Pentecostal christianity a cult?

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   Baileybearposted 13 years ago

   I'm reading Tania Levin's memoir about being in and out of a pentecostal megachurch (Hillsong - formed from AoG). It's a fascinating read, and I share a lot of her observations.  Tania describes Hillsong as a cult and gives reasons why.
   
   They are after recruitment and money.  People don't stay for long (after the honeymoon phase of the hype wears off).  Pentecostals mess with people's heads, make them paranoid demons are lurking everywhere etc.
   
   Pentecostal christianity more cultish that any of the other sects/denominations.
   
   Agree?
   
   
   http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/tra … 992756.htm

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      BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think it is more accurate to say that sometimes that could happen.
      
      The most horrific was Jim Jones who was originally an AOG (off shoot of Pentecostals) but he had his credentials revoked and they distanced themselves from him before he became really obviously evil.
      
      I've known groups that were definitely cult-like and many that were definitely not.
      
      I will say this emphatically, the music can be and often is mis-used, but when used properly it's awesome.
      
      I've definitely seen situations when it's the worship of music rather than allowing the music to set a worshipful mood.

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I didn't realise JJ was from AoG (that's what Hillsong is).  Destiny church/cult in New Zealand is another scary one (from apostolic roots).  Both Hillsong and Destiny are very focused on recruitment and money.  The leaders live very lavish lifestyles - they preach prosperity - blab it, grab it ie make certain bible verses your own; they have thousands of members and put a lot of pressure on people to give money.
         The thing about music is it can be very hypnotic, and people move into a right-brain trance-like state, where they are open to suggestion.

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      http://www.squidoo.com/hillsongchurch
      
      here's some stuff about hillsong - be sure to watch the video about money at the end

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      RayLynchposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I have been involved over the years with Methodists, Catholics, Bible Baptists, Southern Baptists, and Churches of God in North America and I am of the belief that all Christian demoninations are number focused.  Their focus is on the dollars brought in and the total number of members the church has as well as the number of souls they have led to Christ during any given period of time.  I actually attended seminary for a year only to discover that I was not wanted as a pastor in the churches of that denomination in Oklahoma.  Eventually, when I submitted for ordination, the church board wrote a defaming letter that explained the reasons I could not be ordained, including the fact I had children and had financial debts that would lessen my ability to pastor.  I still have that letter and haven't joined with a church since.
      
      I have continued to study the Word and believe what the Bible teaches but I don't always see it from the perspective of those who are entrenched in certain denominations.  For example, I believe that God inspred the Bible but at the same time has provided outside sources of material and experiences that broaden our understanding of the Creator and the Creation.
      
      Years ago I had a very close friend who was Pentacostal.  She and I often read the same passages fo scripture and came up with entirely different interpretations.  For example, we debated the topic of tongues many times.  I read her what Paul told the Corinthians about tongues but my dear friend still insisted that tongues was an outward manifestation that the person had actually received the Holy Ghost.
      
      Some people need the denominational direction and regimen.  That just the way it is.  But, all of us should enter such associations with an open mind and heart.  Not everything spewed from a pulpit or so-called Bible scholar is worth accepting.  The trouble is, once in the denomination the leadership pressures the members to give up their hard earned money, time, and often their family for the sake of wha they claim is Bibilcal sacrifice.

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         linsm76posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, there are cults around.  I feel bad for your bad experience.  You do not need to be ordained to give others the word.  My pastor is ordained, and no group of men decided whether he was worthy or not.  Check you local area to see what it takes to be ordained.  Our church has less than 100 members, and no basket, etc is ever passed around for donations.  We have a house for men, who have been incarcerated, on drugs, etc, that need a place to live. They are fed, and the bills are paid.  They give out food to those who need it in the neighborhood, especially at the holidays.  They help the elderly in the area, who are alone.  Yes, they have their faults as well. But we cannot take one group of people from one particular church, then lump all members of the same faith as being the same.  There is an old saying:  Take what you need, and leave the rest behind.  I truly believe God tells each of us that we are in the wrong place.  Most do not have any concept to tongues. Today, it is nothing more than a crazy, self hypnotic frenzy at best.  There are those who are looking for something, anything, that is better than what they have, and unfortunately, they get caught up in "showmanship."  I encountered a young lady, who was Pentecostal, many years ago.  She was the exact opposite of the Pentecost Stereotype    Have a great day.  God will put you where he wants you to be.

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         the last sentence is true for people that aren't in leadership too - I got sucked dry with being pressured to volunteer my time and talents.  My mother was at all these different meetings that she didn't spend much time with us kids growing up

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      Deborah Sextonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      _________
      Do you even understand what the word "cult" means?
      
      cult |kəlt|
      noun
      a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      "Is Pentecostal christianity a cult?"
      By definition, ALL religion is cult.

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      and those preaching prosperity doctrine haul in obsence amounts of money - to spend on themselves
      
      http://www.blog.joelx.com/pastor-benny- … orce/4863/

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         hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         so... i know the prosperity doctrine is a lie. Am i part of it? NO Do i worry about it? NO does is affect me? Yes but not in my devotion to God.
         
         Thanks for the warning i will sure to not keep this as a stumblingblock to my faith

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      dandy883posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Another one to be cautious of is Fundamentalism, as Fundamentalists tend to be narrow minded and are seemingly programmed in how they live.

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      thisisoliposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      "Tania describes Hillsong as a cult and gives reasons why.
      
      They are after recruitment and money.  People don't stay for long (after the honeymoon phase of the hype wears off).  Pentecostals mess with people's heads, make them paranoid demons are lurking everywhere etc."
      
      Sounds like normal Christianity to me.

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         Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Lack of knowlege feeds paranoia ,IMO

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            thisisoliposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            A fish has no word for water imo.

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   Paul Wingertposted 13 years ago

   ANY religion would be considered a cult.

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      Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Every source that defines "cult" repeatedly mentions that religious beliefs are a part of a cult. Most also list as you will see below that a cult is an unorthodox. How can any religion "NOT" be considered a cult when a cult is an unothodox religion. (Paitently waiting for someone to say because god said so)
      
      Definition of CULT
      1: formal religious veneration : worship
      2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
      3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
      4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
      5a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

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      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, it is a blame game of the Christians.
      Every denomination considers themsleves as the "only true christians" and others are cult.

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   aka-djposted 13 years ago

   What implications are you really making?
   If Hillsong (or any other group) is considered a cult, then what are all the rest? So, mainline churches are OK, in your estimation?
   Why not classify ALL churches as cults, and just be done with it?
   
   Don't forget, the followers of Jesus, after His death and resurrection were also considered a sect (of the Jews), so, in my mind, sect is not necessarily a bad thing, although that's the implication these days.
   "Oh, it's a sect. Better watch out!"
   
   Who's doing the scaremongering, the sect, the media, or you?

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'm most familiar with the pentecostal churches.  Some like Destiny and Hillsong have very charismatic leaders where everyone is mesmorised by their voice.  The music, speaking in tongues etc puts people into a trance-like state where they are open to suggestion.  I should know, I'm a musician that used to play the music to evoke the mood, to evoke emotion, to switch off thinking.
      They "love-bomb" - act as though they are your best friend, until you question them and then you are the antichrist.

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      getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      This is, by far, the most sensible thing you have ever said on the forums. IMO

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   kirstenblogposted 13 years ago

   The only good cult is the one I am grand leader of!
   I am not their grand leader so its safe to assume they are a bad cult
   
   Organized religion is a cult no matter what name it goes by

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      aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      What about organised political parties?
      
      How do they rate?
      
      Don't they affect society equally, or even more dramatically?

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         Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         They certainly have their faithful followers that ignore fact and rely on what their preachers tell them to believe.

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         It's no secret that political parties tell lies and have agendas.  Religious groups do this too - take Hillsong - the sexual abuse of minors by a founding leader was swept under the carpet; so was the visiting of prostitutes by another senior member. 
         Hillsong and Destiny have political aspirations (Destiny even made a failed attempt at getting into NZ govt - where they were going to push their hatred of homosexuals).  Hillsong (australia) obtained hundreds of thousands of tax-free tax-payers money to spend (and not much ended up going to the people). 
         They know they have influence in mass numbers - it is the same as politics.

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            hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Much of society has entrepreneurs making money off the backs of others. Low minimum wage is one. Buying from china is another. Slavery was popular once. There is a huge branch of capitalism that makes money off the poor, its an industry!  There is greed all over the place and it is ruining everything. While God sits back and watches mankind come to the end of itself, i chose to watch also.
            Its nice not to be in the drivers seat.

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         kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Sorry not have noticed this earlier
         Organized political parties seem cult like too! If not exactly cult like they are at least corrupt and evil IMHO

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   hanging outposted 13 years ago

   I disagree
   
   The first church was pentacostal (acts 2) and the last church will be pentecostal.
   
   Pentecostals unlike the other denominations have encountered a tremendous truth in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I think but have not finished researching yet, that the BHG replaces Baptism in water. The BHG is the enabler. When peter who always put his foot in his mouth, received the BHG and spoke in (angelic) tongues as the Spirit (not mans encouragement) gave him utterance the speech he spoke was mighty and bold. The BHG brought the disciples into their ministries.
   
   Pentecostals sometimes are legalistic and that is problematic for some. People need to find a pentecostal church that is not legalistic. Shop around lol, there is no scripture saying you can't, pray to God for direction to the church He wants you in.
   
   The workings of the spirit, tongues and interpretation and the word of exhortation (not prophecy)
   
   Pentecostals rock! Some have gone overboard for instance "slaying in the spirit" is nowhere to be found in the scriptures, likewise being drunk in the spirit.
   
   anyway.. Now you know the pentecostal church you attended were legalistic, make the next one not legalistic.
   My church rocks! and we are not legalistic.
   Legalism has taken a strong dive downward lately more churches are realizing the HS does the changing, not the members of the church.

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      jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Cult is not a term to throw around loosely. Cults are not limited to just religions. Atheist Communist China is the world's largest Cult for instance. Atheism is on record of being the most murderous Cult ever in history.
      
      Cults can be religious when mind control is used to enslave their victims. People's Temple is just one example. Pentecostalism as a whole is not a Cult but what stole their practices, Word of Faith, is a dangerous mind control Cult causing the financial ruin and deaths of millions while enriching the greedy Cult Leaders at the top. 
      
      The Atheist propaganda that all organized religion is a Cult is ridiculous. The Atheist slogan "freedom from religion" actually means no religious freedom for anyone as proved whenever Atheists take control of a nation.
      
      Be truth seekers and stop spewing Atheist clichéd lies. Cults invade our lives daily at all levels. Political, Govenrment, Police Abuse, Cultural, Addictions, Organized Crime, School Bullies... Whatever robs us of our freedoms, freedom of  choice is a Cult.
      
      True Christianity does not do that. Christianity gives humanity hope in this dark world where Atheists have no prospects except for being worm food.

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         your claim that atheists are a murderous cult?  Where did you pluck that from?

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            jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, current Chinese ruler / high priest of Atheism...  "Atheism is an essential part of our propaganda", V. Lenin.
            
            Can not be a Communist Party member without being an Atheist. Only Atheists Communist Party members in China are rich. Everyone else is dirt poor and subject to a deadly bullet in the back of the neck. Then while still alive, bleeding to death, have their organs removed to be sold worldwide for medical transplants. Atheist justice. Pregnant women are forced to have abortions. Nice guys you Atheists are.
            
            Jim Jones proclaimed while his sheep drank the poisoned Kool Aid "There is no God!" Same thing you say. He was an Atheist con man all along. 
            
            Atheism is the biggest, most shameful fraud ever pulled on humanity.
            
            Over 100 million were mass murdered by Atheists in the 20th Century alone. Atheism is the most murderous, biggest and worst Cult EVER!

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               Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               JJ went from believing in god to believing he was god - ego out of control, like so many "leaders"

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               hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               pol pot sucks.. okay men today go out and kill everyone whos wearing glasses.... sheesh. No fear of God in that man.

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         Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Would the "dark world" you perceive have anything to do with the fact that Christians have had their hand in forming it these past centuries? So far, Christianity has done more than anything else to create 'worm food.

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            hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            christ forms the light. Non belief lives in darkness. so no darkness has nothing to do with christendom.
            Give us the names of your worst christian murderers please beelze. Since you want to participate i urge you to participate well.
            cite the names please.

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               Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I am awaiting his response.

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                  mom101posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Woman of  Courage, here is a tip my son just told me,
                  
                  In your replies you post, do this where you want your to be placed.
                  press and hold the shift key while at the same time press and release the semi colon    then press and hold the shift button while at the same time press the right side parenthesis key.
                  
                  When you finish your reply and hit the send button, it will show up as a
                  
                  Hope it helps.

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                     Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Your son is absolutely correct.

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            mom101posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Bdad, are you saying that more christians are dying compared to non-christians?

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      what do you define as legalistic, overboard or not?
      
      The AoG and Apostolic movements I was associated with had was people "being slain in the spirit", speaking in tongues, attempts at healing (like arms growing evenly - a con), people screaming at times, people "dancing in the spirit", people rolling on the floor, people "prophesising", "laying on hands", "deliverance" etc.

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-Dis … re=related
         
         god moving or power of suggestion (hypnotism)?

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            Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=794_1278886212
            
            holy spirit or hypnotism?

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               hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               slain in the spirit is not scriptural. There are no examples of slain in the spirit in the bible, neither is drunk in the spirit scriptural. These are a charismatic movement that is overboard. You see, pentecostalism split when a side of it wanted to follow signs and wonders and the other side of it said no to this.
               The workings of the spirit, tongues, interpretation and the gift of exhortation do work in the church today.
               Sometimes people do fall down when prayed for, but this should not be common as God does not actually slay people but (and this is true world wide and over all of history also) people desirous to experience something will convince themselves that such an occurrence has happened. The woman who is afraid to walk alone at night will hear bumps and thumps all along the path she walks and maybe even one day be chased by something not there. The person who believes in angels may one day have a vision of one or talk to a pet who guides them. Or a strange light in a night sky is a ufo to one who believes in ufo's.
               hypnotism.. see benny hinn. His fire of god is not scriptural either.
               This is why we are urged to try the spirits (attitudes and beliefs) of churches and people. There is no hurry to believe as churches do but people get caught up in the presentation of albeit sincere but slightly offbase christianity. I reckon peoples lives are not changed if they do not fall down while being prayed for any more than if they remained upright.
               We have all the examples of workings of the spirit in the bible and no new thing can be added, this God did to make sure we were not lead astray.
               I attend a baptist and pentecostal church. Last sunday was a lip biter for me to sit through a baptist teaching on gifts of the spirit, lol. To watch the pastor side step and tip toe around the holy ghost was painful lol. but i am not swayed because my eyes are spiritually on christ.
               Its an easy thing to get wrapped up in. But keeping our eyes on christ and letting patience work her perfect work, asking for guidance etc.. will keep God working in our lives, without error.

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                  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  here's an article about legalism - the dark side of christianity
                  
                  http://www.thepropheticyears.com/commen … tanity.htm

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                     brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     so what.. it doesn't apply to me. I am neither involved in a legalistic pentecostal church nor do i abide by legalism. As Paul said.. we enter into His rest. Its a relationship of love not a position of duty. If one crams themselves into a bunch of rules, how can this be any different that what the israel did under the levitical priesthood? and if we do that again, christ died in vain to free us from that obedience to rules.

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                        donotfearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        
                        
                        You couldn't have said it plainer, brothery.

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                           brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           yah.. its a shame they don't get it. They look around them and see all the wrong, but never do they think, "i can do a better job than them" and yet they proclaim to know all the answers. lol.
                           I think to have forsaken God and stepped back into the world and denied Christ turns people crazy. None of this makes any sense and indeed i was happier before i turned up here. Even when presented with truths and context they still ignore and deny God.
                           I do not envy them at all.
                           I am glad to know jesus, the way jesus is meant to be known.
                           and the father, really is a father.
                           and the unbelievers, really are wicked

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                              getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              All this confidence, and absolutely no evidence of anything that has been asserted. This is just willful ignorance, due to fear of authority.

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                                 hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 hahahaha

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                              sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              You mean like this 
                              http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/60044?p … ost1339110 ?
                              
                              At some point you must see how this comes across.  Someone who is searching sees you saying, "I am glad to know jesus, the way jesus is meant to be know."
                              
                              Then to stumble how you actually perceive it. 
                              
                              To you, an "unbeliever" may have just saw what you said about God, seeing as though that "potential converts" first reaction is that your god kills people and you don't deny it but refute when an atheist say, "your god kills people".
                              
                              You say Jesus is meant to be known as an Atheist Killer, what are people supposed to think?

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                              Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              When the only truths and context we see from believers is the spreading of hatred towards others, it's little wonder we deny your religion.
                              
                              It's easy to see who really is wicked.

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                                 hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 you reap what you sow

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                        Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Agreed!

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         there are some videos of an atheist hypnotist demonstrating "slain in the spirit" (the one's I tried to view didn't work).

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         mom101posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         bailey, do you have something against dancing? Or music for that matter?
         
         There is right and wrong with anything. There is good and bad in anything.
         
         Con-artist are everywhere. It wouldn't shock me if there were even some con-atheists. 
         
         That's the problem, People want to throw out the whole load of apples just because one or two are rotten.
         
         If people would stop trying to condemn (or judge) and do "positive" things or say uplifting words, the world would be a much nicer place to live.
         
         Sometimes we need to think before we speak.  Every word that comes out of our mouths, every move we make, takes on wings.
         
         As far as talking in tongues, I was raised a baptist. To say the least, they DO NOT believe in the talking in tongues. Not to many years ago, I was in a church service, baptist, and the pastor gave an open invitation alter call. Many people went, as did I. I knew what I was praying about, and the pastor made his way to me and asked me if there was anything he could pray with me about.. I looked at him and answered him, he didn't understand me, so I repeated it, he still didn't understand, 3 times I repeated my answer, he never understood me so I just shook my head, continued with my prayer and went back to my seat. After the service, the pastor came up to me and asked what language I was using at the alter. I told him English. He said, well, it didn't come out English. And by the way, English is the only language I know.
         
         Up until that point, I spoke against speaking in tongues. I still do not understand it fully, but I don't talk against it now.
         
         Music, the Creator likes it. Just go outside and listen. Sounds of Nature. It makes me smile. There is nothing wrong with music in church.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with you 101 - stop condemning and judging every time you say something and maybe -just maybe - the world will be a better place.

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               hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               like you do

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            Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            i don't have anything against dancing or music - I am a musician and used to play music in services.
            
            One or two apples are rotten....with regards to christianity, what are you referring to as rotten?

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               mom101posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Though I didn't go into detail, I answered that earlier.
               
               Baileybear, no one on this planet is perfect.  And as sad as it is, there are those that profess to be christian but live a different life. That causes judgment on the rest.
               I always wished I had the talent to play an instrument in church. I know your music touched a few hearts.
               
               mark, if wanting everyone to speak kind things to each other is condemning then call me guilty. I am sorry if that offends you.

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               jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Without Pseudo Christian Cults like Westboro Baptist racist Cult, Atheists would have no propaganda to sell their Atheist religion with.

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      getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      Apologetics will just never stop with whimsical made up nonsense.  All religions, no matter how you dress them up, are cults. And they are all based on FRAUD.  Yours is too.

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         jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Spoken like a true Atheist trying to shove YOUR Atheist religion down our throats. We ain't buying. God is real. Too bad for you, you haven't been introduced. Most believers in a higher power are tolerant of other religions. Atheists are not tolerant of anyone except other Atheists. Atheists are the most intolerant people in the world. Whenever an Atheist dictator seizes power by force all churches are shut down. That is shameful!

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            Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I believed in God for years, since childhood.  I was more judgemental in the church than out of it.
            
            Atheism is a religious concept with associated crap (eg the atheism is religion spiel). 
            
            BTW, Hilter professed to be a christian.  Plenty of deaths in the name of religion

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            getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Don't be silly.  Don't you know that non stamp collecting is not a hobby?
            
            
            
            Since you are so sure about that, prove it.  Then I will convert instantly. 
            If one can't prove his assertions, then, logically, he should be relegated to the pile of nonsensical delusional thinkers.
            
            
            
            This statement is absurd and thoughtless.  We have all been introduced to some form of religious stupidity.  But go ahead and spew this venomous hatred, because anyone can see you are very angry.  Why? Because of the frustration that logic causes?
            
            Btw, I was saved at 10.  My dear father was a Pentecostal minister.  I was one of the most adamant believers in this fraud.  Don't ever tell me I have not been introduced.
            
            
            
            Devil-worshipping is a religion.  Are you tolerant of that?
            
            
            
            Atheist are not the ones flying planes into buildings, killing abortion doctors, picketing funerals of dead soldiers, and trying to force prayer and nonsensical creation science into classrooms.
            
            
            
            That's like stopping the distribution of crack.  Whoa!  I feel the anxiety.

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               hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               devil worship is a bad thing... are you tollerant of working toward good? as in jesus christ? doesn't seem like it.
               
               unfair comparison... i am against dictatorship and i am against non freedom of choices.. are you for these things.
               
               turn about is fair play

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      getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Of course, you disagree.

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      fundamentalism, especially pentecostalism can bring out mental illness (did for me - have hubs about it)
      
      http://www.psychforums.com/cult-abuse/topic2609.html

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         jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Those who claim to be Christian fundamentalists are not. Legalists but not fundamentalists. They are the stone throwers, claiming everyone else's sins are worse than their own.
         
         Christ's words are the fundamentals of Christianity. Not what some legalists, making up non scriptural man made laws say. They want to be called fundamentalist but they are not.
         
         Fundamentalists in Christianity are the ones who live by the words of Christ. That is true Christianity. True Christianity does not give Atheists one iota of propaganda to spew.

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            Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            ah, "true christianity" - what the hell is that?  Everyone thinks they have the truth

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               jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Ah "true Atheism"! Only atheists think they have the truth!

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                  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  No just some facts.

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                     Milla Mahnoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     One woman facts are another woman lies.   Hi sis

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                        sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        OH snap!  Haven't heard from you in a while.  What a dirty girl! lol it's so scantily clad.

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                           Milla Mahnoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Been away for a while, and looks like did not miss much. Same old stuff over and over again.
                           
                           Still pretty warm down here, so no need to dress up

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                              sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Yip, same old stuff over and over and over. lol 
                              
                              Still warm here too, actually hot.

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                        Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Now  that sounds a little Sassy.
                        
                            tha good Kind. ??  (empty thought.. no offence intended)

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                           sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           She is a sassy gal. that's why I love her.

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                              Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Happy  YA found.ER.

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      ex-pentecostal "healer" tells tricks of trade
      
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCohlCPSLlo

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         mom101posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Bailey, do you think money had anything to do with it

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            Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            money had to do with what?  I see Destiny and Hillsong promote prosperity (so their leaders live extravagent lifestyles).  I never went to the megachurches that were materialistic

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               mom101posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               That's what I am talking about. It is becoming more and more that churches are apparently in it for the money.
               
               This is wrong on so many levels. For one, I am positive there are some very sincere people who are there to worship and to learn.
               
               It is a heart breaking situation when such member realizes the truth behind some doors.
               
               Not all churches are this way, I hope. But for me, and for now, it is better for me to worship either at home or with friends.
               
               Hope you soon recover from you experience.

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                  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I agree that most of the people are very sincere - frighteningly so

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      donotfearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I must agree with what hangingout says here:
      
      "Pentecostals sometimes are legalistic and that is problematic for some. People need to find a pentecostal church that is not legalistic."
      
      The fact is that ANY church can be bound in legalism, no matter what the denomination.  It's not fair to assume that only churces falling under the 'pentecostal' label are prone to cultish activity. 
      
      You can recognize a cult by these characteristics:
      1. Cults frequently try to instill fear into their followers if they don't comply with the 'standards' of the church.
      2. Cults will uplift the leader of the church as having the ultimate authority, what he/she says, is fact.
      3. Cults will stress that the only way to get to heaven is through their particular doctrine, none other, only theirs and they will have scripture to back up their belief.
      4. Cults & cult leaders make sure the followers lose the ability to make independent decisions about personal things without going before the 'elders'.
      
      It's in ALL denominations.

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Yep, No 2 is a biggie in my observation.  Then what happens is the very charasmatic leader starts thinking they are god

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         jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Wrong. You do not know Christianity at all do you? You just have a warped view heavily infulenced by Harris, Hitchens and Dawkins. Broadbrush everyone and everything based on what in reality is fake pseudo Christianity. We know you are here to shove your Atheist religion down our throats by twisting the truth. Shame on you.
         
         You are here to deliver us to your atheist heaven by YOUR particular doctrine, none other, only yours and you have the scripture written by your Cult Leaders / Saints Harris, Hitchens and Dawkins  to back up your belief
         
         Your Atheist cult leaders make sure the followers lose the ability to make independent decisions about personal things without going before the 'elders'. Harris, Hitchens and Dawkins.
         
         None of that happens in my Christianity, or the vast majority of Christianity, so you lie, or in reality you repeated a lie!
         
         Atheists believe "they" are Gods. Atheists are the last ones to listen to about Cults.

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            Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry matey, but though I'm a believer in Christ, your comments here do bring the term 'Christian' into disrepute.
            
            You don't know Bailey Bear at all, and you make sweeping generalisations about those who have chosen not to believe in God based on their understanding and experience.

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               jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Bailey Bear has trashed Christianity as a whole and broad brushed it with disdain. No disrepute by challenging their propaganda. Christians are not meant to be doormats for Atheist slander.
               
               Does Bailey Bear retract their intolerant anti Christian statements?
               
               Choosing not to believe in God is one thing altogether different. I have no problem being tolerant of their choice. But I will defend Christianity and the Deity of Christ to all those intolerant Atheists who attack the body of Christ with their dogma.
               
               I am not a Pentecostal but real Pentecostalism is not a Cult but Word of Faith "We are Gods" is. Know the difference.

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                  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  and you have been through the pentecostal church like I have?

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                     jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I have attended Pentecostal churches before. Some are Cultic. But not all organized religion is like stated above. That is incredulous. I had my family ripped apart by what started to be Pentecostal but led into a full blown Word of Faith Cult. Know the differences between these two beliefs. They are totally different. Some similarities but basic doctrines are different.
                     
                     I was raised a Methodist and have what would be considered mainstream orthodox Christian beliefs. Growing up my parents would refer to the Pentecostals as "Holy Rollers". But they were relatively harmless. Not cultic.
                     
                     Then came the New Age where the occult took over many Pentecostal Churches and Hagin, Copleand stole from Pentecostal beliefs and added the heretical "Ye are Gods" name it claim it garbage.
                     
                     Pentecostals reject Word of Faith voodoo. Too many people confuse Pentecostals with Word of Faith and Wofers promote the deception.
                     
                     But no matter how much I am dismayed with the proliferation of Pseudo Christian Cults abounding I have not and will not throw out baby Jesus with the dirty bath water.
                     
                     Christianity is the words of Christ. Nothing else, nothing more.
                     
                     Sorry you were fooled by the super spiritualism by external forces in a cult but that is not and never has been Christianity. Christianity is the one on one relationship with God through our Savior Jesus Christ. , being guided daily by the Holy Spirit, not man. 
                     
                     I suggest you read up on Word of Faith and determine which you were in. Word of Faith or Pentecostal. :-)

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                  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  defend your "christianity" - I don't see anything christian about you.  I don't have a dogma.  I believe in truth and exposing the lies that go on, having been subjected to years of spirtual abuse.

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                     jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Are you with me day by day to see my Christianity in action. If not then you can not judge. Like I said i am not here to be an Atheist's door mat. You slander Christianity, I will defend it. I will NOT defend Cults. Cults are easy to know by their fruits. And intolerant Atheism is a Cult.
                     
                     Your dogma is reeking throughout your posts. You don't have to read Dawkins to spew his poison. Atheist dogma is just an ages old bag of worn out already debunked clichés regurgitated from one generation to the next. Atheist dogma is garbage.
                     
                     Keep exposing the truth but don't throw innocent, sincere believers in God under the bus with the guilty wolves.

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                     hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     There are lies in everything. You only distract yourself from your once known salvation and the devil has you in his grasp.

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                  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Attacking the nonsensical lies of the bible is not propaganda.
                  It's just a display of honesty, which believers don't seem to be able to grasp.
                  
                  You can be as bitter as you want, but your bible is so riddled with foolishness that you have no grounds to demand respect for this nonsense.
                  
                  It IS disdainful.

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                     Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     getitrite - do your parents still believe?  Did they shun you when you stopped believing?

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                        getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        My father was a Pentacostal minister until his death about 25 years ago.  He was not a nice person.  He was, in fact, kinda psychopathic.  My father and I hardly spoke to each other, after about the age of six.
                        
                        My mother is 84, and still believes in this childish nonsense.  She thinks that I am deeply disturbed, because I don't believe anymore.
                        
                        I have tried to use reason to get my mother to understand that it is her and not me that is deeply disturbed.  My sister and I always win every debate that we have with my mother, on the topic of religion.  Of course, she refuses to listen to any reason.
                        
                        I'm quite sure that she believes my sister and I are being controlled by Satan.  I guess I will burn forever in hell, while she basks in paradise, totally forgetting about the fact that her child is in eternal, horrific, unbearable agony.  How insane is that?  God's got some explaining to do.
                        
                        My mother and I barely speak anymore.

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                           hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           you are not the easiest person to getalongwith. 2 parents and nil contact with each one. hmmm.
                           nasty posts on hubpages.
                                                       hmmm.
                           my sympathies go with the parents. lol
                           
                           My mom too has been anglican all her life and she doesn't even know what to expect after she is dead. I offered to answer that question for her and she declined, saying, how can anyone know? yet she claims to read the bible which i have never seen her do but, she is a wonderful person, kind etc. loves my dad, lol.
                           I get along great with each one of them. Dad can't believe in God because he was in WW2 and saw horrible things.

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                              Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              One could say you're not the easiest person to get along with either.  You only sympathise with the parents because you share their views.
                              
                              I see now why you don't believe in hell like many others that call themselves "real christians" - can't imagine your parents going there.

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                                 brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 not even close

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                                 brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 you are always making unfounded inferences and calling them truths. whazzup wit dat?

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                              getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              
                              
                              Thanks for your reply.  You are confusing my parents as the victim, when it's actually the opposite.

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                           Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           I don't feel close to my family - how can I feel close to people that are convinced I am of the devil and going to hell? 
                           My father is logical but goes along wtih what makes my mother happy.
                           My mother is very emotionally led - zero logic & constantly contradicts herself.  She can't see other people's point of view.

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                              getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              My parents were extremely ignorant, so they were the prime target of the Pentacostal church.  I think the only reasons they were in the church was because they feared going to hell, and what people in the community thought of them.
                              
                              But at home, behind closed doors, they were insufferable bullies, never showing any love, and almost totally neglecting our needs.  My dad's favorite pasttime was continually putting us down.  He also, brutally beat us with a belt and sticks and limbs from trees. When my dad came home from work, my brothers and sister and I would run and hide.
                              
                              Imagine this type of behavior coming from a minister.  How does one expect me to commit to the same nonsense that this psychopathic minister did?  I despised my parents and I despise religion.

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                                 Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 my parents did not have much education.  My mother has mental problems which she thinks is spiritual weakness.  She wants very much to be noticed.
                                 
                                 I don't blame you for despising it

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                                 lcg4jcposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 Getitrite I know you and I do not see eye to eye when it comes to faith and that's okay, we can agree to disagree.
                                 
                                 What I want to say is not about cults, not about faith, not about God.
                                 
                                 I want to respond to you the only way I know how when encoutering an evil experienced by those who should have protected and loved you. I want to say from my heart, I am so sorry for your pain, your suffering and the same for your sisters as well.
                                 
                                 Please understand I am in no way pitying you. I am just wanting to say that while the circumstances have been different, pain is still pain, hurt is still hurt.
                                 
                                 I could not just read your comment and pass it over without acknowledging you and your siblings sufferings and letting you know that I am listening and that I care.
                                 
                                 My heart cries out for you and yours

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                              jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Shunning is Cultic. What else in your experience seemed Cultic?

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                     hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     its a wrong honesty that is a lie
                     
                     hehehe

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                        Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        most people would say what you believe is a lie - does that make you a liar?

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                           jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           To say that ALL organized religion IS a lie is a lie and those who say so are liars.

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                              getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              
                              
                              All religions are made up nonsense.  Therefore, it is true that all religions are lies.  And those who say that they are not are dishonest and delusional.
                              
                              Religion is just man-made cr@p.

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                                 brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 you have passed a judgement. lol and you forget that jesus is a spiritual walk and not a religion. Why can you not keep this fact in your head? I do not talk of religion, hmmmm, maybe time for a hub on this topic.

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                                 earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 I agree with you on this, they all have the same agenda.

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                           brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           he is not wrong

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                     jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     What is disdainful is the propaganda campaign that Atheists use against believers in God. Like as if they have all the answers. But they don't. Atheists spewing there is no God is the greatest leap of faith of all.

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                        getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Again...Attacking the nonsensical lies of the bible is not propaganda.
                        It's just a display of honesty, which believers don't seem to be able to grasp.  And as you have demonstrated, you don't get it. 
                        
                        
                        True atheist think quite the contrary.  We admit that we don't know the answers to the not-yet-knowable, unlike blind followers, who think that the answers to life were written in some primitive, silly book of myths. 
                        
                        
                        
                        What about your leap of faith that there is no Allah?  Don't you think that takes a giant leap as well?

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                  Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Nothing like diving right in to forumland on a writers website after joining two days ago and not having any hubs. You need to be able to argue your case from a credible point of view, and you won't be taken as a credible poster until you've put the effort into writing some hubs.

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                     jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Soooooo, arguing the atheist propaganda is credible but defending Christianity is not? That is what you are saying?

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            Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            jeff - you come here with zero hubs to speak off and make false accusations against me.  FYI, I have not yet  read any books by Dawkins et al.
            
            I was also a pentecostal christian for many years, hence I have the right to comment.
            
            I have never believed I am a god - plenty of religious leaders start to when their egos spin out of control.

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               jefffranklinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Of course you have a right to speak. But i am correcting you on the incorrect statements you and others here have made.
               
               What is this newspeak term "hubs"?

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         donotfearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         I must mention that it does seem to be very prevalent in the United Pentecostal Church, which opened my eyes to a few things.  The limitations put on women, especially, are extreme....No makeup, no slacks, no swimming in public, no cutting your hair (not even to trim it), no movies, no TV.  It seems like there are so many 'don't do' things that it over-rides all else. I've seen some UPC women at the 'ladies only' gym excercising in their long skirt, which is a pain and gets in the way.  It's that extreme. 
         
         There's a lot of information concerning this denomination at http://spiritualabuse.org/

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            dandy883posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The limitations should be put on teens, not women.  And the limitations should be against being so anxious to date and carousing around.  Kids should wait until they're adults to do that stuff, when they're more mature.

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            stilljustwonderinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            There are some, but not all Penecostals are like that.  I guess it still goes back to the Scribes and Pharasses going by the letter of the law and not looking into a mans heart.  There are some churches today that does that.  I have only been to one of those.  The rest, the ladies cut their hair, wear make up, jewelry, even wears jeans.  I do.  I believe God is looking at my heart, not what we wear.

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               Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Good point.
               
               
               
               A Church does need to be accountable ,or in another words be honest and straight up about their vision/creed ,but like any organisation ,it is surely up to the individual to excercise their own judgement?.
               
               No different than say joining a bank, educational instituation ,investment company etc-where money changes hands.

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      dandy883posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Liturgical churches are legalistic, too.  We must realize it's our personal contact with God in our everyday lives, not some mere exercises on Sundays.

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   hanging outposted 13 years ago

   Brotheryochanans hub about choosing not to believe in hell had a really good point in it for me. He said, "because you are in it lord". We know that God hears our prayers or the murmurings of our hearts and we know that God wants to rule in our lives. So if we let him lead and guide us how can we go wrong? I think, myself included, that I do not pray enough for guidance in day to day stuff. I want to buy a car for instance, do i buy the car i want or do i pray that God show me the car He wants me to have. I want to find a good church, do i pray God send me to one, if so, do i get the newspaper and look in the religion section and start crossing off churches that i definitely don't feel good about... my point is.. with God nobody can go wrong. I am sure times can be remembered by all involved when God blessed us and we were ecstatic and delighted at the result. I know i get blessed all the time and because i allow God to lead i usually don't get what i want, i get something way better, lol..
   i wrote this because its a good point to think over.

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      are you sure you're not brotheryochanan?

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         getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         Of course he is.

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   earnestshubposted 13 years ago

   Zero hubs, zero fans, been here 39 hours and the first thing you do is jump in to the religious threads on a writers site.
   
   Can we expect you to write a hub or are you simply here to thrust your myth on others?

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      hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      we can say the same thing about beelzedad
      2 hubs 32 followers (mostly atheists lol)  9months ago.
      hubs aren't all that great either.
      jumps all over the religious forums

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         Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh have their outlook shaped by things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit.

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            Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Proverbs 20:3 It is an honor for a person to cease from strife
            but every fool quarrels.

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               earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Just who are these fools again?

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                  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  1 Corinthians 1:20   Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
                  
                    1 Corinthians 1:21   For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
                  
                  1 Corinthians 1:25   Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
                  
                  1 Corinthians 1:27   But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

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                     AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Catch-22 Chapter 2 Page 29 an unreasonable belief that everybody around him was crazy, a homicidal impulse to machine-gun strangers, retrospective falsification, an unfounded suspicion that people hated him and were conspiring to kill him.

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   Eaglekiwiposted 13 years ago

   I have attended one of the churches BB has mentioned,met some great people and didnt have any problems giving ,and not giving money.
   
   Nobody pressured me.
   
   
   Sometimes people can feel afraid or timid and never voice their opinions to the right people ,however.
   
   Just wondering BB if you feel this strongly and obviously you do ,have you emailed any of the elders of those churches and expressed your concerns?
   
   Hillsong are a talented group of musicians,and like most artists require funding.
   People expect any musical group to be supported in this way ,so why wouldnt it be any different for them -just my thoughts.

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   cynthiaaliseposted 13 years ago

   I think that it depends on which one you are attending.  I went to one for about a year and things were pretty stable there.  Although I don't think this community would handle something too outlandish.

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    Christina Aposted 13 years ago

    It is an interesting question you pose BaileyBear.  I wonder if the perspective on cultism depends on where you stand.  If you do not subscribe to a formal religion, then any religious group could be seen to meet the definitions of a cult as listed earlier in this thread.  If you are within a religious context, cults can be anything from people who think differently to those who are clearly recognised as a cult by most of society - eg the followers of David Koresh etc.  I think it is possible to read certain aspects of pentecostalist expressions through the lens of a cult, although I think that for the most part that is extreme language to use.  However, the comparison is interesting, and raises questions that any Christian group should ask to ensure it is not losing sight of what following Jesus is about.  Ultimately, I am not sure we can easily have a neutral starting position. 
    
    We bring our biases, experiences and hurts to a discussion like this, and that is certainly evident in this thread.  I do think that these kinds of discussions are not helpful if they end up being personal and attacking.  It does not bring us any closer to understanding.

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    paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

    Yes, it is a blame game of the Christians.
    Every denomination considers themsleves as the "only true christians" and others are cult.The pentecostals are followeres of Paul as other christians are; and the Christians don't follow Jesus.

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    Onusonusposted 13 years ago

    Some conservative Christian authors, especially fundamentalists, like to narrowly define a Christian cult as a group who claims their beliefs conform to Christianity, yet factually deviate from Christian "fundamental beliefs."
    
    It is that mind set, although conceived for the purpose of preserving their religious values, that is one of the largest causes for hatred amongst Christians. Using a word like "Cult" in order to describe a particular sect of religion throws honest truth seekers into the pile with suicidal, separatists, and Satanists. They want you to see any church which does not fall within their standards as brain washers, and with their leaders equated to infamous characters such as Jim Jones, Alister Crowley, Charles Manson, or David Koresh.

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    Eaglekiwiposted 13 years ago

    Description Of A Cult:
    
    Main article: Mind control
    Studies performed by those who believe that some religious groups that do practice mind control have identified a number of key steps in coercive persuasion:[30][31]
    
    1.People are put in physical or emotionally distressing situations;
    2.Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
    3.They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group;
    4.They get a new identity based on the group;
    5.They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled
    
    The Pentocostal churches I have attended never fell into any of those catergories,though sometimes the Praise and Worship time was a little long, but no way would that make it come under 'brainwashing'techniques.
    ( There was always an open door to exit!)
    
    I can not judge or discern churches I have not been too however and I am even less inclined to pass an opinion on organisations I have no knowledge off.
    
    By the way ,passion ,excitement, joy,praise doesn't mean the group ,congregation is brainwashed ,if you believe that , I would say to you ,you have never been to a rock concert ,or any event where emotions were riding high!

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    paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

    Every denomination considers themsleves as the "only true christians" and others are cult.The pentecostals are followeres of Paul as other christians are; and the Christians don't follow Jesus.

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       Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Every denomination does not consider themselves the 'only true christians'

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