How Do You Conclude that There is No 'Light-switch' Inside a Dark Room

Jump to Last Post 1-6 of 6 discussions (65 posts)

59
God shetposted 9 years ago

Almost every atheist has the awareness of a (very interesting) silver-bullet. Whenever anyone says: I know God exists ~ they jump up from their seat and proclaim this, with a domineering pose: "What is your evidence?" If you answer: "I have no evidence to prove that God exists", then you are certain to get back this answer: "Nothing exists that you can not provide any evidence for".

Now here is the thing: Most atheists are actually 'unwilling' to discover God: it is possible to discover the existence of God within one's lifetime. But that requires study, discipline, meditation, and an unbiased mind that is willing to accept that the existence of God is a valid possibility. But deep in the hearts of atheists lies a secret hatred for God. They can't even tolerate the idea that God might indeed be a possibility.

They are led to stand before the doorstep of a dark room ~ and encouraged to discover if there is any light-switch ('God') inside it. The only way to find out ~ is to enter the light-less room, and physically search for the switch on the wall (using one's arms).

But instead of doing that: most atheists proclaim this from the doorstep, with a domineering pose: "We are convinced, there is no light-switch inside that dark room!".
reply report
1. 71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What were the atheists thinking, god indeed exists.
  Here he is in all his glory, the one and only Quetzalcoatl.
  
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  This is the problem ~ that atheists tend to form conclusions ~ before (unbiasedly) investigating a subject.
  reply report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  This is the problem ~ that theists tend to form conclusions ~ before (unbiasedly) investigating a subject.
  Most theists proclaim this from the doorstep, with a domineering pose: "We are convinced, there is no light-switch inside that dark room if the switch is not to our liking!"
  Most theists are actually 'unwilling' to discover Quetzalcoatl: it is possible to discover the existence of Quetzalcoatl within one's lifetime. But that requires study, discipline, meditation, and an unbiased mind that is willing to accept that the existence of Quetzalcoatl is a valid possibility.
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  If you mean the 'God of religion' ~ when you say 'Quetzalcoatl': you are making some sense. But at the same time, I must say that it's a fact that we might discover bigger, and more powerful Quetzalcoatls', if we turn on the television.
  
  (The original argument stays.)
  reply report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Can't even tolerate the idea that Quetzalcoatl might indeed be a possibility?
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I don't need to 'tolerate' that idea.
  reply report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  But the atheist should "tolerate" and even embrace the concept of your god? How does that work?
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That's the point. Atheists take that pressure unnecessarily.
  reply report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Only unwilling to discover Quetzalcoatl?
  reply report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jomine has a point; the common reaction of the theist is to leave the door closed and proclaim that the switch inside (known to be there because all rooms have a switch) is the older toggle style and not the newer (and better) decora style. No research or testing necessary - both that the switch is there AND that it is the toggle style is somehow known without ever looking. They even somehow know that it is cream colored and not white, brown, red or black, even though all are common colors for light switches.
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You repeatedly mix religion with spirituality.
  reply report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You're the one that started the thread with the analogy of a light switch and a god, not I.
  
  Nevertheless, the belief in a god and spirituality are identical in this case - that both are belief without knowledge, just as the type, placement and even existence of the light switch is without ever looking.
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "Nevertheless, the belief in a god and spirituality are identical in this case - that both are belief without knowledge"
  
  ~ To you. Not for everyone.
  reply report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Then show it. Put our hands on the switch.
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That type of conversation (and 'demonstration') isn't possible over the internet. I'm serious about it. I might get into it anytime within the next few years. Something like this is long overdue.
  reply report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand why it isn't possible. Unless the "demonstration" is little more than evoking an emotional response that ends with I believe! without ever even opening the door, let alone touching the switch or seeing what it does.
  
  And, of course, the atheists put considerable effort into avoiding just such demonstrations as they really produce nothing but belief instead of knowledge. Knowing that we are all susceptible to emotional reactions, and that such reactions do not produce knowledge, it is best to avoid them.
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You have some interesting preconceived notions about the demonstration.
  report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Probably because I've been subjected to so many of them and that's what they all end up being.
  report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That is fairly understandable to you.
  report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Not sure what you mean.
  
  But what about you? You've obviously become a believer - what made it happen? An emotional response devoid of reason or did you find and test evidence for truth? Ignorance ("I don't know so it must be a god")? Did you experience a miracle that violated natural laws, one that you investigated thoroughly and are positive violated those laws? Did someone else convince you or did you research and find it all alone?
  report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "You've obviously become a believer"
  
  ~ You are fairly mistaken this time.
  report
2. 94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  If you find the light switch, you can take your friend, hold them by the hand and put their hand on the switch. Now they found the switch, too.
  
  But if you can't find the switch in spite of knowing exactly where it should be, the only conclusion is either that it isn't there or isn't what you think of as a light switch. It could be a sensor built into the ceiling, it could be a pressure mat on the floor, it could be a fuse in the fuse box. If you can find the fuse box with a burned out fuse (dead god) you can replace it (the analogy breaks down a little here ( ). It is even possible that there is no light at all in the room even though you don't understand why there would be a room with no light. But there is nothing in the room you would have classified as a "light switch" as you have carefully swept the entire wall area with your hands.
  
  Back to the god (light switch). If you can find the god you can show it to others. If the god is the sensor in the ceiling you can show others what it does by entering the room with them repeatedly and observing the effect of your action. If a pressure mat you can do the same. You can replace the light bulb and/or check voltage in the socket to verify the light fixture works and has power. You could even trace wires to find out where they go, learning how the electrical system works and why. There lots of things you can do to figure out what is going on.
  
  What you cannot (reasonably) do is declare that because there is a light bulb in the ceiling that there has to be a light switch somewhere. You haven't a clue how or why the room came to be, but your extremely limited knowledge of lights is that all the ones you know of require a switch and that is insufficient to declare there has to be a switch. You don't understand the details of an electrical system, don't know how or why anything works and thus cannot deduce that this specific room must have a switch.
  
  But that is exactly what a believer typically does. They don't understand how or why the universe behaves the way it does but nevertheless conclude there is a god doing it. They don't test the actions attributed to that god to verify that the events they see are caused by a god. They cannot sense the god with any of the 5 senses, only a "feeling" that it is there, but don't test that "feeling" for veracity either.
  
  Bottom line: if you don't know if there is a light switch, and strongly wish to know you will tear the room apart piece by piece until you know if there is a switch. You will study electrical systems until you know what might be a switch and what is not. You will not look into the dark and decide there is a switch, what that switch looks like or what/how it works but instead make conclusions based on all the knowledge you can gather. And you don't read a treatise written thousands of years ago on what lightning is and decide that you know all about electricity.
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "If you find the light switch, you can take your friend, hold them by the hand and put their hand on the switch. Now they found the switch, too."
  
  ~ I know many atheists who are unwilling to let anyone guide them to the 'light-switch'.
  reply report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  And yet...the vast majority of atheists have been guided. With an unsupported statement that "God exists and made you". They never have their hand put on the switch, they never even get to see the light turned on by a god; just an unknown force with never an indication it was done by a god.
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What you have stated ~ is partially true.
  reply report
3. 0
  Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I've spend my youth in that room, so I studied it and sound the switch to be an illusion. You see you need to walk across the room to get to the switch, but to do so you need to step on the pressure sensitive switch on the floor under the light switch. It's simply an illusion.
  reply report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I think I make better gods than you do - I put a motion sensor in the ceiling. No need to even enter; just open the door and the light comes on. If you enter and go to sleep, the light goes off to save energy.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Great Idea. It would take an electrician to come up with and install that. It's perfect because when others enter that think it's magic.
  reply report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Magic. Does that make me a god? I've been told I'm very spiritual (although I can't imagine why) and that we're either ALL gods or at least have god within us.
  
  Never put one of those in my house (too much trouble), but have replaced the laundry room switch with an occupancy sensor because the light never got turned off. And rigged up a timer to close the garage door after 10 minutes because the kids would never close it. That one worked great until we left one day with something in the path of the door - it closed, hit the obstruction and reopened only to repeat 10 minutes later all day long. Made the neighbors a little nervous.
  reply report
4. 82
  Don Wposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Strawman. Many atheists are not saying "Nothing exists that you can not provide any evidence for"
  
  They are actually saying "It is not reasonable to believe in, live your life by, and try to convince others of, something that you can not provide any evidence for".
  reply report
  68
  biblicalivingposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  This is a very strong point. Perhaps Religion must be taken on Faith and the perception of the "light switch" removed. It is a mistake to think that logical tricks, emotional responses and ancient texts prove anything. The universe as well as the human experience is vast and rather indifferent to individual nuances.
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  'They are actually saying "It is not reasonable to believe in, live your life by, and try to convince others of, something that you can not provide any evidence for".'
  
  The point is what type of evidence are you talking about? Do we need to provide evidence to others to satisfy ourselves that 'something' exists? And ~ most importantly ~ are every type of evidence communicable to others?
  
  We all face situations in life where we may know something to be perfectly true, that something exists - but, we may not 'prove' it to others. There are innumerable instances where we face this type of situations.
  
  Things like love, hatred, 'may' not be shown and proved to others who are not related to the connecting environments (i.e., they never met the persons involved in the love and hate relationships, before. But, that love and that hatred nevertheless exists, and are known to the persons involved. You can't prove to others things and events that came across or happened to you, and while you were the only witness. But you have the knowledge of those things and events. You may not prove to a child if a cunning adult is cheating and fooling him/her. But you might have the full knowledge of it. The list goes on.
  reply report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So your god is like love. Quetzalcoatl is not anybody's imagination. He indeed exists.
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  including the 'thing' that loves
  reply report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So humans are god?
  reply report
  77
  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  - yes. Humans are gods because they are part of God. Jesus said, Know ye not that ye are gods?
  Furthermore, The image we are is the invisible aspect of God…Spirit.
  Love is an aspect of Spirit.
  ...according to credible sources which make sense to me.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  All mammals love, what's your point? If they didn't they wouldn't protect their babies.
  reply report
  77
  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  And love of the mother comes from nature and nature comes from mother nature and mother nature comes from father God, creator of all on an invisible level which slows down on the visible level.
  But don't focus on these words. It is beyond human intellect.
  
  Reality can be perceived with one's third eye of intuition.
  
  If you wish to argue with me I will restate it until I am blue in the face... because to me, this is the truth. In my mind there is no doubt about it.
  
  Of course, you are free to disagree, but I will never buy your argument, Rad man.
  
  Just To Let You Know.
  reply report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Reality can be perceived with ones senses but still it is only a perception. Reality is defined.
  reply report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So your arm is you?
  We belong to which part of god, which are the other parts?
  god originated after as?
  
  Invisible and image won't go together, we are not transparent either. Spirit is also a concept.
  
  What source?
  reply report
  77
  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Spirit is invisible. It is visible as it manifests in the body which it incarnated into, in each of us.
  
  We are the image of God... which by nature is invisible... as we are invisible, except that we, as individual portions of Spirit, are "wearing" bodies.
  
  Obviously.
  reply report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Which are those manifestations?
  
  So how do you know what we look like, if we are invisible?
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You need to find a cat lover
  reply report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Oh god is cat I thought it was dog.
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  you are beautiful
  report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Quetzalcoatl is.
  report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  and your beauty is comparable to?
  report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The Jesus the Christ.
  report
  77
  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  - nothing wrong with this answer.
  report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Except that the question was edited after it was answered and hence the answer to was changed.
  report
  77
  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  ...and what is dog spelled backwards?
  report
  77
  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  We are what we appear to be to each other, but underneath we are invisible.
  Thoughts are invisible.
  Consciousness is is invisible.
  Awareness is invisible.
  Electromagnetic energy is invisible.
  Love is invisible.
  
  For instance, all emotions are invisible in the beginning, but then they become actions and reveal themselves.
  reply report
  71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting answers but got nothing to do with the questions asked.
  reply report
77
Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago
Q. Who is the happiest in a dark room?

A. The atheist who is content to sit there in the dark.
B. The the theist who searches the walls in the dark for the light switch?
C. The human secularist while praising his own and other's ability to sit patiently in the dark.
D. The agnostic who will also sits patiently in the dark, but secretly cheers on the theist who is doing all the hard work by feeling over every inch of wall for that damn light switch.

My answer:

B.
reply report
1. 94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You left one out:
  
  E. The person, atheist, agnostic or theist, who learns how to make light and does so in the room.
  
  My money is on E; they've not only got the light they want but can do it again and again as necessary.
  reply report
  77
  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Brilliant! and I'm sure the original poster would agree.
  Peace
  We all choose E !
  reply report
  94
  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  reply report
  59
  God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "E. The person, atheist, agnostic or theist, who learns how to make light and does so in the room."
  
  ~ Good luck conducting any experiment inside the lightless room.
  reply report
2. 0
  Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, he may in fact be happier for a while. He thinks he's immortal. Ignorance is bliss.
  reply report
84
psycheskinnerposted 9 years ago
You do in fact have to "tolerate" people who see the world differently be they atheist, Satanist, Jedi or gnome worshippers. Because if there is a God who gets to tell people what to do and what to believe, one thing is certain, it isn't you. And whoever that God that might exist might be, they seem to support in free will a lot more than you do given the world of diversity they seem to have created. Even if we are wrong we have the right to be wrong and you have the duty to bother tolerate and respect that.
reply report
84
DzyMsLizzyposted 9 years ago
"But deep in the hearts of atheists lies a secret hatred for God. They can't even tolerate the idea that God might indeed be a possibility."

The very core of that argument is flawed. One cannot hate something in which one does not believe. It is simply a non-issue. Nor are atheists "satan worshippers," since, in the Christian tradition, satan is a 'fallen angel,' or, if you will "the dark side" of any god; they are two sides of the same coin. You will probably find that most atheists do not believe in any devil, either.

It is not a matter of "refusing to believe," or refusing to be educated, or to search. Indeed, the opposite is often true. Many atheists were former believers, some of them quite devout. Their own education, research, and life experiences are what led them to the position of disbelief.

And as psycheskinner pointed out, it is only our individual "job" and place to believe what we want, or to not believe; it is not our "job" to try and convince or force others into our own belief system.
We can certainly share our views, if asked,, but otherwise, simply "agree to disagree" and get on with our own lives, as no one elses' choices, (so long as they are inflicting harm on no one), are any of our business.
reply report
84
psycheskinnerposted 9 years ago
My third eye tells me to honor other people's truths because we are brothers and sisters of equal ethical worth.
reply report
77
Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago
When we are on the astral plane we are invisible. We incarnate into the body at the moment of conception. When the desire is strong enough, we perceive a spark of light which occurs when the ovum and sperm unite. Souls fight to enter the union and the one with the strongest intention makes it. Once inside the new beginning of a human body, the invisible soul directs its development according to the blue print of light which the soul carries with it from lifetime to lifetime. Complete incarnation takes nine months and six years. I have heard our faces do not change much from lifetime to life time.
We do not remember our previous lifetimes, but tendencies will predominate and explains early genius in children, such as Mozart.

Isn't that interesting?
reply report
1. 71
  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So what happens to identical twins and conjoined twins? Do they got only one soul?
  Vanishing twins?
  Isn't that interesting?
  reply report

Post a Reply

jump to first post

Necessary
HubPages Device ID	This is used to identify particular browsers or devices when the access the service, and is used for security reasons.
Login	This is necessary to sign in to the HubPages Service.
Google Recaptcha	This is used to prevent bots and spam. (Privacy Policy)
Akismet	This is used to detect comment spam. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Google Analytics	This is used to provide data on traffic to our website, all personally identifyable data is anonymized. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Traffic Pixel	This is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized.
Amazon Web Services	This is a cloud services platform that we used to host our service. (Privacy Policy)
Cloudflare	This is a cloud CDN service that we use to efficiently deliver files required for our service to operate such as javascript, cascading style sheets, images, and videos. (Privacy Policy)
Google Hosted Libraries	Javascript software libraries such as jQuery are loaded at endpoints on the googleapis.com or gstatic.com domains, for performance and efficiency reasons. (Privacy Policy)

Features
Google Custom Search	This is feature allows you to search the site. (Privacy Policy)
Google Maps	Some articles have Google Maps embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Google Charts	This is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy)
Google AdSense Host API	This service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Google YouTube	Some articles have YouTube videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Vimeo	Some articles have Vimeo videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Paypal	This is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook Login	You can use this to streamline signing up for, or signing in to your Hubpages account. No data is shared with Facebook unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Maven	This supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy)

Marketing
Google AdSense	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Google DoubleClick	Google provides ad serving technology and runs an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Index Exchange	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Sovrn	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook Ads	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Unified Ad Marketplace	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
AppNexus	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Openx	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Rubicon Project	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
TripleLift	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Say Media	We partner with Say Media to deliver ad campaigns on our sites. (Privacy Policy)
Remarketing Pixels	We may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.
Conversion Tracking Pixels	We may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.

Statistics
Author Google Analytics	This is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy)
Comscore	ComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Tracking Pixel	Some articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy)
Clicksco	This is a data management platform studying reader behavior (Privacy Policy)

How Do You Conclude that There is No 'Light-switch' Inside a Dark Room

Arts and Design

Autos

Books, Literature, and Writing

Business and Employment

Education and Science

Entertainment and Media

Family and Parenting

Fashion and Beauty

Food and Cooking

Games, Toys, and Hobbies

Gender and Relationships

Health

Holidays and Celebrations

Home and Garden

HubPages Tutorials and Community

Personal Finance

Pets and Animals

Politics and Social Issues

Religion and Philosophy

Sports and Recreation

Technology

Travel and Places

About Us

This website uses cookies

How Do You Conclude that There is No 'Light-switch' Inside a Dark Room

Related Discussions

This website uses cookies