Let's Speak ON THIS

1. 84

   gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago

   
   Do you believe that everyone is entitled to rights or do you strongly contend that rights must be earned?  State your position?

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   1. 76

      Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Both
      
      Most people are like robot Zombies from the covid world order, right now. Since the constitution is treated like it is dead by programed powers to be. I have to be like an unvaccined King Kong who bows to no one to survive this beyond Insanity. Many countries are lifting their covid restrictions and living with it. That what I am holding out for and for normal human rights to return to normal.

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   2. 78

      Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      I believe in unalienable rights. The right to act to defend oneself; the right to own private property; the right to pursue work of choice, and enjoy the fruits of labor; the right to be free to move about the world freely; the right freely to worship, and to chosen religion freely; the right to be secure in one's home, and the right to protect ones home; and the most important in my view -- the right to think freely, and freedom of speech.
      
      I feel all are entitled to inalienable rights, they need not be earned.

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      1. 95

         wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         While I applaud the thought, that list is hardly inalienable.  Only one - the right to think freely (but keep quiet about your thoughts) - is universal.  All of the others are forbidden (often on pain of death) in some places and some are not allowed in even the US.

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         1. 78

            Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            I see your point and share it, it's factual. I was taking a shot at literally answering the context  of the question  - "Do you BELIEVE that everyone is ENTITLED  to rights or do you strongly contend that rights must be earned?"   I found myself too early in the conversation to "go deep"...
            
            However, I believe in the concept that humans are entitled to inalienable rights. Hey, if the question was --- do we actually have inevitable rights?  I would have just said ---  We as humans, truly have few rights.
               
            It is clear my wish list is sadly naive.
            
            Funny, all and all,  it did not take us long here in a rather young country to mess up a good thing.  So, can you suggest a country one could migrate to?  Laughing

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         2. 89

            GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            I don't see the ability to "think freely" as a Right. I think it is an just an ability. How does it fit the description of a Right? Hell, concerning that, what is the commonly accepted definition of a Right?
            
            GA

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   3. 60

      CHRIS57posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Before we start a discussion about entitled rights, shouldn´t we first understand that all human rights conflict with each other?
      
      This is why we have justice systems in our civilizations. Because on the personal level any universal right creates conflicts.
      
      A constitutions is a good starter for entitled, unalienable rights. So - yes - human rights are unalienable.
      
      But no constitution is perfect. And some constitutions even invite for conflicts on the personal level (me think the US-constitution is one of these). For example I would say this is why it is more profitable in the US to become a lawyer than an engineer (same level of academic achievement necessary).
      
      I would put one unalienable right on top of all: The right for personal dignity. This rules all: Your right for free speech ends, where insults of opponents start. Personal dignity should never be tampered with.
      
      The US constitution does not know this right (dignity), so it allows something like the US prison system. US incarceration is 4 times as high in numbers as people in Chinese labor camps in Tibet.
      
      Do we understand, what unalienable, fundamental human rights are? These are rights that can not be taken away, not even from your opponents, your enemies. And of course, they can not and need not be earned.

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      1. 89

         GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I don't think there is any Right that cannot be taken away. So there are no "inalienable" Rights. Noone can give Rights. The only Rights you can have are the ones you can defend.
         
         GA

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         1. 60

            CHRIS57posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            May be i missed the point. I thought this discussion was about whether rights must be earned or not, not to be defended or not.
            
            Of course rights must be defendable. This is what in a civilization laws, legislation, a constitution are good for.
            
            I understood the question this way: Are we all born with all rights or do we have to earn the rights on our way through life?  My answer: we are born with all rights. Having said this, the set of human rights may be defined differently in other countries and systems.

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            1. 89

               GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               I should have posted a general reply rather than tagging it as a response to your comment. My bad Chris57. I am being a bit of a contrarian when it comes to using "inalienable" as a conditioner in discussions of Rights.
               
               Who says any Rights can't be taken, (or given), away?  Who is the authority that holds the power to declare them inalienable? I am not being factitious. As many have noted, for some it is the government, for others it would be God, and others yet—their god.
               
               I am not picking at the choice, and common acceptance, of using the word to convey a message, but I think that word choice, (used by anyone, many, and not you specifically), is wrong, or at the least, misleading, (even if unintentional).
               
               Consider this perspective. A lone hermit on the mountain is the start of our march to today's urban density, and our march from almost unlimited `inalienable' Rights, (excepting one), to the frequently mentioned, (and defended), half-dozen, or so of today. If all those other lost inalienable Rights lost that status, who took it?
               
               So, can man give something he doesn't own, or take something he has given? Nope, and of course. Many Rights can be given and all can be taken away. In the end, the answer is simply a social contract. How can that be inalienable?
               
               *shrug, it's just a thought. Obviously, I am in the Rights have to be earned/defended camp. ;-)
               
               GA

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         2. 84

            gmwilliamsposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            GREAT ANSWER.

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   4. 89

      Kyler J Falkposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      No, not everyone is entitled to all rights, though certain unalienable rights are offered from birth. The law of nature offers you the right to seek life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, while the law of the land grants you a plethora of rights assuming you adhere to those laws. Under the laws of the land, laws that came forth by way of our response to nature, not everyone should be allowed all of their rights lest others lose their rights due to those who can't handle them to begin with.

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      1. 84

         gmwilliamsposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         AMEN, A+ RESPONSE.

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      2. 78

         Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Realistically you have summed it up so well...

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      3. 76

         Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         +

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   5. 83

      tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      After reading the thread I have a mix of both thoughts and feelings about it. So, first I ask is having thoughts a right. And, what about my feelings? Do I have a right to those? Are those earned or are they gifts. So, I am kinda' saying it matters perhaps how deep one wants to dig. No matter for me a right earned or gifted comes from an authority. Even the natural right to life (For instance to breathe at birth) comes from an authority such as God or god(s) or science. So, unless we can get an answer from that authority we are left with our belief(s) until, perhaps, some enlightenment.  Then round, round, and round we go . . . As for me at this time it is some are earned and some are gifted.

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      1. 78

         Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         The question was very clear straight forward. However, really made one thing about the vast subject of rights.
         
         "Do you believe that everyone is entitled to rights or do you strongly contend that rights must be earned? "
         
         To be straight forward one would need to answer yes or no.
         So, I would think many would answer yes to the first part of the question,   it gets tricky when answering if rights should be earned.
         
         I believe in unalienable rights cannot be given away or taken away. Due to being derived from thoughts and feelings. They are rights that a given individual feels are just and fair to live by. Derived out of common sense, fairness, and decency.  They are an innate belief.
         
         Yes, man can be controlled by the laws of the land. But thoughts, beliefs, and feelings are harder to control.   
         
         Example --- Right to choose a religion. One could be forbidden to practice their religion. Yet, one could follow their religion to some extent through thought, and practicing the values of that religion.  On the other hand, can he defend his home?  He feels he has the right, but the law may say differently. But, does that restraint stop him from feeling it a right? No
         
         But in reality, that right is not a true right. In the end --- he has the right to his thoughts, his beliefs. No one can take that right.
         
         It would be true to say if one lives today, in essence, rights are earned. One learns to live with the laws of the land. If one accomplishes this, they have the right to survive without too much problem. But the right to think to develop thoughts is a right that can't be taken as a rule.  In my first comment on the thread, I offered a list of my very thoughts on unalienable rights. Thoughts, nowhere are they in stone.      Are they attainable in today's world, maybe to some extent?  Are they realistic, not as it stands today...  But they are something to strive towards, to believe in.

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         1. 83

            tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Interesting! Thanks for the food for thought. When I first read the question being somewhat of a skeptic I said “Aha! Beware! It is an either/or question”. What about a third option? At that time my passing thought was let’s see what others think.
            
            Then reading the thread I saw a few more options introduced such as constitutional, unalienable, human, defendable, and so forth. Most are in my mind reasonable alternative options. So, yes, in my view a third option is true. In my post I put my two cents in with my third option – gifted while accepting earned.
            
            Like you said rights is a vast subject.

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            1. 89

               GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Still being the contrarian, and harping on the "inalienable" conditioner of the OP, (I consider no Rights to be inalienable), who does the gifting of these Rights?
               
               GA

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               1. 83

                  tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Good thought. I can understand your position on inalienable rights. If you go back to my initial post I stated, “No matter for me a right earned or gifted comes from an authority”. For me that is synonymous with a power.
                  
                  For example as I see it now my civil rights as a U.S. natural born citizen are bestowed upon me at birth by the Constitution (a power). I did not have to earn them. Thus they are gifted. Maybe I got that wrong, yet I will leave it at that . . . for now.

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                  1. 78

                     Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     I believe your first comment got to the point of the questions.  I think being born in the US you are given many inevitable rights due to the Constitution that we are governed by.  At that point, they are given,  one does not earn these rights the Government law provides them.  One becomes to believe in them, they are instilled in our thoughts.
                     
                     It is clear like no other time before, these rights over time are deteriorating, being taken away, and can not be earned back. But, one still may hold these rights as relevant beliefs.  These beliefs can not be taken away, they are instilled. So what I am left with is a two-edged sword in regards to the posed questions. 
                     
                     One thing for sure this thread made me realize how so many rights I enjoyed earlier in my life are gone with the wind... Rights I took for granted.

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                     1. 83

                        tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        I go along with what you are expressing, Sharlee. The question does spawn pondering. I created a new file on my PC to research rights for another time.
                        
                        With humor I remember the many, many times with siblings and also with parents proclaiming it is my right to/for this or that. I am talking beginning around what . . . six or so years of age. Where in the heck did I learn the concept of rights at that age?  Seems it soon followed “It’s mine”.

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                  2. 89

                     GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     I think you got it right, with one exception. And in that context. I like your term "gifted." But the moment you become a decision-making person they, (Rights), are no longer a gift, they become a loan. From that point, one has to earn/defend those "gifted" Rights by obeying the rules of their society.
                     
                     *So they are still not "inalienable," damn it! :-o
                     
                     [EDIT]
                     *Double damn. Why did I just think I needed to be clear that that was a joke. Hmm . . weird.
                     
                     GA

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                     1. 83

                        tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        Interesting! So, gifted rights are transitional as it relates to responsibility? I think conditional can be introduced to as seen with religion and prayer in schools, which to me is a slippery slope. Maybe that falls in line with what you are saying. 
                        
                        As far as inalienable rights go I think that is an American thing with its history with our founders more than world. The world is more into Human Rights where from a cursory poking about relate it to inherent.

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      2. 76

         Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         you have rights based upon your acknowledgment of them.
         I have rights, therefore I do.

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2. 78

   Credence2posted 2 years ago

   When one reads the Constitution, it speaks of inalienable rights;  life, liberty and property.
   
   Bill of Rights:
   
   Right to jury trial of ones peers
   
   Right to a speedy trial, accused cannot be held indefinitely without trial.
   
   All citizens over 18 have the right to vote with rare and clearly delineated exceptions.
   
   Right to freedom of speech, peaceable assembly, religion
   
   Right to bear arms.
   
   These are just a few of the Rights that are part of citizenship and I don't have to EARN anything.
   
   How could you suggest anything to the contrary?
   
   Seems to me that you need a stiff refresher in American law and civics.

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   1. 76

      Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Certainly too many laws granted to benefiting corporatiomisn of a place of special rights or immunities, especially in the form of a franchise or monopoly of state and banksters.
      
      The people don't have rights the have privelleges granted by our owners. They don't have rights they have owner. A slave gene pass down from 1000s of years ongoing. People are born anarchist than go to indoctrination camps for 12 years then programed for the rest of their lives. Lucky I didn't get the slave gene, I was always disobedience to unreasonable authotritians like the covid vaccines.

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      1. 78

         Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         It is always true that the ideal and reality are often times far apart. But without holding these ideals as a lamp to our feet, we most assuredly would fall into the morass of total authoritarianism and tyranny.
         
         It all starts with the idea that "rights" in a democracy has to be earned. That is why there must be a fight to prevent a retrenchment from this ideal. 
         
         The idea of basic human rights having to be earned is beginning of the slippery slope, where one has none at all. So, the forces of reaction cannot be allowed any "wiggle room".
         
         I will not acquiesce in the face of this situation even as many of the points you make are quite valid.

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         1. 95

            wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            And yet we plainly DO have to "earn" most rights.  We have a right to liberty, for instance...as long as we earn the right and commit no crimes.  We have a right to free speech (in this country)...as long as that speech does not stray into forbidden topics; we "earn" the right by staying out of those topics.

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            1. 76

               Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Now for an American song
               
               What would you do
               If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom
               What would you do
               If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice
               
               Would you think about all them people
               Who gave up everything they had
               Would you think about all them War Vets
               And would you start to feel bad
               
               Freedom isn't free
               It costs folks like you and me
               And if we don't all chip in
               We'll never pay that bill
               
               Freedom isn't free
               No, there's a hefty fu_kin' fee
               And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
               Who will?
               
               What would you do
               If someone told you to fight for freedom
               Would you answer the call
               Or run away like a little pussy
               
               'Cause the only reason that you're here
               Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
               So maybe now it's your turn
               To die kicking some ass
               
               Freedom isn't free
               It costs folks like you and me
               And if we don't all chip in
               We'll never pay that bill
               
               Freedom isn't free
               No, there's a hefty fu_kin' fee
               And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
               Who will?
               You don't throw in your buck 'o five
               Who will?
               
               Oo, buck 'o five
               Freedom costs a buck 'o five

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            2. 78

               Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               I understand your point.
               
               I have to stand corrected as inalienable rights cannot be transferred or denied, taken away. And that is not true. Through due process of law, one can lose inalienable rights. I may take issue with the concern of Earn, since these rights are bestowed upon me at birth. But, also they are mine to lose only under clearly delineated due process of law.
               
               No one is keeping anyone from saying what they want and that should be protected by law, but that does not mean that you are not held accountable for what you do say.

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               1. 95

                  wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Never forget, too, that our rights are given by a government or other group of people.  They are not bestowed by some magical force of nature.
                  
                  Because of that, we find different "inalienable rights" in different parts of the world.  If one is not a seasoned traveler that's easy to forget.

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                  1. 78

                     Credence2posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     I cannot take issue with that assessment, Wilderness.

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3. 76

   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   Humans of sound mind and body are entitled to certain rights due to the human ability to guide one's own will, once they have reached adulthood. Since every human has the ability to guide his own will, this ability must be respected.
   
   Strangely, it comes down to respect
   and love.

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4. 76

   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   Those who give up their rights by allowing others to walk all over them, by laying down like door mats and by not fighting for their rights are usually just too nice. In the fourteenth century,  the word "nice" meant ignorant
   
     ... as in stupid.

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5. 76

   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   Those who acknowledge the strength and power of their own wills, should also acknowledge the strength and power of others. All are equal to anyone else as far as the freedom to obtain and achieve what one wants and needs. We do need to exercise the gifts of intelligence, wisdom and self-guided free will that every human possesses.
   
   Human abilities/rights are protected by laws of justice. Justice is that which protects us from the disrespectful and harmful actions of others: or trespasses.

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   1. 76

      Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      We have a lot of trespassing going on at the border. What good are laws if they are not followed?

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