Christian refugees

1. 84

   Austinstarposted 8 years ago

   Jeb Bush has stated that he would allow only "Christian" Syrian or other refugees. He could not answer the question, "How does one PROVE that they are a "Christian"? Can YOU answer this question? How would you go about proving that someone is a Christian or not?

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      IslandBitesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Another reason why he shouldnt be president.

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      Oztinatoposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Those who have compassion and tolerance for their fellow man are truly "christian". Mouthing platitudes is not christian. An atheist could be more Christian than a so called Christian.

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         Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         Agreed. Which implies that by Jeb's litmus test he'd have to pack his bags and leave the country.

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      ahorsebackposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      ALMOST NOTHING ..........., according to FBI people can be vetted , verified or otherwise proven  about the mass refugee problems today ,    how does the fact that Christians can't be verified !      Does That even bother anyone ?

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   4. 78

      colorfuloneposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I first heard that we should only allow Christian Syrian refugees from Franklin Graham. But, he also sent an open letter to Obama with a real solution to the refugee problem. 
      
      Dear Mr. President,
      With nearly 40 years of experience in international relief work, assisting refugees and displaced people from Southeast Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East, I would like to add my voice to those supporting the establishment of safe zones in Syria. This would allow Syrians fleeing from areas of conflict inside the country to find safety, food, medicine, and shelter, and stay within their borders, nearer their homes, until a political and military settlement has been reached. Most refugees that I have worked with over the years desire to eventually return home. As we have all seen, fleeing to another country adds great risk to their lives and exposes the refugees to exploitation by unscrupulous people who deal in human trafficking.
      
      Establishing safe zones would require partnership with and military assistance from our allies in Europe and the Middle East, and it would require a considerable commitment from the United States. Without action I believe this crisis will only escalate. Europe and the United States will be unable to handle the flood of people; and the long-term implications are great with the possibility of ISIS infiltrating the refugees and bringing their terrorist activities onto our shores. It is more effective, more economical, and safer to work with our partners and deal with the problem there.
      
      Mr. President, I ask you to lead the way in an alliance to provide safe zones inside Syria’s borders. I pray that God will give you His wisdom as your decisions will affect the lives of so many. God bless you.
      
      Sincerely,
      Franklin Graham
      
      I believe that is the wisest solution and most effective way of dealing with the situation. It is humanitarian.  I am indirectly involved with refugees in Northern Iraq through Samaritan's Purse 
      ( http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/133172? … ost2780182 ).
      
      I believe that Franklin and his teams can vet Syrian refugees, etc.  There are many Christians who are qualified to do that.  As a Spirit filled Christian I was vetted by a Spirit filled Pastor before I was allowed to become a member of his Faith, Hope, Love congregation.  Had I not been humble before God, I would not have passed the vetting.  Spirit filled believers have the witness of the Holy Spirit that searches the hearts of people.  God the Lord Jesus Christ looks on the hearts of people and bears witness by the Spirit.

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   5. 82

      Don Wposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Two issues: 1) which belief(s) can be identified as Christian; 2) how can it be proven that someone genuinely believes something?
      
      I am not a Christian, but for me the first issue is easy. I would define a Christian as someone who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the the son of god. "Christian" is the name originally used to distinguish those Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah, and those who did not. So that makes sense as a "hard" definition.
      
      The second issue is the showstopper. How to determine if someone genuinely holds a belief. Polygraph testing may be useful, but the reliability of such tests does not have general acceptance from the scientific community. Alternatively you could try functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). Analysis of multiple fMRI results indicates that activity in the prefrontal cortex increases when people lie(1). However, when fMRI results have been considered as part of evidence in court, there has been a very strong objection for neuroscientists because of the chances of inaccuracy. So this is not a realistic option.
      
      In short, although it's possible to identify a specific belief as being "Christian", it is currently not possible to (scientifically) determine whether someone genuinely holds that belief or not.
      
      (1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19786872

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      1. 69

         aguasilverposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         The tried and tested method of proving true faith, used in Russia before the walls came down, was for Russian soldiers to burst into underground churches and announce they were going to kill all the Christians, and tell anyone who was not a Christian to leave.
         
         When those folk had departed, they joined their brothers and sisters in a service of worship for Yeshua, knowing they were among real believers.
         
         Maybe secretly, the immigration people could do the same stunt on professing believers at the point of entry, if they were not really believers, they would not want to be killed, if they were, no problem.
         
         In the end result, true belief is to be prepared to die upholding your faith (not in the act of killing others) rather than live denying Yeshua.

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            wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Might even work...until it became apparent that the "Christians" were not killed but instead let into the states.  This should take about one episode. 
            
            After that, at least some of the groups "tested" would have to be killed.  That way it's not so apparent that the "test" is nothing but a sham.  While the story makes a nice tale, it isn't workable for any length of time at all.

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               aguasilverposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               Agreed, and was not meant as a serious test, which in any case would be a nonsense concept, as applying any religious criterion would make us as backward thinking as the people we were trying to stop infiltrating the country!
               
               Better just to stop pussyfooting around and state clearly that anybody who would not swear on oath to accept the American Constitution as their ultimate law was not welcome.
               
               Of course that would preclude most true Christians also, as they are not allowed to make an oath (let your yes be yes etc,) but most of those it would preclude are already there, and those seeking to enter now are not (currently) refugees.

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                  wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  This I can agree with.  Accept our constitution and assimilate into the culture...and no, that does not mean accepting Christianity or even leaving their culture behind them.

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                     aguasilverposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     Then we agree! (now that's a first!)

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                        wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        Hell has surely frozen solid!

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                     oceansnsunsetsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     This I can agree with.  Accept our constitution and assimilate into the culture...and no, that does not mean accepting Christianity or even leaving their culture behind them.
                     
                     I agree with you both also.  The problem begins to be that once people know what the right "answer" is, won't they give that as their answer through the translators?  Then if they do swear or promise or affirm to assimilate into our culture and abide by the US constitution, and they do NOT, then what?  How to enforce it?  Its a heart issue, character issues we are dealing with really.  When met up with what can be seen as survival or a better way of life, the mind can respond  a variety of ways that might (for the time being) contradict one's heart or character. 
                     
                     This is an incredibly hard issue on so many levels.

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                        wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        But isn't that the case with any immigrant, refugee or not?

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2. 84

   Austinstarposted 8 years ago

   Whether or not he should be president is not the question being asked. The question is, How does one prove that they are a Christian?

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   aguasilverposted 8 years ago

   Well apart from the obvious thing, having a recognised pastor or religious leader speak for them the only secure way would be to have them meet with spirit filled believers, however, that also would be liable to error, as many people who sincerely believe they are Christians and are members of churches are not spirit filled....
   
   Scripture states that only those who believe can state that Yeshua (Jesus Christ) HaMashiac is the Messiah, but even there we have problems, hence notice I named Him two different ways, Greek (modern accepted) and Hebraic.....
   
   It's a nonsense requirement, and in any case ones professed religion or lack of such should not be a consideration, were I making the entry requirements, I would select those with families, place those families with churches or community groups who could care for them, and who equally could report any activities that suggested they may be a problem to your security.
   
   Or I would house them in secure but reasonable accommodation whilst processing took place, those accepted as potentially good citizens should be fast tracked into society (with aforementioned existing support groups mentoring/caring for them) those who would make bad citizens should be accommodated securely until such time as they could be returned safely to their country of origin, or where they chose and were accepted.
   
   But first I would want to see every homeless and dispossessed citizen (veterans especially) equally rehoused and assimilated back into society, or at least provided with secure accommodation and a fresh start.
   
   Americas problems are much bigger than refugees needs.

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4. 84

   Austinstarposted 8 years ago

   Ahorseback - Proving that one is a Christian bothers me a great deal. Anyone can say they are a christian. Who can prove it?
   Didn't the Crusades and the Inquisition teach us anything? Doesn't the fact that no one can prove they are a Christian bother anyone? WHY is it unprovable?

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5. 84

   Austinstarposted 8 years ago

   colorfulone - While I agree with your sentiments and those of Franklin Graham, it still does not answer the question that I posed for this forum which is... "How does one prove that they are a Christian?"
   Thank you for your opinion on how to handle the Syrian refugees.

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      colorfuloneposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Let me ask you this before I even think of attempting to explain since you were not able to grasp the meaning of what you called my "opinion".   Are you a born-again Christian?

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6. 84

   Austinstarposted 8 years ago

   colorfulone - If I wanted to answer your question, I would go to YOUR forum question and answer it. But this is MY forum question and you are trying to deflect answering it, why?

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   1. 78

      colorfuloneposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Austinstar, I was trying to establish sort of a understanding / relationship with a person I do not know purely for discussion purposes.  I  didn't mean to cross the line by asking you a question on your thread. 
      Please, excuse me! 

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7. 84

   Austinstarposted 8 years ago

   Again, not answering the question. I don't know how to treat people that refuse to answer questions. All I can say is that if you can't or won't answer a person's questions, why post on their forum? It makes no sense.

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      psycheskinnerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      1 Answering the question implicitly validates it when it is invalid
      2 There is no way

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8. 84

   Austinstarposted 8 years ago

   Ok, perhaps I can rephrase the question:
   What are the specific traits of a "Christian". (perhaps you could compare and contrast these traits with other religions)

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      psycheskinnerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Depending on the exact church it is a stated belief in certain things, the exact nature and number varies, like that Jesus is the son of God.
      
      Of course people can lie.  One cannot make windows into men's souls.

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   calculus-geometryposted 8 years ago

   Just put yourself in his head for a moment. Super duper devout Muslims would probably not lie and say they are Christian, and these are the people Jeb means to exclude in the first place, so he would get the outcome he wants.  He does not really care about Syrian atheists, agnostics, people who are only culturally Muslim, and casual dabblers in religion -- people who would have no qualms about putting on a show of being Christian in order to get out.

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      colorfuloneposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I believe you a right-on.  A devout Muslim would not lie and denounce Islam for fear of being crucified by their own people. 
      
      This is a great example, a Muslim student challenged a Jewish professor in Britain. She was no competition for him.  (about 3 minutes)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yGN8SlIEZ8

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10. 78

    colorfuloneposted 8 years ago

    The 5 wealthiest Muslim countries on the Arabian Peninsula must have Islamophobia, because they refuse to take in Syrian refugees for fear of a terrorist getting in.  Hmm, ya' think they know something they aren't telling us?

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       Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Probably that they lack compassion for their fellow man.

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          colorfuloneposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          No, I don't think so m'dear.  What I think is that the Syrian refugees is a Trojan Horse that those 5 richest Muslim countries have trained to hate and kill since they were children. That, they are helping to fund the Muslim terrorists through-out the world and they want to send 10,000 here.

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             Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

             I suppose you think this little boy was a trained terrorist? Colorful way of looking at things.
             
             
             
             It's one thing to have fears. I think yours are, to some extent, valid. It is another to make innocents suffer because of our fears.

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                aguasilverposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                The people who made this little innocent suffer have been shown to be his father, who apparently was involved in people smuggling, and who left a secure job and home in Turkey (where they were in no danger) to try and gain access to Europe, for whatever reason.
                
                Leaving Syria to escape death I understand, travelling through several countries (including one where you have been offered refuge and have a home and employment) to reach your country of choice, I find unacceptable.
                
                Putting your child at risk I find reprehensible, re-positioning the child's body for a better photo opportunity and more propaganda I find abhorrent
                
                Perhaps when the real war starts, the liberals will shut up, but probably only because they will have hidden themselves safely away from the fighting.

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                   Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                   From what I can discern; the truth appears to be that the child was of Syrian parents who were attempting to immigrate to Canada, to remove their children from the war torn town of Kobani. He was one of 12 who died on that boat.
                   
                   I think I find a conservative with no compassion as difficult to understand as a bleeding heart liberal. Although, I suppose when it is possible to make up stories to hide from the horror of such tragedy that could be averted if we just all cared about our fellow man it is easy to be seen as not possessing the capacity to care.

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                      aguasilverposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                      They turned up in Europe, the case was well investigated here, and what I stated was the official reason why this child died.
                      
                      Using his death for political propaganda is sick.
                      
                      I have compassion, certainly enough to wish that these people would not expose children to death for personal gain.
                      
                      There is an invasion being carried out, it will probably not affect me, I live in Spain, in the countryside and away from major towns, but there is an invasion, hidden behind a 'plea for compassion' and like it or not, nobody needs to flee from Syria to Canada or Europe when Turkey (where Muslims are welcomed and where its a semi Islamic state) has offered them refuge and assistance.
                      
                      WHY ARE THEY LEAVING?

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                         Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                         I can find nothing to corroborate your claim that the child and his family were living in Turkey.
                         
                         I honestly am sorry that there are those in this world without the ability to care for people, simply because they are fellow human beings. Those who use labels in order not to have compassion for others are as much a part of the problem as those who are causing the refugee crisis. Hatred is hatred. Whether you resort to violence to share it or not it still causes harm to innocents who don't deserve to be treated so callously.

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                            aguasilverposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                            Then you did not look very hard.... but in any case...... why was he leaving a safe haven (Turkey) where he had asylum, a job and a home?
                            
                            Is nobody responsible for their own errors in today's world?
                            
                            http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news … le-6426179
                            
                            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world … 98798.html
                            
                            http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expres … ylan-Kurdi
                            
                            Shall I need to continue exposing this sham, showing this mock outrage for what it is, a contemptuous attempt at hiding what is really happening.
                            
                            Islam has shown many times that it holds no regard for Muslim lives, they will allow as many as it takes to die or be killed if it helps their twisted ideology gain territory.
                            
                            Yes it is tragic that lives are lost, but identify and point your finger at those responsible, not at those who identify the problem and the culprits.
                            
                            This family had lived in Turkey for three years, before they decided to try and illegally move to Europe.
                            
                            Yes I understand people want a better life, and see Europe or North America as a better choice, but the ONLY way that works is if the whole northern hemisphere agree to allow the whole southern hemisphere to live with us.
                            
                            If you agree with that, then invite an emigre family to live with you, but do not expect others to do the same, until you can demonstrate what a blessing to you that has been.

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                               Live to Learnposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                               Two of those links are tabloids. Rather unreliable. But, none of them say that he was a smuggler. There has been an accusation. He has expressed denial. No smoking gun that I could find.
                               
                               I'll reiterate. A lack of love for one's fellow man is a sad thing to witness. Especially when one is willing to throw out accusations without the benefit of proof; simply, it appears, to allow oneself to pretend that one cares.

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                               1. 69

                                  aguasilverposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                  Last time I shall bother trying to open a closed mind.
                                  
                                  The accusations were made by two independent witnesses who were present for the tragedy, one of whom also lost children.
                                  
                                  No retractions have been made.
                                  
                                  Three newspapers, tabloid or otherwise, would be liable for substantial libel fees if they were proven wrong.
                                  
                                  It can reliably be shown that some pompous human right group would sue their asses off if they could get a case going against them, and our poor refugee would be looking at retiring on the proceeds.
                                  
                                  You keep trying to paint any opposition to the truth as some sort of lack of compassion, when in fact I am trying to stop further senseless and selfish acts which kill innocents by pointing out the real reason his children were killed.
                                  
                                  He is another illegal immigrant who is NOT fleeing from danger, he was trying to get a better economic life by deception and lost his children, because he cared more about his comforts than their lives.
                                  
                                  If you want to anchorage that behavior, go buy a mirror and see who is causing senseless deaths by their condoning illegal behavior.

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