Do You Think Religion Impedes the Evolution of Consciousness?
- Emile Rposted 12 years ago
0Why is it always an argument with you?
Ok. You stated your case. Thanks for playing.
Melissa, I do not expect people to agree with me. For goodness sake, yours is a wonderful argument. Thank you, thank you. I had no idea when I wrote that it was my opinion it would be perceived as claiming some truth that needed to be disputed. It's speculation, just like your religion is.
Again, thank you for presenting a wonderful argument. But, I'm really in search of a discussion; not here to push a view.I'm sorry you see it that way. I see it as your attempt to debate. To argue the point is attempting to make you see things my way. I don't want to do that, I want your opinion.if it generates a point for discussion, great. If we are at odds, then it gives cause for debate.
I don't want to debate you. End of debate.
human consciousness grows via TV
How do you prove human consciousness is collective?
I would so love to meet you kess. Only then could I make a judgment as to the validity of the claim. But, if it makes you feel any better, I do acknowledge my ignorance on the subject.
Yep. That's me. Ignorant
But you sell yourself short kess. Outward appearance is nothing. Look at the Christ. The son of a common laborer. No education that anyone spoke of. If someone like him showed up today, sharing profound information; the religious would scoff at him. They've made up their minds already as to what truth is. No further information required.
If I met you, I wouldn't judge by outward appearance. If you truly had found a spiritual knowledge I think it would emanate from your words. Your words would connect on a spiritual level. And one would be able to see how that knowledge had transformed your entire being.
You do talk a mystical game. Actions and some type of discernible evidence must accompany words and those, unfortunately, are lacking in an online forum.To answer the one question of why people didn't recognize a truly spiritual person; I always assumed that it was because they had not embarked on a spiritual journey of their own. If you don't seek, you'll not be in a position to find. Or something like that.
I believe it is simply a difference of definition of what you have labeled the 'fluffy stuff'. When I speak of consciousness I'm not speaking of what we are aware of, of anything that can be measured or has even been proven to exist. It's entirely speculation, which doesn't sound like your cup of tea.
I would go further in explanation, but I doubt you are interested in my thoughts on this. Again, the miscommunication was entirely my fault.
You got all that just from this 1 forum? Oh my....
You need to spread out more. Try other forums first before making such naive statement. You really just pointed out the fact that your opinion is based off a bunch of nothingness.Thanks for posting. It's interesting that you had nothing of value to add to the discussion, but were courteous enough to post anyway.
Lizzie, I was gonna ask you a question, but I checked my "list," and...ooops...you're on it...
So I won't! 
:
QwarkWhat list? Is it your black book? Did you write my name down and cross it out?
This is a poor start on your quest for spirituality.
What makes you think it is not possible that consciousness is interconnected?Immensely.
You can simply say that it is nothing you've ever allowed your mind to ponder. There's no shame in the fear of letting your mind wander through possibilities ATM. That's how radically new discoveries are made sometimes, but only by those not afraid of failure.I wasn't the one talking about hippos flying. That would be foolish. That might be the problem here. Are there people who aren't capable of discerning the difference between a fool's errand and spirituality?
Hmm. I'll have to keep my eye's open and see if that's how it all pans out with you.
- Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago0
Hi Mr. Mason.
What's the 2.3 %, and what's the reason? In your opinion.Distortion, much?
Advanced in many ways, including spiritual? Yes sir, hatred does fill this world and 2/3 of the world's population is religious in some manner. So, it looks like you folks, don't like others. And, even on some level, YOU see yourself better than others. Which is ALL ego. And, when you cannot see past yourself(ego), then you do more damage than good, regardless of what you do.
Right, and you do all of with your ego. So, you do for yourself. You don't do it to improve the people around you. Which the shame on your character is highlighted to those around you.
How nice of you.I would definitely agree that the first step in the search is to search within yourself and to eliminate the need for conflict. Love would, of course, be the expected by product. All this is only my humble opinion.
Very well stated cagsil.
Don't speak of the river. I've been begging my husband to go canoing. He says it's too hot.
I hope you enjoy your swim. And I agree with you. The world is full of those who would attempt to enslave our thoughts. It is definitely not only religion.
Sherlock:
your comments have lifted my "spirit!"
Could I entice you into joining me in joyous celebration by embibing in some intoxicating "spirit" I just brewed in my still out back?
We can sit and become filled with the "spirit!"
Amen and amen... ...oh...and HALLELUJAHHHHH!
Qwark:Hello qwark. What's this? You step into a thread, say you've got moonshine and don't invite all of us? What's up with that? You think simply because the rest of us are talking crazy we've reached our limit and already had too much to drink?
- Marie Brannonposted 12 years ago0
Marie:
WE have a definition of "consciousness," but until we can figure out how the "human computer" works (and we will) we'll just have to grab hold of the definition and accept the fact that our level of "it" is, uniquely, just much greater than that of all other life.
Our level of "consciousness" is just a result of the serendipitous processes of "natural selection.
We're much too young a species to figger it out yet.:
All monotheistic thought and action is regressive.
QwarkOur level of "consciousness" is just a result of the serendipitous processes of "natural selection.
oh yah, its all just random
and they say christians don't have all the answers
Really?
You know James, I don't have the education you have, but I think you are purposely trying to make things more complicated than needs to actually be. I am aware, by our many conversations and it has shown me that is exactly what you are doing. Attempting to make it more?
When it's actually not as complicated as you make it out to be.
I'll agree it's driven by self, but the understanding one has of self is what matters. To know our limitations. To know what we are capable of. To absorb/discover knowledge and discern truth about our own life, with limitless wisdom.
Consciousness of the self is to indulge what already belongs to the person -knowledge. Knowledge is the limitation or better said a self imposed limitation and perhaps an slight understanding of what 'could be'. To achieve 'beyond consciousness/ beyond knowledge/ beyond belief (tongue-in-cheek there), one must -from all angles- remove the self, ego, the Theos and conditions/ deliberate applications of that knowledge. Else philos/ wisdom/ understanding cannot be itself. It becomes suppressed by necessity, by the many threads of thought, because knowledge is the processor of understanding, not the producer of it.
James.
reason and logic have nothing to do with how God operates, for instance, marching around the walls of Jericho, blowing trumpets and yelling at the walls, was indeed a hard pill for the generals of the army to swallow - yet it worked. Abraham and Sarah conceiving Issac at age 100 was against the grain of how things work. Crossing the red sea, there are so many ways of God clearly demonstrating that His ways are not our ways.
Just sayin.If any of it had happened.
just sayin.what i can't figure out, is why you even bother 'just sayin'
Ha! You aren't the first, Ray, and certainly not the last. Twenty years ago, when I suggested this concept, a half dozen seasoned professors verbally -and if able- literally would have stoned me in the square. Likewise, even recently, a host of Theos prisoners on both ends too.
Precisely! and another one gets it. Yes and yes. Humans do know why, what, whom and how. They have just forgotten. This is what I termed the Adamic Inception. Indulgence of the consciousness/ their minds/ knowledge within, resulted in a massive bombardment of genetically provided information, that -for lack of a better word- made them go mad. Gave them a form of amnesia. Liken it to Alzheimer, in reverse of course, with exactly the same effect! Information overload.
Creating purpose without understanding purpose, its practical applications, and source 'code' so to speak, results in disaster. Ad Exemplica : humanity assumed between 250,000 or 6,550 solar cycles -- and counting.
I don't want to flood Emile's thread with this topic, but would be fun to discuss it at some point.
James.James. Flood away. You're thoughts are always interesting.
Isn't this just an assumption?
So, you are presently suggesting that humankind isn't sane?
To create a purpose, one must first understand what it means to do so and then do so.
From what you've said above, it's already known. And, it cannot be known, before creating it to begin with. You cannot understand something you do not know anything about or recognize. I understand purpose and that it only matters with regards to my life and what my actions do with regards to other people. It wasn't known for the first 30 years of my life, until I decided to create it.
I can follow how you arrived at it, but it would also mean, that every single individual possesses the ability to obtain the exact same conscious intelligence? And, that would be like we've talked before. It would leads to a conscious intelligence, which can bestow the power of creating universes, at a whim. And, it would also bestow the individual with the power to discard it's human form, for a more simplistic form of energy.
At least, that's my thoughts on it. Enjoying the discussion by the way. 
The physic world IS spirit, which is where the common misconception begins. And it IS being exploited, by both religion and science. And yes, heaven IS someplace else.
James.
Knolyourself, don't let ego catch you saying that?
But seriously, if you have eliminated your ego entirely, then you and the Father would be one. That would be something worth celebrating. But if your ego is tempting you with that idea, then... well, heaven help you!
I remember reading someplace that the great mathematician, Rene Descartes (famous for the profound "I think, therefore I am" and for Cartesian co-ordinates) once said, "Dieu en moi" (God in me). Imagine that; a scientist with a spiritual side.
The Nazarene teacher talked of the kingdom of Heaven being within you. Perhaps this is the same type of thing.
I have created a few miracles, only because I woke up for a few seconds or minutes, but the immortal slumber quickly overtook me again. (And all these pesky skeptics are pestering me for a repeat performance. Fat chance that. Proof they won't get because of their own egos. Egos don't deserve squat.)
But if you've gone the distance and awakened completely and stably, then you should be out performing miracles (not to show off, mind you), but to do good works to help people in need, especially spiritual need. Such acts would be one of stepping outside of religion and simply acting as a compassionate immortal (non-Homo sapiens).
Am I skeptical. Alas! There is some of that still in me. But putting my own skepticism aside, I'll say merely: You made it? Good! Then get busy and start using your newly re-acquired abilities.
Yeah I have come to that realization myself the last year. I was brought up in a christian town, and the more I studied all religions, I became aware that there was things that man, and churches create in traditions and dogma, even making so many versions of bibles, and never agreeing with in their own religions on what is truth and right. It seemed when I put all the religions togther it was like a puzzle, and found that most people were missing the whole picture. We can all be right, but have the missing peice that others need in their spiritual growth.
Religions may be a point of entry to understanding myths, metaphors, symbols, and archetypes, thereby gaining more self knowledge.
The problem is that those metaphors, symbols and archetypes don't need to be taken as literal truth 2,000 years later and thereby made usable to terrify and control the masses who do not know what an archetype is, or how to recognise psychosis in the written word.
The bible has become a source for post Jungian psychologists to harvest many aspects of the mass conscious, come to grips with extremes of sociopathic thought, the shadow or darker side of self, and in the case of the trinity, an aid to completing part of the process of individuation.
Religiosity is hard-wired psychologically for reasons that need to be understood if one is to grow as a human towards self knowledge.
Goddunnit is a useless thing to build one's life around, and religious indoctrination is a terrible mind numbing fate for an otherwise useful brain.Yer invited to "imbibe" to Earn!
Bring Emile with ya...ok? She seems to know that I only brew the finest white light'nin...errr...spirits...
QwarkIt's 8.55 am here mate.
OK what the hell, line one up for me buddy!
What's your poison Emile?They've been making the heck out of Purple Passion here in the summer heat, but I'm ready to try qwark's poison. It might knock some sense into me and get me out of this crazy train of thought.
Yours was an interesting post, on the topic. I guess you probably think I lean toward a religious train of thought, from this thread. I don't think I do, but I do still believe there's more to each of us than just this physical shell, in this short span of a mortal lifetime. Or, at least I like to think so.A psychologist friend makes an observation that I find interesting. He points out that man has been living while walking a razor edge always, yet we are still here, partly because of the unpredictable taking place.
Very interesting, Earnest. What constitutes your friend's "razor edge?" Is this similar to Somerset Maugham's "A Razor's Edge?"
The unpredictable challenges us and helps us to be stronger. Those who live in a shell, protected from the unpredictable, prove to be weak and incapable of surviving without their current infrastructure. I might just fit into that category, though I kinda think I might fare better than most. I have a crusty enough personality to withstand a fair amount of inconvenience.
One of the most fascinating television programs, "Connections," showed how civilization would likely crumble without the interdependent web of infrastructure supporting our daily lives. Only a few would be able to handle all of the unfamiliar unpredictability which would ensue from such a breakdown.
How would such a breakdown occur? There are many possibilities. Greed triggering financial chaos, triggering shortages, triggering squabbling for resources, triggering all-out war. Oops! Has this already started? Or religious wars (really, ego in disguise)? Misuse of antibiotics triggering resistant strains, triggering epidemics, ouch! Dependence on fossil fuels triggering global warming, triggering turbulence in climatic patterns (drought in some areas, flooding in others), triggering crop failures and loss of other resources, triggering widespread famine, triggering wars to acquire forcefully needed resources and food. Or perhaps a combination of all of the above. That indeed would be a razor's edge uncomfortable to walk.
I remember seeing a movie with Richard Widmark ("The Long Ships") which had a scene about a tall, vertical razor that an undesirable guest was invited to ride. Walking that kind of razor's edge wouldn't last long for most of us. Too many of us would be thinking of the typical consequences. That's how tough faith is to maintain. Most of us would not be able to walk that razor's edge without being cut.
Even the so-called faithful would be hard-pressed to perform such a miracle as surviving such a walk. The skeptic has even less a chance, because of the built-in bias, "doubt." If the story of Peter, walking on water is any indication, he started to sink the moment "doubt" returned.
So many skeptics have already asked me for proof of my own miracles. I'm not that good at it, yet. But even if I were, giving such proof to satisfy their ego is about as interesting as wearing pig poop. No thanks!
I look forward to learning more about your friend's "razor edge."How odd that you claim this proof to satisfy your own ego, then proceed to attack any one who questions it as being ego-driven.
I think it is perfectly reasonable and rational to ask you to repeat this miracle you claim. What exactly is egotistical about wanting evidence before believing things that are impossible? If I claimed I could walk on water - wouldn't you ask to see? Or would you simply accept it as true?
I suppose this is why Christians are so easy to sell things to - as long as it reinforces their beliefs.
Keith, the humility of which you speak is a really good thing. Too bad so many of the religious do not live up to it. And the point you made about visiting orphans and widows in their trouble, is good, but one needs to do it anonymously (not to the orphans and widows, obviously, but from your peers). To do good works publicly is an abomination, because it feeds ego, the master of this world.
And ego is what impedes progress on all fronts -- scientific, social, cultural, spiritual, etc.
The positive function of religion has been to keep alive the teachings that hold value. This is too often offset by the egotism the so-called religious express in their church-going lives.
Humility is a hard thing to do, especially for someone who wallows in ego all of the time and relishes it. I wallow in ego only every other Tuesday (I jest, but seriously I still have too much of this beast).
An artist does their best work when they let go of ego (attachments to what they've already created). Athletes find themselves in the zone more often when they let go of ego. Scientists make their biggest breakthroughs when they let go of ego, for "being right" (the domain of ego) has nothing to do with discovery. Finding spiritual truth can only be accomplished by subduing ego entirely, and this is accomplished with humility. As Earnest will attest, I have far too little of this.
I think it is a reasonable way to look at the high risk items on your list.
We really don't have a snowflakes hope in hell of surviving as a species. A common natural disaster could take us out in a heartbeat, yet somehow we have survived this long.We have not survived very long at all in the great scheme of things. As soon as we developed agriculture we began the long slow process of destroying ourselves.
True Mark. We have only been here a short time in comparison to many other life forms yet since agriculture we have managed to screw the planet over big time in a few hundred years.
Wow, such a pessimist. How revealing.
And yet, the closeness of farming communities helped to afford us immunity to the diseases that such closeness subjected us to.
Civilization may be imperfect. Even democracy may be imperfect, but it serves a purpose. They both provide enough opportunity for creativity and philosophical discussion.LOL I never said there was no opportunity for creativity and philosophical discussion. I see a lot of you religionists lie about what people actually said. Why is that? All it does is demonstrate that you are not capable of ethical behavior.
Of course I wouldn't expect you to be realistic - you believe in majik. Half the world is starving to death and the other half is killing itself by overeating. You spouting religious nonsense does nothing to change that.Sorry you do not understand. Oh well. I would try to explain, but that never works. Must be my inability to express myself adequately.
Even though Emily seems to be here as a troll, she does have a point that you are missing. Your religion holds you back. It prevents personal development.Even with the misspelling, I assume the person referenced is me.
Explain yourself EG. You'd be doing me a service. I see you all calling each other trolls as soon as you have a disagreement. Now me. I'd like to know if the shoe fits.
Since you must be referencing the internet definition, this means I have elicited an emotional response. Explain to me why you are so emotional. Have I asked questions that go against your grain? Why would this bother you? Am I making statements that upset you? Why would my opinion be of any consequence to you?
And, one more question. If I have caused you any consternation, why would you not adress the issue head on?
I find it difficult enough just being who I am and identifying the "I am."
There are many unexplained phenomena, many human actions that are outside normal experience such as synchronicity that are difficult to understand with logic.
There are well documented "super human" feats by savants and the autistic.
There are life forms that live in the most hostile environments imaginable.
A patient of Carl Gustav Jung's used to hide the meaning of his dreams in elaborate mathematics way beyond his conscious knowledge.
Men and women have done great things that are difficult to grasp, but none of them require belief in an entity other than self to be understood.
That which is unconscious to us for the most part can leap out and display intelligence beyond our scope of understanding, but no god is required to understand the basics of the subconscious or unconscious mind's ability to create such a god.I think religion impedes thinking.
If a child is not indoctrinated their IQ has a sporting chance.
For example, when told by a classmate that god made everything, one of the twins immediately asked her "Who made God?"
She was only 5 at the time.It doesn't help me! I have been tryin to get this damn hippo to fly to days now!
I am beginning to think she lacks wingspan.
Now let's get back to the sensible religious discussion we aren't gonna have.Don't egg him on Ernest. He's already a bit of a whirlwind. It's like the Tasmanian Devil blew through the forums.
I knew I was on the right track! All I need is a good spin doc and we are airborn!
Thanks for the sources.
It would seem so. This is a helluva good question if we think about it.
I am excited to discover where the new imaging processes take us.
Perhaps there is a bridge to be discovered.
As for savants and their difficulties, from what I have seen it is more our expectations than anything else.
Some people can't use parts of their body or mind, and I would respectfully submit that that use of mind limitation is amply demonstrated on these threads at times.
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