Where does faith come from? How do you know you're right?
I feel that believing in one religion is not practical. Likewise, there is no way of knowing if there is one God, or any God for that matter. I'm not saying there's not either, though I do trust science it only goes so far... Some things will always be left unexplained. The bottom line is that with the endless religions, spiritual beliefs, and deities that have been believed in throughout history it is unrealistic, and frankly somewhat arrogant, for someone to decide "I belong to the one religion that is totally correct." As far as this concept of faith in God goes, I'm not really buying it. I'm not trying to be a cynic but where does this faith really come from? Most of the time it is something you were taught as a part of your lifestyle, be it by parents as a child or later in life by a religious person or group that reaches out to you. Not to mention, again, who is any one person to say that their faith is the correct faith when there are so many other faiths that contradict it? I suppose if an angel literally appeared to me and said "Have faith in God" and I felt confident that I wasn't having a psychotic episode, I would develop faith... But have you ever met anyone who told you that was where they got their faith? Probably not.
What it really all comes down to in my mind is that if there is a God, he or she or it would not be so cruel as to send a kind person who led a good life to hell for choosing the wrong religion, or even for choosing no religion at all. If God would send me, a caretaker, animal rights advocate, frequent donation maker, and loving wife to hell just because I didn't believe in him that would be extremely spiteful and unkind. God is not supposed to be spiteful and unkind from what I understand.
I am curious about the truly faithful. I want to know WHY. Not out of judgment, I am a very tolerant person, but because I truly don't understand and I don't think it makes sense.There are two kinds of faith according to the bible, one is called Hope against Hope and the second one is The peace of mind of something that will come. To explain that according to the bible it was just like Moses and Sarah whose waited along time ago before they got a child named Isaac as God promised to them though Sarah infertile and Moses was too old enough to have a child if human like us will think if they can still have a baby it is so impossible but since it was God promises they had faith that it will happened and so it was.
What happened to the more reasonable assumption that Sarah wasn't quite as infertile as they thought and was playing around a little?
just believe what is written in the bible. sarah and abraham are just sample of having true faith. There's a lot of stories in the bible that can teach what is the true faith.
But why just believe what's written in the bible and dismiss what's written in the texts of other religions?
it only depends on the doctrines of the religion, try to search and find the true religion, i suggest you to watch net 25 and watch Iglesia ni Cristo ( Church of Christ ) doctrines. Ask them on how other religions dismiss some of the texts written in the bible. But keep praying and have faith that God will show you the right path to be able to get salvation.
Except the part that Sarah didn't have faith at all - and that's why she gave Abraham her servant as a concubine to conceive a child FOR her.
If God promises to you that you will have a child then it doesn't take any faith to believe that because for one, he's God and created everything so why wouldn't he and two God told you he would... where does faith come into play?
That is faith, though they couldn't see Him and His promised was so impossible for like us human to think that it will not be happening because they too old to have a baby and sarah was not able to have a baby but abraham still had the faith to the God's words that he will become a father of the nations and so it was happened.
How did God tell them that she would conceive? He told them. I am sorry but if someone supernatural tells you that you will have a baby then you will probably have one, that's the nature of this type of fiction. That has nothing to do with faith.
You said you were curious as to why The Father would send you to hell just because you didn't believe in him.
Bingo! The more we think about The Father being a loving father who said love your enemies and do good to them, the less the evangelical doctrines of hell make any logical sense. I've looked into Church history and from what I gather, The Father sending people to hell was a completely alien concept until the Catholic Church incorporated these pagan concepts. The Church today is so used to the idea of hell they think it's real.
The truth is that the Father will ultimately reconcile all to himself because the debt has been paid whether we accept Jesus or not.See, that's a much more logical approach and not arrogant. I respect that.
Not all people will be saved except those people inside the flock which is purchase by Jesus Christ blood. Acts 20:28 Lamsa Translation.
Not true.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.who is apostle referring to the word "all" remember he was talking to the true christian. Because according to christ himself not all can go to the heaven.. why? read it luke 13:25-27
All means all. If he was talking only about the 'true Christian' whatever that's supposed to mean, then clearly all the 'non-Christians' didn't die in Adam. Does that makes sense to you?
Perhaps you think the Father is not capable of reconciling all to himself or that he will wilfully set people on fire for eternity. Might I suggest you read the accounts of Israel burning their children and the Father's reaction in 2 Chronicles, then read up on what happened to people's bodies as they were burnt at the stake by the Church. After that ask yourself if the Father will do the same. If you think he will then you follow a different gospel to the one Paul preached.Adam story was done already, he doesn't have any relation with christian or non-christian in the past and today. God wants everyone to be saved and Christ as well, but in order to everyone be saved must be a member of the church of christ which christ established mathew 16:18 , rome 16:16 , the reason why it is the only church must everyone should get in its because Christ purchased it with his blood acts 20:28. This is the only way on how the people will be saved. If they are not a member of the true church there's no salvation anymore.Because they must be purchased by the christ's blood (acts 20:28) and do what is God's will in order to be saved.
See, here's the problem with religion. Two apparently intelligent people with apparently well grounded knowledge in the same book disagree on what it means. The source of the disagreement is their own personal experience, bias and emotional centre.
If there is a god/creator who wanted us to know the one true way, and was capable of the act of creating us, the planet, the universe, surely there would be a better way than writing it down in a collection of books and allowing mere humans to translate, interpret, edit, adapt and otherwise bend them to their own needs.
Oh, wait. there IS a better way.
Living your life. Listening to others. Loving. Accepting. Exploring. Failing. Succeeding.
Not the most popular way for those who just want the answers.
But if you have the answers, why bother with living? What's the value in life when you know the end? Kind of like reading only the last page, or watching only the last few minutes of a movie.
We find god in the search, not in any book.
In my humble opinion.
cheersAntonOfTheNorth: "But if you have the answers, why bother with living? What's the value in life when you know the end? Kind of like reading only the last page, or watching only the last few minutes of a movie.
We find god in the search, not in any book."
Two quick points: 1) Reading Holy Scripture, there will be times when it does mean two different things to two different people, because the Bible, being the "Living Word," the message isn't static but changes meaning as we move through life and life's experiences. If you read a passage one day and come back to it several years later, it may have a different meaning and touch you in a way you hadn't thought it could. But we aren't static beings but people of change, thus, our needs and hopes and desires change, too.
2) I agree with your observation that "we find God in the search." Not any ordinary search but--kind of like the great poem "The Hound of Heaven." It is a search but one can still "know the ending." For me, it just makes the journey all the more richer, because the tapestry by which we weave here and there will be revealed eventually to be very beautiful indeed, if the threads that we live by are grounded in being kind to one another. That is when our beauty shines the best. And, by the way, the value in knowing the ending? Your hope is not in vain but based in truth.I think that is due more to the educational system we have, many people are ignorant to the meaning of many words, or phrases and just because you understand the meaning of a phrase one way on day one and another on day two doesn't mean it changed it means you just jumped to your own conclusion. And maybe the translation was different, the meaning doesn't change at all (though there could be a double entendre) it just means we aren't educated enough in the language of the time to understand what they meant.... and consider that the book was written by several people, the language changes and the way things are stated changes... but the document doesn't change and the way that person said it doesn't change, (except in the way someone who also didn't understand the phrases of that time period meant).
Give this it to mean doesn't make the Bible the living word of God or a reliable means for understanding God in any way shape or form. it means we have to take the opinions of several different authors of the Bible and have them make sense in the different ideas they had and the different mis communications and mis understandings of each others languages and cultural meanings.... if you are not sure what I mean by this visit a foreign nation or talk to someone about politics who is not of your same ideology about what America means to them.
This exactly the reason why God find first the kingdom and truth.. Seeking it is not that easy because of a lot of religion established. That is why people should put effort to find it for his own salvation. Pray a lot to find which is true. I suggest to hear the doctrine of Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ).. you will be thankful once you understand its doctrines.
I understand the doctrines of many religions and that is why I am no longer a believer in any churches, God or Jesus. Also, just to make this clear, I don't need God or Jesus to be a good moral person who is satisfied to live a good and happy life so as to make those around me good and happy, with out the empty promise of salvation or the empty threat of damnation.
And if you understand the nature of reality you might understand why I say empty threat or empty promise.
Anton, I have much agreement with what you say, religious texts are fundamentally flawed. The bible itself does appear to have foggy origins and nobody knows whether what we have is the 'true word' or complete. All the original texts were lost, much was removed, some added based upon human committees. The bible thus represents the agreed concencus of those who put it together at the time.
Islam might claim therefore that the Koran is the only valid religious text because it is known who wrote it and the original form is preserved. Unfortunately, it is the writings of a single man, a single witness where in a court of law two or three witnesses are required.
Thus, a much more effective way for a God to communicate is by equipping each one with a conscience. Living by good conscience through as you say, living life, loving and listening to others etc.
So 'salvation' cannot come by believing a set of doctrines, because that is fundamentally flawed too. It is entirely dependant upon the particular doctrines we were brought up with, the credibility of the doctrine giver, and how brilliant their argument is sufficient for us to dop our beliefs and accept theirs. Therefore the notion that what we believe determines our eternal fate is nonsense. Thus religion is useless and cannot save anybody. The only thing we can be judged by is our actions, not beliefs.
The reason I argue with Christians using the bible is because I do not believe that Institutionalised Christianity and the majority of its doctrines represent what was intended by Jesus or the apostles. What we have in Christianity is largely a manmade religion and its adherents largely choose to accept what their leaders have told them the bible means rather than questioning and researching it themselves. I believe that the interpretations of it today are far removed from those of the 1st century.The bible is a very accurate representation on the whole. The OT is the most accurate. Proper doctrines come from the OT and we cannot establish any new doctrines based on the NT. Both the OT and NT must agree in harmony to establish what is correct. For instance there was no hell in the old testament, just a grave. We need to understand jewish context and society, idioms and allegories in both old and new testaments.
We can accept that the God of the OT has ushered in another covenant which includes all people, everywhere, the NT.
We do have accurate documentation, 58,000 greek texts and more outside of that for the new testament. The OT has been marvelously preserved as one might expect if one had sacred documents from an actual live God.
What we have today is access to the Greek text words something churchianity did not have access to and thus, they went by the catholic translation and if you read the NT without getting into the greek wording you will come up doctrines as such which have been a plague on "the way of God" since 1611.
God can be found in fact he is quite happy to be found; unfortunately, where most turn around and lose God is when God brings them to the end of themselves and they build themselves up again. Christianity is selflessness, a large obstacle for most to overcome."The OT has been marvelously preserved as one might expect if one had sacred documents from an actual live God."
Also as one might expect if all the powers of the time imposed their version as the one true word and had all the might to back it up
cheersIf you are foolish enough to believe such fantasies without actually taking the time to study every word and claim made in said document then go ahead and believe, just don't expect everyone to be as stupid as yourself, or as silent about it as you expect them to be.
What I have experienced is faith comes when someone has experiences to provide evidence and substance to ensure them the possibility that their needs will be met by some source they ever had considered. I had an experience often referred to as new birth and after the experience I call my new conception there were times I was replied to by a literal voice, the following is 2 occasions.
I became a preacher in the Baptist denomination and my congregation would only allow me ordination provided I went to seminary. The conditions I was required to meet to go to the one I desired I didn't meet so I prayed while showing the requirements to the ceiling of my room "father open a way to enter this seminary" and receiver a vocal reply "you don't need to go, I've already taught you." It was not until after my new birth of giving up civilization and all that goes along with it for the life of a nomad did I realize just how I had been taught.
The second one was the insurance on my auto was about to be discontinued and I prayed for assistance in getting the money and received the vocal reply, "do you trust me" so I threw away the paper and answered affirming I did. I was in 2 accidents and they each paid without even asking if I had insurance because they were at fault. I was in the error and about hit a car with the right of way broadsided but somehow the collision never happened.
Those two things, and many others, gave me the faith enough to leave my job, wife, family and church to become a nomad I've been for the past 36 years without having to work for money and yet my needs, air, water, food and clothes enough to satisfy the law of the land as seen in my photo, were met. I was snake bit and had a hairline fracture but never used a doctor and am here to tell about it with full health.
Those experiences are the things which have given me faith to believe my destiny, which I have been revealed, will happen.Faith may not always be about being right and can also be seperate from a belief system. I have my own beliefs which are powerful to me and so I often talk about them. I have faith in them. I do not try to change the beliefs or non beliefs of others as they may have equally strong feelings towards those beliefs. Even non believers may have faith in the premise of thier non belief. I also think that faith can be present in the face of knowledge, like I have the knowledge that we are all of the same species sharing the same planet and I have faith that some way, some how, life is good. Have a nice day.
I disagree with you in the sense that you say people of non-beliefs have a faith. The reason the people don't believe in something is for a lack of faith.
For example, people say it takes more faith to believe there is no God than that there is a God. This is a foolish nonsense statement. For one the reason a person doesn't believe is they don't have faith, the reason they don't believe is because they have no proof that said claim is valid, the people making the claim haven't met the burden of proof... this is the absolute opposite of faith. Faith means to believe in something despite the fact that it could be false, having evidence something is true doesn't require faith to believe that it is true.
This is the problem with people who hear angels gods and other voices, they dont think they are having a major psychotic episode and do think that they are really seeing some kind of supernatural being, and then they tell other people about it and those other people believe them and hey presto we have a new religion on our hands, led by a psycho or schizophrenic
and what power that person must have if he is specially chosen to be god's special messenger....i would imagine if you want to be a leader, it would have to be virtually essential to hear god, even if no-one else can, and how much better if god tells you to make war on your tribe's enemy of the week...Check out my hub on "Hell: A Reality." There is only one way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ.
I checked it out and disagree. Read Revelation 20:14 where it reads And death and hell were cast into lake of fire. Hell isn't the lake of fire, it's cast into it, so, what is it?
Because Daniel 12:10a suggests Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried that suggests it's a place of purification, especially since Ecclesiastes 1:9 suggests things on earth happens in a repetitious cycle. That's why the lake of fire is never quenched, it's only reduced to ember during the transitions from this material civilization to the spiritual one Revelation 21 reveals. Thus, civilizations are the only place the concept of god, devil, beast, false prophet and dragon are found.
King Nebuchadnezzar is a prophetic type{/b] of those who survive the termination of this civilization, recorded in Daniel 4:25-34. You will notice [b]his mind was taken from him while living as the prophetic type and restored after the 7 times were finished, therefore, the concept of god, devil, beast, false prophet and dragon returns to the mentality of man in each civilization making them the lake of fire. That's why when Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden the way back in was guarded with the flaming {purifying fire} sword {severing attachments} so the mind of good and evil nor attachments would enter the transition to the spiritual civilization.That's all very interesting but the lake of fire is God. The casting of hell and death into the lake of fire means just simply that they will be no more. hell is the grave where dead men go and death is what happens to those who do not have eternal life. 2 deaths.. first flesh, second life.
What precepts do you have to put upon others (Isaiah 28:10) to justify your interpretation?
Interesting response.
Shall i retype a bunch of hubs? Shall i submit a lengthy thesis?
Shall i mention a few reasons that may get sidetracked by you quoting some other verse that i have to spend time putting into context.
No.. i will ignore that post and hope that you read some hubs, spend some time asking intelligent questions in the search for truths that you do not already know.
With faith you never know you are right otherwise it would be called reasoning. Faith, by definition, is the belief in something without proof. I guess in the end we all believe what we want to believe.
Analyse your past and current with peace.We can realise the things happened with out our knowledge and control.The faith will come when we realise the things and we can know that we are right.
"We can realise the things happened with out our knowledge and control." They happen because there are 7 billion people in the world and we can't see and know everything, we can only see what is in front of us and observe what is around us. We can collect information and compare it with the information given to us by others with their own experiences. We can't know everything but we can know what we have discovered and what we don't know we con only say, "I don't know, but I am willing to look record and learn"
I have nothing to add for clarity, but I must say you have put into words what has been on my mind for months. As a non believer seeking out my Jewish heritage, I am left wondering how to know what belief is right. It seems ignorant for me or any one else for that matter to say their belief is the right one when in reality none of us has the ability to know the "right" thing to chose.
I think the best thing we can do is just follow the facts, the evidence, see what actions create what results and decide what is the best and most productive way to live our lives, whatever that might mean. As long as it doesn't interfere with another persons life then it is all good... personally I see this being opposite of what most religions seem to teach. What is right for one may not be right for another, even if it's a total fantasy that the other person is living, as long as that person hurts no one then I am fine with them.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17
- scottcgruberposted 12 years ago
0The right faith is whatever works for you. If you need a God or Gods, then have faith in them. If you don't need a magical sky fairy, that's fine, too.
But what works for you does not work for anyone else - even people who share your religion. So stop wasting your breath trying to convert us.
Oh - and stop dumbing down the country by trying to make schools indoctrinate children with your faith in science class.
If you can keep it to yourself, you can believe whatever you want to believe. If it's right for you, it's the right faith.This is why most of us Atheists are outspoken about this issue of religion and faith and why we don't believe. If we all respected each others beliefs I am not sure anyone would know what anyone else's beliefs even were.
Perhaps you (atheists in general) can respect our beliefs by not coming here and being so outspokenly critical. And by not bothering to be here i am sure you would not know what our beliefs are. We did not come to you, you came to us.
Most atheists have a bone to pick and it is not with our beliefs but with themselves and their failure to first understand and then to comply with biblical truth.That's a straw man, the problem is we as atheists have been living in a society whose majority of Christians do not have mutual respect for those of us who believe differently. If you want us atheists do not be so outspoken then you would have to allow for meeting people who don't believe as you do and live as you do and not say anything other than, this is what I believe and you can hear more if you want (sort of like Jesus might do) however, considering the nature of your religion... and how your religion is forcing itself constantly into politics and into the business of people who don't believe as you do, then we will be outspoken.
"We did not come to you, you came to us." This is very short sighted of you, I dare you to go to a scientific forum and I challenge you to count how many religious fanatics present themselves.... you will be counting for a while. I only have a bone to pick with those who come into my life.... I came to hub pages to air out my views for all to read.... you don't live in a bubble you live in a society of people who have different beliefs, whether it be atheists like myself or different than myself, or Buddhists, Muslims, Taoists, Hindus, etc etc, over twenty different ones.
You want to challenge us with your "Biblical Truths" I challenge you to show me one. I grew up a Christian, my family is mostly Christian.... I know all the explanations that you have for thinking what you believe is true, I once held them, I have talked to people like yourself all my life.... don't pretend to know what I am or why I believe the way I do or why I come here to debate with you. I understand the Bible fully, and I understand you fully.I was talking about this forum and the lives of those on this forum. I did not want to cover the globe and for you to take this discussion worldwide is rather desperate of you.
So now all we get is to hear is what your dissatisfied with because of other people in politics and on a science forum are doing. And because others do these things you feel completely justified bringing that same attitude here.
Myself i do not enter science forums or politics and i am sure there are so very many, many christians that do not do that.
I did not want to discuss hindu or muslims, or toaoists etc because my post was in response to your post IN HERE as i plainly stated.
I don't want to challenge you with any of your beliefs other than, you have the right to do what others do that you do not like; Bleeting in the forums about how offensive we are sitting here typing our letters to each other.
Theres a lot of new stuff going on in christianity and like the doctor that fails to read the newest journals, he falls behind in information and ends up parroting past wrong cures. If a person doesnt keep involved with christianity they are not aware of improved doctrines or more correct answers and they become uninformed, relying on the past teachings that have been upgraded by good profitable research.
And as for you understanding me... or the bible fully... thats a laugh.
Now stop whining about what others do and be different than them.
Thank you
have a nice day.You do know who wrote this forum and what it deals with right? I love how you like to twist the words I speak to make me out to be either the victim or the bad guy. And how you want to shelter yourself in this little bubble of "faith" that you feel the question only pertains to yourself. That's the problem with people like you, you are selfish, and self centered and self righteous, and hypocritical. It's kind of sad. I never said YOU were offensive, but I did say that whatever you say I will respond in kind, and being that I do have an opinion on the matter and I do much research into the human condition and in the subject of faith I am completely justified in being here. I love how you try and straw man attack myself and if you don't understand what that means I'll tell you, a straw man attack is one where you label someone as something they are not or a very ignorant misunderstanding of their position or generalizing them within a particular group. I am sorry if you would rather attack someone for holding a particular position rather than have an intelligent debate, which you seem incapable of doing.
Thanks for proving the negative aspects of your group rather than the positive.
You have a wonderful day as well.
I was raised Catholic and took Religious Ed. classes from ages 5 -18, so I am familiar, but why should I trust what is in the Bible without questioning it?
Carol Rae: You offer a lot of interesting questions. The Bible, as Catholics believe, the Bible is the Living Word of God. That means that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit or Ruah who worked through human writers to share the love of God or the "Good News" with all.
We have to believe that we are free creatures and that God has given us a free will. He doesn't coerce us or force us to believe or disbelieve in Him. That being said, when we speak of Hell, Catholics believe that it isn't God who condemns us, it is we who have made a choice to not love Him, love one another, have compassion or kindness. If we live unrepentant lives or lives that purposely hurt another, we cannot hope to live in the presence of a perfect God. Keep in mind that the Gates of Heaven were closed due to the choice of Adam and Eve. Jesus tore open those gates so that we wouldn't have to suffer for the sins of those who chose poorly. But that doesn't mean we cannot suffer our own condemnation when compared to God. Can God overlook our sins? He could. That is truly up to Him. But the fact remains that it is we who need to live lives that reflect the love we have received and share that love with others.
If our lives are less than perfect but we still try to do our best, God sees our innermost thoughts and is merciful. But turning a dead eye on not even trying to know God is just as bad as slamming a door on a beggar or spitting on someone when they are down. One cannot expect mercy when one refuses mercy toward others.
We were created to be better than that. Deep inside we know this to be true, otherwise life would have less value. But because we "feel" that we have value and are valued, something or more appropriate someone "speaks" in the silence of our hearts to share with us something greater, and that something is God.
Call it what you will, I call it faith. Faith is a call from God to get to know Him. Our response in "faith" comes from answering that call with our prayers, thoughts, and actions.
So, the long and short of it, faith is something God does and then what we do to respond to Him. It is a relationship between the divine and the finite. What a wonderful thing to place one's trust in someone who loves unconditionally. I'll take that any day than to believe in nothing, or even at the very least, something limited to this world. After all, we were made in "his image and likeness" and possess the potential to do great things with and through the grace of God for all time to come. Best Regards--Deb"Carol Rae: You offer a lot of interesting questions. The Bible, as Catholics believe, the Bible is the Living Word of God. That means that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit..."
It means no such thing. It means that Catholics make the claim that "it was inspired..." which is a much different kettle of fish and is a good reason to question it. When any group as powerful and controlling as the Catholic church speaks, it behooves us to question both the motives and veracity of the comment.Carol Rae expressed that she was Catholic and I responded to her in kind. Since I am also Catholic, I am speaking directly to the question she posed. I won't nor can speak on/about anyone else's faith, as being Catholic this is what I know and believe to be true. Others can judge according to their understanding and I am not standing in their way.
As for questioning the Catholic faith and traditions and stances, many non-believers and believers alike have done so. So go for it. There is plenty of theology and holy writing to quench even the most hardened of hearts. But again, I won't get in the way of semantics nor get into the "controlling" aspect, as one may be sure to bring up. Catholicism in itself has never bound anyone like a cult to its beliefs, ask those many "professed" Catholics who have freely walked away to other faiths. If one looks to the "heart" of what Catholicism is, you will find that it is nothing like the dark and sinister institution that others are fond of calling it.
Jesus is the Head of the Church and remains so to date (and always will be), so anything or anyone that goes contrary to Divine Truth and Love isn't following Him appropriately. And, as I said before, if man chooses poorly, he is accountable for those choices--that goes for those who stand in the pulpit or sit in the pew. God, who is All-Good, has never incited anyone to do anything that will purposely cause them to go to Hell or to be condemned. Best Regards--DebSorry - I read her post to indicate she had studied the Catholic religion, but was not now Catholic. Given that you think (thought) you were responding to a fellow believer, your post makes good sense.
I didn't think you were responding to a believer, which made your post nonsense. I didn't see your Truth as the same as her Truth.
Make sense?Wilderness: "Sorry - I read her post to indicate she had studied the Catholic religion, but was not now Catholic. Given that you think (thought) you were responding to a fellow believer, your post makes good sense.
I didn't think you were responding to a believer, which made your post nonsense. I didn't see your Truth as the same as her Truth."
Wilderness:
It does make sense, although I did read her post as if she no longer was practicing the Catholic faith. But I have chosen to speak to her as I would you or any other person of goodwill, and I am not going to criticize you for your views and I don't expect you to accept mine.
But I will say this in regards to your later post, if we are to keep our views and religion to ourselves, then where would you suggest that we practice our faith and expect to be "tolerated" for our views. Funny that American citizens want to control even the ability to believe and dictate what to believe. Correct me if I am wrong, but a good majority of our immigrant families came to the U.S. to seek refuge because it afforded them the freedom to practice their faith. Should I not have the same freedom to believe in God and His Laws and you have the freedom to believe or not believe as you do?If I've given that impression I've been seriously remiss in getting my point across. Unless, of course, your religion is unwilling to tolerate others with different views.
Build your church as you wish, subject to local building codes and laws. Worship in it as you wish, subject to noise ordinances or other laws that prevent undue infringement on neighbors. Decorate your house with a cross on the roof if you wish, subject to building heights etc.
Do whatever you wish, but do not attempt to force those beliefs or actions onto others. Do not try to teach your beliefs in public schools (although you can run your own school as you wish, subject to education laws required of everyone). Do not try to avoid societies laws because you don't like them; they are applicable to everyone regardless of religious belief. Do not try to force your chosen morality on others as is being done to gays.
An example of what I find objectionable; last year I attended a rodeo, put on and funded by the city, held in a city owned building. We were asked to stand for the national anthem, but were then regaled by a 15 minute religious "prayer' which was mostly a demand to teach our children about the Christian myth. I didn't ask for that prayer, I didn't expect to pay for that prayer with either my admission fee, the time I spent standing there or with my taxes that supported the rodeo. It was completely and totally unacceptable; keep your religion and beliefs out of public affairs. I would not demand time to give an atheistic speech concerning the silliness of religion; don't expect me to sit through one by religion.Wilderness,
That was a very rational primer on the objection to religion in the public sector. I think the problem is this; Christianity is very much a CULTURAL phenomenon in America and for millions of people is a way of life that almost happens without thought. But in the context that you described (the rodeo) it became a political statement and I agree with you that it would have been best to not include this in the program.I get that. I really do. I have no objection to someone sticking a magnetic cross on their car, or a "Honk if you love Jesus" sign. They like telling the world their beliefs and others like seeing a kindred soul. If I don't like it I can look away.
But don't demand I put one on my car. Don't demand there be one in the local, public, park or the statehouse.
The country is a melting pot of cultures and getting along with others means a separation of church and state. Except, apparently, to some of the Christian persuasion, who feel that the concept only applies to others and not to them. That demand a public obeisance to their belief, that demand everyone possible convert or at least agree to the belief.
We've seen requests for Sharia law that everyone, including Christians, pounced on as unacceptable. Why can't those Christians understand that the separation is for everyone, not just non-Christians?Deleted
And I agree with Jefferson. Probably the biggest difference is that I doubt Jefferson ever considered the little things that push a religious view, but that have become a way of life in political America.
The 1950's insertion of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, for instance, or "In God We Trust" on all of our money. Putting religious icons in our public buildings (always Christian, somehow), or a short prayer prior to town council meetings or dinners. Putting the creation "theory" in a science class rather than a comparative religion class. Swearing on a bible in court or to become President.
The state never formally proclaimed a national religion, but it has surely allowed and encouraged thousands of customs and signals that America is Christian to become a part of politics and law. Jefferson may not have envisioned that possibility but we can recognize it now, and it is in our interest to deny it wherever it is found.
Wilderness:
The Catholic faith is not "against" others, we'll square out on that one. And, for all intensive purposes, we have complied with all laws and building codes--so we're good, so far. Forcing beliefs? Not on secular soils as I am aware of. Other Christian faiths? Can't speak for them. Standing up and believing in sacramental matrimony as being between man and woman, I do, since this sacrament if divinely inspired and one that the Catholic Church professes. Marriage any other way isn't even in the line of this forum, so I will stick with what is on this post.
And, as for having to sit through a Christian-prayer-presentation at a rodeo--maybe not the best place to have done this. Not sure why, but stranger things have happened. Am I making light of your rights? Absolutely, not. I might have felt uncomfortable, too.
Wilderness, you are a moral man and one who has thought long and well about what to believe in and not to believe in. Please know, I am not here to convert you or anyone else. But the question at the beginning of the forum was asked, and I don't believe we should be censored for expressing in all kindness what I believe has been a lively discussion. Best Regards--DebI realize you don't think the Catholic church is any way forcing belief on anyone, but I have to disagree. The church has long been known for inserting itself into politics, using the force and might of the church to promote laws that it finds morally right. The pope himself has done so, and more than a few times. The Catholic church was, I believe, the first one to try to claim religious exemption from providing legally required birth control and has led the fight against gay rights. Texas, the state that re-wrote our textbooks to have a Christian orientation, has more Catholic residents than anything else.
Personally, I think that The Suburban Poet had a very good point a little earlier - much of what I object to is done unthinkingly and without malice or any real thought of conversion or force. It is a cultural thing that comes very naturally - the people who set up that prayer in the rodeo up never considered that others might object. It was to glorify God, to save people from Hell and was entirely appropriate in any setting, but especially one where there is a captive audience. They meant no harm (most likely), just didn't think about their own reaction if someone proposed a very different Muslim, atheistic or Hindu speech. Same for those that erected the giant cross on public land above the town and left it for the city to maintain and light up at night. They meant no harm, it was done to glorify God and without considering that others of different beliefs would end up with the responsibility of caring for it.
At the end of the line, though, not all are so tolerant or understanding as you are. I think you and I could live as neighbors without a hint of problem, but others are not that way. Some would object horribly at an overly large nativity scent in the yard, others at Halloween decorations. Sure, you have a midnight mass in your backyard every week with a hundred attendees, music, singing and an amplified sermon and I'm going to object eventually. Have one once or twice a year and you would never hear from me.
It has been interesting - different viewpoints always are if we can remain civil - and I've enjoyed it. Thank you.
Wilderness is correct. I am not a practicing Catholic. Sorry if I was unclear about that. I was raised that way but as an adult have chosen not to follow that path because I do not agree with it. It's nothing against the Catholic religion specifically, I simply do not believe in organized religion for the reasons mentioned in my first post.
In regards to the Living Word of God, I am familiar with that concept but in my mind it proves nothing... I feel it is just a made up concept to justify the fact that the Bible was written by man. You know your stuff though, Deb, and I thank you for your informative response.Carolyn Rae: You are so very welcome. I believe that you are on a journey of discernment, something that we all have to travel through in order to either believe with truth and understanding or believe blindly. Some come to faith through many years of twists and turns, others will eventually find their way through educational exploration and/or through a dissertation with those knowledgable about the mystery of God. I hope and pray for you that you receive the wisdom and understanding necessary to find that which you seek--peace and love. Best Regards--Deb
Is faith all it's cracked up to be? What one achieves through faith is, well, faith... Faith begets faith. If you want faith, have faith. The faithful will always have just that, faith. I'm guessing faith may have killed as many cats as curiosity, but I think pursuing the latter is a more useful application of human intelligence.
I think I'm missing something here. I've always considered faith as something one substitutes for knowledge (or at least evidence) when that knowledge is not available.
In terms of religion/God, no one can know that God exists so faith takes the place of actual knowledge, allowing us to believe in something that makes us feel good, that we very much want. We don't need knowledge or even evidence to support that belief - we have faith instead.
Given that, we cannot know if our faith is right or true, but it doesn't matter, either. We have faith we're right, the faith sustains the belief we want and we're content with that.Natureboy i am concerned if you are hearing voices in your head or you think your ceiling is talking to you, i think you may need some psychiatric treatment or medication, please see a doctor
anyone who hears the voices of apparently invisible people or non-human being needs help urgentlyGillian, my earliest experience with hearing a voice happened when I was between 6 and 9 months old, I was left asleep in a rails up baby bed and awoke to an empty house. After making a sound for someone to come get me I began to cry at the top of my lungs to no avail when a voice said "you may as well be content, no one is coming to get you" so I became content. When my mother came she praised me for waking up and not crying. Little did she know.
I've told psychiatrist about the previous 2 experiences but they give me a "clean bill of health" anyway. Those voices are my help, you can tell that to children and get them to believe it but I'm 67 years old and have had enough experiences to know invisible people exist and can speak audible to us as well. [a]If you believe in angelic beings then you believe in invisible people also.[/b]that voice if you heard it when you were 9 months old was probably your mother or sister or neighbour on the other side of the door or wall, is that not a more feasible and likely explanation that it was god?
None of them were n the house, I was alone. My mother had gone to the field or garden to get something to cook and my 2 sisters and brother, the oldest being only 5, would not have said anything like that.
Like I said, I have had to many experiences with the voice(s) over my 67 years for you to even make a dent in my accepting them for voices, obeying them proved to be the best thing I could do under all of the circumstances.Considering the nature of your story and the claims you are making about how old you were when you heard voices I have come to the conclusion that your story is completely fabricated and fictional. Not that you even heard voices, maybe you wish you did maybe you have totally convinced yourself that you have. Considering the nature of the human mind, memory and how we communicate, I am going to have to say that you aren't telling us the truth, Great story though, good for maybe a TV movie.
Believe as you will, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. You can find my website by putting elijah natureboy is a web search engine where my life story from memory is THE BOOK OF ELIJAH: A LETTER TO THE WORLD and you will find even more.
Sorry, not interested in fantasy fiction. Thanks though.
Thanks for making me know you, when most people judge others they're telling on themselves.
By the way, you can go to http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/107596 and read at least the OP.
to the OP, of course it doesnt make sense, which is exactly why you shouldnt believe it, any more that the stories of norse or greek or roman or egyptian gods make sense
you dont worry about not believing in hinduism or any other religious nonsense, so why worry about not believing this particular religious nonsense
the only reason is because so many people around you happen to believe in it, and because it is woven into the culture you grew up in
faith is for those are or who prefer to be ignorant, to not question, to 'have faith', to believe that there is something after their death which will be given to them if only they follow the 'rules'
faith is for the fearful and the stupid who believe without evidence and renounce every piece of evidence which runs counter to their belief as 'evil'
look at the facts, think for yourself, read, analyse, research, use your logical mind, do not be fearful unless you find any evidence there is anything real to be fearful ofYou're way off base by declaring the faithful to be stupid. It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of priority.
Some prefer to live their lives in the harsh, cold world of independence and reality; their tools to accomplish that are reason, study and research to find knowledge of that reality.
Others prefer to live in the warm, fuzzy glow of a father guiding them, watching over them and above all else providing eternal life. Their tools are faith, fellowship and testimony to find the belief necessary for that life.
That their goal and tools are different doesn't make them stupid, just someone with different goals and desires.you are right, in a way, because once upon a time, i too believed in god since that is how i was raised from being a baby, and i had the same mental capacity then, that i currently do now
however, gradually as i became older, i questioned, read, researched and thought, and used my mind to rationally and critically analyse the things i had been told through my childhood to believe,
as a result i slowly came to the realisation that the whole thing it was utterly ridiculous and that i had been believing in a confused and mixed up makebelieve fairy story written by any number of men over the last few centuries about a non-existent yet very bad tempered and temperamental desert sky fairy
if people want to live their whole life living under that delusion because it makes them feel cosy and fuzzy then i see them like naive children who rather than facing reality, want to believe in invisible friends, fairies and santa, rather than using their reasoning and intelligence to see the lies they have been fed and then look at the actual facts and evidence that is in front of their eyes, and which will enable them to concentrate this life, since there is no evidence for the existence of any other one.......
if it was just about fluffy bunnies and warm fluzzy glows, it wouldnt really matter to me what people believed, but when people are burned, tortured and maimed for breaking the rules of the sky fairy, or when people who are voted into government say things like "If slavery was so bad, why didnt Jesus Paul or the prophets say something", its time that people who like to reason study and research, use their intellect and minds to give the rest of of them a good hard poke and wake them upNo, it doesn't work well when the believer tries to force their belief onto those who find knowledge more important. Without faith those beliefs are just nonsense and will not be accepted as true.
However, there are relatively few who do that. It cannot be tolerated if even one does, but the answer is not to attack the entire group. Live and let live should be the response, with steps taken towards only those few that don't agree with that philosophy.it works very well however, when "believers" spout or preach their thoughts and beliefs to people who like their cosy fuzziness and dont question, who are like sheep, who dont really think for themselves and allow terrible things to happen (all in the name of god) which shouldnt
if it were only "a few" it perhaps wouldnt be so bad, and living and letting live might be fine, but its all the many many others who support, vote for, or keep, or otherwise allow such deluded and ignorant people (not that few imho) into positions of power across the whole world, that need to be convinced to wake up and smell the coffeeGillian, IMHO, you make great points in a horrible way.
It was a little of both. I agree with almost everything you are saying, just not how you say it.
hmm, see, i know there are lots of lovely christians and muslims and sikhs and hindus etc etc etc all over the world who are peace loving and wonderful and do charity work and would give you their last sandwich, and i know that people who dont believe in any gods come across as attacking those lovely harmless folk who arrange flowers in church on sunday and visit the sick in hospital.......
BUT, its not as simple as that is it? so many truly truly horrible things are done in the name of religion, in the past and right now as i type this, and will continue to be done in the future, all by people quoting from the bible or their alternative religious book, supposedly written or dictated or inspired by their own respective temperamental moody sky fairy/fairies however many hundreds of years ago
so many nice lovely fluffy bunny believers want to think that their religion is a peaceful one and dont like to hear the nasty stuff about it because it shakes up their happy cosy world and reality as they know it
i think the nasty stuff needs to be shouted and yelled from the rooftops so that they will hear it while they have their fingers in their ears singing lalala jesus loves me and wants me for a sunbeam lalala
the facts are the facts, when i hear people saying all you need to do is pray more and it will cut crime, whilst facts show that countries that have fewest religious people (and therefore less prayer) have least crime rates, it makes me so cross, how stupid can some people be, that they really dont want to hear the truth (the real actual truth, not the biblical version of 'the truth')
i try so hard not be angry, i think anger is the wrong thing to have in your life, but i do get frustrated and i do feel passionate about this, because i think (and i know i am generalising) that so many people who believe in god havent actually read their bible critically, much less about other religions and read criticisms and religious history with an open and unbiased mind, and they quote their bible as if its an absolute verified source of what actually happened as if reporters from CNN, Fox News, CBS and BBC were all there reporting it as it happened...totally unbiased...I get it, I guess I think by you verbally attacking them you kind of become as bad as them. I mean really what's the difference between a Christian standing on the streets with a sign screaming gays are going to hell and an atheist in a forum calling the same people names?
I'm an atheist married to a Christian so I do get your frustration. It just seems contradictory to (in a way) do something that you are annoyed with others for doing. Just my nosey unimportant opinion! Have a good night!You're right - "few" is relative and there are many thousands of believers that are eager to force their beliefs onto everyone. Only a small handful will resort to violence, but laws are another matter.
The answer, though, is not to shout the truth from the rooftops to get through their plugged ears. The truth is not wanted, only that warm fuzzy feeling. The truth will be ignored or (more likely) twisted into something it wasn't to support the belief that gives the feeling they want.
The answer, IMHO, is to force the live and let live philosophy. Believers want their faith? Fine, but don't allow it to be used to teach other children their fantasies in public schools. Truth, or our best guess as to truth, only - no faith based stories. Don't allow religion to ignore laws the rest of society follows - Hobby Lobby either complies or goes out of business. Don't allow it to affect others in their private lives - gays can marry.
Religious beliefs are slowly dying out - America and the middle east are the last major bastions and both are slooowly losing them as well. The faithful will always exist - that warm feeling and guarantee of eternal life is just too enticing - but their numbers are decreasing and religion will eventually become a non-player in the political and social fields.
Control the obnoxious behavior, then, and let it die a natural death - Knowledge and truth will always win in the end. We can't ignore efforts by the faithful to force their faith onto others, but we can stamp on it everywhere it happens. Do not allow laws based on religion, only those based on reason and tolerance.It's for the atheists as it is for the religious what's written in KJV 1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. & 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. You are preaching none god while Christians are preaching god with equal disgust for the other making you like them. Should you find the middle path you will share your views and allow others to attempt to disprove it. In that way you are providing what you believe is the perfect and without hate for their views. If you have the perfect you have neither love nor hate, you have indifference which is the joining point of love and hate.
You've missed the entire point of my several posts here. The believer will never get the non-believer to have the faith they do by quoting scripture or describing their own faith. It's not factual, it's not truthful and the only reason for belief is the faith of the believer.
I don't need a middle ground and I don't feel a need to listen to the false-to-fact ideas of the believer. I don't have a need to convert the believer to the world of facts at all, and there is no need to listen to their mutterings in return. Just keep them from trying to run my life for me, that's all. I won't enter a church to make their rules for them, tell them when or how to pray or how to take communion - I expect them to keep their church out of my life in return.
"i try so hard not be angry, i think anger is the wrong thing to have in your life, but i do get frustrated and i do feel passionate about this, because i think (and i know i am generalising) that so many people who believe in god havent actually read their bible critically, much less about other religions and read criticisms and religious history with an open and unbiased mind, and they quote their bible as if its an absolute verified source of what actually happened as if reporters from CNN, Fox News, CBS and BBC were all there reporting it as it happened...totally unbiased..."
Gillian: There are many hypocrites in the world, but there are more good and loving people--believers and non-believers. I agree that just because someone calls themself Christian that they are NOT the be all and end all and that they have an "edge" on going to heaven (whether you believe this or not.) The real issue is Who one believes in is paramount to justifying it with a Church name. The Bible passage, "they will know we are Christians by our love," is all about living a life steeped in love.
Don't get me wrong, people from all ages have made many grievous errors, clergy and not, but it shouldn't lessen one's understanding of what faith is. Is it four walls? Or is it something based upon a relationship of love? If we wish to change the world, yes pray, pray for strength to do what is right, to choose wisely, to love deeply, to be kinder, more considerate, put value where life is concerned, etc.
And, if someone does believe that God is Love, that the Bible is filled with Divine Truth, maybe they do so because they feel deep down that they are a part of something very beautiful. There's nothing wrong with that. And if they do give their last piece of bread for the love of another, why be so glum? That is what being selfless is...something our world would do well in emulating more often than not."so many nice lovely fluffy bunny believers want to think that their religion is a peaceful one and dont like to hear the nasty stuff about it because it shakes up their happy cosy world and reality as they know it"
I don't know that it is that simple.
Most people don't come to a 'whole' religion. They come to the part of it that appeals to them and they have a legitimate case to make that, simply because they believe the part of, say, the bible that relates to Christ does not mean that they believe the part that relates to Leviticus.
Sure, reveal to them the parts that you don't like, but its not reasonable to expect them to accept your judgement that because they accept part of the bible they automatically must follow all of it and that their reaction when you tar them with the leviticus brush is anything more than the reaction you may have IF I said:
" so many rationalists believe only rational explanations of the truth and don't want to hear the non-rational ones because it shakes up their cozy, rational world which slavishly insists that everything must have an apparent reason that is discernable to our limited experience."
A rational argument can be used to both support and refute the big bang. Does that mean we should stop thinking rationally? No.
I'm pretty sure the writers of the gospels would have profound disagreements with the writers of Leviticus.
But their ain't no way to ask them.
cheersYes and many many horrible things will be done in the name of politics, greed and etc. Look at the picture as you want but be sure you are seeing the whole picture. Last i looked my church wasn't defending itself from attacks or attacking other churches. In every world system you will always find aberrations, but when it comes to religion and Jesus and Gods way the only important points are:
a) what are you doing with your belief
b) can you do a better job than those already involved in your belief.
Its actually okay that some christians don't delve into the depths of bible research, not all people are wired to be investigative journalists. Not all christian and people outside of christendom are wired to be intellectual giants who probe the deep mysteries of everything. If we apply this same criticism to the secular world there are humans who believe in karma yet they do not know the 3 types of karma nor about the angry blue elephant that governs karma. Some secular peeps declare they are Buddhists but they do not know the intricacies of buddahism. If we ask chemists to expand on flora and fauna they will be stumped.
The expectation that all christians have to be brainiacs about the bible is lunacy.
Some christians are fine with an surface overview of God and just believe even though they have not rooted through much of the bible and this is fine God accepts them that way.
God does indeed accept both the sheep and brainiac.
Its nice that people do research about God but i question both their ability to research and desire to come to truth when the research is only to debunk and then it stops there. Good and proper research seeks to reconcile problematic areas or formulate conclusions that are sound and makes sense to them.
People whose biblical research has stopped them believing really have done only half the research or even research that is very sloppy.
Gillian,
My experience has been faith is as Hebrews 11:1 says "b]now faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things not seen[/b]." Faith is not blind beliefs as religions teach, faith is a science, you hear something then to determine if it's true you look for evidence and substance to support it. If none is found you are to then reject it, if something is found you accept it as true.
Faith is a belief in things not seen. The universe points to the hand of a creator, but I don't think it matters what you call it, or how you define it. It can be different for every person. I have eight children. They each call me something different. I don't love them more or less based on how they call out to me. I love them because they are, basically, my creation. We are all Gods creation, and he loves his creation, regardless of whether we call him God, Father, Jehova, Allah, or whatever. And just because we don't believe in a creator doesn't negate his existence. Just like when one of my kids disowns me. It doesn't make me any less a parent.
Namasteand just because we DO believe in an invisible creator, doesnt mean he she or it does exist (and loves everyone) either, any more than the flying spaghetti monster, the giant teacup and saucer, or the invisible pink unicorn does
i love this quote about the IPU by the way:
Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them. — Steve Eley
many peoples over many thousands of years have had (and died for) their faith in many gods and goddesses which quite simply did not exist
i wonder to myself, now that no one believes in the Egyptian god of creation (for example) who was worshipped for about 3000 years....has he ceased to exist? and let us not forget Egyptian Isis nursing her baby son Horus, worshipped not only by the egyptians but well into the 6th century AD, i wonder what happened to her, perhaps you think they are all still sat there, with all the other forgotten gods on a cosmic shelf somewhere?
it sounds so happy and lovely to say it doesnt matter what we call him because 'he' loves us anyway, but if you read all the other creation stories of the world past and present, firstly you will start to think how ridiculous they all sound to the ears of people who werent brought up believing them, and as soon as people stop believing in any of these gods, they definitely stop existing, they cant all possibly exist simultaneously can they?
so some must be real and others false, OR all of them are false and just invisible friends created by various human tribes to explain things they otherwise couldnt explainThe 100's of incorrect interpretations of the universe have no bearing on the true nature of the universe.
When the 'best' minds thought the world was at the centre of a series of spheres that was a mistaken perception. The world did not cease to exist simply because we started to perceive it in a rational way.
If a creator exists, the hundreds of incorrect perceptions of the creator have zero probative value in determining whether there is or is not one.
whether there is one that fits a given religion? Sure, you can say that every religion has missed the mark in defining god.
I'll even support your belief that there isn't one.
But then I'll ask you, how did purposeless matter and energy develop the purposeful activity known as life? You will speculate and I will. You'll come down on the side that supports your bias, and I'll come down on the side that supports mine. Perhaps we'll agree. Perhaps not.
Neither of us are currently able to answer that question. but we will continue to try. We'll both come up with what we can accept.
We only lose if we refuse to listen.
I don't know the nature of or even whether or not there is a god.
Neither does anyone else.
cheers"But then I'll ask you, how did purposeless matter and energy develop the purposeful activity known as life? You will speculate and I will. You'll come down on the side that supports your bias, and I'll come down on the side that supports mine."
What's wrong with setting aside any speculation (except as a starting point to be discussed/researched/tested) and any personal bias, then coming down on the side with the most evidence?
The answer, of course, is that few can completely set aside their bias and fewer still are willing to do so. The result is, just as you say, we come down on the side we wanted to from the start.
The odd thing is that most of us don't live our daily lives that way - we only decide religious/spiritual matters by looking for only answers that agree with our belief. If our car won't start we don't decide it's out of gas and direct every effort to prove that and then, when we find there is gas, continue to insist there isn't. Why?Wilderness:
"The answer, of course, is that few can completely set aside their bias and fewer still are willing to do so. The result is, just as you say, we come down on the side we wanted to from the start."
Wilderness:
Just for argument's sake:
Re: Big Bang or whatever...What if you both are right? Couldn't someone like God who is All-Knowing do something as easy as create the concept of Big Bang and set it in motion? Why not? There isn't any empirical evidence that there wasn't someone in existence prior to Big Bang, science only explains something that is limited to time. What if God is Infinite? Couldn't He do it without you or I knowing so? If God didn't do it, then who cares? But if He did...? Perhaps the problem lay in that some might not easily see the Hand of God at work before the BB, but that doesn't mean He should be discounted.What you say is correct - there is no evidence that God did not create the big bang.
But.
Given that both sides accept the big bang (implicit in your scenario), it needs to stop there. The addition of God to an accepted answer is, as you say, without refutation, but it is also without evidence. It is inserted solely to provide an answer that agrees with a bias. All of your questions essentially point to our ignorance of any answer (to the question of God's existence), and without a preconceived bias there is no reason to consider anything of the sort. Without a built in bias there is no reason to insert God by saying we can't show otherwise.
And that's a good thing or we would also have to insert the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Pink Unicorn, Thor, Odin and every other God ever thought of. No evidence = reason to assume just doesn't work.Wilderness:
Give the scientists some credit. They will ask the hard questions and will go and try to answer them. I am patient and won't be too surprised when they find out that the answer was there all along. You won't be surprised because you heard it here. Take care, my friend. It was great discussing this topic with you and the others. Off to do some Hub-writing.--DebWrite a good one, Deb! And maybe you'll write one for me too? I haven't made my goal yet this month.
Wilderness: Somehow I keep getting distracted
...even so, if I come up with anything interesting, I'll let you know. Happy New Year to you and yours! May it be healthful, prosperous and full of peace and joy! And, I wish this for all our Hubbers, too! See you in the forums next year!--DebNext year it is, then. If you can last that long away from the forums; I can't.
A Happy and prosperous New Year to you as well. May all our traffic climb to the sky!
Interesting.. God, however, was around before scientists discovered the "big bang theory", so God is not just an add on here but actually shows where science - stops, typically, before the 'addition' of God.
Scientists say that all things vibrate, especially sound.
"and God said, let there be light". speech, vibration. How did moses know that?
Also there is no hebrew or aramaic word for explosion, you won't find the word explosion in the bible. at least not back then, but if there had been an explosion that caused a light, the big bang probably produced it and coincidently, moses explained in accordance with science as best he could.
What's wrong with setting aside any speculation (except as a starting point to be discussed/researched/tested) and any personal bias, then coming down on the side with the most evidence?
The problem isn't that we can't release our own bias. Sometimes coming down to the side that presents the most evidence can actually change a bias. But just because one side comes up with more evidence than the other side doesn't mean the other side is wrong. Hence criminals going free because of "reasonable doubt" and innocent men incarcerated because of prosecution evidence.
btw the bible is full of people who 'heard' or 'claimed to hear' a voice that no one else could hear, and claimed it was a 'god', or an angel or a demon, most of us would call those people stark staring bonkers and have them commited
But prove them wrong. Prove that they in fact were simply not functioning correctly. Prove that they did not hear a god, angel or demon. I can't.
Since rational arguments are about proof, you would, in your assertion that most are crazy, be required to prove that a unique event was not what the only person who witnessed/experienced it says it was. Of course you are free yourself not to believe it, but that won't change the conviction of the one who does. Impasse.
You might be right. It might be true that EVERYONE who hears voices is crazy. or lying.
What a success that would be, if all evil had to do to prevent faith was to introduce doubt. So easy to dismiss. Much harder to actually explore.
It is just as limiting to stand on 'all those who hear voices are crazy' as it is to stand on 'because the bible says. . .' or 'studies have shown'.
The position that keeps us from looking is the position that limits our life.
cheers
I don't think it's about knowing you're right, so much as knowing that you've got it right for YOU. Just like when looking in a mirror, your right may not be another person's right.
I think faith comes from observation that sometimes great things can happen from seemingly nowhere and at seemingly helpless times. Faith is the refusal to give up hope.
Faith doesn't have to be strictly religious. Faith can just be hope.ThompsonPen: "I think faith comes from an observation that sometimes great things can happen from seemingly nowhere and at seemingly helpless times. Faith is the refusal to give up hope.
Faith doesn't have to be strictly religious. Faith can just be hope."
I believe that we are talking about the many definitions of faith. Faith from a secular point of view is seen as a "hope" and with that I agree. Faith is also "love." Faith is also "charity." No, faith doesn't have to be religious, but if you feel that you are drawn to someone wonderful that you cannot explain but know is real, it takes faith to go forth and learn about this person, so that you can have a more informed relationship with that person. Religion, I think tries to answer as best as our weak words cannot, the undefinable. That doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, He may not be fully understood by human words or concepts. We can understand bits and pieces of who He is but the "wholeness" of who God is will remain a Mystery as long as we are on earth, unfortunately.
- brotheryochananposted 12 years ago0
"he or she or it would not be so cruel as to send a kind person who led a good life to hell for choosing the wrong religion"
People think that God is all about what is good and that people who are good and not allowed to live in Gods eternal afterlife are the victims of Gods unfairness.
This premise is untrue.
Although God is an advocate for Goodness this is not what qualifies anyone for eternal life.
Relationship with God qualifies people for eternal life, or to paraphrase, live with Him. Goodness is just a part of that relationship and not the goodness of man but the 'high bar' goodness that God is.Just thinking out loud.
When we look at life in the cycle everything around us shows is the nature of all things, see the 2 half of the cycle and 2 short transitions from one to the other we will recognize, looking at the transitions between evenings -- {time preceding light} -- and mornings {time of light}, the only time devil and god isn't believed in is during the short transitions. If we see that then we can see the civilizations are hell into which everyone who remains on earth after the transition comes into the belief in.
The biblical name for god is JHWH or YeHoVeH means I AM THAT I AM therefore, if one were to use a pronoun for god or devil it would be IT.We are just created by God and all of the things that we can see and we can't see. We are created to worship God by following his instructions on how to worship Him, we can't do worship Him by our own way. And one more thing God that everybody needs to know that God is the one whose choosing people who will do the worship for Him, people can't claim it, Like the people of the Israel before, they are the only people that God recognize as His people and God accepting their worship service aside from there's none. So be the chosen people of God. Learn it from Iglesia Ni Cristo ( Church of Christ ) watch NET 25 or channel 49 from Philippines.
Where does faith come from? That is like asking, "What does 'Ditty Wah Ditty' mean?"
The answer is the same. If you don't already know, I can't tell you.This may help someone; Faith is believing in something yet to be seen, so from that I personally would say that faith comes from the Word of God.
Everyone keeps addressing where faith comes from but what I really asked of those with faith is WHY they are faithful. To me, those are different questions. I asked because I have never heard a reason that makes sense, and I was curious. I am beginning to see, as I already believed, that faith really is blind and there is no real "why." I respect that, but it still does't make sense to me.
This being the gist. What did I tell you? Does Ditty Wah Ditty make sense to you? Yet, I am singing it as I'm dancing down the street.
Now, it's all good! If you don't hear the music . . . how can you dance?
http://youtu.be/aclcD36r44Q
Is about being right?I guess I am just trying to understand the mentality of someone who can accept something so incredibly huge and base their life on it with no burden of proof or logical reason. I am trying to understand how and why they think they made the right choice as best as I can. It comes down to curiosity... I am fascinated by the perspectives of others whether I agree with them or not. I am not trying to be right.... In fact I can't be right because I have made it clear I don't even know what I believe... I am just trying to learn about others and understand what I can about faith and belief. I have greatly appreciated all the insights given so far.
One heart . . . one love . . . let's get together and feel alright!
Isn't it like the King in the book of Ecclesiastes. He was the wisest man, with the most resources at his disposal. He could never reach understanding. He became frustrated and cried out, "Pondering the meaning of life and eternity is a grievous task given to men to do during their days under the sun. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity!"
At the end of the book, he concludes that it is good to do honest work and have a nice meal with your family at the end of the day.
It is my favorite book in the Bible. He says some stuff that doesn't seem like it comes from the Bible, like, "Don't be overly righteous. Why should you ruin yourself?"
Too many people skip that part.That actually sounds quite reasonable. I can see why it is your favorite.
I find it interesting that the author had such a profound, desperate struggle to understand the nature and reason for existence.
I like the Native American approach to the "Great Spirit". When they are living in the "old ways" they spend most of their time and intellect in learning the ways of the animals and the natural world. A native American can sit still and watch for an incredibly long time. I guess in such a culture "be here now" is innate. In our culture, we are directed down roads built to destinations chosen by others. We can't walk where we want to anymore.
Carolyn Rae:
You ask: "Why one is Faithful?" In simplistic terms, it's kind of like a child who believes that their mom and dad loves them. This child, in turn, will try to do his/her best because they love these two people so very much. If the child fails at times, the child knows by faith that they are not going to be abandoned, misled, or hurt---rather they know that they will still be loved unconditionally. The act of being loved this way, causes this child to continually strive to do whatever he/she can do to give honor and glory to the parents. In a secular way, that is what being faithful is.
I came across a wonderful website that addresses your question: http://www.archmil.org/c4video/C4-series.htm (look for video "What is Faith" etc.) There are a number of other videos on that site that answer a plethora of "faith-related" questions and maybe you will find your answer there. I also wrote a Hub about this, since this is the Year of Faith for Roman Catholics. I suppose if you Google, you will find more than your share of insights on faith. Incidentally, I reviewed a number of the videos that are from the C4-Ignite Your Faith Website above. The individual who discusses the topics of faith is a very good man and I know him personally. Best Regards--DebThank you so much, Deb! I really appreciate that.
Shhhh! Do you want everyone to find out? It is a free, but I was trying to think of a way I could turn a profit by writing articles and signing up new members, like a tracker code from a website.
The Bible says that we should seek out our own salvation with fear & trimbling. John 5:39, tells us to search the scriptures. Ephesians 4:5, says there's one lord, one faith, one Baptism (this is God's intended doctrine); if we all focus on John 5:39 with all of our heart, God will reveal His true doctrine, and His plan for salvation.
Why would a good god want you to be afraid?
I have done that already, hence why I'm an atheist now
It's a matter of choice. God gave us all free will. He wants us to choose Him. I choose to believe.
because believing extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence - at least if you care if your beliefs are true. What evidence do you have?
I believe because I had a personal experience with God. He started to put convictions upon me for the way I was living. I fell on my face before Him at an alter, ahamed of myself in tears, repenting of my sins, and asking for forgiveness, through that process His Spirit poured out onto me and I received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues which lasted over an hour, and the next morning when I woke up from my sleep, I was still drunk with the Spirit of God, and I have been living for him ever since. Once you receive the Holy Ghost, His Spirit empowers you and you start receiving revelation of His Word, and from that, your Faith begins to grow on a daily basis.
How do you know you aren't dilustional? And if you had a personal experience with God then you don't need faith to believe in him...unless you know it was a delusion. And when you believe in something supernatural then everything you experience that is unexpected for you could be a revelation for god. The only thing you are convincing anyof us of is that you are dilustional and hence unreliable for truth or real information.
The idea of free will is fictional, I believe we do have freedom of choice and we can think about these choices and decide which choice is better suited to our frame of reality however that is where the choice ends. Reality. We cannot choose to do something that is not within our nature, or our knowledge, or our experience. We can not will something into existence that is nonexistent (not referring to God here) we cannot choose to float, breath underwater, go without food indefinitely, love a person opposite of our taste, enjoy an event we find boring, abhorrent, distasteful or sickening.... We cannot do things against reality. We can believe whatever we want though.
I will just answer your title question:
My faith comes from my beliefs and I am right because that's my faith!!!I respect that type of faith and think it's really quite beautiful. It still doesn't make sense though.... I mean face it, if one took that type of a stance on everything in life it would be a disaster and that person would be a complete know-it-all who was close-minded and actually wrong most of the time. I just have a hard time accepting that such a thought process should be used for faith. Often though, it is, and by very reasonable people, which I am sure you are. It's just an exception.... I can't wrap my head around it.
Carolyn,
Because that's the way religion has taught people to have blind faith is why the USA is so full of closed minded know-it-alls not open enough to even explore alternative views. Although the Bible says Prove all things; hold fast that which is good and is often taught and preached they still hang on to that mindset. I never could wrap my head around blind faith nor blind obedience, it always seemed to be a control mechanism to me.Spoken like a true close minded know it all.
I'm proud to be a closed minded know-it-all, I don't take offence at name calling because I know I once was just like most all them today. That's a requirement for being a philosophy, which I am so much so that I'm willing to pay whatever price necessary to obtain wisdom.
That's the thing, both sides of any debate need to keep an open mind.
Christianity has never said, "do not study, just believe what i say".. well catholicism has said that but then i said christianity not pagantology... There are so many christians looking up words in greek and hebrew and reading theological books and getting real information in areas that they study that this idea of christians not reading the bible is becoming obsolete. Not everyone has to study the bible or become a theologian or evolve a concept beyond a snake in the garden to worship God and be christian. God says believe. God says love God. God says love your neighbor. God says know me and in each persons way they do. People are wired so differently and God meets them on their level, at their house, work and prayer closet.
So suffice it to say, whatever amount of information a christian has is irrelevant. Gods ways are truly not the ways of man in every area.
As far as closed mindedness goes, Closed mindedness is the inability to learn, which is dependent on the persons attitude or ability. If a person believes in God the rest takes care of itself. Right doctrine or wrong depends on how much and to what extent people believe in God.I hope you saw the word has and not does, because it has taught and even until now sing they [i]Give Me That Old Time Religion[/b] ..."it was good enough got mother and father it's good enough for me," therefore they don't want to change because my parents taught me this way. I do know what's happening in the world today, I don't have blinders on.
Carolyn Rae,
I thought people would notice my sarcasm by seeing that the"!!!" at the end of the line!
C.V.
There is a popular saying that "God sees the truth but waits" . According to me God resides in ourselves . So if we do a good deed then we are helping God. The same can be said about when we help some People out . If you help someone it is a service to God.
It gives me immense pleasure and peace to serve needy People. So the concept of Good, Evil, Bad , Ugly comes from within us. Purify ourselves and we will be nearer to God
I don't need God as a motivator to do good things, it feels good to do good things. It makes me feel like a better person to do good things for the sake of it and not for any sort of promise of a reward. I could care less about a reward, when I lend people money and they say I'll pay you back I tell them "Don't worry about it." I've learned that it's not necessary. I started telling people instead of paying me back just pay it forward. Do good for the sake of doing good, if someone needs help then help them, and if they are grateful and want to pay you back tell them don't worry about it, I am just happy you are okay and safe, tell them, if someone else needs help then help them and EXPECT NOTHING in return. Just be happy that you contributed to someone else's happiness.
The concept of good, evil, bad comes from the Law of the OT and is mentioned very frequently in the NT. Our perception of what is good bad or evil comes from us but the foundation/origin/harm of good bad or evil is explained biblically.
Actually the concept of Good and Evil came before the OT was written. There are religions far older than the Christian Jewish religions, The Hindu religion has these concepts. The fact that you think they come from your Bible just goes to show how ignorant people like you are of the reality of the world around them.
The Bible is full of metaphors, allegories, parables and symbol/types, MAPS , which most Christians believe are direct facts. They are true but only once one learns the intended interpretation of them which, by the NT, one must have a a new birth which includes something they recognize as their conception, gestation, trivial, birth, childhood, adolescence and, if there are any, adulthood. Accordingly, they become strange and unusual people.
To look at the metaphor of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is interpreted bu understanding fruit trees. Once they enter bearing age they produce only a few fruit and with each growing season the fruit numbers increases, is the reason for calling it tree. Knowledge is something eaten by the mind {food for thought}, not by the mouth and it becomes good and evil by one's liking {good} and disliking {evil}, thus, the interpretation explains itself provided we realize the serpent represents [a]wise man[/b] who are considered the lowest scumbags of man, the {crawling on his belly throughout civilization}.I have heard this interpretation before. A long time ago, when I was on the fence, so to speak, I went through the Bible trying to map out all the metaphors, it ended in one of the chapters, when I believe a new author started writing the Bible. Later, after I became an atheist, I came to realize that the first part of the Bible reminded me of an opinion piece in a Fox News program, pseudo philosophical, but very lowbrow. This was also something I heard about in many scholarly interpretations, when they would discuss the mind set and phrasing of the time period. The serpent was never meant to represent Satan, just people who would show you the truth by providing evidence to debunk their God as the (metaphorical) Wizard of Oz..... "don't look behind the curtain, that man is insignificant...." (the preacher/speaker for God.)
I realized it this incarnation by looking the trees and man then questioning where did good and evil come from. Objectively contemplating them I saw trees produce more fruit each season and as man's concepts increased we judged more and more thing good and evil. I saw where Jesus said be wise as serpents and an OT prophet saying man calls good evil and evil good so Jesus was giving the true metaphorical interpretation of serpents. Thus, reasoning, using logic to support it, brought that interpretation to me.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/04/ … hin-brain/
FoxNews is only one resource for this discussion. It's a fascinating concept.Nothing that comes out of Fox news has any truth to it.
- Jerry Hulseposted 11 years ago0
I suggest reading my book "The Way To God" on Amazon which is a very low price. It may open up your thinking.
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