God's ultimate sacrifice...

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topgunjagerposted 13 years ago
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I'm a little confused. God sent himself as the form of his only son to die for our sins and go back to heaven right after. I'm having trouble understanding what God has sacrificed in this action. How can you call it a sacrifice knowing that you'll live through it and not lose anything because of this and go on living as a God?
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  DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am confused as you are...LOL
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  Midnight Oilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But who wants to live for ever? Even God himself must have an expiry date.
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  Titen-Sxullposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Great questions. One also has to wonder why God requires blood sacrifices at all. What sort of bizarre primitive system is that? I mean I forgive people all the time without needing my only son to be brutally murdered (I don't have a son but you get the idea )
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It gets even more bizarre when you consider that following the process logically, god, (who made him again?) came back as his own son then killed himself to pay for the sins of his own creation who he blames for the faults he gave them.
  I couldn't sell that to any of my kids, not even the 5 year olds!
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  Titen-Sxullposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And then Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane begs his Father to let the 'cup pass'. Why is he arguing with himself? And if he's all knowing than surely he saw this coming ever since breathing life into Adam and Eve. The slightest amount of thought and it all comes tumbling down like a house of cards.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, a wee bit hard to see the omnipotence I feel!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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  goldenpathposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus Christ is the literal son of the Father - separate and individual. The Father and the Son are distinct and physical beings. The Son volunteered his sacrifice and was the only one that could atone for our shortcomings.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So what did the son sacrifice?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That makes little more sense to me than my version of it.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I just assumed that you lose something that can't be brought back when you sacrifice something. But that's just me.
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  goldenpathposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not necessarily. Look at the magnitude of the Atonement. Christ did go through with it when he could have easily commanded the elements to wipe the holy land clean of the whole bunch. The transgression of Adam and Even took on mortality thus the sacrifice must heal from that state. The children of man needed to and did condemn Him as the lowest of man.
  
  The people sacrificed their core integrity.
  
  The earth shook and rendered up it's dead as a sacrifice.
  
  The pain and anguish of God was in knowing of the emotional and spiritual weight taken on by the Christ on behalf of all man. The physical pain was secondary, mortal and compared to infinity very brief.
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why does a god need all those theatrics? Can't it do like a normal human can and simply forgive? I think Christians don't give their god enough credit.
  Perhaps it's a lack of faith. Or they worship the wrong god.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And, I would say that "literal" part is something you assume.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why is it that every time an atheist comes up with a logical argument it's classified as being too "literal" . Do we really have to twist and interpret everything that's wrong with a lot of the scenarios in the bible just for it to make sense?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't even talking to you, as my post was with regards to what Goldenpath said. Re-read his post, then get back to me. I'm not twisting anything that isn't already twisted/distorted to begin with.
  
  Jesus' teachings were based on metaphors(the use of words that describe something else) and religious parables(the only language available).
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My apologies, I was under the impression that I can have a discussion with anyone in this thread. I now realize that you are the man and cannot be spoken too unless you speak first.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, but calling me an Atheist insinuates that my problem is diametrically opposing(other side of the same coin) what was said.
  
  As Goldenpath stated "literal" was the word HE used. I only said it was something he assumed true, but isn't in fact honestly true.
  
  Your statement was unnecessary and not relevant to what I said.
  
  So, since your statement was unnecessary and not relevant to what I said, then maybe you can tell me why you bothered to make the statement to begin with?
  
  You can talk to whomever you choose, but try not to be foolish in doing so. Just a thought.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't call you an atheist, I was referring to myself, I didn't mean to be foolish, It wasn't my intention to insult your superior intellect.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Top, quit with the supposed mocking. I've never claimed to be superior in intellect. So, you making a statement with regards to it is just spiteful.
  
  As for "why" Atheists do anything is irrelevant, because most Atheists fail to see that they are part of the same coin, just the opposite side of said coin.
  
  Atheist always look at the bible or religious scripture with a literal take, because they are used to looking at reality in a literal sense.
  
  It's unfortunate that the average Atheist has the same problem as most Christians do.....failure to realize Jesus' teachings are metaphors and religious parables, which is why context is always destroyed.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ahhh ok, I gues i was being too literal. I'll just try to interpret why it's good to give your other cheek to smack then like Jesus said. Thanks for the insight=)
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  TahoeDocposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If Jesus and God were literally 2 separate beings, wouldn't that make Christianity polytheistic?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity deals with "the Father"(God), "the Holy Spirit"(mysticism gone awry) and "Jesus, Son of God", as part of a Trinity.
  
  Does that answer your question?
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  TahoeDocposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nope. The word 'literal' made it at least 2 gods.
  
  Otherwise, I'm familiar with the 'trinity' concept, which is another issue, altogether. If they are one and the same - or 3 parts of the same 'godhead'- we are back to the problem of God requiring a blood sacrifice which can only be satisfied by sacrificing himself (in a horrible manner) to himself to 'forgive' the sins of the beings he created, knowing they would sin and knowing the sacrifice would have to be made.
  
  Of course, if you believe that the bible is metaphorical, it's easier to get around these problems. If I wasn't an atheist, I'd definitely go the metaphorical route and I think this is the mistake that some Christians made. It's impossible to reconcile the contradictions and nastiness of the bible with a literal interpretation.
  
  Of course, if it's metaphorical, then you have the problem of interpretation - everyone, for good or 'evil' can interpret the bible any way they want, and they do. Very convenient.
  
  Thus, I reject it altogether. Problem solved
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually TahoeDoc, I think we both made a mistake, my mistake was compounded by your mistake(assumption).
  
  Goldenpath is Mormon, not part of Christianity. His "literal", the word itself was my issue with his statement.
  The idea, wholly is ridiculous.
  It's not the bible. It's only Jesus' direct teachings to his disciples that matter. Everything else in the book can be thrown away. Decode Jesus' teachings, reveal the truth of his message.
  The mistake is applying literal meanings to words that are actually describing something else, makes everything out of context.
  Actually it's not, rip out the 5 books that belong to the Jewish Torah and S/Paul's interpretation of Jesus' teachings are false, because they are based on the twisted/distorted version. Anything S/Paul offers is poisoned.
  
  Thus, bringing me back to ripping Jesus' teachings out of religion.
  Correct, which is the reason humanity has yet to get by the "God Concept" to begin with.
  I don't reject it. Nothing to reject. It's utter nonsense, unless you get to the bottom of Jesus' teachings.
  
  To love self and others, and to have compassion and mercy for those who do not know better or how to.
  
  As I've said before, Jesus had nothing to do with religion, but the only place you can find his teachings are in religion. His teachings were about Life and How one masters self.
  
  But, I'm glad you solved your issue with. I did many moons ago myself.
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually it would. God, the Son, the holy spirit, and Satan. Along with all the other sons of god mentioned in the bible and conveniently turned into angels later on.
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Heresy! lol...
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  DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So you believe in at least 2 different Gods? One is the Father and One is the Son?
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  goldenpathposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God the Eternal Father is the vein through which all power and authority flows from. Jesus Christ receives his authority and power through the Father. He is in the express image of the Father. Father already worked out his mortality and is now clothed with a tangible body. Jesus Christ has also worked out his mortality and accomplished the work he was foreordained to carry out. He was the only one who could have accomplished the Atonement. Lucifer couldn't because he was not only not the firstborn but his pride prevented that authority and power to be accepted before the Father.
  
  I don't believe in the "three in one" scenario. I simply believe that the godhead are three distinct persons who all work in perfect harmony for the mission of the salvation of man.
  
  There are many gods and goddesses. Our object of worship is the Eternal Father and also Jesus Christ.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok.
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  mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  To start with Jesus said '"I tell ye are all gods"" children of the most hight"
  every human is a son of god so this is Christian propaganda which is false .
  
  The sacrifice here was Jesus gave his life for the truth, it was a great sacrifice no doubt about that.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What life?
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  mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Human life. Why should he suffer and be tortured?
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you might want to look deeper to that answer my friend.
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  mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Give up your life for a cause and I will agree with you.Are you ready to be insulted, abused and tortured for your principles.? dont think so.
  Taking is very easy doing is very difficult.
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  mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Even enlightened ones suffer and feel pain like any human being ,they have merged with god but as long as one is in the body he has all human feelings and pain just like another.
  
  Like Paramhansa Yogananda said "grieve not for me when I die cause I go to a land where there is no excruciating heartache, broken bones or disease." meaning as log as he is in the human body he is subject to suffering like any other human being.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and your point is???
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  mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You asking me or topgunjager?
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was quoting you.
  I guess that's pretty clear I was asking you!
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  mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well read the title of the thread.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The Creator-God Allah YHWH does not make a sacrifice; it is the humans who do; the Creator-God accepts the sacrifices if done as per his commandments and with sincerity of heart or rejects it if done with selfish motives.
  
  One could remember in this connection the example of Cain and Abel; the sons of Adam mentioned in Quran.
  [5:28]- [5:33] Chapter 5
  
  http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=27
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The Creator-God never said that; it is a wrong concept of the scribe.
  
  If the Creator-God has loved his son; which he never had; he would have not liked to kill him; it is a cruel act to kill one's son.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong concept?
  
  As opposed to what "correct" concept?
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Killing one's sons or daughters is a wrong concept. Don't you want to be in the image of the christian-god?
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You don't understand God's concept.
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
The cool thing about you is your avatar suits these type of OP's. Arms crossed, leaning back in a kind of 'So, what have you got to say about that.' pose. Very confrontational, even without the question.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think it matters what my pose is
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No. I'm just saying.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ok
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SEEKER OF TRUTH57posted 13 years ago
The sacrifice was a perfect and sinless God taking upon Himself the filth and garbage of a hideous and depraved creation and allowing Himself to be murdered by the same. What love could be stronger?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Would that be the same perfect sinless god who wiped out all but a handful of mankind because he had a psychotic episode?
  That filth you speak of was supposedly the product of his perfection.
  Out of perfection comes imperfection? I don't think so!
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  Titen-Sxullposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm curious as to how a perfect God manages to create something which is imperfect to begin with. How can sin exist if God truly is All Good and All Powerful. To suggest that sin can exists suggests power that is separate from God does it not? How can something which possesses all power not possess all the power that exists? So you see how it can get confusing...
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
I'm interested in how you see the promises that jesus is said to have made Cags.

And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

The prayers didn't get answered as stated that I can see anyway, so does that mean he was lying or was it Matthew?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Earnest, I knew you would do something like this.
  Well, let me sum this up, as best I can, without using too many words- It's about faith in oneself.
  
  The fig tree(obstacle) was done means that it was an accomplishment for the individual's actions.
  
  The second one- "mountain" is again an obstacle, and if one believes in oneself enough, then they would possess the power to literally change the world.
  
  Prayer is a communion with self. Believing in self and you will receive.
  
  He wasn't lying. His message, as you so ripely pulled out of religion, was still out of context, because of the "metaphors" and religious language used. But, I think I covered.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is it really that hard to understand that if one believes in oneself that they would possess the power to literally changer the world? Does Jesus really have to be all poetic and dramatic to explain to primitive men that if you believe in yourself enough, you can make things happen.?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, you're missing a piece of information with regards to the time that Jesus' teachings take place.
  
  Where was humankind on the evolutionary scale? How far a long was the mind? At what capacity? What conscious level?
  
  Many people Jesus taught to, did not even know, they themselves were alive? They had no awareness of self.
  
  I hope that helps.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not trying to insult you, but how do you know all of this? How reliable are you as a source? It just seems that you make up all your answers and make it look like it's factual.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know, because like I said, I did the research for specific underlying problems of the world. I found my own answers and I explain to those who want to listen. Similar to the same attitude Jesus had toward religion. Religion=False God.
  
  To recognize, your own true potential, you must believe and have faith in your abilities. You must be honest with yourself about being honest with yourself. So, if you have to second guess a decision, is when you check with yourself about being honest.
  
  You choose to sway from honesty toward dishonesty, it just doesn't happen. It's a choice. That's what the Conscience is for.
  Reliability as a source? You're kidding right. If my words make no sense, then ask questions. If my words make sense, then why question them?
  My answers- make sense or don't make sense? when you have asked your questions and the questions stop, then what more would you like to believe?
  
  Do try to remember though, when asking questions (a) you asked (b) all questions have answers and some questions will have no need to be answered.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ahh, so I guess the most brilliant minds on the planet like, Sam Harris, Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins are dead wrong.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not saying any of them are wrong or right. Their knowledge is based on the same knowledge I have available to me.
  
  The collective knowledge that has been accumulated over century after century has been documented for anyone to read.
  
  If you are able to grasp a worldview, then you should be able to see a path to peace, not only for the world, but also for the individual.
  
  Can you see a path to peace? Do you know what the foundation must be?
  
  Just curious.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do see a path to peace, that's one of the reasons why I became an atheist. I used to be very religious, but then I decided to open up my mind and stop myself from being driven by my religious beliefs. Try it sometime, it'll be easier to decide between right and wrong, it'll also help you from recognizing what morality really is and not just justifying the obvious evil all the time.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cool, then I have only one question- Where does your path begin?
  Good for you.
  Okay, your statement here is obviously out in left field somewhere.
  
  Let me start by saying, I have no religion, so please don't go there. If you read my previous posts, my research was partially based with religion, because religion is part of our collective knowledge. I don't know what it has to do with being right or wrong. Maybe you didn't read clearly enough into what I said.
  
  As for recognizing morality? I'm sure you checked with your conscience before you entered your post, and I also know, that you past over your conscience, to make said post.
  
  Good and Evil are human social concepts. What is good for humankind? What is Bad "Evil" for humankind? It's based on the "survival of the species".
  
  So, and you next complaint would be, what exactly?
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  DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cags...From what I am reading...You and I have similar thoughts.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the thoughtful reply Cags. That is a lot better than I'm used to on the religious forums.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have many others.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Back with another question Cags, what do you understand this to mean.
  Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Earnest, asking me to answer the same question over again, isn't going to get a different answer.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know they look similar Cags, So the same for Mark as Matthew then?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes Earnest. The one you just gave me is similar to the other one, but the message is the same.
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TahoeDocposted 13 years ago
Cagsil said "To love self and others, and to have compassion and mercy for those who do not know better or how to."

Cagsil - I find this very interesting, because this is my philosophy as well. But, I came to it on my own with no influence from Jesus.

So, I'm sincerely curious then, do you believe that the consequence of not following this path is Hell or some other eternal punishment?

My consequence is uneasieness or disrespect for myself. No hell. But, I'm a really, really critical judge of my own honesty and behavior and treatment of others and I always strive to do better, without the fear of hell. I'm interested to see what you feel are the consequences of not living up to this standard?

Because it sounds like we believe a lot of the same things about how to behave and treat others - you with Jesus' teachings and me without.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Anyone who is truly honest with themselves will reach this state of mind and understand it is truth. The world would be so much better if people practiced it.
  Again, you're dealing with Metaphors and religious language.
  
  Jesus' teachings metaphor "hell" - actually meant "grave" and/or "buried in ground". He understood death as hell, because of his value on life.
  
  Just like- "heaven"- it's Earth and no other place. If Peace existed on Earth and Humankind took care of Earth? Don't you think it would be heavenly.
  I'm no longer uneasy with myself. I've come to love myself, so I accept myself and my faults.
  
  Being a critical judge of yourself, should only prove to you, that you have only one authority and that's You. Measuring your honesty isn't something you should have to think about. You should have it ingrained in you at some point. My behavior? Well, it could be better and I do strive to make myself better. Which, I'm glad you do as well. The consequences of not living up to the standard? What standard specifically are you talking about?
  
  I mean, Moral code of conduct? There is a limit on moral standards. You can live your life by your conscience or not. If you strictly live by your conscience, then you are at the highest moral ground you obtain. The consequences for not doing so? I guess that depends mostly on you and how you let it effect/affect(both apply) you.
  It appears so. I spent 15+ years researching as child into adult, learning my religion. It was a request of my mother and I honored it. When I was 22, I dove into deeper research and accumulated some thousands pages of information. And, within my research I found Jesus' underlying message. Some people seem to think he is a Mystic of some sort, but he was the most intellectual conscious minded individual to ever walk the Earth.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Did Jesus tell you all of that? Or is that how you interpreted it? How do you know you got everything right?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Again, with the mocking. Is there something wrong with what I said?
  My research isn't interpretation. My research was involved in getting to the bottom underlying problems of the world. My research led me through religions, history, science and philosophy. It's not difficult to figure out, once you have the ability to see past self.
  I'm not claiming to be right. I am simply explaining what I've learned and how I learned it. I don't speak about experiences I don't have. It's non-productive.
  
  If you disagree with anything I said or typed, then ask yourself "why?"
  
  The highest moral ground is our conscience. The best spirituality and only spirituality required in one's life is Love. Anyone telling you different is blowing smoke.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not mocking (not this time=) Just curious as to how believers are so sure about everything based on "oh that's what they said, so it must be true"
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Indoctrination. Kids being tortured with religion as they develop. It's all about answering the mysteries of the world around oneself. The believers believe they have a good enough handle on their understanding of the bible and/or their religion, that they choose ignorance over learning.
  
  They rationalize what they need from it and discard what isn't applicable. They then reinforce it with their faith in themselves. And, then call it "faith in god" and say that they "believe in god".
  
  Almost anything can be rationalized, but things that are rationalized that do not come from honesty are in fact dishonest and rationalized for dishonest reasons.
  
  Rationalizing an action requires your conscience to review the action before it takes place and measure it for honesty. If you go against your conscience, then you are dishonest.
  
  I hope I explained that good enough.
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  kmackey32posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just stopd to see what you posted here....lol Gees I hate these forums...gay,,,,,lmao
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
Let me put a little context on what was happening at Jesus' time- the primary power/rulers/leaders, were all mystic/god-kings/oracles and people who claimed to have a connection with a god.

Jesus knew it was false, however, for him to teach his teachings, he used religion's language to hide his teachings, otherwise, he would be killed, because he wasn't teaching "religion's" laws.

God= in Jesus' teachings is nothing more than a metaphor for self. Our mind and our conscious awareness gives each of us, full control over our own life. No higher authority required.
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  dingdondingdonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Very interesting way of looking at it. I've never heard anyone put it this way before.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
God's ultimate sacrifice...

The Creator-God does not make a sacrifice. He does not need a sacrifice by the humans; He does not eat or drink so he does not need a sacrifice. It is the humans who need sacrifice to show their sincerity towards Him; the blood and flesh does not reach Him; only the good intention and sincerity of a person reach Him:

[22:37] And among the sacred Signs of Allah We have appointed for you the sacrificial camels. In them there is much good for you. So mention the name of Allah over them as they stand tied up in lines. And when they fall down dead on their sides, eat thereof and feed him who is needy but contented and him who supplicates. Thus have We subjected them to you, that you may be thankful.
[22:38] Their flesh reaches not Allah, nor does their blood, but it is your righteousness that reaches Him. Thus has He subjected them to you, that you may glorify Allah for His guiding you. And give glad tidings to those who do good.
[22:39] Surely, Allah defends those who believe. Surely, Allah loves not any one who is perfidious or ungrateful.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=37

Human sacrifice was started by the supertitionists on their own without any commandment from the Creator-God Allah YHWH; and it got abolished by Him through Abraham.
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
Good to know DS.

I know, this particular "viewpoint" isn't common knowledge.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is a viewpoint, that can only be found with an openmind and indepth research(at least in my case). In my experience, very few people are willing to accept it. And, even fewer are even willing to try to understand it.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  In my experience people don't have to accept it.
  
  They read the words, the impact has already been made, beyond their own comprehension and they will remember it being said, regardless of whether or not, they want to remember.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Very True.
  
  I actually meant,when people ask what or how I believe concerning certain things. When I try to explain, I get the whole "bible" explainations on why I am wrong.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey DS,
  
  I know the feeling. It's odd how people constantly use the bible as a reference. But, then again, not many people actually understand that the book is out of context to begin with.
  
  They also don't know the background of their own religion. The reason they don't know is because they are told to not bother with it and simply accept it as truth.
  
  I'm sorry, I don't accept anything, unless truth can be discerned.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed!!
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, it did occur to me. I saw a lot more validity in what jc was supposed to have done, as opposed to the god of the OT. I went back to study jesus during three years of therapy. I also thought he was speaking of the "god" within. My investigations into his life went in another direction and I decided it was unlikely he ever existed.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, he did exist and other people have presented articles that point to it. So, that actually isn't in doubt. Some people have trouble discerning which things to incorporate and which ones are not likely, but most of the time, what isn't known is humankind's evolutionary scale, with regards to time.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe that he did exist.
  I am as always, willing to consider any evidence to the contrary though.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
One could remember in this connection the example of Cain and Abel; the sons of Adam mentioned in Quran.
[5:28]- [5:33] Chapter 5

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=27

The Creator-God Allah YHWH does not make a sacrifice; it is the humans who do; the Creator-God accepts the sacrifices if done as per his commandments and with sincerity of heart or rejects it if done with selfish motives.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Anyone sacrificing anything to a supposed god should have their head examined.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why? Please
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why? Please. Because there isn't a god, therefore the sacrifice is meaningless. Killing an animal for meaningless reasons, for which, has nothing to do with the survival of the individual? It's absurd. And, one should have their head examined for doing such an absurd action.
  
  Is that better?
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The Atheists also kill animals; for eating purposes. Don't they?
  
  Why they kill them mercilessly? Please
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Killing animals for eating is survival of self. That actually means something to some people.
  Animals are the source for human survival. Slaughtering animals for eat is based our needs, so as to continue existing.
  
  Killing animals for sacrificing to a god is waste of animals. Unless you consume it, then at least it wouldn't be wastes.
  
  Just killing it to pay tribute or give thanks or because you believe you have to, is just down right dumb. It goes to show how ignorant some cultures are. It's not ignorance on my part, because I understand why they do it. And the actions are irrational to begin with and mostly made from fear as well.
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The truthful religion instructs to eat the animals yourself or feed it to the poor, those who are much in need and cannot buy meat from the market.
  
  Quran makes it very clear; that the Creator-God does not need the sacrifice ;only the intent or sincerity of the person reaches Him, not the meat or the blood:
  
  [22:37] And among the sacred Signs of Allah We have appointed for you the sacrificial camels. In them there is much good for you. So mention the name of Allah over them as they stand tied up in lines. And when they fall down dead on their sides, eat thereof and feed him who is needy but contented and him who supplicates. Thus have We subjected them to you, that you may be thankful.
  [22:38] Their flesh reaches not Allah, nor does their blood, but it is your righteousness that reaches Him. Thus has He subjected them to you, that you may glorify Allah for His guiding you. And give glad tidings to those who do good.
  
  http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=37
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So you sacrifice animals, but are thankful to Allah and eat the animal you killed? Is that correct?
  
  The reason you've given is righteousness.
  
  A status you have no right to claim. How ironic.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't claim it; it is the Creator-God who accepts it if one is righteous; else He may not accept it.
  
  I quoted the example of Cain and Abel; son of Adam, from Quran.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, you do claim it, because you know the outcome of your actions gives you. Your actions of paying homage is your claim.
  
  Oh well. Either way, it's moot, because it's off topic.
  
  The original topic, has nothing to do with sacrificing animals.
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  topgunjagerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That makes perfect sense par, i see how the muslim people are just willing to share what they have with others.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Paar,
  
  During the HAJJ. There is a requirement to perform a sacrifice...either done by the pilgrim themselves or paid to be done for the pilgrim. Is the sacrifice used for food? I think the question is, isn't the self sacrifice enough? Why would there be an extra requirement of animal sacrifice? What purpose is served for killing of an animal, unless it is for food?
  
  And I apologize in advance if I happen to offend. I am not as strong in my knowledge of Muslim beliefs as I am in other belief systems.
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topgunjagerposted 13 years ago
possible effects of sunny d and rum perhaps?
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