Can the power of God be considered magic?

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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
Nope!
Whilst searching my mind frantically for the right piece to publish, I am a fly on a lot of walls here.
When the idea of God being responsible for magic came up, I thought it'd be a good time to jump in.
When I came to post, I realized I've been missing out. Gotta adjust my filter, I guess.
However, the power of God is true/truth.
Magic is a lie; a slick deception; slight of hand; the complete opposite of truth.
Summary: The power of God/true force. Magic/tricks...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No magic. God obviously just uses his innate poofing ability. It's very scientific, and follows a logical, self-consistent set of rules.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  He made the poofing rules popular. The world must take it to another level.
  Poofing is everywhere! Have you watched the Disney channel or Nickelodeon lately??? Darn near EVERY show has a "fake" poofer. So muchwwitchcraft being pumped into our LITTLE babies' brains with a cute little ditty to boot.
  No God... just poofing all over the place! I feel sad for our next-generation.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Luckily, I don't watch TV.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Smart... Don't start.
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Michael-Milecposted 9 years ago
Not at all. The creator of the universe has unlimited power of His word clear and meaningful .
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Super poofing word power?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Super duper!!!
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  This is the truth.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  His word is magic.
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janesixposted 9 years ago
I say the Power Puff girls puffed everything into existence. It is self-evident.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I think my daughter could possibly agree with you for a few moments.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago
"The power of God/true force."
How does this power manifest as far as you can determine, Cgenaea?
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
Well, I believe the power manifests in many ways. My every breath is attributable to an awesome power that I cannot understand. Automated for more than forty years; as much beating as my body has taken??? No batteries anywhere? Simply blows my mind. It's unequivocally God, to me. And that's just one... I could go on, and on, and on, etc., etc.
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1. 59
  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I see you only answer the easy questions
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
Did I miss something?
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I asked you if you would obey God if he told you to do something you thought was immoral.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
Oh, I did miss something. But we've had this conversation before. And I'm positive you will have a problem with the completeness of my answer and/or your inability to "corner" the Lord once I completely answer your question for the umpteenth time, but I'll try another time. (This aint biblical mountain slaying days no more. ) Lord did away with that stuff in the bible days. He wrote it down so we don't look like fools following the wrong junk. When he comes to question, I believe he'll play the very utterance of our denial right into our ears. We'll know that he heard our heart.
If the Lord told me to do something that was immoral in MY eyes... I'd always run the other way.
That is NOT my father's voice. He don't do that stuff no more. A person who claims the Lord made them harm an individual, is a liar. Plain and simple. People prefer the lie. But he lets us govern our own selves if we wont to...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, maybe I did ask you before. But I have my reasons, I don't ask people these things for fun.
  
  Thank you for answering.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
No problem. I like conversation.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Good. Because I'm having a rough night. Lot's of 11:11. Ideas of reference. Things have too much meaning that isn't there.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
I see...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry. It happens. I just take more meds.
  
  I always seem to get religious though, that's how I know.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Just flew right over my head again... I have no idea what you're getting religious about, what made it happen, or why it calls for meds... but hey! That's your business.
  Any more questions, I'm here.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Well, if God talks to me, I have to assume I'm going psychotic. Because God doesn't talk to people, right?
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
He does. But others do too. You must try the spirit to see if it is of God. God's voice is evident in scripture.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So what do I do? Just open to a random page and see what it says?
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
Heck no! please don't EVER do that. Jesus is the perfect representation of God. Learn of him... once you get to understand who he was/is, it is much easier to KNOW his voice.

I'm a music buff. And i am totally enamored by the lyrics of Stevie Wonder. I feel that not many, reach his level of beautifully stringing unusual words and practically using metaphor. I KNOW he did not write. 50 cent's In Da Club... just NOT Stevie's voice.
Wanna hear God... listen to Jesus.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago
I agree, Cgenaea. On a certain level, you just open your mind, heart and soul by being open to the greater reality that exists beyond the senses.
Its called tuning inward to heaven within. The kingdom of God is within. It's what we are. Jesus is there too. And all the saints of all religions. We are all one in essence, after-all.
TWISI
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I try to see it like the bible sees it. Inside of the flesh of man, there's filth. It is God, asked/invited in, that makes the difference. The acknowledgement that Jesus is the only way to the father. Many of us, don't believe that. Our story sounds better... Listen, "We are all God's children. " sounds a bit sweeter than the truth that many more of us are not...
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Our outlooks are 180...
  and that is okay.
  We do agree that God is reality, not magical in the way of trickery.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
I'm glad we agree somewhere. It makes for harmony as we converse. But 180 seems well ever say different things.
I believe the bible, how else can I come to know Jesus? If we believe that part, and do not believe the rest, we could be accused of cherry-picking. Or even worse, lukewarm. So, I am not "okay" with scriptural err.
If you ever see that I am scripturally astray, please let me know.
Jesus was a man with emotions. He got angry when his own house molested the scriptural instructions.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "molested" is a pretty grim word. Not really appropriate in my opinion. Whose scriptural instructions were being ignored? What were they?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "And all the saints of all religions. We are all one in essence, after-all."
  
  "No man shall come unto the father, but by me." -Jesus
  
  Does sound 180. Not all religions call upon the name of Jesus as the savior.
  I hate that molest is inappropriate. Maybe twist is less offensive?
  I don't mean to offend. The scripture is too important to not get right.
  TWISI... life or death.
  Jesus said one thing... I'd rather not be caught saying different. He sent a whole spirit to remind us of what he said. He said with his mouth that not all are his. We cannot say they are.
  Respectfully and with the best intentions, I give TWISI. What Jesus said, trumps everyone else. He knows the whole picture and we only see through a glass darkly. We don't know why he said follow me. But we do know that there's only room enough for one spirit in heaven.
  So, all who call on (which forces belief and total trust/faith in, then forcing total backing of what he said) Jesus, will be...
  His people say what he said.
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What is the most important message you would like to impart to us as far as "reality" ?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Good question. May take quite a bit of thought.
  I'll get back to you.
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Lucid Psycheposted 9 years ago
Magic, within the context of this discussion, could be said to consist of the universe beginning to exist for no reason, without a cause, and from nothing. This is the position atheists have had to take since cosmic background radiation from "the Big Bang" proved that the universe BEGAN to exist. Atheists strongly advocated for an eternal universe (and some still do!) because they understood that if the universe began it had to have a sufficient cause. That cause being greater than the universe itself can reasonably defined as God ... a cause must always be greater that the effect it produces.
Magic, to my thinking would be if the universe began to exist without a cause.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Must be a ton of "cognitive dissonance" by now, for they who prefer magic.
  Give me God's power instead, any day...
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed, well said.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "a cause must always be greater that the effect it produces."
  
  Uh huh. And a few atoms being banged together is "greater" than the rearrangement of the entire city (and countryside) of Hiroshima.
  
  Or watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_feWtkSucvE where a 14" drill bit caused actions beyond belief, and the Atlantic ocean flowed uphill for two days while 11 barges, loaded with tractor trailers, disappeared down the drill hole. (worth a watch just for entertainment - it's pretty neat).
  
  In fact of matter, causes are generally less than the results.
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I think you might need to review some fundamentals. You can be certain that a cause is always of a higher order of energy and information than the effect it produces.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So? Did you watch the video? And sorry, but a few small chemical explosions are NOT in the same category as a nuke going off. Unless you want to define the cause as Pearl Harbor rather than the setting charges used?
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  If the Principle of Causality is invalidated then philosophy and science, both of which necessarily are based on cause and effect are invalidated. There would be no rational method by which to assess the nature of reality or existence. The Law of Cause and Effect states that every material effect must have an adequate antecedent or simultaneous cause. You still need to work on your fundamentals if you think that an effect can be greater than it's own cause.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The jury is still out on what was there before the big bang. There isn't enough evidence to decide what was going on. That's why there are multiple theories.
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The jury (established science) has returned with a verdict that the universe began to exist and thus was caused. Since no natural realm (time, space, matter) existed we know that the cause was space less, timeless, and immaterial and sufficient to the existence of the universe. Those theories you mention are speculative and in no way detract from what is known from established science and correctly applied logic. In fact in the case of multiple universes the need for an even greater cause is brought to the fore. Indeed, I believe that we probably exist in a multiverse (speculation) and if such is the case my awe of it's creator / cause is magnified even more.
  If atheists advocate for logic and science it should not be unreasonable to expect them to abide by discovery made under the auspices of naturalistic investigation. To my thinking this demonstrates that for committed atheists ideology comes first.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "The jury (established science) has returned with a verdict that the universe began to exist and thus was caused"
  
  No it hasn't. There are other theories that are just as valid, with evidence to back them up.
  
  http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/sir- … -big-bang/
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Tossed to and fro by every new development? Or, standing firmly on a solid foundation??? I'll take B please... and they soon must follow.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  And when your belief has evidence to prove it's false? Then what do you do?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I haven't thought about that. Faith believes without seeing. I honestly don't feel like there IS an alternative.
  Make no mistake about it... they've come up with plenty of evidence to prove my belief false... but I don't believe it.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That's ok. Everyone has beliefs. Even if they don't admit it.
  
  Scientists defend their beliefs tooth and nail. Why do you think progress is always so slow?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ask the chicken with no head; better yet, a rat on his wheel... it's hard to get somewhere when you ditch the map and just start walking. Takes much longer...
  The bible makes some serious scientific statements during a time when the world was thought to be stationary and flat... I'm downright impressed.
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "No it hasn't. There are other theories that are just as valid, with evidence to back them up ..."
  
  I'm talking about established fact versus speculation. The "Big Bang" is an established scientific fact. The multiverse hypothesis doesn't rise to the scientific criteria of being a theory ... and for practical reasons for the purposes of this discussion it doesn't matter anyway.
  If you introduce an infinity of time in a physical system(s) you have to deal with entropy. Total entropy would have already been reached with an infinite past even if you posit a multiverse that spawns universes. An ultimate physical beginning is still a logical necessity.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The Big Bang is not an established fact.
  
  And I mentioned nothing about multiverses.
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "The Big Bang is not an established fact."
  Yes, the Big Bang IS established science.
  
  "And I mentioned nothing about multiverses."
  Multiverses usually come up in this type of conversation. Atheists being the undying ideologues they are, are desperate to escape the facts and being familiar with their ploys caused me to anticipate. Apologies.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  http://phys.org/news/2015-03-universe-b … scale.html
  
  The Big Crunch is a plausible scientific theory. Which is more evidence towards a collapsing-expanding-collapsing universe.
  
  The thing is, even the Big Bang is only a theory. Not an established "fact" as you are insisting. We have more than one theory, based on the same set of facts. The more facts we get (and we're getting more all the time) the easier it will be to narrow down what actually is going on, and what happened 14 billion years ago. As of yet, we can only see 300,000 years after the event. So there is plenty of speculation on every side as to what happened then.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The big bang is only a theory, it can't be proved. We will all know the truth eventually.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "To my thinking this demonstrates that for committed atheists ideology comes first"
  
  For some, yes.
  
  Just like for some (if not most) theists, ideology comes first.
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "For some, yes.
  
  Just like for some (if not most) theists, ideology comes first"
  
  True. That's why I base my beliefs on science and correctly applied logic.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like magic to ME
  On the other hand, I KNOW what caused MY bang.
  Lol..
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Only if you think the universe came from "nothing", which I don't believe is the case.
  
  As long as there IS a scientific theory that there was something before the big bang (like Penrose' rebounding universe theory), then I can safely believe it is more likely to be true.
  
  Even those who believe that there was one beginning, like Krauss, he still doesn't think there was absolutely nothing before.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Who's report will you believe next??? They're getting more and more convincing these days. I bet the best theory yet, will come from a man still in his father's drawers.
  We're getting "wiser" and "WISER" ya know...
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "We're getting "wiser" and "WISER" ya know..."
  
  According to an article I read recently, atheism is on the decrease worldwide. Perhaps we are getting wiser and wiser overall. Nice thought.
  Great thread btw.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks!
  We grow in knowledge. But knowledge of what??? A lie, no matter HOW intricate and well-proven, is still a lie.
  I really believe what the bible says.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What lie?
  
  Please don't tell me you think scientifically proven facts are lies. I would like to specifically which ones you are talking about. Please please please tell me I'm just making a silly assumption about what you believe.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There is not enough evidence of God is a straight-up lie. As we've seen here, Science unfounded, is still given some weight. Have you noticed? They say, "Well, we haven't worked out all the kinks on evolution, but that is the BEST thing we've got, next to sliced bread..." I say, God has not given us all his secrets. (That's biblical too) and I STILL believe he out-trumps sliced bread.
  Oh to be kept by Him... amazing stuff!
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There is some evidence of God, I would say. Such as the fine-tuning of the universe. So much so that scientists come up with un-provable things like the "multiverse" to explain the uncomfortable evidence away.
  
  The weirdness of the universe is difficult to ignore, although people ignore it all the time.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That evidence of God is all I need. But I already have faith in it. Any ol proof'll do
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Again. If you introduce an infinity of time in a physical system(s) you have to deal with entropy. Total entropy would have already been reached with an infinite past even if you posit a multiverse that spawns universes. An ultimate physical beginning is still a logical necessity.
  
  "Even those who believe that there was one beginning, like Krauss, he still doesn't think there was absolutely nothing before."
  
  There obviously had to be a cause (not nothing). Krauss just can't accept the obvious conclusion of the nature of that cause on purely ideological grounds.
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  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's always so easy to make such statements as there had to be a beginning when the statement is supported by nothing but opinion. If, for instance, the recurring Big Bang theory is correct, an infinity of time is a definite possibility and entropy is "reset" every time the BB occurs.
  
  The result is that is what is "obvious" to one is not obvious at all to another, and evidence beyond merely saying it is obvious is badly needed to support such statements.
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "It's always so easy to make such statements as there had to be a beginning when the statement is supported by nothing but opinion. If, for instance, the recurring Big Bang theory is correct, an infinity of time is a definite possibility and entropy is "reset" every time the BB occurs."
  
  What makes it easy for me to say that there was a beginning is that it is established science. Argue with established science if you like but there are 5 lines of evidence you might want to consider.
  The Second Law of Thermodynamics. The universe cannot be eternal because if it were we would have reached complete entropy by now.
  The universe is expanding from the initial explosion of the Big Bang.
  Cosmic background radiation detected by Penzias and Wilson.
  Galaxy seeds ... ripples that show that the "explosion" of the universe was precisely tweaked to cause just enough matter to congregate to allow galaxy formation, but not enough to cause the universe to collapse back on itself.
  GTR demands an absolute beginning for time, space and matter.
  
  As for the cosmic rebound hypothesis in case you haven't heard it's fallen out of favor as far as actual science is concerned. To begin with there's no evidence to support the possibility of an infinite number of Big Bangs. Also there's not enough matter in the universe to pull everything back together to start the cycle over. Also contradicts the Second Law of Theremodynamics in that it falsely assumes that no energy would be lost in each contraction and explosion. That's probably what you were trying for when you glibly said that "entropy is reset". Blue sky speculation and bad science.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There was never nothing, it only seems that way. Like a thought you can't see it but it is there. There are things in the universe we can't see such as consciousness.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Consciousness is what there was before anything else. This is a must to create anything. Nothing was created without a thought.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Where was consciousness before there were brains to think? Floating around somewhere in the air?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I volunteer for that study!!! Call me when you start . I'd LOVE to see what we can come up with. Where WAS consciousness before brains??? Good question.
  Where do we start??? Uh... the ooey gooey center of the big ball of fire??? Lemme get my ruler???
  Gimme a 24hr notice, I may need to find the metal one...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately you can't have that study, as consciousness can't be separated from the brain. You can try this out for yourself, but I don't recommend it.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So! The world thunk up itself with no brain involved???
  Sounds plausible I guess. Brains from nothing. Where are my gooey-stuffs, and butane spray... I just gotta see this...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Brains evolve through evolution. Consciousness and thinking is a result (and emergent from) brains. Think about it. Plants don't have brains. In all likelihood, they don't think or have a consciousness. Amoebas don't have brains, and we don't observe them doing anything that would be a result of consciousness and thinking(they don't appear to make choices, they just react to chemical and physical forces).
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So people who react to the world in a haphazard anything goes type fashion evolved from plants???
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  brains are materialistic like most things on earth they work because the soul or consciousness makes contact when or before we are born. i understand that for some people this would be hard to consider. A brain can't work without consciousness but consciousness works without a brain.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  How?
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There are invisible things in the universe, things we can't see but we know they are there. Can you actually see a thought? thought not.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, but I don't think consciousness is one of those things.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Why not? It was and is responsible for all the Universes.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I won't say "prove it", but please give at least a logical explanation for that.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I will try my best with a difficult topic that most people can't comprehend. It is energy with very high vibrations. Energy that can't be seen. Everything vibrates. We being material matter have very low vibration. When vibration of a material object becomes heightened it becomes invisible. Consciousness has the highest vibration.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for explaining. I still can't believe something like that though, as it just seems like a leap of logical thought, with nothing to really back up the theory. Though I won't totally dismiss it out of hand.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, I will not comment further on this subject, it is a difficult one. I wish you well.
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "Where was consciousness before there were brains to think? Floating around somewhere in the air?"
  
  There was no air for consciousness to float in. No matter, no space, no time ... and yet the universe began to exist. Something with the requisite energy and intelligence to cause the cosmological constants to be fined tuned to incredible precision. That's enough evidence to at least question the assumption that consciousness requires a brain since no brains (matter) would exist without a preexisting consciousness to begin the physical universe.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "since no brains (matter) would exist without a preexisting consciousness to begin the physical universe."
  
  An assumption with zero evidence to back it up.
  
  The simple fact that your "consciousness" disappears under general anesthetic should show you that it requires a brain for consciousness.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  But when you sleep, you have dreams. But people would think you was unconscious. Yes???
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Sleeping is a state of different brain wave activity. I wouldn't consider it "unconscious" like when you are under anesthetic. Just a different state of consciousness. Actually, there are several states of sleep.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  speculation is an oozing of what our heart screams, right?
  So the people who watched their surgery under anesthetic were...??? At one stage of sleep!!! Boy, you DO think of everything!
  no convincing you...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No, not speculation. There is actual scientific evidence of different stages of sleep. It's been known for decades. Have you been sleeping?
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "An assumption with zero evidence to back it up.
  
  Not an assumption. Established scientific fact. The universe began (Big Bang) no natural order existed (time, space, matter). There was nothing natural to begin the universe thus it had to have (by definition) a supernatural cause. The precision with which the universe exploded into being is extremely persuasive evidence that the cosmological constants were fine tuned by a super-intellect.
  
  The simple fact that your "consciousness" disappears under general anesthetic should show you that it requires a brain for consciousness."
  
  Not at all. It only shows that the medium through which consciousness operates physically has been affected. NDE's now prove that the mind can operate independently of the physical brain.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "Not an assumption. Established scientific fact. The universe began (Big Bang) no natural order existed (time, space, matter). There was nothing natural to begin the universe thus it had to have (by definition) a supernatural cause. The precision with which the universe exploded into being is extremely persuasive evidence that the cosmological constants were fine tuned by a super-intellect."
  
  >>NOT an established fact.
  
  "Not at all. It only shows that the medium through which consciousness operates physically has been affected. NDE's now prove that the mind can operate independently of the physical brain.
  
  >>NDE's "prove" nothing.
  
  100% pure assumptions.
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  >>NOT an established fact.
  
  Yes, as a matter of fact the Big Bang is accepted and has 5 lines of evidence that support it. The precision of the cosmological constants is also a fact ... atheists are forced by their sacrosanct ideology to simply accept them as a given. Taken together they annihilate the obsolete ideology of atheism. The scientists that discovered the Big Bang were well aware of the implications. Most people don't have the background in logic and science to understand how devastating scientific proof of longstanding philosophical arguments is to atheism. That's why for instance that Richard Dawkins is frightened to debate William Lane Craig. He witnessed the spectacle of Christopher Hitchens making a fool of himself.
  
  "Not at all. It only shows that the medium through which consciousness operates physically has been affected. NDE's now prove that the mind can operate independently of the physical brain.
  
  >>NDE's "prove" nothing.
  
  100% pure assumptions.
  
  Dr. Jeffrey Long and others have taken that non-argument away. You should do some research.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You can SAY it all you want. The Big Bang is not an established fact. Just like evolution isn't an established facts. They are both THEORIES, supported by scientific facts. Scientists find NEW information all the time, which change theories to support the new facts. Just like there is new evidence that calls dark matter into question recently. Science is ALWAYS changing. You really think we know that much? We're in the infancy of science.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The balls in YOUR court to show evidence for NDE's, not mine. I have no interest.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That was SO pretty!!!
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Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago
Maybe God is just a trickster. And the universe is a product of magic.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Trickster gods
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster
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  Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  http://trickster-anthology.blogspot.com
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No way...
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It is magic to ordinary people. All in a days work for the Gods.
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Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago
The universe was just an accident waiting to happen.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No such thing as an accident. Everything that happens is for a purpose.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
This conversation has passed my IQ... but I'll be waiting... the MINUTE somebody says something regular, I'm all over it.
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Never sell yourself short. You strike me as being very perceptive. I believe that you value truth. Truth is accessible to anyone who desires it.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I'm short. truth is... I'm HORRIBLE in Science. Never have I been graded higher than C there...sometimes I think the Lord has kept it from me for some reason. He allowed me to accel in every orher subject.
  I do value truth (glad someone noticed lol) so my quest is to tell it. So that's what I'm gonna do. Even if I must only tell myself.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  My sister is (literally) a genius with a 160 IQ, and says "I don't believe in science". She likes to make fun of her dumber sister(me) all the time about it.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome to the club!!! Want a drink???
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mishpatposted 9 years ago
We have to be very careful with "facts" and who presents them. We already know that "scientific fact" is not fact in deed, by "sciences" own definition. "Scientific fact" is akin to circumstantial evidence in a criminal trial but closer to a "mere preponderance of evidence" in a civil trial. In neither situation is there an identifiable fact. Assumption is scientific fact. It needs only unspecified varying degrees required proofs to be recognized as "fact."
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
I think it sad but intended that Scientific guess is given more credence than the power of God/bible.
Science does not have to answer ALL questions before we give it our varying degrees of attention. But we expect that and more from God. No wonder he said, "no sign will be given except the sign of Jonas"
We've given our faith to Science. Then we mock him with what we have decided that we "know" already.
I don't think he finds it amusing. Our faith/what we rely upon is important to him.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  God could EASILY make it clear that he exists. He could easily make it clear which God exactly, he is.
  
  Why obfuscate and mess around?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's like a child "auditing" her parent. Remember all those things that you just could not understand then??? Mom didn't ever say, have some coffee, we'll discuss all my "grown-up" business with you... because she knew that even if she told you, you'd not be mature enough to understand, even if you knew.
  If He is the creator... He created ALL that we think we know... which means He KNOWS, and wants you to trust that He knows... or don't.
  He does prove himself all the time to me... But he doesn't tell everything. There must be a purpose for His obscurity. I trust anyway...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  A God who WANTS to be believed in, like yours does, sure makes it difficult to reasonably do that.
  
  There are billions who believe in other Gods, for no other reason than they were born in a certain geographical location.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  His main purpose is love. Not followers. He has MANY followers and when we count all generations, mathematically, he may possibly have all he needs to fill the new earth. Love draws them in... I personally, wouldn't want a bunch of friends who I had to constantly prove myself to, or else!!! I want people who love me for me. Not because I convinced them to.
  Get it??? He's gonna fill up the world with his friends.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Something you made up because it's something you want to believe. Where does it say that in the Bible?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Which part? My whole discourse here in this subject is biblical. I get my ideas about God/Jesus from there.
  Where does it say that his main purpose is love not followers? It doesn't say that verbatim, but he does say biblically that those who are not for him, are against him. They will perish (though he hates the idea, his word is true and will happen as he said) so people are not the main idea. He said MORE of them will die, than live.
  Do you see how i came to my conclusion based upon what the bible says???.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No, I only see wishful thinking.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  As expected.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You probably go by what "feels right" to you. Wishful thinking.
  
  Of course, some people's "spiritual discernment" consists of waiting for three coincidence to happen in order to confirm(like Cat said).
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Try the spirit to see if it is of God. (Bible)
  We all have wishes... but only truth is of any importance. If you find a lie in me... call it. I'm humble enough to explain my err and say sorry...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "Try the spirit" means what exactly?
  
  Spin three times on my head and if I land on my butt, it's God?
  
  It's your SUBJECTIVE sense, and nothing more.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It means test...
  No head/butt spinning (lol)
  Asking, "Does this "spirit" agree with the spirit of God???
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  And how could you possibly know if it agrees with the spirit of God?
  
  It has to be objective. Subjective means won't do.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There isn't just one God.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, there are thousands of God myths.
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  Lucid Psycheposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It is clear that God exists if one views the evidence without a preexisting bias. Our ability to reason is God given ... why should we not be expected to use it?
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There is not enough evidence that God exists. What little evidence there MIGHT be a God can be possibly explained by other things. Until then, you have a long way to Go to proving it.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There is no way of proving God. We have what we're getting until we see Him lighting up cloud formations.
  A wicked and perverse generation will be/is seeking after a sign.
  (Jesus said that.) But we won't be getting one. "There will be no sign given unto it" (or something like that) people are not panting deer anymore. They're interrogating bullies who won't believe no matter WHAT sign he displays. It's a thing of faith. Jesus was smart. He knew that only those who believe will believe.
  Remember one of his first "fantastic feats" was sending a snake to convince that dude.
  Would you believe that, using trickery, some men tried to mock God by conjuring up 2 snakes. Yes the snakes got dead, but a few witnessed that occasion; and STILL did not believe?
  He don't turn tricks no more. Lol
  He learned early that people who love us will love us if we have nothing to give them but ourselves. Proving it all the time can get to be a hassle.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  See?????
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  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What is this "god" that you say exist?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "It is clear that God exists if one views the evidence without a preexisting bias."
  
  Empty cup
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
And please remember, He gave us scripture... He must think it good enough for the little faith that He asks of us.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That would be a LOT of faith.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  A little faith is all he asks. The bible fully expresses all we need to know to have just a little. He can work with a little faith. It grows exponentially.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
The only measure of the spirit of God, is the spirit of God.
Do not read a Dawson or Darwin book to find out about the spirit of God. Please!!!
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
And see all the conditions placed on God???who are we to tell him that/how he must prove himself?
My children simply may not ask that of me.
.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Avoiding the question of subjectivity.
  
  What is the exact method of determining the "spirit"?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Well I don't know... (sarcasm alert)
  How do you get to know spirits? How would you get to know mine?????????? I do have one. So do you...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Still avoiding a direct answer, I see.
  
  You won't admit it's a subjective "feeling", as I know that's all it is.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus says different. Now which one of you have I chosen to follow to the father he spoke of???
  I avoid nothing. I have no reason to. My answers have satisfied me. No problem if you need more.
  I remember what I did when I needed more.I ran to Jesus. The biblical one. He told me all about himself in scripture. He didn't tell me all the "whys" but humility is helpful in realizing that all cannot be known now. The bible emphasizes patience and faith.
  My thing is, we've got awl the patience in the world for Darwin'n'em. We don't wanna wait for God. And I think it will cost some of us big...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Disapointing that you are lying to yourself.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ditto...
  But one day, you'll see it first-hand. I don't know about you, but I don't think I'll be disappointed then...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I don't want to live in a world oblivious to facts. That seems a bit silly to me.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Then you'll suffer in this new Scientific age...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I quite enjoy living in the scientific age. I enjoy learning about the new theories and facts learned and presented daily by scientists. Lots of new discoveries. Don't you enjoy trying to figure out how the universe and everything in it works?
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
I already know how stuff works.
I figured that since you felt silly living in a world devoid of fact you may not like the uncertainty of that world their stuff flip-flops like flounder out of water but hey; to each his own..
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Uncertainty doesn't bother me.
  
  That may well be one of the reasons people HAVE to believe in Gods. They can't stand uncertainty. Thanks for bringing that up, things make more sense to me now.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Uncertainty doesn't bother me.
  
  I just cannot believe in a God who is oozing with uncertainty.
  
  I think one of us is, without doubt, uncertain. But it's not me...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Of course I'm uncertain. Who doesn't love a mystery?
  
  The difference is, I can study and learn about the universe, and even devise tests to see if I'm right. A religionist has to wait to find out until they are dead to find out if they're right.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What you are failing to realize, is that you have seen scientific study that confirm the existence of God. We just give more credence to what our hearts scream... yea or nay...
  I too am a scholar. Books are great!!!!!!
  I hate that they seem to be disappearing. I'll ever buy as many as I can.
  The difference is... we read with different spirits... (don't make it a liquor joke im already laighing )
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No, I haven't seen evidence that confirms the existence of God. Just that points in that direction. Not compelling enough for me. I'm about 50/50. Which is rare for an agnostic. Most agnostics see almost(or no) evidence for god.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds lukewarm to me...
  It's not something that you must take either way. He HATES fence-riding though. They seem to try getting the benefit w/o membership; from my human perspective.
  It's like an acknowledgement that there actually could be NOTHING to you, as in, you're phoney; but if you do this flip, ill think about being your friend... got any friends like that???
  We probably looked at the same "God-study" and walked away with something TOTALLY different. What matters is how you feel about what you've heard.
  (My missing s typo earlier bothered me for a second, but I knew you knew what I meant. I like the subject of grammar. I know it so well, that I manipulate and push the envelope on speech all the time.) Most people here, know that about me. I've left a spectrum of different impressions though. When I quote, I probably don't need quotations. You know my voice... we've talked for years. One would probably have a problem duplicating genaea here. You know my voice... I've been speaking to you for years now. You basically know what I'm gon say. And you know just about how I'm gon say it.
  Yeah I missed some keys... bit you know...
  You don't see enough evidence. And I think that bothers you. I've been speaking to you for years too...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No, it doesn't bother me that I don't see enough evidence for God.
  
  I'm actually happy about it. I don't want there to be a God. Any God would have had to create the spider wasp. I don't want to run into the guy who would deliberately create something like that. You ever see nature? It's a madhouse of kill or be killed out there. Who with a good moral sense would create that? I hope he doesn't exist.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
And it shows.
I'm sorry for the err in judgment.
Oh boy.... he DID create a whole lot of ugly scary looking stuff. The sound of "spider wasp" gives me the flux. Gotta go see it. Be right back.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's also possible God isn't omnipotent, and couldn't create the universe outside of certain constraints (laws of physics). Perhaps it could be worse, in other words, and this was the best he could do.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
Yeah... that spider thingy is horrible. If he created that... I don't wanna see hell.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
It's official!!! we're different.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I don't like your God. He's cruel.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
You do not see the big picture.
And non-existent beings cannot be cruel.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What is the "big picture"?
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
Jesus was the total picture of God. He was not a ferocious man...
The OT God was protecting the purity of his people. This is one thing that makes me feel that love/good is more important than people.
The problems of today are our fault. Love is missing. But there is also reason that evil is allowed now, love. He desires that no one perishes. He wants all of His. They all may not be born yet. They may not all have changed their minds yet. I don't know for sure why... but i can speculate, based upon all he said in scripture. I don't need to know EVERYTHING. I really don't think it possible.
Jesus was God in spirit. He wants us to be God too. Jesus shows us how.
We don't have to say yes.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah right. It's because of humans bringing evil into the world that God decided to create spider wasps. Makes sense to me.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I really did lol.
  God is not complicated. Evil makes it difficult to comprehend good.
  Who are we to say that the ugly ass bug should not be? We don't know why... we have very little info available once you look at it.
  Mishpat just put some stuff on my mind. We really are vulnerable. We cannot know some stuff.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, very little information. That's why we keep looking. Instead of making up goddunit stories to satifsy us.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I like goddunit it's a very likely explanation.And I feel it to be much better than the made-up "everthing just went boom for some reason and all particles fell in perfect line all by themselves." What has satisfied is the fact that we think God can be deleted altogether. I dont wanna live in that world. The bible made up the goddunit stories, one day after the well-thought-out boom; and they satisfy my curiosity just fine.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Then you have to explain how God came to exist. So you're back to the same place everyone else starts form. Adding on a God is just adding on another, unessesary level of complexity.
  
  I say the universe can exist on it's own. You say God can exist on it's own. It's basically the same thing. Except that you're adding on another, supernatural world where anything at all can happen, without rules or order, where your omnipotent God can do whatever He likes.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yesssssss, My Lady!!! we are ALL stuck at the same point!!!
  God was "added" before anything. He will tell me how, one day.
  The (edit) natural has rules and order. Our mathematicians account for the perfection. I think
  And God (not the atmosphere) can do whatever... the atmosphere is a well-oiled machine that runs all by itself because it was perfectly laid out to work according to certain rules such as, "You stay put, water, this is your boundary, lessen I give the ok to split." The heart... my God, is a machine that I will NEVER understand. It acts according to its rules for many many years. Why... nutrition? Heck no!!! to me... it took some carefully planned strategies to give me a "battery" that lasts 42 years already and still going strong, after all I've been through. And it happened to millions. I cannot utter "good work Universe! " I just don't think I owe creation (especially accidental) any credit. That seems ludicrous to me...
  Supernatural is how I account for
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Please tell me the supernatural rules and show me the order. I'm waiting. I really do have all day, so take your time.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  There are no supernatural rules that I know of. Sorry, I did not make that clear. God is supernatural. He runs it however he feels. The natural has order beyond compare. My skin sheds daily, and I still have some!!! It happens to everyone. perfection... our bodies adjust to atmosphere. It's amazing to me. Hot climates produced brown people. That sun is an amazing creation all by itself! Again, amazing. And it has rules. It stays relatively put. Bears know when to go to sleep... and stay sleep! Lol... once we learn our rules, we're virtually unstoppable. Different people have different rules. Isn't that something? I've been reading about blood-type diets. My blood type doesn't process wheat well. I had no idea when my hands and feet broke out in a layer of multicolored blisters for more than 10 years. I wore gloves for two of those years. Once I was miraculously given my cure via a 3 day fast, I was amazed that something as supposedly healthy actually poisons my system. Recently I saw that that was written somewhere... uh... I forgot my point... oh!!! Order... the Lord knew when I was born, what my rules were, and whoever came up with the bloid-type diet. It took me many years to figure. Actually miraculously. One doctor gave me a syphilis diagnosis. Since I knew that that couldn't be right the second opinion gave me steroid grease... NOT ONE of them said, "what are you eating"??? Could've saved me a whole lotta embarrassment. But God, in due time tapped my shoulder after fasting. "These are your rules, genaea, fix it" now I only have croissants in cases of energency. then I only get one blister. Lol... gotta obey the rules...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Which is exactly what I was getting at. Your supernatural world has no rules. Which is completely illogical. And you buy it without a second thought. I insist MY world have order. The natural world has astounding order, so there is absolutely no sense or place for a supernatural world. Billions of people buy that nonsense every day of their lives, and are happy with that. I don't get it.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's probably all that EXPERIENCE that they're having with the supernatural world where the "rules" don't apply...
  No, human beings do not regularly have the same exact dream for three nights I know we've had THAT conversation before, and I'd bet you remember. It's not according the the usual order. I'll get my Freud book and see what he says.
  However, supernatural power is witnessed regularly. Like that rapper guy who was shot five times, and lived to rap about it with a slight lisp. That's not normal or natural. The cancer patient with no treatment proclaimed, "I'm cancer free!!!" Not natural... a whole ball of nothing becoming a huge something with natural laws that are precisely followed day in and day out. Not supernatural? I doubt it. But there is another miracle... we are made up of the exact same materials. Yet we're night and day literally. not natural... my black clock radio works exactly like the white one. That's natural order. The white clock gives the same time, same buzz, same music, I must input the same power sources. But people... even of the same color are often vastly different. Is that natural to you???
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You can't claim something is supernatural just because you don't KNOW what the explanation is. Obviously, we don't know everything. But we are learning new things daily. I literally learn something new every day. In fact, it's hard to keep track of all the new scientific discoveries, and to make sense of them. We are on the fast track. Humans can't keep up with everything we are learning. That's why I like to keep an open mind, and have very few established beliefs. I have like three beliefs, and everything else is up for debate.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I dont want to be tossed to and fro by every new development. Changing what I believe with every Tom, Dick and Harry is what God calls infidelity. Whoremongers get "in bed" with whomever has the biggest shiniest toy
  I may claim whatever I want. I'm a child of the king.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I know. I could never live with such a narrow view of life. I want to know the truth, whatever it is. Even if I find it to be unpleasant.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Some things you cannot know. We're all stuck at the same point... natural? H-no...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You don't know that. It's just a cop-out for not looking further into matters.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's a realization that I'll never know everything. All that I think I know can change at any moment. I once thought that I'd always have a cord attached to my home phone. Imagine how surprised I was when I found out that I could carry my phone anywhere in the U.S. and use it (without a lot of trees).
  One thing has remained constant since I was born...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Never give up, you might learn everything. It's no use being so pessimistic. That's what's exciting about life, figuring things out.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I'm still waiting for your something from nothing study... I got my metal ruler!
  We will have SO much fun on our wheel! Something from nothing... no thought but an accidentally occurring set of beings that grew up into real people without a lot of hair (well most of us) and brains... and an Everready of the 4th kind beating nonstop for a whole lot of hours, without intention... yet leaving some without the ability to grow up.
  They may even be smarter and we just don't know it... I mean they do seem to mock us a lot. Laughing and throwing butt-pebbles, and playing all day while we scramble around thinking and paying bills and scrambling for a way to feed them...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure what you mean. I don't believe in "something from nothing".
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You've made it crystal clear that you have no idea what you believe.
  The something from nothing originated from our conversation re brains forming without consciousness. We obviously have brains... so the originating force was not God, but nothing, technically. Unless I've misunderstood. You do seem to bounce back and forth from no God to his personal attributes. So... maybe you lost me somewhere.
  Let's start again. Chicken or egg???
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Consciousness come from the electric impulses in your brain. How is that "nothing"? They even know now that memories are actually stored in the cells of your brain. How is that "nothing"?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Looks like you've caught my avoidance bug...
  Why is there electric in my brain? And where is my outlet to charge my phone? Have I been using the wrong end of my earbuds???
  Did the electric make my forefather's brain??? Did my forefather have a brain? What electron makes it form thoughts that talk to me all day? Why is it so efficient, yet my brother struggled with his??? Why don't you and I have the same thoughts??? Don't you have a brain too???
  Looks like we have a lot of ground to cover...
  Chicken or egg???
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I never avoid questions. I answer them as clearly as I am able.
  
  That being said, I am having guests for dinner, so I will come back later tonight to try to answer your questions(to the best of my ability, of course). Not that I'm perfectly sure what the exact thing you're getting at is (but I will try).
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No problem. I actually did "have all day". I can wait.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I can only speculate here, but I would guess that we form 3D models in our brains based on the sensory input we receive from the outside world, which is then processed electronically and chemically. Kind of like a TV shows visual and auditory from received signals. I assume we "think " and "imagine" by using these same types of models, but by using stored memories to build the inner visual models. Since I can only imagine visually and audibly, I'm not sure if other people can "imagine" physical sensations, taste or smell. I suspect at least some people can, because I know these things can be hallucinated, and also people sense "phantom limbs" etc. I also imagine this is where empathy comes from, that people can probably build "models' in their minds of other people's emotions and pain.
  
  As for how brains evolved, I'm sure it started with animals with a few nerve receptors like the roundworm,and worked it's way up to more and more complex brains. This doesn't show an actual progression, but you can see how a progression would be possible.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_an … of_neurons
  
  Let me know if I answered your questions ok, as I was never quite sure what you were asking.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I told you my Science was off. You said a whole lot of nothing to me.
  Let's try it this way.
  Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
  This question is, to me, supposed to evoke thoughts along the lines of creation vs waiting to be created.
  I think the chicken came first. I cannot image the Lord looking at a field full of eggs and calling his sight, good.
  What's your take?
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You mean which came first, consciousness or the brain? I would definitely say the brain came first.
  
  The reason I say that is because I don't see how a consciousness can exist without it. How would it possibly exist? Why would the most complicated thing in the universe exist(the brain) if it wasn't specifically FOR thinking? I suppose some people look at it as a kind of "receiver" like a TV or radio, but we have never detected anything coming in or out of the brain in any way. All electric impulses happen inside the brain, between neurons.
  
  How do you think consciousness can exist, out there, with no brain to support it?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Well, creationists like me feel that there was a supernatural consciousness involved. It came first and thought up the brain and formed it with his hands. And had no problem with where everything would go, and how it would work.
  Where do YOU say the brain came from?
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I already said. Evolution. Started with the first neuron, then worked it's way up.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yep. A single neuron... was the neuron smart? Was it always around? How did it get there? What made it grow?
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It probably started in something like roundworms. They only have 300, and they are among the first animals. The first neuron would have had to be a mutation, and then duplications from then on out. How smart is a roundworm? Not very I wouldn't think. Although smart enough to stick around for five and a half hundred million years.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Old earthworms... they only come out in the rain probably catch cold.
  Hogwash janesix. (Lol) When you state what you believe and then say, "probably" you point directly to where your faith lies.... probably means maybe. Which could translate to "maybe I have no earthwormly idea. But I will proclaim what I think I do know. ..let the rest fall in line later." If you lived in Utah, you'd be a Mormon and you wouldn't know why. Lol
  What makes my probably, any different from your probably??? Your probably has young guys and gals with labcoats doing all the figuring. And they haven't figured that part yet... but you'll be of good courage, waiting on Dr. Whachamacallit. Standing on his word... see how that works?
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Not really. I actually have my own weird ideas that don't really fit in with the conclusions of a lot of scientists. I do base my ideas on facts though. My ideas change according to the new facts I learn. Yes, I already know what you think about that:)
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Amen
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mishpatposted 9 years ago
Ever wonder what spiders, flys, mosquitoes, fleas, etc. did before the fall of man? Ever wonder what lions ate before the Flood? Ever wonder what was happening before God made the Earth? Ever wonder why we don't have and can't find answers to these things. Proverb 25:2. Say, we might be able to use this verse to show that science has a place, but not the answers.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No, I don't wonder those things, because I don't believe in fairy tales.
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Hhhmmm. Evolution. Hhhmm. Aliens. Aahhmm. Big Bang. Your right, lets not consider fairy tales.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I don't "believe" in aliens. I don't "believe" in the Big Bang. I do think that evolution occurred and is still occurring, although not through random mutation and natural selection as the driving force.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No aliens or big bang; but, yet occurring evolution...? That explanation is least plausible to me... but I won't call it ignorance, naivety, or wishful thinking. I'll just buy a baby monkey and see what extra improvement (or deficit, depending on what day it is) he was able to come up with??? Maybe not...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's about looking at the evidence, and deciding what is the most likely explanation. Why did God feel the need to make it LOOK like things evolved from one organism into another? Why did He create a genetic code to show the exact relationships of one organism to another, and to show how we can retrace their evolutionary path? Does God like playing games?
  
  At the very least, God USED evolution to get from less complex organisms to another, and as a means for adaptation to the environment.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Is you believing in God, or no???
  I doubt he had an inkling of concern about what things would look like to us... he said be... and it was good! Kinda like having kids, we do not think out what "their ideas" about our home or socioeconomic status will be before we lay down... we just do it... and tell them what the rules are when they join OUR households. Yes???
  God made animals first. Them seven days could be seven thousand years for all we know for sure, (it was precisely stated what one day was though) but man came AFTER elephants. It is, of course, logical to imagine we came from them because of it. But I think that God just saved the best for last, like the bible (that gave me all the other info I believe) says...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I would think it's a bit more logical to assume we came from a type of animal that we look the most like. A primate of some sort. And what do you know? We are the most closely related to the chimpanzee, which we can tell by comparing dna. Good thing God created dna, so we could check our logical assumptions.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  One maker gives more credence to sameness. Remember Stevie Wonder? He has a sound. He has a way with lyrics that not many can copy. Smokey, having written for many artists, has a sound. No matter who sings his songs, you hear his flavor. Same artist... God was smart. And we've figured out how to pinpoint his acids but we have no idea about the "animator". What makes my dna act different from yours? What makes my thoughts so much different? Why do I cry when you laugh, and laugh when you cry??? Why do I believe in God, wholeheartedly, and you don't? Why do I see a God-study and rejoice; while you see the same study and throw out duck lips with a sucking sound and a lil eye-roll???
  And why the hell do monkeys throw their feces??? I'm glad "evolution" knew at what point to stop with the dumb stuff...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "One maker gives more credence to sameness"
  
  That is the Intelligent designer line that is easily refuted. A designer would create things the same of course, but not adding onto things like evolution does. A designer wouldn't make such crappy designs either. A designer would create a blueprint. Evolution just cobbles things together one bit at a time. Evolution looks jury-rigged, a design would be way more perfect.
  
  Edit: A good designer wouldn't put the sewage system in the middle of the playground. Unless he has a sick sense of humor.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So you know... whew!!! I've been wondering all my life. Which came first??? The chicken or the egg? And while you're at it, do tell where you were standing when he placed the stars... I just gotta know.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I was beat to it and I'm still laughing.
  
  What happened before the first man wiggled out of the swamp for no reason at all???
  
  What happened before the first man appeared???
  How did all the different species of everthing that is alive come about? What was the first order of business? Were there any meetings?
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Of course no "first man" wiggled out of the swamp. I doubt you think that's what evolutionists say happened. I know you're a little smarter than that.
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Slarty O'Brianposted 9 years ago
Yeah. It's kind of a no brainer.
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janesixposted 9 years ago
Why am I up at three in the morning?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Omg!!! I am always asking myself that question!!! I was up with you this morning. Usually am too... I don't know how I missed this post last/this morning, but would have loved to keep you company.
  I'm unemployed (for the most part) but that is far from the reason I'm up so late. I've been a night-shiner since I was 4. I am the only 5 yr old who knew that tv used to go off and come back up with the flag. I often wonder why. But I have found them to be really productive hours of writing.
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mishpatposted 9 years ago
Gravity? Anyone know what gravity is, other than a word? How does it work? Is it the "magic" of God? Is it the power of God?

Does an omnipotent Being need magic? Would He use as a standard that which He calls an abomination?
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody knows what gravity really is, or how it works. But attributing something like that to God simply because we don't know yet is a complete cop out.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's actually just believing what the bible says...
  Bible said God made everything. I'm including gravity. And how the heck did the bible know about the world's "spindle"??? What could have given that knowledge then???
  
  Oops! not spindle... gimme a sec.
  Choking on my toes. Gotta get it straight.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Spindle? What are you talking about? I must have missed that one.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, my friend. My brain stayed home on that one. Please disregard.
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Don't be. A spindle and a pillar, especially in this case, can be the same.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Except the Earth doesn't have a "pillar".
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  1 Samuel 2:8. The same word for singular and plural, depending on context.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  He raises the poor from the dust
  and lifts the needy from the ash heap;
  he seats them with princes
  and has them inherit a throne of honor.
  
  “For the foundations of the earth are the Lord’s;
  on them he has set the world.
  
  That's all I got.
  
  Still don't see what that has to do with the Earth itself. The Earth doesn't have "foundations" OR "pillars".
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That's okay. I understand it, perfectly. But, then, God and I have a personal relationship through Jesus Christ.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, says so right there! But they are the Lord's. He knows.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  More made up, meaningless stuff. Sure, the Earth has magical, invisible pillars that hold it up.
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Well yeah but they stand on the backs of turtles.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Could be elephants, I've heard that one too.
  
  Elephants are more logical though, they're much more sturdy than a turtle.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  
  Reminded even when you dont know it.
  I love this life of victory!!!
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Gravity is what keeps your feet on the ground. It is one of those things you can't see but you know it is there.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Gravity can be measured. It interacts with objects. We know it's basic rules. Consciousness is only in your head, doesn't interact with the outside world, can't be measured. The two can't be compared at all. Consciousness isn't out there, interacting with the environment, floating around in the air.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's another thing that cant be seen, but you know it's there. Conscious is spirit. How can we say it's not? My conscience cannot be seen or measured (thank God) but I know I'm conscious; even when it doesn't appear so to others. The thing that differentiates yo' brain activity from my brain activity.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yet we can detect brain activity, always INSIDE the brain. Never have we detected brain activity outside, or interacting with the environment in any way. It's all in your head....
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You can detect brain activity but you can't detect the mind which is the conscious part of your being. (the mind).
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That I have to agree with.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's not about the brain activities outside your head. It's all about inside. You are correct, for once. how you process is you uniquely. That is where you find spirit.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  "Spirit" is meaningless if you can't explain it. It's just a made up thing.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I just explained it... remember?
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No you didn't. Where does the spirit reside? What mechanism does God use to place the spirit inside people?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  The Holy Spirit-infuser apparatus is the TOPPEST of kingdomly secrets. And I've already said too much. Lol
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Come on. Don't be shy. The present two answers are right in front of us. I don't know and I don't know. But we have the empirical evidence of both in our being, and it guides us.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jomine and janesix are missing their inside "imperial" evidence. It's easy to see that there must be a reason (bias) for it.
  I don't know, leaves too much wiggly room...
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  When you don't know... you don't know and it ain't a sin, Proverb 25:2; 1 Corinthians 2. We know its there. We know when it got there. I don't understand how it got there. But it is there. Grace has taken care of it all.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Amen!!!
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I would say that this topic is beyond your understanding. Therefore you would do better to talk about something a bit more trivial that you may or may not be able to understand. No offence but you are out of your depth.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Correct. Spirit and consciousness floating around in the air is definitely beyond of my level of possible understanding.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  So when we die, that's it. All those reports of people watching their surgery or the ambulance worker pump their chests are dreams or imagination. But it's "all we got..." you have rejected more "evidence" of "truth"
  You think that you don't "buy" the experience of others... but you haven't NEVER (don't bother me bout no double-neg ) tested a fossil, or a time-date stamp, or performed a dna test but because many people agree and show what you accept as their evidence...
  We are the master of our domain. Until we follow God. But that is a one-mind system. The kind of world order we look forward to...
  We all have our consciousness (spirit) to drive however we wish. Or yield...
  What one yields to is their own business. There just happen to be consequences. Unless you believe because then you miraculously look blameless to God... but that's another forum
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  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You know you are conscious but do you know what is "Consciousness"?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Spirit, the fancy way that men came up with to keep from sayn spirit all the time sos it don sound so spooooooky...
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  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Just like they came up with nonsense "spirit"?
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  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Just like they came up with the nonsense "spirit"?
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Quite right.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Consciousness is floating around. it is everywhere.
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Can you explain how it works? No one else seems to be able to. Just telling "what it does" is like saying an engine make a car move. That does not explain the engine.
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mishpatposted 9 years ago
Just a few more items which hopefully will generate even more well thought out responses

... one God ... James 2:19
... two covenants ... Galatians 4:24
... third heaven ... 2 Corinthians 12:2
... four corners of the earth ... isaiah 11:12
... fifth rib ... 2 Samuel 2:23
... six years ... Leviticus 25:3
... seventh day ... God ... rested ... Genesis 2:2
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  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Who will give pepsi to god who gets tired by seven days of work?
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for assisting in making my point.
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  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Always willing to help.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was there. Maybe he had the cooler.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was not there at the birth of the universe.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I can see that...
  But what about Jesus saying that he's going back from whence he came? Didn't he say that? Seems I remember something like that...
  Without him (at least in spirit or conceived already in the heart of God) was nothing made???
  Let's talk it out when you have time.
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  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That will make him a lunatic.
  
  You heard him say?
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You know this from scripture?
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  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No he was not there then, he was born later as an illegitimate child.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Jomine Jose, in the corner!
  You know... well, maybe you don't.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
So these people UNDER anesthetic infuence watching their surgery were sleep??? Sounds like youre saying one or the other at first... and then we "flip"... and I'm too old.
Are we both asleep??? I feel like I'm dreaming. Am I dreaming???
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No, people under anesthetic are not asleep. They are unconscious. People who see themselves having surgery have active imaginations, or their anesthetic wasn't working.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  In no way evidence of conscious outer-body...
  Noted!!! So, you've rejected "my" evidence. And proof that spirit exists.
  What other trick shall I perform (unsuccessfully) for you???
  I got some bubble gum!!!
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Show me studies that prove out of body experiences. This shouldn't be too hard, as I know there have been some studies on this.
  
  You're turn to Google.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Bubble gum's more fun... gimmie a bubble gum trick!!! I was champion bubble-gum-bubble blower back home!!!
  Can you climb in my box???
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Sleep, you still have sensory input and sense of time
  
  Unconsciousness, you don't
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Neat!!! I'll never be able to squeeze into that teeny tiny box...
  How about seeing ambulance workers, who don't have time for anesthesia, from the back or outside the van??? Now if THAT'S not a good enough trick... maybe I can go get my glitter.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Your brain produces DMT, a natural hallucinogen. Maybe there is a study on that. Why don't you google it?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Does my brain produce Dmt under anesthesia or when im sleep??? Or do I have to ckeck one of the other stages of sleep to see if I can fit my body watching ambulance people work on my chest from outside the van, in there???
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you do a little research on it yourself? Learning is exciting and fun.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I see we have a new avoidance Queen!!!
  I gladly step down from my throne.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  What, do you expect me to know EVERYTHING? My brain isn't an encyclopedia.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Funny, that's what I've been telling you.
  We just gotta trust some stuff... or don't.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. I trust that the universe is logical. No room for supernatural, unexplainable "stuff".
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Wait on it...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  If I'm wrong, so what?
  
  Anyway, it's impossible to CHOOSE to believe in something. You either do or you don't.
  
  I believe in free will, not a choice, even though I think the universe may be deterministic. I can't choose my beliefs. I doubt you can either.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yeah. No way we don't. We change our minds, all the time, at will.
  We just switch, just like that...
  Many things convince us. Sway us in all kinds of directions, if we let it...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Our beliefs can be influenced, of course. Are you saying you CHOOSE to believe in Jesus? I simply don't believe that.
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
Seek, and ye shall find...
I'm starting to wonder if the bible means that ANYTHING we seek, we find.
I bet I can find evidence of the flying spaghetti monster if I look real hard in my bowl... .
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  God WILL forgive you All in your ignorance, EVENTUALLY.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know from scripture. He forgives the sinner who knows he is a sinner, humbles himself, and agrees with God no matter WHAT it looks like.
  Does he tolerate your search for "nothing" when he's right there calling?
  He said, "If you deny me, I will deny you..."
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Cgenaeaposted 9 years ago
You have been speaking to me, often from a pedestal, for years, Mommy
You may answer my question, I bet.
Yes! Yes! Yes! I CHOOSE Jesus.
No matter WHAT anyone says.
Say you got proof he doesn't exist??? Try me... I've been down that road before. Well I looked, from my side of the street... things just LOOK different from where you are. That's been "proven" too.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  It's impossible to prove something doesn't exist.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You could be right, it may be possible to chose what we believe. I can only go from experience, though. I've tried to believe in things before just through will, and it never worked.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  We know what we know. We guess at the rest. If we believe anything long enough, we amass a portfolio of little proofs along the way.
  If I suck in, that there is not really enough evidence to prove God exists, I'm going to take to heart, every study that confirms what "I" suspect; rejecting most others that don't agree with what I've ALREADY decided that I believe.
  There is a very important reason that the bible says that our cup (mind/spirit) should be emptied out when we come to him, ready to receive. He cannot be bothered with our ideas of how things REALLY should go. He does not trust our judgment.
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janesixposted 9 years ago
"We know what we know. We guess at the rest. If we believe anything long enough, we amass a portfolio of little proofs along the way.
If I suck in, that there is not really enough evidence to prove God exists, I'm going to take to heart, every study that confirms what "I" suspect; rejecting most others that don't agree with what I've ALREADY decided that I believe.
There is a very important reason that the bible says that our cup (mind/spirit) should be emptied out when we come to him, ready to receive. He cannot be bothered with our ideas of how things REALLY should go. He does not trust our judgment."

I'm still not convinced. Do you think it would be possible for you to not believe in Jesus? Could you force yourself to believe any other way?

Seems like changing your worldview would be shattering, and not easily done.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I could today, fix my mind to believe that Jesus does not exist. There's "evidence" to bolster that opinion, everywhere!!!
  I WILL not...
  I block those suggestions easily. Don't I??? Lol...
  You block what you want, too.
  Depends solely upon where your faith lies.
  I cannot be convinced of what they say, if I don't give them more credit than I give my father in heaven. I put Him above ALL others willfully, with bells on...
  The MOMENT I put Darwin first...he begins to carry more weight.
  Do we CHOOSE our friends???
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, we choose our friends. But you can't choose who you love. It's either there or it isn't. Just like beliefs. They're either there or they aren't. That's just my opinion though, so I won't argue the point further (because I can't be certain).
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Love is an action. We choose our actions for sure. No one has control of my hands and feet and mouth but me. What makes me to say loving words when my instincts want to berate and belittle??? Jesus said... I know he's right. I yield to his will for me. Now I don't hit that mark all the time. But I aim to...
  Ok, subject dropped, for now. ♡
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Well, now we have something to argue about:)
  
  Love is a feeling, brought on by chemical reactions in the brain and body. You are describing empathy, not love. You can't choose who you have feelings for. You can choose your actions, which can go AGAINST feelings. If you don't feel love for someone, even can't stand them, you can still choose to be nice. But you don't love them.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Being nice is love. Even if I hate God... if I give instead of take, it is love. God is love.
  You have shown a Godly characteristic even if you don't believe it. What you are referring to is emotion. Not the same. I can choose to love you (clothe, feed, lead you to good) even if I do not like you very much. I loved my husband one day. And the next day, I didn't... but the next day I did... and 15 minutes later... thats (fleeting) emotion for you... it's hard to choose emotion.
  Love does not change. Love is consistent.
  I chose to feed him (always without spit) even on my "off" days. (Am I explaining this rite?????) Seems a lil off. What'd I miss???
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, I guess you can call it love, but I only see it as empathy or altruism. I see love a purely an emotion.
  
  I've seen enough evidence that humans are mostly altruistic by nature, even from a young age. I think bad behavior is learned. What do you think?
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Most often. My brother and I both picked up smoking and drinking. But neither ever happened in our house, growing up. The air was clean as a whistle.
  We learned from someone, but not our closest role models. There were three separate families in our house, all related. No smoking, no drinking. We'd just puff rings outside.
  Why do you ask?
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Just curious what you think. I like to understand why people think the way they do. I don't understand people very well.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  No one can. That's why judgment is off-limits.
  Some of what makes us up is learned at home. Some is what we've learned, and accepted from books. Yet some is experience and/or trial and error.
  Science is not trusted for me mostly because I have no idear whut they're sayn. Deoxyriboneucleic is such an obnoxious word...
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  But you're smart, you just choose not to understand it or look into it further. You settle.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Come on!!! Settle???
  Nooooo way...
  I've thunk this thing through quite thoroughly...
  My starting point, was Jesus.
  He walked me through it with every biblical word he spoke.
  I believed already. So yes, there is an advantage there.
  But it was not easy to say yes...
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  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  That is factually incorrect. The starting point is the anonymous writers who made up the myth of Jesus.
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  Cgenaeaposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Oh Brother...
  Please do not make me take it from the top...
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Careful. There are at least four prominent types of love in the Bible. The most prominent is an action. The others have to be analyzed by context. There is, of course, a 5th, the one the world uses to describe purposeful deviant behavior.
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Have you considered that some of "us" believers started out with no faith, no belief and no God? We hear the words reason, think, objective and subjective thrown around, or at us, in a manner that suggests only subjectivity. And that akin to stupidity and nonsense.
  
  It is especially "jaw tightening" to read of unbelievers "putting believers in their place" with the use of some worldly thinking applied to the Word of God.
  
  They seem to forget that believers aren't perfect (in the standard definition). In fact, and for the most part, it is as Peter said we are "scarcely" saved, meaning there isn't really that much difference between the saved and unsaved... except Jesus Christ.
  
  And these same all knowing folk have the temerity to demand answers to why God did this or that, but hide in some other forum page for a while when a direct answer is given that cannot be refuted. Are the afraid they might believe? I think so because they are aware of what they will have to give up and are not willing to do so.
  
  And, of course, a comment like this will raise eyebrows and another Bible verse will be foisted upon the believer by these folks "Your judging me." I really just feel sorry for them at that point. That's really all that can be done at that point, that and move on.
  
  Man cannot change man. Only God can do that, and only if the man is truly seeking.
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  janesixposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure what all that has to do with what I was saying. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
  
  All I said was I don't think we can choose our beliefs. And then I said I wasn't even sure if I was right about that.
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  mishpatposted 9 years agoin reply to this
  Just needed to be said.
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  mickyb1posted 9 years agoin reply to this
  You can and do choose your beliefs because you were gifted with free will.
  reply report

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