprise me...during old days ...there was tradition to consider oneself descending from single individual...it may be say as group leader...who group you belong to...x or y or z...then hundred years down the line..x becomes the great grandfather rather than being group leader...

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                        aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Assuming you're an evolutionist, you'd have to agree we all descended from one common ancestor.
                        How can one person NOT have fathered a multitude of descendants?

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                           pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Assuming you're an evolutionist ...well abraham was not only man during his time...he was just one among many...so entire nation coming from his is metaphor...yes tradition says so that many arab nations and israelis are his descendant...in end it is family dispute in israel and palestine...it seems

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                           Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           So, if you're a creationist and believe in the Adam/Eve story, how is it that humans have various skin colors and other differentiating features if they were all fathered by one guy?

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      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      That is a made up story by the scribes of the Bible; Quran corrects it .

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         Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         What is the Quoran's version?

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            paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Quran says that Abraham was a truthful person.
            
            [19:42] And relate the story of Abraham as mentioned in the Book. He was a truthful man and a Prophet.
            
            http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=41
            
            Quran does not mention this made up story of the Hebrew scribes; which they made up just to make it interesting for the public.

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               libby101aposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Hilarious! Corrects it? This is the fiction!

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      Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      ___________________
      Boy, you must have read it wrong!

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         pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         well according to islam , abraham was muslim and so was adam...so paar can't get it wrong..abraham is their prophet too...

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            Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            ______
            Well, Islam claims a lot of things that aren't true.
            But there is more wrong with your statement than that.

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               Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               As do most religions.

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                  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  ___________________
                  Why do you label everything "religion"?
                  Israel and Islam are nations.
                  
                  Abraham is part of Jewish History. It is a way of Life.
                  
                  Although people keep saying there is no record of Abraham etc...this isn't true.
                  There's no American history of them, but certainly Jewish history.

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               pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               @deborah not true according to you and same can be claimed by muslims for what you say is true...who knows what is truth and what is not...one thing only we can be certain is humans creat various understanding and those become their conviction and truth...

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                  Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  _______
                  There are about 22 countries/Nationalities that are Muslim and speak Arabic.
                  
                  One person can not have that many nationalities come from them.
                  
                  Abraham was Jewish and Hagar was Egyptian.
                  
                  Islam says Ishmael was a prophet..not true and the Hebrews counted him as evil..plus he didn't get along with anyone..
                  Islam even claims to be from Isaac. Isaac was 100% Hebrew.

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                     pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     well what is your premise for making claim of truth and false?....i agree 22 countries can't come from one man...but i doubt even entire israel can come from him...i believe it is metaphor and not surprising because many abraham like figures have appeared world over...not as faith but m talking about descendant ...even many communities claim to be direct descendant of muhammad ...so that phenomena can be understood...
                     
                     now coming to lshmael...well what you say is based on one book and what muslim say is based on another book...which book is truth?...if we go by faith muslims would claim quran is true while jews would claim torah is true...so it is faith which talks and no one can say x is true or y is false...it is x is true because i believe so and y is false because i believe..
                     
                     in end it bogs down to belief and so truth becomes subjective out here...jews truth is false for muslims and muslim truth is false for jews and so on...

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                        Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        _________________________
                        Hebrews do not just go by scripture.
                        They keep record/Genealogies. Muslims don't. They say they keep it all in memory.
                        
                        I guess if you write it down, you can't claim it differently
                        
                        Hebrews and their scriptures existed before Islam.
                        Arabs are from 9 BCE.

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                           pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           hmmm...interesting point...before muhammad didn't arabics have any written history?....they should be something logically...you have a point...much of arab history comes from quran which was written after muhammad came into scene...

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         Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         What parts are wrong? I'm curious.

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            Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            ________
            Read it first and see.
            
            When I read something, I do so with the idea of learning what it says.
            
            I see people post many things from what they've heard or the way they remember it, without checking first.

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   Hebrews and their scriptures existed before Islam.
   
   Yes they existed; but they got corrupted by the clergy and so Quran corrected it.
   
   Hindu scriptures or more old than the Hebrew; does being old makes it more authentic and truthful necessarily. Not a good argument.

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      Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      _______
      The Hebrews have all their writings in the original and nothing was corrupted. Now if you are speaking of the Greek and English translations, I agree.
      However if you mean they didn't say what Muslims wanted them to say...well!
      
      Being the oldest matters, when parts of your writings are claimed by others to be their own.

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      pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      @paar same thing applies to what you call new...just because some book comes as late as 2k or 1.4k years...does it make it authentic?...and hindu scriptures or other scriptures ,books from other civilizations are work of people and contains their experience and thousands of years of human experience...yes like every other book those are not divine and contains myth too in it but those experiences formed great human civilizations and paved way for humans to excel...so we must give them their due...it is because of our ancestors that we are what we are today...god if real created system and what humans did with system is human's achievement...god had nothing to do with that...we praise god but forget to praise our ancestors...irony..isn't it?

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   mikelongposted 13 years ago

   I see there is some contention about this guy Abram, who would later become Abraham.
   
   As for who "corrects" it or not....the issue first and foremost is that the Biblical narrative comes long, long, long before the Quran...therefore it is more accurate to refer to that version of the story...
   
   Now...we have some guy from Southern Iraq who leaves his home to head west...
   
   Supposedly he has sure faith in his god.... His god made numerous promises to him that his "seed" would populate the earth....that there would be a covenant with him....though he had no children...
   
   He has numerous concubines before and after Sara (who would become Sarah)....
   
   Though he supposedly had absolute faith in his god, and this god promised a covenant with his children and childrens' children, Abraham still didn't have enough faith to stand up for himself when it came to claiming his wife as his own...
   
   He even trades her for many more women..... When he does get his wife returned, the official story lacks any clarity as to whether Abraham returned the concubines he was given...
   
   He has many kids with many women....but when he dies, he gives his inheritance only to his official "son".....the rest get nothing....
   
   These Biblical bastards would end up destitute......
   
   In his story we see the out-of-wedlock sexual activity and childbearing.....we see how God "disappears" when it comes to providing counsel to Abraham about what to do concerning his wife's jealousy of Hagar....  We see God stand idly by while Abraham's true first born son is abandoned twice with his mother.....left to fend for themselves in the wilderness....
   
   The more I see the story....the less I see any "god".....the less I see the "sanctity of marriage"....and the less I see an example for anyone to emmulate....
   
   As for being the "oldest", I believe that the more ancient writings we uncover and translate the more we will realize that many of these Biblical and Qurannic stories come from even older cultures....
   
   The Noah story is simply the reinvention of older Sumerian tales.....
   
   The concept of Moses parting the Red Sea is partially taken from an Middle Egyptian story about a pharaoh who has his magician part the Nile River to retreive a concubine's necklace....
   
   These people who would become Hebrews...and those who would even later become Muslims were sitting on a major crossroads of ancient times......from Mesopotamia to Egypt, cultures, languages, relgions, and conflicts cross-pollinated ideas that turned into these stories.....
   
   But, these ideas are then turned into political control mechanisms.......and we lose the larger idea....  These stories are not intended to create control....they are expressions of culture....  They provide a snapshot into human social and cultural evolution and show how people interacted with one another over time...

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      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Poor Atheists; they know these things but could never take control of the things; things always were against them.

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   mikelongposted 13 years ago

   I don't know what you mean?
   
   How does being an atheist have to do with what I said?

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