Poetry is an Art

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   lifeisbutadream4posted 13 years ago

   Hello Hubbers,
   I've been writing poetry since I was 8, now 26. MOst of my work is about love, pain and life's stories.
   I'm trying to expand my writing and and could use some feedback on new topics, niches, ideas.  Got a story that you want written in poetry forum?
   Send me your story and I'll make it an epic.
   Lifeisbutadream4

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      Jaggedfrostposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      May I add,
      as one who speaks
      parsed words
      a few bleak
      but more to the pleasure
      of those that play;
      that a poet
      begging for subjects
      is one who isn't ready
      needs something anyway
      for all of life
      a poet knows
      is fodder for expression
      a place to grow
      can Claude anything
      by watching
      viewing life as any one could
      learning the words
      making objectivity take flight
      putting pen to page
      communicating all the same

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         lifeisbutadream4posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         A "poet begging for subjects is one that isn't ready"?  Wow sounds like you have some deep rooted issues.  Did you really feel the need to slam me for trying to connect with people and get an idea to write about?   SOOOO sorry that you are such a natural that words just flow out of you as the shit from my diuretic ass. Is your life that miserable that you felt the need to say those things over a simple topic post such as mine?  Maybe your life is so miserable that you have nothing to do but sit on the computer all day and "blog" and social network and all that stupid shit.  People like you are exactly why I never wanted to share any of my written emotions and stories publicly. Look, I'm no proffessional, and since you seem to think you are, you should have given a freindly suggestion instead of trying to show off.

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            Pearldiverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Now.... if you could just follow Ralwus's earlier post and put THIS Experience into rhyme...
            There are some excellent poets on this site and as such, many different perspectives.. don't be disheartened.. some who you feel have criticized you are well qualified in the art and worth learning from.  I don't write in a conventional style either. So don't disappear under the shell... come out writing!

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            queenpoeticaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            lifeisbutadream - one of the hardest things to do when you write poetry is accept constructive criticism.  Don't be offended by what is offered to you in the way of criticism.  You don't have to take it, but then again you'd be wise at least to mull it over and take something positive from it.  I welcome any criticism, good or bad and take whatever I can from it.  If I don't like, I don't slam back at someone, but I don't see them as slamming me.   I've been writing and performing poetry for years, and have had poetry published but I've never been short of anything to write about.  I would agree with jaggedfrost on one hand, that there is so much to write about in life.  But on the other hand we can all dry up sometimes.  A huge chunk of poets begin to write when their hearts have been broken or when they are in some kind of emotional state.  But then when they calm down they think that the subject matter has dried up.  I know, I've been there.  But the best advice that was given to me, and that I can pass on to anyone who feels short of subject matter is this.  Read, read, read!  Read as much poetry as you can, and as much of other poet's work as you can.  Read old poets, dead poets, modern poets, anything you can get your hands on.  Read more than you write because you learn as much from reading good poetry as you do writing it.  BUT, you learn even more from reading bad poetry.  Another piece of advice, if I may.  Join a dedicated poetry forum such as the PKList.  I joined this about 12 years ago and am still a member.  There, you can post poems and it is the job of the experienced and not so experienced poets to give good constructive criticism.    And there, you can also give criticism.  Personally, your response tells me you still have much to learn, but learning can be exciting if you take on board criticism.  If you take all this as criticism, and want to reject it, then you will shut the door on some valuable experience and advice.

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   2uesdayposted 13 years ago

   Poetry, if writing is an art form then poetry can probably be considered an art.
   
   However I often notice when Hub hopping that sometimes there seems to be a 'delusion' that just by writing and splitting the text into short lines the person thinks they have written a poem or made a poetic statement.
   
   There are some fine poets here on HubPages too many to name, they deserve not to have the quality of their words swamped by 'emotional shopping-lists'. BTW I think a skilled poet could actually turn an 'emotional shopping list' into a poem.
   
   I am not writing this about the OP's poetry or about any particular piece I have read, it is just a comment on the concept of poetry as an art.
   
   Please do not read this in a "Who does she think she is" way.
   I admit that I still have a lot to learn when it comes to writing, poetry as well as other creative writing forms.
   
   I just would like to think poetry will continue to have a place here on the HubPages; but I am concerned that it might be squeezed out by some minimum word count idea or something like that with all the changes that are taking place. As personal hubs seem to be getting notified more frequently from comments I have read in the forums.
   
   I am at a loss as to what we are meant to do when Hub hopping, when I read a short list of sentences which are obviously important to somebody.

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      skip55posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Of course poetry is an art form. In fact, to me poetry is the highest art form. Each word has to count, to connect to the next, each has to be powerful. I think Shakespeare would, if questioned, say poetry is an art form.

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      queenpoeticaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      2uesday, don't be led into thinking that splitting text into short lines isn't poetry.  Most of my own poetry is written like that for many reasons.  One, it helps me pace myself when I perform it (most poets perform with their work in their hands).  Two, it gives it pace and helps the reader to hear it in the way the poet would speak it.  Three, that is my style and my voice.  Four, it keeps the reader engaged - long lines can sometimes lose people.  There are other reasons that would take an essay to write about.  But a poem should not be defined by it's line length.  There is much much more to poetry than that.  Think about the form Haiku - it's a very formal style of poetry and only has three lines in it.  The first and third lines have 5 syllables, the second line seven syllables.  Imagine that, a poem with only 17 syllables in it, and only three lines.  But it is still poetry.  My shortest poem is called writer's block and has 4 words in it.  Lemn Sissay, one of our greatest poets, writes the most beautiful love poem with just a handful of lines.

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   recommend1posted 13 years ago

   I would second 2uesday's words - but I would not be so reserved or delicate about it - what she says applies to the poem of yours that I read.  Poetry is an art, what I read is neither poetry or art.

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   Multimanposted 13 years ago

   I too would hate to see the poetry section go, though I write far more than poetry.  I agree that an exception to word count should be given.
   
   In answer to your delima, I find it to be the case with me, and because poetry can be very subjective, what is good poetry to one may be absolute nonsense to another.
   
   However, I have decided on hopping that I don't have to like the subject or whats said, but I have to subjectively still consider it poetry, whther unrhymed, or without rythm is fine, but it has to spark a kind of short hand to my soul.  Or I vote it down.

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   manlypoetrymanposted 13 years ago

   2uesday said:
   
   
   
   Poetry is being leaned out from Hubpages ? Say it ain't so!

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      recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      It is most unlikely that poetry will ever be unwelcome on Hubpages - it is one of the highest forms of language.  Also at a recent interview or seminar or whatever it was - the founder of Hubpages was really proud of the fact that we have the largest pool of poetry online here at Hubpages.  I think it is safe from HP,  whether it is safe from bad poets is another matter

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         ajcorposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         pleased to hear this...thanks

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      2uesdayposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think it best if I clarify this, as I do not want to end up being someone who fans the fires of a rumour, or even ignites the first spark.
      
      I am saying I would not like it to happen, not that it is on the cards' or that I have any knowledge that is likely to happen.
      
      What prompted this line of thought is the 'cut and thrust' of some of the current forum posts that are urging for word count restrictions on Hubs.
      
      I am aware that HubPages is a business and that it has pressures put on it because it is, so I do not wish to cause them problems.
      
      I do not know what the future holds even in my own life,and whatever happens on the Hub I would probably be one of the last to know.
      
      The thought behind my post was - there is poetry and then there is something I have seen at  times while hub-hopping, and calling it a poem does not make it poetry. It is not about it lacking rhyme or metre, subject or style, it is hard to define but I cannot be alone in noticing it.

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         Pearldiverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Rumor-Monger!!  Rumor-Monger!!    Shame on You Wednesday! 
         
         I'm sure you really don't have to justify yourself for being polite, nice and fair!
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         But..... Rumor-Mongering is pretty bad Mate!!
         
         
         
         @lyndre.... Good to hear that!
         
         If you get published....
         You can give up your Foot-Long Job at Subway

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            lyndreposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            

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         recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You are not alone in noticing the stuff that says it is poetry but isn't.  We have had this discussion many times about what is and is not poetry and just putting some emotional gut-spill into short lines and twiddling with the wording and dropping in a couple of thou's does not make it poetry.

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            Jaggedfrostposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            While everyone is clarifying I will bandwagon it for a moment. Poetic expression and poetry aren't the same thing, not even coming from me.  A tapestry isn't woven by a single thread so a poem isn't the substance of a single idea but a stacking of ideas.  I was responding to the original post and finding only one fault in the opening.  I figure that any true poet worth his salt can manufacture his or her tapestry from life as it happens and has no need to beg for topics.

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            queenpoeticaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Oh dear, short lines?  What is poetry?  The fact that these questions keep popping up tells me that poetry is very much alive and kicking.  Rather than criticise how long a poem should be, whether it rhymes, whether it has metre or rhythm perhaps it would be better to take each poem as a piece of art.  I don't particularly like Picasso and would question some of his work, but he was an artist.  There is no denying that.  Some of my own poetry has one word per line, and it is still poetry.  I know this because of my experiences of writing and teaching poetry.  I hope that my poetry is universal, that it is not offensive and that it speaks to someone.   I do not worry about word count, or the hub pages being a business and I have to write lots of words to ensure it stays up and running.  I write for the shear joy of it.  I'm confident in my own work and if someone says it isn't poetry, i can live with that.  We are all entitled to our opinions.  When I first started writing poetry I was very critical of what I thought was or wasn't poetry.  Nowadays I'm much more open minded.  I read everything I come across and yes, there are some things that I think are not very good, but that doesn't mean they can't be crafted into a good poem.  We learn from each other and we're never too old, or too long in the tooth to learn.  Crikey,I hope I never stop learning.

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               recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Oh dear  -  Thank you for your long response - but you clearly mis-read my post.
               
               I was clearly not advocating anything that warranted your response.  I was criticising those who think that poetry is ONLY breaking any text into short lines.   In the same way that I criticise those who think that any garbage written in overblown rhetorical rhyming lines is poetry.

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                  queenpoeticaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I would question then, how do you know that there are people who think that poetry is ONLY breaking any text into short lines - are you assuming that when you read a poem with short lines that the writer has just written anything and broken it down into short lines.  That's not very supportive of would-be poets.  Your criticism is very harsh.  Better to make suggestions of how someone could improve a piece of writing than to throw out comments such as "You are not alone in noticing the stuff that says it is poetry but isn't".  Who are any of us to say what is and what isn't poetry. 
                  
                  Yes it is a debate that comes up time and time again.  One that always stirs up the need in me to respond as I did.  That is allowed isn't it?
                  
                  If it isn't allowed then perhaps the hub pages are not for me.  Or perhaps I'll just continue to write my one word lines and post them anyway.  Whether people choose to read them or not is up to them, whether people choose to call them poems or not is also up to them - I'll continue to write whatever.  And I will also continue to support other poets.

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                     recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I don't think anyone mentioned your poems - I certainly didn't - so your emotional response is still totally unjustified.
                     
                     I am critical of many hubs that claim to be poetry but are not - and if that is harsh then I srongly believe that is the purpose of a writers site.  If everything that claims to be poetry but is pure emotional rubbish were removed then perhaps this site would not be so easily regarded as the low quality site that Google clearly has labelled it.
                     
                     As I clearly stated for anyone who can read - this is nothing to do with your poetry and nothing to do with aspiring poets.  This is just telling it like it is.

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                        queenpoeticaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        oh really?

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   Pearldiverposted 13 years ago

   Write me a poem about what it is to be a gifted poet lost in a bog of life without toilet paper, or the ability to write down the most inspirational words ever created!
   
   And Don't flush that opportunity

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      recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      After I sit and struggle to extrude a word
      that rhymes with sit or maybe word
      and reach for paper ready to mark it down
      I frown
      and call for help and new supplies
      near panic as I realise
      she has again gone shopping, no surprise!
      I come out instead frog legged stance
      to meet her coming back with all her friends by chance

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         Pearldiverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Oh Mate!!!  I was really hoping for a fictional experience!
         
         Rivvvottt

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            recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            It is fictional we don't have a sit on toilet

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   Bellamieposted 13 years ago

   Poetry, as I think of it, is something created from the heart and soul of the writer, not by the "seat" of ones pants, so to speak.  Great poems are one in a million.  I have been writing for over 40 years now and still don't know if I have written a single poem that would touch more than a handful of people.  Anyone that would minimize the beauty of poetry will probably never reach that height of creating something worth reading, let alone repeating.

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   ajcorposted 13 years ago

   I hope that poetry hubs are here to stay on  hubpages - poetry can be a quite beautiful, comic, clever or dramatic method of expressing a larger idea in a most succinct way. In fact if written in the normal manner,this larger idea or story could/would take about 500 words or more to create if written as say a hub....to remove the poetry genre from hubpages I feel would be both sad, uncreative and wrong minded - particularly if (as is suggested in the above comments) that the decision was be based simply on word count!
   I have always felt that hub pages is the social medium for the creative writer and poetry when considered in this light, is just as important as the short story/article/novel genre!

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   lyndreposted 13 years ago

   To coin the old phrase. Poetry is a painting done with words.
   
   I have been trying to educate myself in the field of poetry, following my few attempts at writing it here on hubpages.
   
   I find it a very good platform to be able to say a lot in a few words.

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    know oneposted 13 years ago

    The art of poetry for me lies in what has not been explicitly said. A poem that acts as a framework for emotions, ideas, and/or events is more preferential to me than a story which is merely presented in poetic form. I want to see through to the poet's heart... and perhaps see something of myself alongside it.
    
    The ability to rhyme does not necessarily a poet make. :-)

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    Jaggedfrostposted 13 years ago

    unless the writers is a simpleton and you a genius you are more likely to see yourself then the writer.

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    ralwusposted 13 years ago

    I have found that to write poetry, well or otherwise, one needs to have lived it. Manufactured poetry by requests just don't work. One needs to have lived and if it ain't in you screaming to get out, don't try. It just comes. Life and memories are my inspiration. The worst thing to happen to a poet is to be designated a Poet Laureate of State, then one is tied to what they want you to say.

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    Jaggedfrostposted 13 years ago

    then dear ralwus should we not get to living?  Feeding our selves with verse to expose? if a Poet Laureate I were made of State at least i would be paid to do just that.  Counting the opportunity to hid the truth amongst whatever else i am commissioned to write.  Betting on the fact that they won't know the difference.

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    ralwusposted 13 years ago

    LOL, well, it's a totally different thing if one desires recognition and money. All that is OK, I reckon. Go for it.

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    Jaggedfrostposted 13 years ago

    The money and recognition serves no one, much less the artist but can be used to open doors to realms of material that might not otherwise be at hand.

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    Multimanposted 13 years ago

    I recently had one of my poems get a message from hib that I had too many ads for the word count, dah!
    
    The ads were amazon books on poetry I had the full 10 books column.  The warning said basically if I dont reduce my ads I could end up having the hub removed.  I think there ought tobe a little common sense here, its poetry and the books are poetry books in the ad from amazon.
    
    I reduced the ads to three instead of 10.

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    Jaggedfrostposted 13 years ago

    lol While Hubpages doesn't mind people selling things along with their writing they try to weed out people who write just to advert per say.  I am sure you could write one of the mods and have an exception made or a clarification.  Heck you might even get them to make an exception on poetry as a whole due to the brevity of our expression as a matter of course.

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    maven101posted 13 years ago

    John Keats, my favorite poet, has said " If poetry comes not as naturally as the leaves to a tree, it had better not come at all”...
    I not sure you can " learn " poetry, other than to learn meter, rhythm, and other mechanical poetic structures...I must agree with Ralwus in that there must be some dimension of reality expressed through personal experience to truly create a poem of significance...That experience can take place in one's imagination...consider Emily Dickinson... a relative recluse that writ of romances almost totally out of whole cloth...yet they were so vivid in her mind that they " lived " through her prose...
    If you have been writing poetry since age 8 then, like Keats has observed, it comes naturally to you...Reread some of that childhood poetry and consider what inspired that child to put into a poem those words that expressed his fears, joys, or hidden yearnings...Good luck in finding your mojo, we all lose it from time to time...Larry

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    Tony DeLorgerposted 13 years ago

    Have been writing all my life and the written word to me is just another form of thought. If you can think, you can write about it. Therefore life is fodder for a poet. A great exercise is to go anowhere and just sit. Observe what's around you, be aware and start writing. You will soon discover that the world is a blank page for you to fill with words. I believe that for any writer, its not a matter of what to write about, its a matter of how to stop. Good luck on you journey.

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    Jaggedfrostposted 13 years ago

    One who over reacts to a critique isn't ready either. Responding in anger and ejecting all the venom that you mind is capable says mor of you then me. Since you didn't do your research first I will beg you humble pardon for differing with your high and exhalted fury at your innate perfections being questioned.  If you choose the cave I won't object though.

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    overchangerposted 13 years ago

    When writing poetry the critics will always try to knock you down;
    This do to the fact they are insecure with themselves;
    Perhaps a low self esteem issue of some sort;
    So they feel they have to be the control freek and take it out on the artist;
    Yet they themselves will not tolerate any criticism;
    They can dish it out but they can't take it !
    It's as if instead of going to church on Sundays maybe we should come to theit houses and worship them ?
    Critics will get everything back what's coming to them !
    So never elent in writing stand up on your true inner convictions against the onslaught of those false accuser's who are simply loser's in disguise;
    They want to seem like they are perfect yet inside they weird individuals who infiltrate our society !
    Simply don't listen to the critics and write what ever you like.

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       recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Nobody here is suggesting that you can't write what you like - you just can't call a thing poetry because you say it is - any more than you can call a cat a dog.
       
       The OP claims that the stuff he writes is poetry - and so the argument.  If he called it what it is there would be no argument.

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       queenpoeticaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       If you don't listen to the critics and write whatever you like, you will not develop as a writer.

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       queenpoeticaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       People who slam the critics are often not ready to learn.  The critics are not insecure, but will often be seen as insecure by someone who is not quite ready to learn from constructive criticism.  If someone is not ready to accept constructive criticism, that probably means they are a little unsure or insecure themselves.  Welcome criticism with open arms.  It is a gift given freely.

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    Pamela N Redposted 13 years ago

    I agree with 2uesday. Simply writing short sentences is not poetry.
    
    Unfortunately, I think many have only read work online and copy other bad representations.
    
    I am not a poet and I know it. Poetry has a rhythm, beat and/or rhyme to it.

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       queenpoeticaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       that's a huge gernalisation Pamela to assume that many have only read work online and copy other bad representations.   If you consider yourself not a poet, are you qualified to make such assumptions.  Or are you just jumping on the bandwagon of misunderstanding what poetry is really about.

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          recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Given the low audience numbers for poetry - and the "clearly-not-poetry" that finds its way into many so-called poetry hubs - it is maybe a fair generalisation.
          
          If rhyme and metre are what Pamela wants in poetry then that is her choice and it may not be right in a global sense but it is not wrong per se.
          
          We have had this discussionmany times in these forums - and what IS poetry has been pretty much impossible to define - what is NOT poetry is much easier to see.  And the sooner the rubbish that calls itself poetry is removed from HP the more respect poetry will get on this site - and maybe the more visits from the relatively small pool of people who still cherish it.

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             queenpoeticaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             If my comments rattle your cage so much, then there's really no point in having any discussion with you.  Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, but everyone is entitled to write what they consider to be poetry.  If you don't like what you consider not to be poetry, then remain narrow minded and blinkered and don't learn anything.  that's your prerogative.
             
             whether or not there are low audience numbers for poetry or not, does not make it a fair generalisation, rather an unfair one.  It stands to reason that there are more writers out there that don't write poetry, but within the subject matter that people write there will be minority groups.  Does that mean they shouldn't write.
             
             I agree with you that what is poetry is impossible to define, that's what makes the debate lively and keeps it alive.  But who are you to judge what should be called rubbish and be removed from the web pages.  Everyone, including yourself is entitled to write on the hub pages.  Don't be so quick to judge people that want to learn. 
             
             PS  I think you keep missing my points, you don't seem to refer to my comments other than to slam would be poets that are here to learn like the rest of us.  Don't give them such a hard time.
             
             I'd be interested to see what you thought about any of my short liners.  I'm a big girl, I can take criticism.  Go on, dare you to read and comment.

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                recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                It is quite unnecessary to attack me personally over this - I am far from narrow minded or blinkered.  The reason I don't address some of your points is that I can agree with many of them.
                
                You think you are defending different kinds of poetry from an attack by me but in fact I am aware of and would encourage any form of poetry - the keyword here is form of poetry.
                
                If you think I am referring to your poetry when I talk about emotional gut-spilling etc I am not. 
                
                I am attacking those who think that making a thing LOOK like poetry makes it so, and those who think that making a series of obscure fragments line up on the page is somehow metaphysical - when they are simply confused about what they are thinking, never mind saying in words.
                
                I have looked at one of your poems and if you like I would be pleased to criticise it for you, I am qualified for a few different things and the ability to make informed and educated criticism of poetry is one of them.

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                   queenpoeticaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   I think the sad thing is that if you agreed with some of my points, why didn't you say so.  I wasn't defending different poetry from an attack by you - I was defending it from harsh criticsim from yourself and others.  The key word for you is form of poetry.  The key word for me is encouragement through constructive criticism.  The hub pages are a place to learn.  If you say that someone's work is rubbish rather than tell them how they can improve it, you will put them off writing anything at all.  Better to help people improve than put them off surely. 
                   
                   When I read a thread such as this one where lots of people make unqualified statements possibly because they may lack knowledge of a subject or may have limited knowledge of a subject, I feel that it is necessary to get a balanced view of the topic.  It would have been more helpful if you had at least pointed out the bits you agreed with.  Had you done so, I wouldn't have been as harsh on you as I felt you were being on would be poets.
                   
                   I'm more than happy for you to read and critique my poetry.  That is how I learned to craft my poems.  I will always look at constructive criticism and take from it whatever I can.  I may not always agree with it, but I will always look at it with the hope of learning something.  I welcome your criticism.  I also hope to read more of your stuff while you are here on the hub pages.

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             Pamela N Redposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Here is a website that defines it better than I can. It doesn't take a poet to know what good poetry is. You just know what moves you to emotion and paints a portrait in your mind.
             
             http://www.poetry.org/whatis.htm

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