Enter At Your Own Risk?

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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Self awareness is only in humans.

If it wasn't....your dog or cat would be speaking the same language as you.
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wait - I was on my way out but I have to take a shot at this.
  
  Capacity for language and communication is not the same as self awareness.
  
  Some animals are capable of recognizing themselves in a mirror. This proves self awareness.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, it is not them they see. It appears that way. It is because they think they see another of their own kind, which is instinctive.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Did you know that when most people look in the mirror it is not really themselves they see?
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  Colebabieposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand your reason for pursing this argument. I understand that it is probably just genetic pathways that determine how a plant knows when to flower, how it can sense whether an intruder is friend or foe and then decide what to do, etc. sure. But as far as arguing whether or not plants/animals are conscious and have a conscience, yeah I don't care.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not even all humans speak the same language but some language is universal. They do understand and they are self aware otherwise they would be jumping off roof tops delightfully unaware that it could hurt. lol
  
  And they do know right from wrong, if they didn't they wouldn't cower or hide when they do something they knew they shouldn't have done.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Self-responsibility is a wonderful thing.
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wyanjenposted 14 years ago
Plants are not self aware because they do not possess the physical nervous system that would allow them to be.
Trees grow because they are alive.
Rhinos do not understand morality but they get pretty damn pissed off when they are jealous.

There is no precise line here. Each organism has evolved differently but that does not mean that no organisms share characteristics.

This includes intelligence and emotion. If you have the right kind of brain, you get the prize.

(See, this forum did turn from several topics into one! )

I'm gone, later gaters
Jen
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Good night Jen.

Take care and I'll talk to you again sometime.

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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Take it easy Ray. Thanks for the "fight"
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
The only reason Mankind became conscious or gained consciousness, was because of the complexity of society, as it grew.

Research has shown many, Julian Jaynes - The Origins of the Bicameral Mind shows that mankind ability evolved into consciousness from automatic Nature guidance.

It explains that mankind was guided by Nature, just like animals, before society grew so large.

The development of a primitive language, known as the 'metaphor' was created. This began the process of mankind's consciousness. The develop of this key tool, brought on mankind's step into human consciousness, because each person could differentiate their own existence, unlike being guided by nature's guidance.

That is precisely where human consciousness started. Also, to understand a little better- his research includes science's stage, philosophy stage and what had been learned about how the brain works.

To be specific- humans have a two-chamber, must larger brain, than animals. Evolution to human consciousness from nature's control was only a matter of time.

When humans were at this stage. They before-hand did everything by using the right-part of the brain, which worked off hallucinatory audio/video projections, so humans would live, like animals do. Humans were driven by these images, which why religion/spiritual leaders had control. They enslaved humans for their own pleasures and dishonesty activity.

Some were conscious already, but controlling those who weren't.

He goes on to explain it in detail. But you get the point.

Nature was guiding humans through projecting images from the right to the left, so each could live, until consciousness.

What made humans or where did they come from or evolve from isn't part of Julian Jaynes' work. Just as described above, much shorter terms.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Anyone who practices any religion whatsoever is not a self-responsible person.

Self-responsibility is to have FULL control of your life.

This means YOU are to take care of yourself FIRST.

And, every religion, no matter where- says, "GOD, before self".

You can never have FULL control of your own life IF you put someone before you.

If you cannot live by your own conscience- and have to be told how to live?

How is that SELF-Responsible?

Anyone can jump in?
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Sorry about that. But, it just came to mind.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I was sitting here thinking about something to talk about and it subject came on self-responsibility.

It really lack in the world today, as a whole.

Doesn't it?

You've seen it. All over the place, everytime some cuts you off. Or people who steal things? Or rights violations?

Politicians lack self-responsibility- because most are not honest. They just want in office. They even lie to get in.

You see it everytime you see a homeless person in the street.

Or a killing in the streets.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Here is another one?

How about this?

I was in a politics forum the other day. I'm watching everyone complaining about this and screaming about that. Each are going at each other, disagreeing, bickering and bantering about what has to be done and what needs to be changed.

I was amazed at the stupidity in the forum. And, I decided to say something and did. Apparently, I cleared out the forum. No one said anything afterward. It was like that for about 1 hour, I think.

And, here is what I said- While each was going back forth, I injected with-

Yes, there is a problem in the U.S., but the problem is what people might think.

The problems presently plaguing U.S. - the Economy, which seems to be making progress a little.

What caused the Economic downturn, recessionary period, was being argued-

Yes-

Corporate Irresponsibility!
Consumer Irresponsibility!
Government Irresponsibility!

If they realize- this accounts for every single American citizen. Everyone is at fault!

That is the spin from Washington D.C.

Now- realize- IF you were not irresponsible in any manner, during the last 10 years - YOU are still at fault?

Do you believe that?

Now- realize- voters(citizens- YOU) voted for a politician who you know is going into an office- that is being strangled by business- and expect him to do as you ask?

Business has been running Congress for well OVER 50 years, that's longer than my lifetime so far.

Where is citizen protection against business activites or bad practices?

Remember- Government Irresponsibility did play a part. When do we(citizens of the United States) say "ENOUGH is ENOUGH!

I don't vote. I have never voted.

Some of you will say, then I have no right to complain.

And, my answer to you- YES I DO- I'm being responsible, as a citizen of the United States of America, and I am doing what I think is in the best interest of the Nation-

I haven't found a politician YET - that got my vote, and none of them deserved my vote.

I will vote when I believe in candidate. I will not compromise my power of voting if I don't believe in the individual.

If I think that he isn't going to do the job properly or be for the citizens- he/she doesn't get it.

I'm not the type to vote for the lessor of two evils?

You can weigh in on this too?
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  Sue Adamsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Could you perhaps keep your posts a little shorter please?
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
I can't say that I've done that.

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quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago
Are you in the Matrix ?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Funny.
  
  Was a great movie tho.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Sure Sue, I can.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
I wasn't even on.

I went to watch a movie.

Decided to check on what's happening here?
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
I wanted to have a civilized conversation without the childish rants.

If you have a problem with that, then I would suggest you grow up and be a responsible adult.

If you can't sit in a forum, and not insult someone, then I would suggest again, you grow up.

Your tone is petty, to say the least.

My tone, comes from being 41 year old. And, if you can't handle that, then I suggest your grow up.

And, if you can't take my words, then don't associate with me.

I speak from my mind and heart, in one swoop. I don't pull punches.

If you haven't noticed, in the 4 weeks I've been here, I am all over the forums. And, if you had read my hub, or profile.

Then you would understand why?

Now- are you here to talk to me? or simply be a child?

As, I stated above- I want to get to know people. Understanding what people feel and belief is important to CAGSIL my company.

So, what next?
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Jackson Riddleposted 14 years ago
I'm not going to throw low blows at you because I do agree with some of things you say. On the main precedence that you think that you are better than everyone because you are is what I am annoyed about.

I am all for non-childish discussions in forums, that is why I choose to participate, but when someone comes along and acts as if they are better than others is what I don't agree with.

I viewed this thread to paticipate and my first post was entirly due to your outlandish comments in your original posts which I felt were unsubstantiated.

Rereading your response to my threat I believe you are being hypocritical. Not once did I directly insult you yet you say I am Futhermore you then tell me to

So I am here to not be a child, rather question you to discover the meaning behind your egocentric posts.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And, see ...you don't think you did anything wrong?
  
  I find that interesting, because of the way you broke my message down, and are now trying to make me look like I did something wrong.
  
  Nice try. The fact that you are younger, simply proved my point for the statement in which I posted. The pure and simple fact that you are immature.
  
  And, yes I realize right now, how it is in appearance. But, then again- my post specifically said no childish behavior. Insinuating that you would act like a child, you took offense.
  
  Yes, understood- but do you realize WHY? you took offense to it?
  
  Probably not. That is okay.
  
  The fact IS that the forums come across with banter and childish B.S. and I wanted to fore-warn people. And, those who didn't want to listen or respect me, by carrying on a civilized conversation(which seems to be TOO MUCH to ask).
  
  If you can't understand that. I'm sorry.
  
  Civility is always proper, when talking to adults. If two adults cannot sit down and have a civilized conversation about anything?
  
  How the hell are they ever going to get to know one another?
  
  Now, again- you see it as hypocritical- but it's not.
  
  And, hence the topic- ENTER AT YOUR RISK?
  
  I don't have the time or the inclination to deal with you. The problem going on around ME here in the United States are getting out of control.
  
  And, IF nothing is done about it, it's going to CRASH into a brick wall.
  
  Do I think ONE MAN can make a difference. You better believe it!
  
  And, NO! I don't think I am better than you or even more educated than you- but, when I want to get to know someone- it is required to be civilized.
  
  If you don't want to talk to me. That is your choice. The forum is free to all, to come and go as they please.
  
  I love talking to people. Again, I understand where you are coming from. But, now you know where I stand.
  
  If I said something that was unsubstantiated- please bring it forward and I will see what I can do.
  
  If not, what next?
  
  Are going to be civilized? Or not?
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Sexy jontyposted 14 years ago
Very risky forum ..... so I am leaving ..... hehehehehe
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Jackson Riddleposted 14 years ago
Here I would like to say 'Ok' and leave it at that. Unfortunatly I cannot. Post by post it seems that you have identified me as some sort of threat to this thread (let alone society), which I am not.

I know where you are coming from too but you don't see where I am coming from I do not believe. You have failed to except that you have blatantly placed yourself upon a mantle above everyone else on a false precedence that you are a veteran of life and therefore should be respected.

This is what annoys me.

I then bring this to your attention and you begin to berate me. Blinded by your own ambition to make changes in this world (which I don't mind) you choose to command authority simply because you feel that you think you should have it.

So, I will leave this alone when you explain to me why you are better than everyone else.

So please, enlighten me.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't identify you as a threat- You are not. I've seen some of the things you post and some of your views or outlooks about life. Trust me, you are not impressive by any stretch of the imagination.
  
  A threat no. An ass yes. Immature, yes. Ignorant- Yes. This is not attack- it's simply the truth I've come to learn about you in the 4 weeks I've been around.
  
  Good be annoyed. I have no false precedence that I am a veteran of life. I am sorry, that your family didn't teach you to be respectful the older/elder people when you are talking to them. Then again I'm sorry for you. My mom and father taught me to always respect those who are older/elder, especially when it comes to conversations. The older people have the information that younger people SHOULD want and therefore the respectfulness is to be applied when talking to them.
  
  I DO understand your position- but your position is not from strength, it is from a weakened defensive place.
  
  Your first actions- complain about what I posted in the main post. This action- suggest childish. Your rant was childish.
  
  You could have simply said that you were here earlier and wanted to clarify on something that was said. There was NO NEED to get into this particular conversation. It wasn't absolutely necessary, since civilized chat or conversation needs to be one-on-one and rational.
  
  Your actions were irrational. They were the actions of a childish EGO in an adult's body. Learn Self-reponsibility, it will go a long way for you.
  
  If you can not see how - we(YOU AND I) got to where we are right now....then obviously you haven't had your eyes open.
  
  I don't think I should have say anything. To CHANGE the world, per se, is to get you to understand. Things you don't realize are not as they appear and/or made to be disguise as something else.
  
  If you don't have my views. Then, that is fine. But, please do not tell me what I think, by your subjective thought process. As for berated of you- do you have a problem with being nice people? If you do- then I suggest you re-think or re-evaluate your way of thinking.
  
  This entire argument could have been prevented- had YOU not said anything. But, you seem to enjoy conflict, which is an underlying problem. If you enjoy conflict so much, then I can only come to the conclusion that you enjoyed this conflict, not so much, because you lost. I know how difficult humility can be and the humbling effects it has. Been there, done that.
  
  I do how ever, see you and I on equal footing. You are a human, at least I am giving you credit for that. You have a mind, which I have yet to determine, whether or not, you can use it rationally and on your own. I doubt it, but again I give you the benefit of the doubt.
  
  Enlighten you? I see a picture of you- siting in your chair(at the time you wrote "So please, enlighten me.") and with your arms crossed with an angry look upon your face. Obviously it vaguely looks like the picture on your profile.
  
  How ever, you feel as if you've been insulted and this whole time I have not insulted you, but simply said the truth of the matter, as it played out.
  
  Now, if you care to come at me with questions? That's fine, but sit there and expect me to enlighten YOU of all people is to expect that I could walk outside and have a conversation with a tree? Which, by the way, could in some places- get you put away for life. People talking to trees? Hmm...
  
  And, the funniest part about this whole thing- YOU don't think you didn't anything wrong? As, for me not responding- I had been in this forum for 3-6 hours talking to people about everything and I was tired, when we started our bantering. And, I wanted to go to bed- so I did.
  
  It wasn't because I didn't have anything to say, quite the contrary- as you can see from above. I just didn't see a need to continue a conversation with you.
  
  And, you know what- I still don't.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
It is a reflection of one's self. Yes.

Thank you.

I'm going to bed.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nite. It's the physical carcass but it's not the self. There is self - what you think you are, and there is Self a State of pure being, or is-ness, devoid of the sense of individuality. Two different meanings. The term Self (capital S) comes from the Upanishads of Hindu philosophy. And Self by the way is a state of consciousness achieved when void of the influence of the Soul. What is required is a total discernment of what consciousness is. We mere mortal humans suck at this! It's way beyond knowing when to kill or not, it's way beyond the rational mind spoken about here.
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  Jackson Riddleposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because you can't think of a response to my questions?
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
Dang! I guess I missed a whole lotta shakin' goin' on! Some pretty fascinating topics and views being displayed here. Wow. Makes my views seem lame. But, seriously, thanks everyone; looks like Cagsil has opened up an interesting forum here.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Denno,
  
  How are you today?
  
  Well, I like to have normal civilized conversations. To me, it is the only way to get to understand people, because they are not going to talk to you if you disrespect them or act like a child.
  
  The rant about [Jackson Riddle] is from a stand that he could have asked a question, without insinuating that I had done something wrong. The fact that I - in my post said "no childish behavior". And, what he doesn't realize is that only a child would take offense.
  
  It wasn't direct AT him. It was a generalize statement for civil conversation to be pursued. He took it as an attack, the second he opened the forum, which is another reason why I put the topic "Enter At Your Own Risk?". To fore-warn people. My opening statement was ground work for "HOW" I wanted this thread to go, considering I am the one who made it.
  
  I wasn't here to display myself- but to get information, insight and knowledge from others. And, to do that- I MUST be able to have a civlized conversation with each of them.
  
  No attacks or insults. If you believe something that is your choice. Why? you believe it what interests me. How you come to believe what you believe it what interests me.
  
  So, with that said- what would you like to talk about?
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
Wow! Cags, really. I thought this was supposed to be a civilized conversation. Please don't lecture me, I'm older than you, I might get insulted ;p
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  cute.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, Thank you (Bows)
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Colebabieposted 14 years ago
Whoa guys. Chill out! It's not that serious.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's alright Cole, this is where the fun happens.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually Colebabie, it is that serious. I prefer to talk to people like you and many others, who want to and respect people in general.
  
  This is a missing element in society, as a whole. Many people simply jump on anything that seems like an attack, even if it wasn't.
  
  Irrational thoughts are what gets the best of most and leads them to believing that they are right, when in fact that they are wrong.
  
  This one simple discussion, between you and I, can be worth something- as long as we are civilized to one another. If not, then what could can come of the conversation?
  
  No one would learn anything. Much less anything else.
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
First off: Good Morning to you, Cagsil. (That's my favorite courtesy of civilized behavior)
Well, is this study of people and their world-views to further your own world-view, add to it, or acquired to enhance your dealings with others?
I'm fine by the way, how are you?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am doing well, thank you for asking.
  
  Well, to be completely honest- My intention is a little bit of both- I want to enhance my own knowledge and understanding of people, their individual beliefs and opinions on various topics.
  
  How ever, my concern is more or less based on America, because that is where I see a huge problem. The World-view is even bigger, but has to be attacked and/or confronted differently.
  
  I have no problem with many people here, but I've come to learn that many are reactionary before thoughts begin, which leads them to either making false accusations or irrational arguments on false information.
  
  People in general, are scary people, because they do not think before they act. The question then becomes WHY? To answer: is to understand people- and their way of thinking.
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
Well, that will get you only so far. Even 'rational' people are prone to erratic behavior. To understand what motivates a single Human as compared to that of the species as a whole, is a daunting task, to say the least. People are interesting; that's for sure, but, I believe, it is better to just go along for the ride than to try to get on another's 'wavelength' so to speak.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I can understand your view. I agree with some of it, but I'm looking at the extinction of the human race- which means that my life will end because of other people irrational, irresponsible actions.
  
  That I find unacceptable. Yes, I know, that sounds ridiculous, but that's the way I see it coming. In the United States if not fixed, WILL see another Civil War. It's coming. If things do not change.
  
  Yes, it is a daunting task, but one I set before me on a limited level, so as start small- each person one on one. How ever, with that said- there are more than one person in the forum, so my message is being seen by more than one person.
  
  The impact that has is subjective, because the way people perceive things or view them, according to what they believe. I cannot change your view, only you can do that, but what I can do is try to make you realize there is more than just you and your life on the planet or in our country.
  
  There isn't a problem with an individual thinking or believing what they want, but understanding how you arrived at your belief or 'way' of thinking is extremely important.
  
  The lack of 'self-responsibility' among the human race, and the fact that most have no 'shame', per se, is absolutely ludicris.
  
  If I can rationally explain "how" you or other are not being 'self-responsible', then there is a good chance that I can make some impact on their life. The possibility is there, because anything is possible.
  
  I understand the human 'potential'. It is that potential, I see in myself- therefore since others are like me(human), they have the same potential, but just don't see it.
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
Well, good luck. As a saying I heard goes: Humans are quick to react and slow to change. A very long life span may help in your endeavor.
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quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago
.............................Cagsil
.................................\/
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
Oh boy.
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awareposted 14 years ago
hi cagsil your forum is still doing well i see . good job
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
I think he's sleeping.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
I don't really care about the thread, OP discredited the rules by breaking them himself, so everything goes.

But even if we follow the rules, they call for a proof of what you say. So, I can repeat the question I asked OP, slightly rephrasing it to fit your statement - how can you prove that no animal but human can tell right from wrong?
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's a good point, how can we possibly place our own minds into that of a cat and actually experience their standpoint. We can't. We as humans can only observe their behavior and compare it to a human.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. And considering there are quite a few facts showing that they behave as if they can, using the fact that we crap in the toilet, as Sandy elegantly puts it, to prove our superiority seems - umm - ungrounded
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agree it's not the right comparison to be using.
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Helen Caterposted 14 years ago
Life is a biatch
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Jewelsposted 14 years ago
I'm with you there Sandra.
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Jewelsposted 14 years ago
I think to cut to the chase what Cagsil is trying to pass is the level of consciousness that humans are SUPPOSED to have, yet we see it is clearly missing in many.

I take the work of Samuel Sagan MD as a model. I read some of Julian Jaynes work, and while it's fine as far as understanding that humans evolved consciously, of course they did and it continues. Evolution can take many forms - perhaps there is an atrophy happening!

What has been observed as a difference between the two is that Humans have the ability to show a higher love, compassion, warmth of soul, enthusiasm, and have aesthetic feelings. Animals (to which humans also share) have the emotion of anger, jealousy, and the sole purpose of getting laid to continue the species.

Human feelings are unconditional (or are meant to be). Often this is portrayed by a mother to a child (not always). The animal behaviour (to which humans also align) is reactional. We have the fight and flight principle here. Survival of the ittest etc.

Humans can be stable regardless of mirrored feedback - ie take criticism. The reactional animal will slap the hell out of you. Again we do this.

Animals usually have a pack mentality, they are influenced by the meme or group. Humans also do this, but have the ability to rise out of that pack mentality. In this regard Julian Jayne hit on a period of time where the mentality of humans was not one of individuality but group mentality.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You know that I am not teasing you, and trying to understand, right? Just to make sure you know
  Umm, again, how do we know animals are reduced just to that subset? I read a report somewhere about a bear using a splinter to make some kind of music, in its spare time...
  
  They might meant to be, but for most of us most of the feelings are conditional. Different species show different mother-child relations, some are stronger than human. Swans are known for lifelong commitment to a mate...
  
  May be some can sometimes. As a rule - LOL. I think it depends for animals, too. I am having hard time imagining for example a young gorilla slapping the leader in response to criticism
  
  Some animals live in packs, some animals even of the same specie - alone. Let alone species that live always or mostly alone.
  
  Sorry Julie, you did not convince me on any of these accounts.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Spot on Sandra.
Animals think, just not the same as we do.
The psychotherapist Marie Luise Von Franz mentions how her dog thinks. She chastised her dog for getting up on the sofa, and it worked out that it was not allowed to get on anything that was off the ground.
Reasoning. Not great reasoning, but definitely thinking!
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Jewelsposted 14 years ago
What Cagsil is failing to say, is that whilst humans are supposed to have more integrity, more compassion, more tolerance, more of the supposed higher traits of humankind, we don't. It's not that we shouldn't or can't, it's that we are failing at being high level humans. As a species we suck at the unconditional lovey dovey bits

And whilst it is the ideal to say, well just change your thinking, because you are what you think and you create your own reality by your thoughts - this maybe the case. But in order to do this, one must deconstruct all the filth that is blocking the view of who we really are.

There is a bit of blinkered idealism if you think it's that easy. Its f*cking difficult to undo brainwashing. Which is what it is. A person is moulded by it's surroundings and unless a person is given the environment to be an individual, to be creative, to be given the esteem to survive this rotten cesspool, they are going to sink and not swim. As I have said previously, if a person is abused and made to feel like a piece of sh*t it is not so easy to tell them - "hey sunny, just change your attitude and you'll be ok." Some people can do that, some people need allot of help to do it.

If you've only ever been taught to be a piece of sh*t, then that's how you will see the world.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh Julie, it is sooo true. It sooo fucking hard and painful. But quite rewarding though
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hugs Misha, it is very rewarding.
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
So, then Jewels, does that mean that your cat really just doesn't like your bed? ;p
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Have you noticed how cats do what they damn well like Unless you kick them out of the house, they'll take it over. mwahhhh!
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Too true. Too true. :-)
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Jewelsposted 14 years ago
Even with the knowledge that Julian Jaynes writes about. It makes no different about the where or when of when man upped his ability to be conscious. It's what we do with it that counts.
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Rick Marlowposted 14 years ago
Did you guys happen to see the pictures the other day of the group of chimpanzees mourning the loss of their 34 year old matriarch.16-20 of them stood silently,gathered in the group watching as the leader was buried in the compound.Researchers said it brought into question the extent of their emotions.They looked just like humans at a funeral.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I missed that Rick, but it is not hard to see that they would behave in this way.
  They can think and feel emotion, as other animals do, but a are a bit smarter than most other animals.
  Humans despite being intelligent are dangerously stupid emotionally.
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How are you friend and ain`t that the truth?
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm good!
  Feeling a bit humbled after my bike ride yesterday.
  I ran out of steam so quick I embarrassed myself. Dumb as a house brick! I have not ridden for a while and thought I was fit! What a joke that was!
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I did that once in a relay race in front of maybe 2000 people.Those guys left me so far behind I ran off the track faking an injury.hehehe.Never admitted that till now ,30 years later.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I did see that Rick, it was beautiful.
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sandra rinckposted 14 years ago
Precisely, Jewels, Misha and Earnest.

While I haven't read any of the authors you have, from a purely observational standpoint, I feel pretty confident that my dog understands right from wrong.

The differences between us in only in the "way" we reason something. I have no idea what goes on my dogs head when she gets caught doing something I "trained" her not to do.

I know she understands because she expresses restraint when she knows she is being watched. lol However, when I turn my back and she does and she gets caught, all I have to do is look at her and she clearly expresses a form of "guilt". She puts her tail between her legs, her ears slump over and if she has done something really bad, she hides. lol

Likewise, again from a purely observational position being a mother to both. Dogs and children seem to use the same reasoning.

ie: I have to "train" my kid to know the difference between right and wrong just as I have to train my dog. My kid expressed compassion at a very young age, just as my dog. True example. When my kid not even a year old, she snapped her head back and gave me a black eye, it hurt, I actually cried. In turn my kid turned around and started crying as well and showed me that she is capable of being compassionate. Like wise my dog bit me too hard playing once. I said ouch, she in turn came up to me and showed me she felt sorry.

When I get upset, both my kid and my dog get upset. When I express happiness and excitement, they too express it... long story short, both "learned" in the same way. And just as I often wonder what goes on in my kids head when she does something she knows she isn't supposed to do, I don't know what goes on my dogs head when she does something she knows she is not supposed to do.

On the other hand I still can't get my dog to bring the ball back and I still can't get my kid to use a quite voice. lol.

Now obviously I don't treat my dog and kid the same because they are still different species so comparing them isn't meant to reason that my kid is stupid like a dog or anything like that because my kid is extremely intelligent which sometimes me wonder if my dog plays dumb.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
Love ya, My Goddess
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Love you too Misha!
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good day you two! I hope it is all good for you!
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, we love you too Ernest
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hellz yeah we do!
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
Rick, Sandra; that is a great case for presentation to those that do not share that view. Elephants have been seen mourning their fallen as well.
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I saw on National Geographic how elephants could recognise their own reflection in a mirror.
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
Rick, the one species that grabs my rapt attention is the Porpoise. They are so interesting.
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They are truly amazing.I wish my children had their intellegence.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know whether to say here, here or oh boy. ;p
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Denno66posted 14 years ago
Oh, by the way, hi everyone! :-)
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Williamjordanposted 14 years ago
God is love so we must love,lets love someone who is diffcult and watch what happens. Can you love today.
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Second greatest commandment.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Try loving Cagsil. ;p
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  At first I had no use for Cagsil,but over time my heart softened.We`re total opposites as are Earnest and I but I have developed a friendship with both.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I find the polar opposite thing refreshing myself.
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  quietnessandtrustposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes correct...this includes loving someone enough to rebuke them when they act like the haughty~monster
  
  Iron sharpens Iron and the wounds of a friend are faithful.
  
  With so many "enlightened ones" in the forum, I wonder if they plug their computer into their ear for power?
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes sir,We`re in the presence of some great ones.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I wonder if that would help global warming?
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  Sexy jontyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ya that involves risk ...
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't make God the reason you need to love. Do it because you want to, not because you were told to.
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quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago
Whales are idiots, (kidding) the idiots can also navigate around the world without having a compass, satellite or any navigation equipment.

Like salmon, ask a human to be born, wonder away from home for a year and find it's way back without help.

Total morons those sea creatures.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, at least they're tasty.
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My wife can`t drive to the beach and get back.She`s only made the trip about 15 times with map and satellite.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  oi.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I had to buy a GPS to get around a city that I have lived in for more than thirty years!
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  quietnessandtrustposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My GPS has a button that says "where am I?"
  
  I thought to myself....'if I don't know where I am at, can I be a whale instead?'
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Thanks to you and all my friends for yesterday's support.
Love you all.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Did I miss something yesterday earnest?
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes Dennis, someone started a post that was quite insulting to me and quite personal.
  She called the post
  "Do you find EARNESTSHUB annoying or just plain loveable?"
  There wasn't much about lovable! That part of it was covertly hostile, the rest overt.
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow! I have seen NOTHING in the Hubs to substantiate such a cruel attack. I have found you to be absolutely undeserving of such treatment. You've another in your camp, my new friend.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well thank you very much Denno!
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  Denno66posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are quite welcome.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I saw that also Ernest. You must be a threat. I didn't partake at all, though you had allot of supporters.
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I knew nothing of it,never saw it.Besides you being mean and hateful and snotty,I think you`re a nice guy.
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong post Earnest,this was for you.hehe
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks! ... I think.
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  Rick Marlowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just a little humor,I actually am quite fond of you. Did you get them to retract the post?
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, but it turned out really good.
  The real hubbers who read hubs and have known me on and offline got stuck in and defended me. Not one negative post apart from the OP!
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  wyanjenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It turned out better than good.
  You've just had a limerick written about you
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do tell! I will go take a peak, thank you!
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Nice! Thank you agvulpes!
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