Ignorance isTemporary:

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   It seems, the word "God" really represents an unknown to most, whether theist, atheist or other.
   
   
   I believe it our destiny to KNOW God,
   either in this lifetime or another,
   or maybe a couple of lifetimes after that...
   
   
   Question for those who have an answer:
   
                                                   HOW?

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      Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Weird that you insist it exists even though you cannot define it then.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         ...this was meant to be a short thread. Go away.
         (- just kidding. You know you inspired this topic.)

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            Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Well, I must admit to being fascinated with people who insist "God" is real yet are unable to define what they mean by the word.
            
            I often say to them - you define it, I will disprove it.

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               hack writerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               Why?

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                  Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  The phenomenon is interesting. Amongst many other human characteristics. Aren't you interested also? Don't you want to understand how your subconscious could alert you to potential danger? And why it doesn't always work?

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                     hack writerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     Sure, I do.
                     
                     But I was asking why you are trying to prove and convince others that there is nothing other than you, your mind and subconscious. That there is nothing bigger than humans.
                     
                     Let's just not call it anything / let's call it something (since you seem to be hung up with labels, definitions, names and such.)
                     
                     I'd say if there is something beyond, why not connect and see where it takes you?
                     If there is something beyond and you constantly spit in its face you might see where that takes you.
                     
                     If there is nothing beyond, you will just stay where you are, no harm done.

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                        Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        Bigger physically or intellectually?  There is nothing intellectually bigger than humans.
                        
                        There is nothing to call
                        
                        Hallucinating can indeed connect, but that is not reality, is it?
                        
                        There is a harm, your life is wasted. Why disguise Pascal's wager?

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                           hack writerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           There is nothing intellectually bigger than humans?
                           Reality has to be tangible?
                           
                           I'm not sure.

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                              Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              There is none, more intelligence is a hindrance to life.
                              
                              Not tangible but definable.

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                        Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        I am not hung up on anything. I have connected to many things bigger than myself and been many interesting places. Please stop putting words in my mouth. You asked me no such thing.
                        
                        What is this beyond of which you speak? Show me how I "spit in it's face" You seem very hung up on that - why?

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                           hack writerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           I am sorry if I have upset you.
                           
                           "I often say to them - you define it, I will disprove it." were your words.
                           
                           I was just wondering why you are so determined to not let others believe whatever they want to believe?

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                              Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              Oh please don't be sorry - you have not upset me at all.
                              
                              And a very good job of not defining anything you have done.
                              
                              I genuinely don't care what you believe. I do care when you start telling me what you think I should be doing and misrepresenting what I have said. This is where I start being concerned with what you believe.
                              
                              Sorry I offended you so much. Why does it upset you so much that I don't believe in God?

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                                 hack writerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 It doesn't, really.

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                                    Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                    Good oh. All right with you if I keep on arguing against irrational hate-mongering beliefs then?

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                                       hack writerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       Absolutely. As far as I am concerned you can argue as much as you want.

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                     Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     Actually it's rarely right when it comes to things it has no experience with. Intuition tells him/her to turn on his car lights at night, because he has experience driving at night. But when it comes to the afterlife some use intuition and get the wrong answer because they have no experience with the afterlife.

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               Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               The God, in other language under different names - regardless - the Supreme being Creator and sustainer of the Universe as well me and you doesn't depend on anyone approval or disapproval. Without experiencing Him and enjoying Hi love, some might be trying hard to argue their view point,

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                  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Such bold assumptions without any factual basis is called a lie.

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                     Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     might be a lie for you, not for all

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                        Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        It's only a belief, a belief that the charlatans who wrote such things are right but it is made of two untenable claims which has no factual basis.

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                           Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           See, we - everyone  speak only what one knows. You do not know what I do know , you do not have my experiences, and you have great pleasure to put me down. So what ?

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                              Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              What one know can be wrong and has nothing to do with facts. Experiences does tell you about facts.
                              As you said, I don't know you why should I put you down? I am refuting your arguments not putting you down.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  God's existence does not depend on belief, either. He exists whether we believe in Him or not.

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                     Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     Exactly, but he doesn't fulfill the criteria for "exist" either.

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        God does not exist.
                        If he existed, He would……?

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                           Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           Fullfill the criteria to exist,  will have physical presence and shape.

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                              Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              Jesus himself manifested all that God is. He taught Peter to heal as he did. He changed water into wine and walked on water. He taught Paul how to stop his heart and breath, which is an advanced yogic technique. (Thus, Paul could say "I die daily.") He brought people back from death. Jesus came back to life in his own physical body after he had been put to death.
                              
                              Jesus said, "Know ye not that ye are gods? "We manifest with physical presence and shape and yet at the subatomic level we are energy, light, power and life. Where does the spirit go after death?
                              Somewhere…it cannot die.
                              
                              No?

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                                 Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 Jesus didn't psalms did. The wine/healing/walking on water story is fiction. Paul never saw any jesus.
                                 But why do you say all these here?
                                 We have physical presence and we are made of atoms not light or energy.
                                 There is no spirit to go anywhere.

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                                    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                    Edit: As I understand it, atoms are made up of protons and electrons, the basis of energy within the atoms.
                                    
                                    Like electromagnetic energy… the energy of spirit cannot be seen, but our lives are evidence of it... just as working cell phones reveal the evidence of the electromagnetic energy being used.
                                    
                                    
                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of … ic_physics

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                                       Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       wow!
                                       
                                       Basis of energy can be atoms and molecules.
                                       
                                       Spirit doesn't fulfill the criteria for "exist". Our life doesn't reveal any spirit but only chemical reactions just like a car reveal chemical 'energy'.

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                                       Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       "Basis of energy can atoms and molecules." Huh?

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                                          Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                          Can be...
                                          edited.
                                          Hope you know what energy is.

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                                       Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       Protons, neutrons, electrons and quarks are the basis of our existence and everything that exists.
                                       Electrons jumping in atoms generate light. Electrical charge is one of the fundamental properties of matter.

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                                          Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                          ???
                                          What is the relevance?

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                                             Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                             Repeating:  It makes sense to me that the energy of spirit cannot be seen, but our lives are evidence of it... just as working cell phones reveal the evidence of the electromagnetic energy being used.
                                             
                                             BTW "Most of the atoms that make up the Earth and its inhabitants were present in their current form in the nebula that collapsed out of a molecular cloud to form the Solar System."  (From 1001Things Everyone Should Know About Science by James Trefil.)

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                                                Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                Energy and spirit are both concepts,  words that define properties of objects, doesn't exist.
                                                
                                                
                                                Who said it is not? Again relevance?

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                                                   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                   Then I myself am a concept. Good to know.
                                                   Not relevant, but is interesting to contemplate.

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                                                      Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                      If energy is a concept, whose concept is it? the scientists?
                                                      
                                                      "...words that define properties of objects, doesn't exist."
                                                      What do you mean?

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                                                         Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                         Human beings, it is human beings that "conceive" ideas. In this specific case, English men for the language is English.
                                                         
                                                         
                                                         Don't you know what "energy" is? Energy is a property of objects, it is object that exists not property.

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                                                            Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                            Energy exists first. It is everywhere.

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                                                               Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                               Don't you even know the meaning of the terms you use?
                                                               Here this from your favorite source, wikipedia - In physics, energy is a property of objects.
                                                               Property has no independent existence but is our interpretation of the effect it causes on another or a quality of the object. [A physical property is any property that is measurable whose value describes a state of a physical system.- wikipedia]
                                                               Exist has two meanings in common parlance, love exists, rock exists both are different. Love is a concept conceived by animals while rock is an object independent of humans. Your energy is of the former.

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                                                                  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                                  energy:
                                                                  "Virtually all energy used on the earth comes from the sun. It is converted from energy in the form of light to chemical energy by the process of photosynthesis. It can then be stored (in coal or oil for example,) used directly by plants or secondarily used by animals. The energy you are using to hold this book up and move your eyes as you read comes from this route. Eventually the energy we use from the sun becomes waste heat and returns to space as infrared radiation.
                                                                       Thus we do not consume energy so much as use it as it passes through our environment."
                                                                  From the book, 1001 Things Everyone should Know About Science by James Trefil.

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                                                                     Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                                     Still you don't understand the difference between concept and object?
                                                                     The property called energy is the motion. The light (a thing that transmit vibration) comes from sun and cause water and CO2 to combine to form glucose. We consume GLUCOSE which is broken down and is converted to co2 water again and motion of molecules in our body.

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                                                                        Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                                        cool!

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                                                      Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                      You mean you are a computer program?
                                                      If you have physical presence you exist.

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                                                         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                         ...what am I at the subatomic level?

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                                                            Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                            You as a person is not subatomical but molecular and macromolecular. A particular arrangement of molecules, cells(brain) to be specific. Sub atomically the atoms in your body is no different from any other atom of same atomic structure.

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                                                            Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                            Kathryn - you don't even know what a graven image is - I seriously doubt you understand these terms you found on wikipedia. "You" are nothing on a subatomic level.

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                                                               Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                               The facts are staring you naysayers in the face. Just to let you know. At least I recognize them for what they are.
                                                               JTLYK

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                                                                  Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                                  Dear me. There are no facts. LOL

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                                                                     Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                                     Atoms are facts. Subatomic particles are facts. The energy of spirit flowing through all of life is fact. My existence is fact and Jesus said I am a god… … I just haven't realized it yet… well, sometimes I do...

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                                 Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 (1 Corinthians 15:31 KJV)

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                  Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Well - I simply don't believe your claims.
                  I said "disprove" not "approve". But to an extent you are right. whether we believe in it or not it simply doesn't exist. All the time the only "evidence" is claims from people such as yourself, I will stick with that viewpoint.

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         hack writerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Years ago I saw someone who hadn't turned on his lights at night getting on the freeway . My ex was frantically signaling trying to get his attention saying this was a life threatening situation.
         
         The other night I was getting ready myself to get on the freeway without lights at dusk.
         
         This is when I remembered what had happened 25+ years ago. What made me remember?
         
         Ever had a weird incident like that? Can we define it? No. Why would we need to? Just acknowledging it should do. Just being grateful that it is. Just let it be.
         
         Me personally, I don't want it to go away. I had my girl in the car.

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            Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Your subconscious. Clever thing the human mind. With a strong self-preservation instinct. Oh wait  - you didn't want me to define it.

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               hack writerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               You can give it any name you want. That's fine with me.

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                  Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  I didn't give it a name. I explained what happened.

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                     hack writerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     I like your name. Very appropriate.

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                  Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Superstition.

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      kessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      By preserving their integrity usually at the cost of material gain and the praise of men.
      This is the test of Love, for he see all as himself.
      Then God will shine forth as water flows from a spring.

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         Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Testing is integrity
         material is flowering
         then water will be spiritual.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Thank You Very Much, Kess. I totally overlooked your response.  "He sees all as himself. (!)
         
         How do we preserve our integrity?
         How do we recognize the devil?
         
         We need to know how to fight off the devil to preserve our integrity, I would say.
         
         Oh, here it is right here!!!
         
         "usually at the cost of material gain and the praise of men."
         
         Thanks, again!
         What a great answer you have provided!

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      EncephaloiDeadposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      But, that's exactly what keeps people ignorant. The way out of ignorance is understanding. Simple really.

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      Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Definitely, it is only a " word" God in many other languages under different name; interestingly on His first recorded " name " introduction , He has sai I AM THAT I AM, Heb. Eheyeh asher Eheyeh, I am that ( who or what ) I am , or I am the Selfexistent One; the Eternal; , the One who always has been  and always will be, ever - present and Loving One... Often He has answer in meeting people's need " I Am the one who heals you; provide for you , etc.

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         Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Again factually incorrect.
         The bible is fiction written by charlatans.

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            Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            might be for you , not for everybody

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               Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               The false claim is same for everyone,  only you pretend it to be otherwise.

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                  Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Jomine Jose, You do not know me, you do not know my victories  and failures in walk with God: He is in my  spirit , talks to me, gives me strength and wisdom , the people around me  se and know. Why should I lie to you ? Give me one reason why? And  frankly I am so busy with smart thinks that I do not have  time to lie.

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                     Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     So god is only your opinion? Why should I want to know you, I am talking about the arguments you made.
                     I am talking about this,
                     1) the Supreme being Creator and sustainer of the Universe
                     2) His first recorded " name " introduction.
                     The first is a lie, as the assumptions are false.
                     The second is a lie because bible is not the first recorded book about god.

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                        Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        A statement made by me isn't an argument to those who  choose to know ; as for you it is your option to  continue in a false assumption and in a lie you want to accept about the book about the God. Unless the Holy Spirit revels to you the light, you will continue the  direction you are on. Do not expect me to waste time to continue  in what others can tell you better  and you know that.
                        On the other hand if you insist on superiority and wants to be proclaimed as a winner in this contest, have it  your way.

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                           Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           Oh no… I am the winner, always. (ignorance and all… its temporary, anyway…)
                           KLH

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                              Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              " I AM " the winner always...

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                                 Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 As part of the I AM,  I am the i am.
                                 And i am the winner always, no matter what.
                                 (research edit) 1 Corinthians15:57.

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                           Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           So you have no factual basis for your argument. Such fallacious arguments are called lies in common language and or false assumption. I didn't make any assumptions you did. (Saying I did will be a lie)
                           
                           Again no factual basis, so can be called a lie. I know Christians in general (the preaching ones) are dishonest and some are better liars but I am not going to take a lie and face value.
                           
                           You mean you were not claiming superiority by claiming divine knowledge for yourself?

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   hack writerposted 9 years ago

   I am very reluctant to reply because I do not know the answer.
   
   I think only those shortlisted will be filled in. Not up to us to demand or search an answer before the time is right, I would think.
   
   But I do believe that there is a certain path and that being mindful of the road markers will take you there.
   
   I know for me personally, it is the practice of patience.
   
   Hope to see you there.
   
   Best of luck.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      "But I do believe that there is a certain path and that being mindful of the road markers will take you there."
      
      
      To me, this statement is beautifully poetic and true.
      
      Thank You, hack writer.
      ( ...really, what else can be said?)

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         Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Authentication is in the word you used here. " believing " ; once you start  on believing plan, the experiences are proof and multiplying ; how can anyone who never been in my kitchen, never ate my prepared meal to malevolently insists that doesn't exist ?!

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            HOW is God to be known?

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               conradofontanillaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               How is god to be known?
               First identify what is to be known. Then assert that it exists. Bertrand Russell has a way to do it. Come up with a definite description instead of a definition of a deductive kind. The main reason is that you can invent anything by way of deductive definition. A definition is one thing, existence of what is defined is another. "The king of France" is one example given by Russell as a definite description. This fits one king or another like King Louis XIV. This description can be verified. Now, existence is asserted on a definite description. Not on a name or label because analysis of a name or label would end in a contradiction, Russell said.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, we have a very good start thanks to conradofontanilla. Obviously, God can be described as an invisible force which is in evidence in all of creation. Creation identifies God.

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                     Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     If it is invisible, how is it in evidence exactly?

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        The visible is evidence of the invisible,
                        obviously.

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                           Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           Sorry - my mistake. I keep thinking yo are interested in a conversation. Reminder to self - just another religionist wanting to preach the same nonsense at me.

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                              Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              I do not disagree. We all say the same thing over and over and over… Why? Because it is the truth. Heaven is found by going within. One's consciousness is evidence of God. It has been said that our individual consciousness is a bubble in the ocean of God's consciousness. (Just something I read once, but it makes sense to me.)

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                                 Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 Fair enough. At least you are honest that you are not interested in conversation, just preaching at me, so I will bow out and leave you to preaching nonsense at people.

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                                    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                    As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is nonsense, I would say.
                                    Since, you behold this conversation as nonsense, the sooner you bow out the better.
                                    For your own sake!! !
                                    
                                    
                                    TWISI

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                                       Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       As you agreed - this is not a conversation.
                                       
                                       UYAWTAA

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                                          Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                          So?
                                          Tryin' to find stuff out... research project is more like it. I don't think its illegal. Sorry you can't hang.

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                                             Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                             Dishonest to the last.
                                             
                                             ciao

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                                                Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                You're right, I'm not sorry in the least.

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               Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               Cicero said " You do not see God, and yet you acknowledge him as God by his works." Do you Kathryn L Hill ? Everyone in the world by now knows  that " For ever  since the creation of the world God has shown to every generation His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity have been intelligible and clear  discernible in and through the things that have been made  - His handiworks. Excuses are by  some  choosing not to Honor and glorify Him as God  or give Him thanks. But instead the are becoming futile godless i their thinking- with vain imaginations, foolish reasoning and stupid speculations- where the senseless minds are  darkened . ( Book of Romans ).
               So , knowing God is simply and easy for those who are willing... As to HOW? - really HOW , my dear go to the Holy Spirit of God and ask Him He has an answer for you.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Thank You, my dear Sir.
                  
                  "For ever since the creation of the world, God has shown to every generation His invisible nature and attributes.
                  
                  That is, His eternal power and divinity have been intelligible and clear, discernible in and through the things that have been made - His handiworks.
                  
                  Naysayers do not acknowlege this.
                  
                  Not everyone in the world knows this. Saying so shows condescension.
                  
                  Sorry for existing. (You can blame God for that.)
                  
                  *---> Update to discussion/research project:
                  Consciousness is evidence of God,
                  
                  Do you not agree, MM?

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                     Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     No further comment to the " update "; I do not see meaning to be  part of stretching " knowledge ' of God after  we have abundant life in Jesus, and commandment to stay Holy as God is holy, to remain in Him and His word in us , to live to the glory of the Father " bearing much fruit " - to prove that " we" are His disciple.  ( As He is Vine and "we" are the branches, the same fruit of  his we are bearing or we would only discuss, discuss, discuss ...) ( Most of the " christians " aren't aware of what fruit of the VINE is like.) Thank you very much.

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        You do not see the benefit of increasing one's knowledge of God.
                        Okay, thanks anyway.

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                           Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           How interestingly an observation can be misleading : There is only One  who knows what " I "   "" can see"" or can not see "the benefit of increasing one's knowledge of God." My walk with God is main source of increasing  " knowledge of God" as true Holy Spirit leads me: Listening and recognizing His voice  and not  by the  following someone else's literature  recognizable contrary to the  revealed will of God; it is not for " me " only specially design, it is in the Word for every child of His and since it is working for those who believe , that is I am referring to . Knowing God, my dear comes trough  knowing  the Son of God who has come and has given us understanding so that we know  the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life."(1 John 5:20)GW Transl. While any additional theorizing taste to reasonings, this  same Jesus  left for the true believers a test proof "I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater  deeds than these, because I am going to the Father."(John 14:123) NET Bible. Time and time again this is proven fact even as we speak. For me that is more than enough for I am accountable to Him for every my thought, my word and my deed: He has extended the life-span of my in this body for a purpose.

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                              Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              But HOW?
                              
                              
                              So many words… what is beyond them?

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                                 Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 Shall your question be repeated after your comments, is suggestion ?

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                                    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                    Yes, it is fair.
                                    
                                    PS I would say the faith you reveal is beyond words.
                                    Thank You.

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                                       Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       Still working, and producing the deeds of the Kingdom the same as Jesus' of Nazareth, otherwise His mission would be a failure, which isn't .

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                                          Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                          Looks like a failure from here.

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                                             Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                             Dear RA,
                                                  Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what Success would look like?

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                                                Righteous Atheistposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                Well - 2,000 years of conflict doesn't look like a Success to me. Is that what The Plan Was? Keep breaking the commandment.

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                                 Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 Specifically, what words? To me it is so simply understandable with the Spirit of the Lord.

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                                    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                    Yes.

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                                       Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       Amen.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   Repeating:  to Know God, Identify God:
   God can be described as an invisible force which is in evidence in all of creation. Creation identifies God.
   Therefore, each one of us is evidence of God.
   It stands to reason, to know the reality of *ourselves* is to know God.
   
   What is the "reality?"
   
   Consciousness, I would say...

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      Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Shouldn't we start with what we know and see if it lines up with your description of God?

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         What do we know?
         BTW Our ability to *know* anything at all is evidence of God.
         Therefore, we are evidence of God.
         To know our own consciousness is to know God.
         Thats HOW we know God.
         
         TWISI
         Take it or leave it.
         -  just sharing what makes sense to ME.

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            Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Look, if you want to have a discussion you need to stop with the nonsense.
            
            We know plenty about the universe. We know how old it is, we know how old the earth is, we know that the information from the bible is in direct conflict with that information, which tells us that that particular versions of God, Jewish, Christian, Mormon, and Muslim version doesn't exist as described. Is there evidence for another? Does prayer to any of these versions work?
            
            Edit, because of your edit:
            If that's making sense to you you may want to learn a little about logic.

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               I requested contributions regarding the question of HOW to know God! Two people have come on board with valid input:  hack writer and conradofontanilla.
               Thats all.
               Thanks anyway.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  - also Kess and Michael-Melic: that makes four.
                  
                  I am also thankful for those with nothing to contribute. You help us, who want to know, work harder…to know.
                  I hope thats okay!?

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                     Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     With the privilege goes responsibility: my Jesus said freely you receive , freely give, on top of it He has given a commandment His disciples-followers,believers- those who accepted the invitation to become the children of the heavenly Father, and  the commandment is " Go , then, make disciple of all the nations, dipping-dipizeing - baptizing them  in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit And teaching them to observe all I have commanded you...." ; "All" means " all" a little given to me is  just obediently and reverently doing my part. ( You might be well familiar with the word of  Ezek. 3: 17-21, quite  extremely serious) . However we are reminded by the Sovereign Lord,  (humbly reporting)- " those who manifest wisdom will shine like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who turn many to righteousness will shine like the stars for ever and ever." Some of these scriptures are behind the supporting my faith to take any risk to stay isolated from the  world / religious crowd and happily serving the Master.

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        Where does "wisdom" originate? How do we tap into it?

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                           Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           Wisdom comes from reason.

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                              Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              Where does "reason" originate? How do we tap into it?

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                                 Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 Thinking without feeling in an attempt to find the truth.
                                 
                                 The power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.
                                 
                                 Think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.

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                                    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                    What is "logic" based on?

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                                       Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       Use google please.

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                                       Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       Truth is another tricky word.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   1 Corinthians 15:44
   "There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body."
   After research, the rest of 1 C (15:44-58) is amazing to me!

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   559th Thing Every One Should Know About Science: How a material responds to electrical forces depends on how its atoms are arranged. When atoms are locked together to form solids, liquids or gases, the way the electrons are arranged depends on the details of the forces between the atoms. In particular they determine whether the electrons are able to move around the material in response to external electrical forces, hence whether electrical current can move through the material.
   1001 Things Everyone Should Know About Science
   Pg.163.

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      Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Good for a laymen who only need a superficial understanding. Most of these concepts are used to teach someone who doesn't know. But this cut and past won't do you any good.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         I am copying it from the book in front of me. No "pasting" at all.
         Because science reveals the tools/processes of God,
         obviously.

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            Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            
            Just like the tail of a rat reveal the comet bundoster.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   560th: "A conductor is a material through which electrical current can flow. In order to be a conductor, a material must contain free electrical charges. There are many kinds of conductors, and they differ in the type of free charges available and in how they are created." Page 163

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      Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      You didn't understand this either, did you?
      But what is this doing in a religious forum?

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      565th: Every material is a conductor when the voltage is high enough since a high enough voltage can always tear electrons loose from atoms. For example, air is normally considered to be an insulator. However, when a large electrical current accumulates on a thunder cloud, the atoms of air in the region are torn apart, turning the air into a plasma. This is how a lightening bolt is created.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   We can get a little more complicated if you wish: For instance, Max Planck showed that a bit of matter could be represented by endless amounts of particles bobbing up and down according to frequencies of oscillation. The oscillators absorbed heat and light energy. They also allowed the energy to swing and subside.  The arcs of the oscillators swept through ever wider arcs allowing them to absorb and hold energy.  Translated from the Book:
   The Strange Story of the Quantum, by Banesh Hoffmann. (pg. 20.)

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      Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Try a dictionary first.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Been there, done that.
         
         Q. What do you call someone who converses with little greenish men who live under bridges?

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            Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Then it's difficult, ignorance will remain permanent contrary to what your OP says.
            If a dictionary could not help you understand the meaning of words nothing can. And for someone who doesn't understand the meaning of words, god is the natural answer for that term is meaningless.

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            Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Christian.

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            EncephaloiDeadposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            An Evangelist?

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   A Troll Whisperer.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   - logic and truth are based on… Reality.
   
   This is reality: ?

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      Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      There is nothing tricky about the word "truth".
      
      Logic and truth are based on thought and reason.
      
      "the good of the many out weigh the good of the few"

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         "Thought and reason" depend on logic AND emotion
         and balancing them (logic and emotion)
         is pretty tricky…
         
         - wouldn't you agree?

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            conradofontanillaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Circular reasoning should be avoided. Here, the premise supports the proposition and the proposition supports the premise. Let us take an example provided by Bo Bennett in "Circular Reasoning, Logically fallacious," (Internet Oct.25,2014):
            "The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible."

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               I see what you are saying: circular reasoning = "reason depends on logic."  My point was this: reason actually depends on love. Which I disguised with the word emotion.
               
               
               I'm wondering:
               Is logic somehow dependent on or connected in some way with love?

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                  conradofontanillaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Logic is not dependent on love. Logic is involved in tautology. For example, two is a class of couples. No emotion is involved in logic. In emotion the following can happen: A loves B. B loves C. A hates C. In logic it should be: A loves B. B loves C. A loves C.

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     "Tautology: (logic), a universal truth in formal logic." W
                     
                     I use the word love as"
                     "a virtue representing human kindness, compassion, and affection—'the unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another'. It may also describe compassionate and affectionate actions towards other humans, one's self or animal." Wikipedia
                     
                     Much of Plato and Aristotle's works had to do with virtue, or the question of what is good. For example the conclusion, justice consists in giving a man what he is owed, is found in The Republic by Plato.
                     
                     What is logic?
                     "Logic is the study of the methods and principals used to distinguish correct from incorrect reasoning." Introduction to Logic by Irving M. Copi.
                     
                     Most correct reasoning is based on love (as mentioned above,) I would assume.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    "the good of the many out weigh the good of the few"
    What is this??? define the word "weigh" here.

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    Sed-meposted 9 years ago

    Surely this has been said already...
    The way to know God is thru the reading and meditation of His word, prayer, and worship.
    
    He speaks to us thru His word and His spirit.
    We speak to Him thru prayer and worship.
    
    It is perfect communication.

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, but HOW?
       We have two avenues of knowledge. One is through words, thoughts / thinking.  The other is direct perception.
       Which would you say you use, Beth?  Or would you say the first leads to the second? 
       In what form does the "speaking" take place?
       audibly or inaudibly?
       are feelings involved?
       - how?
       If none of this is appropriate for intellectual discussion or is beyond putting into words then I understand and agree...

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          Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          It's a communication of the spirit. We are more than flesh and bone.

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             Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             And how does that communication between our souls and God's spirit take place, would you say?
             
             ... wouldn't it have to be through Extra Sensory Perception?
             as you may already know… I think this is so.

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                Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                Ps 94:11
                The LORD knows the thoughts of man, That they are a mere breath.
                
                Ps 139
                1 Lord, you have examined me
                    and know all about me.
                2 You know when I sit down and when I get up.
                    You know my thoughts before I think them.
                3 You know where I go and where I lie down.
                    You know everything I do.
                4 Lord, even before I say a word,
                    you already know it.
                5 You are all around me—in front and in back—
                    and have put your hand on me.
                6 Your knowledge is amazing to me;
                    it is more than I can understand.
                
                7 Where can I go to get away from your Spirit?
                    Where can I run from you?
                8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there.
                    If I lie down in the grave, you are there.
                9 If I rise with the sun in the east
                    and settle in the west beyond the sea,
                10 even there you would guide me.
                    With your right hand you would hold me.
                
                11 I could say, “The darkness will hide me.
                    Let the light around me turn into night.”
                12 But even the darkness is not dark to you.
                    The night is as light as the day;
                    darkness and light are the same to you.
                
                13 You made my whole being;
                    you formed me in my mother’s body.
                14 I praise you because you made me in an amazing and wonderful way.
                    What you have done is wonderful.
                    I know this very well.
                15 You saw my bones being formed
                    as I took shape in my mother’s body.
                When I was put together there,
                16 you saw my body as it was formed.
                All the days planned for me
                    were written in your book
                    before I was one day old.
                
                17 God, your thoughts are precious to me.
                    They are so many!
                18 If I could count them,
                    they would be more than all the grains of sand.
                When I wake up,
                    I am still with you.
                
                19 God, I wish you would kill the wicked!
                    Get away from me, you murderers!
                20 They say evil things about you.
                    Your enemies use your name thoughtlessly.
                21 Lord, I hate those who hate you;
                    I hate those who rise up against you.
                22 I feel only hate for them;
                    they are my enemies.
                
                23 God, examine me and know my heart;
                    test me and know my anxious thoughts.
                24 See if there is any bad thing in me.
                    Lead me on the road to everlasting life.

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                   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                   The ability to know anything by God is based on some kind of DIRECT perception! If we know anything of God it must be by the same ability.
                   Right?

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                      Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                      Did you read it?
                      It reveals everything! What thought can cross your mind that God does not know?
                      So if you raise your voice up to Him, do you think He wont hear you?
                      Whether it is the voice of your heart or your actual voice... He hears us when we call.

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                         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                         Yes.
                         - wouldn't you say direct perception must be involved in this type of spiritual communication?
                         
                         How do we develop the ability to perceive God as He perceives us?

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                            Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                            Perception might affect our understanding... but that has to do with maturity and relationship. As we grow, things get clearer, though they will not be clear as glass til we're face to face. Selah!

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                               Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                               - can you define "relationship?" and how to develop it?
                               You have already said:
                               The way to know God is thru the reading and meditation of His word, prayer, and worship.
                               what is his "word?"

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                                  Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                  Yes, but we've discussed this before.
                                  Let me ask you this... how do *you define relationship?

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                                     Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                     I think there is way to know God directly through ESP. I agree the Bible helps us focus on the reality of God. I think we can go beyond words.

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                            Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                            Throughout all Scripture we are told  that God is a real person, He can appear  visible  or invisible to natural eyes; He has a spirit body, a personal soul and a personable spirit. Jesus speaks of his Father ( (J.5:37); a psalmist of his Spirit (143:10); lives in the city (J.14:1-3) and he can do anything man can do...

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                               Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                               He can appear invisible to the naked eye? or natural eyes?
                               
                               ...he can appear invisible… HOW?
                               I once saw the shape of a cross form in the clouds…something like that?

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                                  Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                  Abraham, "the Friend of God" made a dinner  for God and two angels and the actually ate food (Gen.18) Jacob had a physical wrestling mach with God ( Gen.32: 24-30)... Moses talked to God face  to face( Ex. 33:11-23 )... much more Job 42:5; Isa. 6:1-13;  Amos 9:1 plus much more..

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                                     Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                     I know, back in the days when God appeared to men. That was a long time ago. Did God appear to Jesus?
                                     Do you believe he will appear to us? I would say yes. I would absolutely say yes. Maybe someday He will. I prefer to believe that possibilities are endless.
                                     Thanks Michael-Melic.

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                Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                How to say  this and where to start ? - "God is a spirit - or a Spirit is God- and those who worship him - communicate - must worship in spirit  and truth." ( j.4:24) . The Truth  spoken of here  has ben revealed by the incarnate Him- in the body of Jesus of Nazareth, John 14; 6 "I am the way and  the TRUTH and the life..." We " a  man -   our ' spirit man' can really touch ands commune with the Spirit of spirits.. As is known "WE" ME, YOU ,- A PERSON IS SPIRIT SOUL AND LIVES IN  THE BODY .  Our soul and spirit lives in the body temporarily: The soul is invisible part that feels it  ,is a seat of affections, emotions passions and desires giving us self-consciousness... The spirit is invisible part of a living beings that knows - the seat of intellect, mind and will, and that  giving  self - determination thus making  a free moral agent  a rational being. NOW, the Bible teaches  that  it is a " regenerated " spirit of a person with God's Spirit within us which can and does communicate with God. The natural man -  spiritually dead to the Spirit of God due to the  distrusting God back in the Garden can- not communicate with God the Father, because doesn't belong yet to Him.

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                   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                   How do we give ourselves to God?   And what is the motivation?
                   Is it through baptism?
                   What is the usual motivation for getting baptized?
                   Blind obedience?
                   Fear?
                   Willful obedience?
                   Love of God?
                   Other?

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                      wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                      Luke 1:50

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                         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                         Fear is rewarded with God's mercy.
                         Well, thats sounds good… is it good enough?
                         Eventually fear gives way to confidence.. and the whole cycle of ignorance and arrogance starts over again. lol!

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                            wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                            You left out the part about multiple generations, but close enough.  Be afraid of Him and he will show mercy.  Love Him without fear (however that is managed with a god known for genocide!) and it's no mercy for you.
                            
                            Not a creature I would choose to worship...

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                               Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                               No, I disagree.   
                               Consider that perfect love contains no fear… which is higher and more appreciated?

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                                  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                  Then you will lose God's mercy.  So speaks Luke, anyway - that I agree that love does not contain fear means nothing set beside scripture.

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                      Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                      In faith, by faith , through faith : "Without faith it is impossible to please him..."(Heb .11:6) as the broken true  and disbelief of the Creeator  has kicked us out of the Family fellowship in the Garden, now the faith, trust will put us back... Every sinner  need to come as he / she is  ( God already knows our intentions) - and speak to him as person-to person " Here i am... coming back...) Sincerely, earnestly to  say what " I want "... What do you want ? ( Jesus said if anyone  WANTS tot come after me let him denied himself. How much what part to denied? Everything what is not of His will and His word.
                      Motivation is LOVE- not feelings or emotions, not religious  ceremonies, " I love yo and I want to serve you in all my words, deeds ...
                      Fear is not of the God Father, it comes from the god of thuds world and he is shrewd enough to control masses by the religious manipulations...
                      Baptism would not be my preference to put into this discussion...

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    Somehow related question:
    
    What is the root of "faith?"
    
    Willful obedience, blind faith, or wisdom guided faith? or maybe wishful thinking? hopeful thinking? willful thinking?
    or maybe understanding based on logic ? on love ? … or both?

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       Michael-Milecposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       My own definition: " Faith is putting your life into hands of God ".  "Faith changes  the word into deed in your life."  " Faith hears what God has to say ."
       The way to get faith is by hearing the Word of God: READ OUT LOUD for yourself  what God /Jesus says,- often you will hear what was there before and now it opens to you: you might stop after  the firs sentence and go to pondering on it all day long until it becomes part of your actions as a result knowing it and expressing love toward God ...

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Like.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    Logic deals with arguments.  Arguments are groups of propositions revealing grounds for truth. Premise and conclusion are used as propositions in arguments. A conclusion is indicated by words such as: "therefore,"  "thus,"  "consequently…" Premises are indicated by "since,"  "because," " for the reason that…"
    According to Irving M. Copi.
    
    To refresh, we are trying to find what wisdom is dependent on… Rad Man says on logic and thinking. I say on a sense of love or what is good for self and others.

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       conradofontanillaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Copi must have meant to give an introduction only. Premise is different from proposition depending on context. This topic involves a long discussion.

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          I am trying to find out about wisdom. My premise is that it is based on more than reason alone.
          I do not know how to find a conclusion or what argument to make to prove what I merely suspect. I thought Michael-Melic would help me out, since it based on something he said:
          
          " those who manifest wisdom will shine like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who turn many to righteousness will shine like the stars for ever and ever."
          
          i just want to know HOW anyone can "manifest wisdom!" I don't think through reason alone!

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             conradofontanillaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             I suggest you define "wisdom" as a concept not as a label or a word. In concept, a term is different from a word. You can find a definition of term, or how "term" is used in introduction to philosophy.

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                Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                I think wisdom is an inner knowing of the truth. It comes from the soul. I think it is the ability to discern illusion from reality, which by the way is objective and not subjective.

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    Sed-meposted 9 years ago

    This is an interview with Gracia Burnham. She was taken captive in the Philippians. She and her husband were held hostage for a year. They killed her husband and she has been returned home. Listen to her story of being ministered to by God.
    
    https://soundcloud.com/the-voice-of-the … ia-burnham

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks Beth. I will. (Its been nice conversing with you without the usual uninvited sentinels.)

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          Sed-meposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          For sure.
          
          Off to work... ugh.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    And what happened back in the garden ?

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