God Bless America

1. 52

   AnalogousMethodposted 10 years ago

   What a great country. Let me tell you a story about a man and his wife.
   
   This man worked hard for "the man" for a decade out of high school, and lost his job. His wife was working on her degree. He started looking for more work, but the economy was bad due to everybody and their dog setting it up for failure.
   
   So, he took charge and started his own business, risking everything for the American Dream. After a year of working 80+ hours every week, he finally started to see success. Maybe now they will be able to afford those children they have talked about.
   
   In 2014, he will be able to pay himself a respectable $80,000. Yay for the American Dream. It's only $19/hr, but that's not bad for what he built himself.
   But, of course, let's not forget about income taxes. $71,500. Yay for the American Dream.
   Oh yeah, state income taxes too. $66,750. Yay for the American Dream.
   Oops, forgot to pay self-employment tax. $55,400. Yay for the American Dream.
   Oh yeah, he has to buy his ACA insurance. $49,256. Yay for the American Dream. Ok, so he made $11/hr. Still good, right?
   Mortgage. $31,256.
   Property Tax. $29,256.
   Food: $23,000.
   Gas:  $19,000.
   Electricity: $17,000.
   Self-funded retirement account: $9,000.
   Car payment: $6,000
   Miscellaneous expenses: $4,000(Don't forget his health insurance deductible is $12,000)
   
   Not much left for having kids, saving for college, dealing with emergencies, or anything else, is there? Not to mention tuition for his wife, books, or any other expense you could imagine.
   
   America. Land of the free. Where a man who works over 4000 hours a year and creates an $80,000/year paycheck for himself can possibly looking at having $4,000 of actual disposable income. Where a man pays $25,000 in taxes and doesn't have enough left to be able to responsibly think about having kids. Where a man pays 30% of his income into taxes, and watches the government spend $6 billion on a broken website, or spend $150 million to study why lesbians are obese, or spends $250 billion on its inability to live within its means.
   
   It's broken.

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   1. 0

      TMDHemsley17posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Well put, my friend.

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   2. 60

      Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Absolutely let's look at a better system.
      
      Man is born... his parents can't afford to pay a doctor for the birth and so have to do it themselves, he is born breach, he dies.
      
      Yay life before taxation was so much better.
      
      OR maybe he is lucky and survives his birth and doesn't get sick then someone breaks into his home, he calls the police and... oh wait the police don't exist. Life was better before taxes.
      
      Then he grows up (like my father) in household too poor to afford schooling so he never learns how to read... as a consequence his chances of having a job at all in the modern world are pretty slim.
      
      Or maybe he gets lucky there too and get's married at which point an army takes all he has and rapes his wife because there is no army to protect him, life was better before taxation.
      
      Or maybe the mining company a few kilometers away contaminates his water source so he goes to the court for a redress of grievances... wait courts don't exist either... So he just complains to the mine which sends a few heavies round to his house to beat him with pick handles. (Used to be common practice).
      
      Or maybe he just dies at that job he has because there is no such thing as workplace safety and companies are more than happy to expose their employees to dangerous conditions or lock them in highly flammable buildings.
      
      Or maybe he gets lucky there too but his house catches fire so he calls the fire service... which doesn't exist and comes to help him on the roads which also don't exist, life was better before taxation.
      
      How people can be this blind is beyond me.

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      1. 60

         Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Oh and don't forget he is probably dead of or crippled by Polio since the Polio vaccine was developed by the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis.
         
         and if he gets cancer his survival chances are basically Zilch since Chemotherapy was created on British government funding.
         
         Or actually probably of just a common infection since Penicillin was discovered and purposed in publicly funded universities.
         
         Or Tuberculosis since streptomycin was developed in a public research facility.
         
         etc. etc.
         
         Hooray for no taxes.

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      2. 52

         AnalogousMethodposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Somebody missed the point, and went straight for the scarecrow.
         
         How people can be so obtuse is beyond me. If I mention that it's ridiculous for the government to be spending money studying lesbian obesity when the taxpayers are struggling to survive, THEN OMG U WANT BABIES TO DIE!
         
         If I mention that it's ridiculous for the government to spend $250 billion a year on nothing(interest), THEN OMG U DONT WANT POLICE SO THE WORLD WILL BURN.

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         1. 60

            Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            No your diatribe was a rant about taxation as in you listed all taxes. If you list all taxes then all services provided by them are relevant.
            
            Otherwise go back and change your diatribe.
            
            Pretty simple really.

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            1. 52

               AnalogousMethodposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I didn't say all taxes are wrong(they are, but I can concede a minarchist government). I simply stated the current situation, and I didn't list all taxation.
               
               You seem to be of the mind that someone must accept all taxation or be against all taxation.
               
               It wasn't diatribe, it was an illustration of how large our government has grown. Support it 100% if you want, but some of us don't want to see our money wasted so much.

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               1. 60

                  Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  "Oh yeah, state income taxes too. $66,750. Yay for the American Dream.
                  Oops, forgot to pay self-employment tax. $55,400. Yay for the American Dream.
                  Oh yeah, he has to buy his ACA insurance. $49,256. Yay for the American Dream.
                  Property Tax. $29,256."
                  
                  See you listed all these taxes, well guess where those taxes go? To the things I mentioned.
                  
                  I don't agree with a lot of government spending, I think we spend way too much on the army for example but this seems to be where the public consensus lies so yeah.

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                  1. 52

                     AnalogousMethodposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     All I did was list how much money goes to each type of taxation. You're taking information out of that post that isn't there due to your bias.
                     
                     If you had to give 100% of your income to taxation, would complaining about it mean you wanted no taxation?

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         2. 60

            Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            As for Obese lesbians do you know what Fleming was studying when he discovered Penicillin? (probably the most life saving discovery in modern history) he was studying Staphylococcus a harmless bacteria found in dirt. By comparison the Lesbian obesity research is far more likely to be life saving.
            
            Preliminary research indicates there is a connection between genes that lead to weight gain (through the thyroid gland) and the genes that cause female same sex orientation, it is possible there will be a correlation between the two in genome patterns allowing the study to isolate genes both correlating to general weight gain and/or same sex attraction, isolating these genes is important particularly in the first case as people with weight gain genes often require more specialized diet and medical treatment to correct hypothyroidism.
            
            Long story short isolating genes that control the thyroid will allow doctors to predict ahead of time people who will have serious thyroid issues and thus prevent the myriad of problems caused by thyroid issues which affect tens of millions of Americans, basically the study might end up saving millions of lives and is potentially important to many people who are not gay, the study is not being done for the benefit of the LGBT community but for the benefit of people with genetic thyroid issues.
            
            I know science isn't really you field... that's why actual medical researchers want this research done... because they actually understand what you don't have the education to understand.

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            1. 52

               AnalogousMethodposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               The role of government in research is an entire topic we could go on and on about. At best, it's a waste of time and resources. At worst, it's a huge waste of time and resources.
               
               Yeah, you can discover great things accidentally, but you can also waste a lot of time and money studying crap.
               
               Studying obesity isn't for the common good. Studying lesbian obesity is even less for the common good. Regardless, you are far too fixated on one example, while simultaneously ignoring the point that the example illustrates. You're attacking it from both sides, which doesn't make any sense.
               
               Since I don't want to waste time arguing over medical research, let's focus on the example I posted that is 1600 times larger than that. $250 billion a year spent on interest, and that amount is getting ready to double.
               
               Why should a self-employed guy making $80k have to pay so much in taxes that he can't even think about having kids, when the government is just throwing away hundreds of billions a year on interest?

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                  Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  You again posted about that research. It is for the common good to study thyroid issues, I am sorry you don't understand how the scientific process works but this is it and the greatest discoveries in modern history come from tax funded research.
                  
                  First you posted a list of all the taxes this person is influenced by then didn't want to talk about all that pays for so then you noted another example now you don't want to talk about that either.
                  
                  Then when I prove your next one valuable too you'll run from that also.

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               2. 61

                  John Holdenposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Without all that government money wasted on research  you would now be weeding your garden or painting the spare room because without government money wasted on research there would be no computers and therefore no internet.

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                  1. 56

                     Education Answerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     That's absolutely not true.  Al Gore invented the Internet.

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                     1. 61

                        John Holdenposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        

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                     2. 88

                        Zelkiiroposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        And, as we all know, the internet is a series of tubes.

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   3. 56

      Education Answerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I, too, agree that this is well put.

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   4. 68

      Cody Hodge5posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Um....why would he be working as a sole proprietor?
      
      If he just sets up a S corp he can deduct a lot of those expenses from his taxes and lower his tax rate too.......
      
      And unless your talking about his business, why the hell is this guy spending $17,000 a year for electricity and $500 a month for a car?
      
      $31,000 for a mortgage a YEAR? Where is this guy living?
      
      This numbers are all outrageous to say the least
      
      .

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      1. 52

         AnalogousMethodposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Wow. Ok, here's a hint. Each number is lower than the previous number. It's a running total. So no, not $17,000 for electricity. $2,000 for electricity.

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         1. 68

            Cody Hodge5posted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Ok, well....
            
            Why is this guy still a sole proprietor?
            
            Also, why doesn't his wife work?
            
            Is it just easier to complain instead?

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   5. 0

      PrettyPantherposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Well, let's see, he has a nice home (a $1500/mo mortgage is pretty darn nice), a car, health insurance (man people don't), a retirement account (many people don't'), and a food budget that allows him to eat regularly and healthfully (many people don't).  So, I'd say, he's living the American Dream way better than most people.  Now, working 80 hours per week is not fun (at least I don't think so), but he's choosing to do so in order to have that $1500 mortgage.  I personally raised two children on $20,000 (in 1995) to $52,000 per year (what I was making when the last one graduated from high school).  Of course, I had a modest mortgage of $600/month and drove my vehicles long past when they were paid off.  So, pardon me if I'm not buying that he can't reasonably raise children on $80,000/year.  Also, he pays taxes so he can live in a safe neighborhood, drink clean water, drive on a safe and reliable transportation system, enjoy nature in local and national parks, trust that his money is safe at the bank, and on and on. 
      
      My oh my, what a terrible life he has. 

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      1. 60

         Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         +1

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   6. 0

      Brenda Durhamposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      There are some things in dire need of fixing, yes.   Or just outright deletion.
      Like property taxes.
      Inheritance taxes.
      etc.
      
      Not totally broken yet, no.
      But yeah it needs a lot of repair to get it working right.

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2. 60

   bBereanposted 10 years ago

   Perhaps if he would just give the government that last $4k, they could provide him with everything they feel he needs!

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3. 52

   AnalogousMethodposted 10 years ago

   Just curious Josak, do you think a man who risked everything to start his own business and pays himself $80,000 should pay $25,000 in income taxes, or more, or less?

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   1. 60

      Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I think he should be making more than 80 000, as it happens there is no correlation between disposable income and taxation, the highest disposable income in the world per capita is Norway, it has the second highest tax burden in the world.
      
      And I think there should be assistance available to reduce his risk.

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      1. 52

         AnalogousMethodposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Why should he be making more than $80,000, and how should that figure be changed?
         
         Do you think he is paying enough, too much, or too little?

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         1. 60

            Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Better educations, more citizen investment, better small business assistance etc. etc.

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            1. 52

               AnalogousMethodposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Ok, ideally.
               
               How much should the average person be making, and how much should they be paying in taxes?

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               1. 60

                  Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Without meaning to be condescending...
                  
                  That question does not make much sense...
                  
                  Ideally everyone makes a trillion bazillion dollars and no taxes are necessary since everyone has embraced solidarity and voluntarism and non one needs anything from others since they can afford everything themselves anyway.
                  
                  Sorry, I really am not trying to be insulting...

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                  1. 52

                     AnalogousMethodposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     You say that this hypothetical man should be making more than $80,000. I'm just wondering how much more. If you think he should make more, then it sounds like you have an ideal in your mind. I'm guessing it would involve having mostly everyone(or everyone) earning roughly or exactly the same?
                     
                     And I'm still trying to get you to tell me how much he should be paying in taxes.

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                     1. 60

                        Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        As I said ideally everyone makes an unlimited amount of money. The way the question is phrased it's impossible to answer. As long as all basic needs are met there is no need for everyone to make the same amount of money or even similar amounts.
                        
                        It's not a matter of how much tax he should be paying but how much is required to do what's necessary. If it were up to me the overall tax burden would drop be the way it's spent would be very different but it's just a personal opinion.

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                        1. 52

                           AnalogousMethodposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           So, ideally, scarcity just vanishes?
                           
                           What about in the real world? He should make more, but pay less taxes, but taxes should be spent better?
                           
                           Funny that you actually agree with me on the taxation issue, at least in principle, when you made such a fuss about it earlier.

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                           1. 60

                              Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              No your comment is about taxation in general and about certain taxes and spending. I agree with those taxes in general and with those examples in specific. I would have no objection to those taxes as they are right now if they were all going to things I support. As it is I think those things could be achieved without all of that tax money but it would't be much less though it would be differently distributed.

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                              1. 56

                                 Education Answerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 You support exorbitant taxes as long as these taxes support policies that mirror your own wishes and desires?  How is this not opinion?  Get off your high horse.  We all give opinion.

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                                 1. 60

                                    Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    When did I say that my statement wasn't opinion...?
                                    
                                    I am pretty sure you imagined that. Actually I am sure you did...

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                                    1. 56

                                       Education Answerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       You didn't say it was opinion, but when other people give their opinions, you arrogantly act as if they can't use data and have to rely upon hyperbole and opinionated rhetoric.  Get off your high horse.

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      2. 56

         Education Answerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         There's no correlation between income tax and disposable income?  Yeah right.  I make the correlation every paycheck.  I don't need data on Norway's system to know that I'm paying too much in tax.  Local, state, and federal taxes result in the government taking more of my money than I get to keep.  Here's a list of some of the taxes that may or may not apply to you.  Personally, I pay a lot of these taxes.
         
         There's something wrong with a system that takes the majority of a worker's income and leaves the worker perpetually broke.
         
         Accounts Receivable Tax
         Building Permit Tax
         Capital Gains Tax
         CDL license Tax
         Cigarette Tax
         Corporate Income Tax
         Court Fines (indirect taxes)
         Dog License Tax
         Federal Income Tax
         Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
         Fishing License Tax
         Food License Tax
         Fuel permit tax
         Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
         Health Insurance Tax (Obamacare)
         Hunting License Tax
         Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
         Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
         IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
         Liquor Tax
         Local Income Tax
         Luxury Tax
         Marriage License Tax
         Medicare Tax
         Property Tax
         Real Estate Tax
         Septic Permit Tax
         Service Charge Taxes
         Social Security Tax
         Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
         Sales Taxes
         Recreational Vehicle Tax
         Road Toll Booth Taxes
         School Tax
         State Income Tax
         State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
         Telephone federal excise tax
         Telephone federal universal service fee tax
         Telephone federal, state and
         Local surcharge taxes
         Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
         Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
         Telephone state and local tax
         Telephone usage charge tax
         Toll Bridge Taxes
         Toll Tunnel Taxes
         Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
         Trailer Registration Tax
         Utility Taxes
         Vehicle License Registration Tax
         Vehicle Sales Tax
         Watercraft Registration Tax
         Well Permit Tax
         
         Pretty soon, we'll start taxing taxes.  Can anybody add more taxes to the list?

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         1. 60

            Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            No studying other systems would be too logical you would just prefer to rely on hyperbole and personal opinion rather than actual data.

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            1. 56

               Education Answerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Is it a fact that our government takes more than half our money? Yes.  How is that personal opinion?  Do you want to debate that little fact?
               
               You "use" data.  You rely on twisting facts, manipulating data, and constantly belittling America by "proving" that virtually every other country is superior.  You always have some long, bemoaning story about how another country is superior.  At what point do we consider that opinion? It gets old and tiresome. 
               
               Let me be clear.  We pay too much in tax.  Any country that takes more than it leaves is taxing its citizens too much.  Sorry that's not progressive enough for you.  If a corporation treated its employees the same way our government treats its citizens, you'd be all over that corporation.  When our government does it, you'll spend hours trying to justify its actions.  Wrong is wrong, and frankly I don't care whether or not you consider this to be opinion.  I don't care whether or not you can provide volumes of pseudo reality in the form of studies and comparisons among countries.  Moral values can't be proven, and I believe it is immoral for a country to be as greedy as ours is. 
               
               Let's redistribute some wealth from the government back into the hands of the people who earned the money in the first place!

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               1. 60

                  Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Well we don't tax more than we leave so it's good to know you don't think we take too much
                  
                  TO be precise we take 26.9%
                  
                  So yes facts...
                  
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … age_of_GDP
                  
                  That is NOT an opinion. Oh and that figure is from the Heritage foundation so if anything it's less.
                  
                  You guys just get so riled up over imaginary injustices.

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                  1. 56

                     Education Answerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     "You guys"
                     
                     Do you even read what people write? 
                     
                     I pay tax on everything I purchase, except food at the grocery store.  I pay federal tax, state tax, phone tax, auto tax, utility tax, land tax, air quality tax, social security tax, health insurance taxes, gas tax, and probably about a hundred more taxes.  Don't tell me what I do or don't pay in taxes.  The majority of my money goes to the local, state, or federal government.  I'm quite confident other people pay these taxes too.
                     
                     "We" get riled up over imaginary injustices? Stop it, I can't stop laughing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You and many other liberals are all about sanctimoniously correcting all of the injustices in the word by expanding government.  Josak, I didn't know you had it in you.  You're really hilarious!

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                        Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        Exactly what I mean there is the anecdotal (incorrect) opinion and the complete rejection of the actual facts right in front of you.
                        
                        You said:  "Any country that takes more than it leaves is taxing its citizens too much. "
                        
                        You were wrong that America does:
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … age_of_GDP
                        http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
                        http://www.oecd.org/redirect/dataoecd/4 … 771900.xls
                        http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/t … d_20758510
                        http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts … opic2id=95
                        
                        The actual burden is just over 25% According to international bodies, the heritage foundation, the OECD and Congress. Links above.
                        
                        Which you then completely ignore to have another rant. As soon as a fact is presented the blinders come down and conservative fact ignore mode is engaged.

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                     wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Gotta love it.  The discussion is about how much govt. takes from my paycheck and you provide a link that implies it is 24%.
                     
                     Uncle Sam wants 15%, FICA wants 7.5% and the state wants 8%.  That's over 30% and we still need to add in that long list EA provided, plus the new $4,000 per year ACA "tax".
                     
                     I'll think about that as I write the checks for my RV tax ($100), irrigation tax ($139) and real property ($1200).  Then I'll think some more when I gas up the car, call my wife on the phone and pick up a little Jack to console myself at the thought of the extra taxes.  24% my eye!

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                        Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        The conversation is about how much the government takes from the American paycheck... Not your individual paycheck.
                        
                        As for that well the facts are already there. If you disagree with them I suggest you write a very angry letter to the OECD, Congress (which really we all should anyway), the UN, the World Bank and the Heritage foundation letting them know you will come fix their data collection for them.
                        
                        It's also not 24%...

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4. 52

   AnalogousMethodposted 10 years ago

   Josak, why do you insist on being condescending and insulting?
   
   If you want to insult someone's education, at least try to use proper grammar and spelling when you do.
   
   I don't want to talk about the government's role in research in this thread, as it's a separate topic. Yes, it's connected to my original post, but that example is only a tiny part of the current topic.
   
   If you want to discuss a mountain, there is no point in arguing over a rock.

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      Josakposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I am not insulting your education I am noting a fact, you aren't a geneticist with a specialization in thyroid ism are you?
      
      Neither am I.
      
      People who actually do know what they are talking about and ARE decide what requires funding (like that Obese lesbians research). Crazy I know.

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      1. 52

         AnalogousMethodposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Yeah, see, that's not what you said.
         
         "Science isn't you field"
         "Don't have the education to understand"
         "don't understand how the scientific process works"

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