Do you believe that Deppression is a disorder or a wrong mindset?
definetly both.
one is a chemical imbalance that doesn't release enough endorfins to stimulate the right emotions and the other is situational due to long term, difficult circumstances.put it this way, theres a lot of people on anti-depressents who use them like placebo's and then theres a lot of people who could say they are depressed and keep on about it or just be a stronger person.. Im sure theres a few people who do need them though for various reasons.
- shazwellynposted 14 years ago
0- It is a scientific measurable physical condition.
- Triggers from life environment can impact it.
- Genetic inheritance may have an influence.
The seretonein can not get through to the synapes of the brain (the hormone leaps form one synapse to another) This causes reuptake which means it blocks and can not travel the neuro pathways. This lack of seretonine causes depression.
Prozac helps the seretonine to get through.
TIPs: Omega 3 and 5 helps acts like a lubricant for the synapes. This helps the hormone to fire off - it can then travel to the rest of the brain.
A healthy diet can help coping mechanisms - lots of fruit and veg!
Regular exercise can eleveviate symtoms.
Alcholic consumption can make the symtoms worse.
I hope this helps! To me, if you get depressed because of the weather, its a sign that you dont manage your happiness well. Or in a kinder phrase, it means you have to change something in your life to find yourself... there are many ways to work with depression that drs dont tell people, yet I do not say dont listen to your doctor, just make sure youve a good one who doesnt over medicate or not hear you.
If you understand bipolar at all, its a difficult judgement with medication. If she is being toxified, you have to stop taking and have levels checked etc.. If its just not liking the medication, maybe, and Im not a medical practitioner, try and get base level medication that you can stand and work on the other aspects of the diagnosis.. which can be daunting, but worthwhile.
There are so many different aspects to the diagnosis, that the medical treatment is really the starting point. The diagnosis is not the person and I wish you luck and love.
Someone close to me has bipolar and we use natural remedies alot. Nerve salts are really good, especially when we know there is a difficult day coming up.. they help calm and are not toxic, dont interupt medication etc... ((())
I also work with energy - barbara brennan hands of light and electrical brain messages. Learn to communicate to the middle brain.. Breathing exercises and ball games help too..Clinical depression is a very real, very serious medical condition. It isn't just a case of having "the blues" and it's not simply a "wrong mindset".
It can be completely disabling and lead to suicide if it isn't treated. Having suffered from it and struggled with it for 20+ years, I find it upsetting and insulting when people suggest it's merely a "wrong mindset". Please, get the facts and read the research on it.
At the very least, read the hub I wrote 2 months ago.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Yes-Virginia-Th … DepressionIf mind gets back on track then it's mindset if not then it's disorder.
Depression is a dark dog that follows people when they are at their lowest and then bites into their life.....its scary and its real....
I think both. They say that there are biological triggers of depression but then again your mind can affect your biology so they kind of go hand and hand.
For many it is a progression from a negative mindset that leads to health issues. Drinking, drugs, loss of sleep which can evolve into a disorder. Also often diagnosed as an illness that is based on chemical disorders in the brain. Medication does wonders for many.
You’ve asked an excellent question! It’s a very important one considering the number of people who suffer from depression.
It’s easy to become confused when you’re dealing with mental health. People throw around terms and sometimes the clinical definitions get confused with laymen’s definitions. That, coupled with the fact that DSM diagnosis doesn’t take etiology (cause of the disorder) into account, means you’ve got a complex picture here.
So, first, let’s start with a few definitions.
There are multiple Mood Disorders dealing with Depression in the DSM (the book [normally/often] used by psychologists, psychiatrists, and counselors to make diagnoses). These are “Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode,” “Major Depressive Disorder, Recurrent,” and “Cyclothymic Disorder.” The first is exactly what it sounds like: one distinct period of time during which the patient meets *at least five* of the symptoms for depression (regardless of the cause); the second is, obviously, having had more than one distinct period of depression; and the third is sort of a low-level depression that lasts unceasingly for at least two years.
So, what causes depression—mindset or chemical reactions? Well, since the mental health field doesn’t use etiology as part of its diagnosis process (which has its pros and cons), it’s difficult to know exactly the cause of the depression. It seems that there may be a little bit of each option going on since our patterns of thinking affect us physically and our bodies affect our patterns of thinking. So, for instance, it is possible to fall into a depression because of a negative mindset due to bad circumstances. This would earn you a diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode; however, the course of this episode might change your brain chemistry somewhat. Some evidence suggests that once you’ve been depressed once, you’re more likely to be depressed again at some point down the road. So…if that’s the case, the next time you’d get MDD, Recurrent…and that time it might be due to chemical imbalance, or even a combination of the two. The brain may respond to negative thought patterns by changing the release of chemicals. One day, I hope to see MRI and Spectrum scans become a normal part of mental health—more things than not (I theorize) will be able to be seen in the brain; I believe this will help develop appropriate treatment plans.
Since you mentioned Bipolar disorder, I just wanted to let you know that it is a different animal from depression altogether (although it can include Depressive Episodes). There are two kinds of Bipolar Disorders: Bipolar I Disorder and Bipolar II Disorder; the essential feature of Bipolar I Disorder is having had one or more Manic Episodes—this is where it can begin to get confusing; "bipolar" used to denote someone with Manic-Depressive disorder, BUT THIS IS NO LONGER STRICTLY THE CASE—a person can have Bipolar I Disorder (manic episodes) without ever having had a Depressive Episode. Bipolar II Disorder is a little closer to what used to be called Manic-Depressive Disorder; it is the presence of recurrent Depressive Episodes peppered with “Hypomanic Episodes” (which are kind of like watered-down Manic Episodes—they’re strange and elated, but not quite as off the wall as full-blown manic). If this is what you’re fiancé has, an anti-depressant may not be the answer.
It should be noted at this point, by the way, that there is an entire school of thinking within Psychology and Counseling that denies the usefulness of diagnoses for healing. Those who ascribe to schools of thought such as the Recovery Movement and Family Systems Theory (among others) believe that if we label people (i.e., as having any mental disorder), then we are giving them a set of expectations and they *will* live up to them. IF we give them a *better* set of expectations and the resources to meet them, then they’ll live up to those and be healthier.
Regardless of the condition, it is common for a person suffering from a mental disorder to go on and off of their medication for many reasons, although it is absolutely recommended not to do so lightly or without medical supervision. It’s helpful for those living with those suffering from mental disorders to remember that medications can be scary—especially ones that “play with our minds,” as many psychotropic medications do. In many cases human nature, side effects, the stigma associated with medications (and mental disorders), or the simple fact that one feels better (just as with those antibiotics we don’t finish when the infection retreats) contribute to people ceasing to take them. Of course, in the case of long-lasting issues, symptoms often recur, and this is in addition to the potentially negative effects of suddenly ceasing to take medication—patients can end up on a sort of “roller coaster” of medication. As you can imagine, this is not a very healthy way to go; one way to alleviate this problem is to use psychotropic medication at the same time as counseling or therapy. Unless a client has a truly severe disorder, in many cases medication can be a temporary stepping stone. Especially in the case of Mood Disorders (like Major Depression and the Bipolar Disorders) many clients can learn tools like positive self-talk, recognition of symptoms, diet and exercise habits, and others so that eventually medication can become unnecessary.
Finally, there is NO psychotropic medication that I would consider even remotely safe for a fetus as any stage of development, and that includes anti-depressant medications. I suggest searching for and trying EVERY OTHER natural alternative to dealing with the disorder (aromatherapy [with research, even that can be dangerous depending on the oil], meditation, counseling, diet changes, exercise, etc.), rather than take medication while pregnant. If the patient’s mental disorder is so severe as to warrant the necessity of them, then intense prenatal care and medical supervision is highly recommended.
I hope this helps. I wish you the best of luck. If I may offer a bit of advice: If your fiancé really has this disorder, you should learn as much as you can about it, and about how to deal with it. Mental Illness can be dealt with, but it can be difficult. You may even consider joining a group for spouses of people suffering from mental disorders, or even seek counseling for the both of you so that you can each learn how to help one another deal with it. Knowing what’s going on can help prevent mood episodes.
Sorry to "write your ear off!" I feel this is an important subject, and didn't realize how much I had to say about it until I started writing to you!Oh yay!
I'm an adolescent psychiatrist so this is like double fun for me!
NOW.. Clinical Depression is NOT a disease or an illness like someone here claimed.
It's a disorder, a mental disorder.
Wasn't as fun as I thought.."Clinical depression" really is not a "diagnosis." But if you mean that Major Depressive Disorder is not an illness, per se, then you are correct. At least not a disease in the way you might think of a bacteria or virus causing a disease. However, those who suffer from it can tell you that it is "DIS-EASE" or that it makes them uneasy.
The DSM definition of a disorder specifies that one must have symptoms (i.e., for depression: irritability, loss of interest, insomnia, weight loss, fatigue, etc) IN ADDITION TO some kind of impairment (social impairment, vocational impairment, interpersonal, etc.). So, just because it's not a "disease" doesn't really make it any less serious (or "fun" as you put it)
Do you have an MD or something? You sound smart.
Well, I have an MD, and I'm taking my residency in psychiatry, and what I was taught was that an "illness" doesn't qualify as a disease unless it's contagious or genetic, and seeing how depression is neither contagious nor genetic it doesn't qualify as a disease.
I mean, it's a disorder and it, of course, has the right to be treated as seriously as any other disease, don't get me wrong here.Thank you for your compliment! I'm only in my second year of grad school earning my degree in mental health counseling, but I've been in the mental health field for about fifteen years now in various capacities. I love the work, and I love to study.
Yes, depression is really not an illness, as you've pointed out. I was thinking about it not being contagious when I said that it's "not a disease in the way you might think of a bacteria or virus causing a disease." I didn't mean to imply that you thought it was any less of serious problem...only that I think it's "fun" because it presents a challenge...I probably didn't convey that well though. I'm kinda tired.
What's it like getting trained in Psychiatry these days?It's fun, it's definitely fun. Very challenging. And I agree with you on one thing, the mental health studies are fun. I love it, just .. studying how the brain works. It's amazing, the brain.
Mental health counseling? Is that like a coach or something? You know.. Psychology coaching?It's like Psychology with a particular focus on applying theory in a counseling setting. How to do therapy.
I'm very interested in knowing more about how the brain works to incorporate into my practical work. Can you recommend some good texts?
- sord87posted 14 years ago0
I would say that all depression came from our life itself,nothing to do with the mindset.In fact people never set their mind but people stress can change their mind focus.Probably this would help.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Manage-your-str … -Christmas GlassSpider, I have books .. like.. in my computer. Think it's called E-Books, that are only like 3,6 Megabytes or something if you want me to email you some pretty interesting stuff. I also wrote a pretty good paper on Multiple Personality Disorder which I guess I could publish as a hub, but it's like 6000 words.. Interested?
I'd rather not post my email here (I'm actually not sure we're allowed), but if you go to my profile you can email me through there...Or, better yet, I can email you, and you can respond to it.
@New Yorker: I sent you an email. It's been nice talking with you. I hope to see you again soon, but I must be off to bed; it's 3:00 AM here.
Have a great evening!Someone earlier on this forum mentioned that they were upset about the quality of information on this forum. I have to say I, too, have been disappointed in what people know and what doctors/counselors are apparently telling them.
First of all (at least in the U.S.), "Clinical Depression" does not exist, it is not a valid diagnosis, and no doctor or therapist can be reimbursed by an HMO or insurance company if they put that on a piece of paper. So, if your doctor told you you have "Clinical Depression" he's just blowing smoke up your ass EITHER because he doesn't want to tell you what's really going on and how he came to his diagnosis OR he doesn't know himself.
I believe part of the confusion stems from the fact that most MDs can diagnose and prescribe medications for Mental Disorders, but typically they are untrained or trained little in the use of DSM diagnosis (this is not the case for psychiatrists, I believe they are trained in DSM). More confusion comes from doctors NOT taking the time to talk with their patient about their problem. Many people who are diagnosed with mental disorders really DO NOT meet the criteria of those disorders, so they end up popping pills for something that is really a "phase of life issue" and that could be taken care of with counseling rather than medications.
I also think that many patients don't take the time to be as interactive with the diagnosis process as they should be. Patients need to make sure to get informed about their rights, do their own research, and SPEAK UP if they're not sure a diagnosis fits them OR if they are not happy with a medical professional's treatment plan. A diagnosis (ESP. IN MENTAL HEALTH) is really a hypothesis; it's saying "Okay, you've got these symptoms, so I think this is what you have." Another professional MAY read those same symptoms a different way and come up with a different diagnosis. Diagnoses can change. Someone can begin with Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode...then a few years later end up with MDD, Recurrent...and then a few years after that, they might have a manic episode and their diagnosis would change to Bipolar I Disorder.
If you or someone you know is suffering from a mental illness, don't just depend on brain chemistry to help you. There are so many things you can do in addition to taking medications. Grab a copy of the DSM and check out your diagnosis--make sure it fits you. Join a group of people who share your diagnosis, talk to a nutrition specialist and get your body in shape (it will have a major effect on your mind). Talk to a counselor, ask questions. Don't just accept what your doctor has to say if you are suffering. There IS help, there ARE people who care. Here is a great place to being to get support: http://www.fsfmi.org/information.html
Finally, in my earlier long post where I wrote "Cyclothymic Disorder" I should have written "Dysthymic Disorder." Dysthymic Disorder is the mild depression that lasts for over two years and Cyclothymic Disorder is mild mania that lasts for over two years. I apologize for the discrepancy.AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUGH!
WILL THIS THREAD EVER DIE???
Too damn many Chiefs and not enough Indians... The worst "Is depression just a wrong mindset?" thread EVER.
What you just said is completely misleading and is EXACTLY what confuses people! When you say "clinical depression does not exist..." you're making things worse, not better! Please realize that's as far as many people will read and they'll go home and tell everyone "Depression (they'll skip the "Clinical" part) doesn't really exist. It's what doctors say when they don't know really know what's wrong" because of what you said. And that's BS and detrimental to those of us who have MDD!
Like you, I know about the DSM and proper medical terminology for hospital and insurance purposes, but the average person doesn't care one iota about coding techniques and reimbursements! They simply want to know if depression is a real medical disorder and what to do about it. So please stop splitting hairs over the official terminology as if that's so important to lay people.
FYI, the Mayo Clinic refers to major depression as clinical depression, the Cleveland Clinic Foundation refers to it as clinical depression, and the NIMH refers to it as clinical depression.
Believe me, nobody here cares that AXIS I on the discharge summary has to be written as (for example) Major Depressive Disorder, recurrent, severe, in order to be valid for insurance reimbursement! That's in-house terminology. Leave it in-house and talk to everyday people in everyday terms they can relate to!
Like others here I suffer from CLINICAL DEPRESSION. Yes, that's what I'm calling it, using those exact words, just like the Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic and NIMH do. And I'm sick and tired of having to defend myself when people say "clinical depression isn't a real medical problem/disease/disorder/whatever" because they mis-read all the unnecessary hair-splitting that's done over the terminology.
DIE THREAD, DIE!
There, now I feel better.
Carry on and have a great day.Guess what? I suffer from it too, and all the people running around who don't feel like taking the time to read the literature, to understand what they really have, and WHAT THEIR DIAGNOSIS ACTUALLY IS can be hurting themselves. Many MDs don't know what the hell they're talking about and end up stuffing people with pills for disorders they know little about. I don't care what the Mayo Clinic or the Cleveland Clinic calls it, if they're not using the labels that clinicians have to use behind closed doors, they're keeping their clients ignorant.
If you had taken the time to read what I wrote you would see that I wrote that "Clinical Depression" does not exist as an appropriate diagnosis. I never said it wasn't a problem, I certainly didn't imply that it wasn't serious. I simply believe that when clinicians and laypeople use the same terminology and vocabulary, when clinicians take the time to educate sufferers about these things, people can suffer less, they can know more about themselves AS WELL AS THE PROCESS.
Doctors and clinicians and HMOs and such like to keep people in the dark about things. They like to treat people as though they're too stupid to understand what's going on in the "upper echelons." They like to use technical jargon and not educate people about it, and they like to propagate the use of innaccuracies. If you, as a patient, are okay with that. That's your choice. As for me, I'll educate people about how diagnosis is really supposed to work, and I'll tell them what their counselors and clinicians are saying when they're not in the room.(1) I read every word. I guess you skipped over the part where I said most people wouldn't. (2) You completely missed my point.
If you had read all the posts in the thread before you started posting last night it may have helped. You undid a lot of the good that was done by people here.
And I'll take the terminology used by the some of the very best medical facilities in the world over a 2nd year psych student's picayune hair-splitting verbiage any day -- and I suggest everyone else do the same.
Don't you think you should learn from the pros instead of dissing them as if you know more about how things work in the real world in real, everyday settings? Have you ever considered there are legitimate reasons for what they say and how they say it?
Your conspiracy theory -- "Doctors and clinicians and HMOs and such like to keep people in the dark about things" -- is frightening coming from someone who should know better. The medical profession isn't out to "get" everybody so they can take over the world. Their mission isn't to "keep people in the dark". It's to help them and that means speaking their language.
What the best doctors do is speak to patients in every day language, simple terms so there's no confusion. They don't treat people as if they're stupid, they simply don't use strictly technical jargon because that is exactly what confuses people. It's not a case of trying to hide a diagnosis or the process or anything else!
People do know exactly what their diagnosis is if their doctor speaks to them without using ICD-10 or DSM terminology. They don't think they have a broken foot instead of depression! But they don't want or need to study unnecessary medical terminology during a routine medical appointment. If they're curious as to what the exact medical terminology is, they'll ask and I'm sure their doctors will tell them. But the first thing most people do is ask a doctor to speak in plain English, not technical jargon.
CLINICAL DEPRESSION is a real disorder and it's the real terminology that the best doctors in the world use -- no matter what a possible future counselor prefers to call it.You are correct, I didn't read every single thread on this forum, but I did read many of them, and that is exactly what prompted me to write what I wrote. If you don't believe that HMOs and the doctors and clinicians who receive kickbacks from them don't have an investment in making sure people remain confused about the specifics of the diagnostic/treatment process then you haven't been paying attention. It is a major problem that many people don't understand their diagnoses and are not encouraged to ask questions like "Where did you get that?"
While I understand what you're saying about using language that people understand, clients should also be given the chance to understand what's going on technically so that they can understand how a practitioner reached a particular diagnosis, whether or not that diagnosis actually fits them, and how it is going to be paid for. Of course, this is a free world; you're welcome to your opinion, just as I am welcome to mine. It is my opinion that IF diagnosis is going to be used at all, then it ought to be used in a standard way, AND clinicians have an obligation to educate their clients about the terminology and the process by which it is used. That is a client's right; if the client waives that right, that's fine also; they deserve the chance to know it.
Also, besides the fact that I am in my second year of grad school, I have worked in the mental health field for fifteen years. I have worked DIRECTLY with clients, multiple types of agencies, and HMOs. I know quite well how it works, and I've seen the power dynamic that people in those positions like to use against clients to line their pockets. It's one of the reasons I decided to get a degree in counseling. This won't be my first, or even my second, degree.I've paid very close attention but I'm not sure you have. We're talking about the terms 'clinical depression' and 'major depressive disorder', remember?
One more time: Physicians don't use the term 'clinical depression' instead of 'major depressive disorder' in order to 'keep their patients in the dark' or deceive them about their 'real' diagnosis. Honestly, that conspiracy theory is just ridiculous.
The terms are used interchangeably by the best physicians and in the best hospitals in the world. And forgive me, but I believe they know more than you do.
Regardless, there is no deception. No one is being kept in the dark. Insurance companies aren't going to be the least bit baffled by the old switcheroo. CLINICAL DEPRESSION IS A SERIOUS MEDICAL DISORDER. Even if you prefer to call it MDD.
I don't think you do. Sorry.
Coincidentally, I worked DIRECTLY with clients, multiple types of agencies, HMOs AND PHYSICIANS in mental health settings for more than 15 years. Small world, eh? Ever worked at the Cleveland Clinic?
Not one single time did any physician say, "Pssst! Sara! I'm going to tell my patient he's suffering from 'clinical depression' instead of a 'major depressive episode' so he won't know what's really wrong. Clever, huh?"
I'm in awe. I only have one degree. But since you have at least two that means... Absolutely nothing.
Well, speaking from experience, depression runs in my family (which I didn't know until I couldn't manage it anymore, and my father told me about his parents). Until I began to understand that not all people felt dark and depressed everyday, I truly thought it was just moodiness, or whatever age I was at at the time, or ... a million other things. Antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications have been a key part of the quality life I'm able to live today. I'm lucky, though - friends of mine keep changing medications, trying to find one that works for them. I'm noticing I'm a rare case of medication success. But I also work very hard to face both my inside world and the outside world beyond me. Depression, for me, is like a vacuum that pulls me inside myself if I let it. Cognitive Therapy has been extremely helpful for me and for some of my friends also struggling with depression that cuts them off from living their lives fully.
For me, there are times that I feel blue; those pass, it's just feelings that eventually move through me usually within a relatively short period of time (less than a week or two). But when everything is despair, everything unmanageable and no way out of this thinking pattern, I know it's deeper than that, more than likely chemical, and I get help before it becomes bigger than me. Bigger than me, for me, means that nothing looks more inviting and a promise of relief than that "endless sleep" of checking out.
Just watch out for therapists who are seeking relief from their own despair by focusing on you and your problems in a way that makes them worse, not better. Real connections to people and facing fears seems to be a key part of the healing and stabilizing process, too.Wow! You've told a very heartening story. Congratulations for fighting your depression! It sounds like you've really taken advantage of treatment options that work for you and that you've done the work not just with medication, but also with your internal world. You also seem to be aware of when your symptoms are getting beyond your control and that is THE number one key to preventing severe episodes.
You also brought up an excellent point about therapists. Counselors are people too, and they have issues...this is normal; however, they should have been in counseling and have options to get back into counseling whenever they need to in order to deal with those issues. The counseling relationship is about the client! When looking for a counselor or therapist, make sure they've sat in the patient's seat; this won't guarantee that they can deal with their issues, but it is a BIG help. If you find that you're beginning to feel that a counseling relationship is becoming detrimental to you (and I don't just mean the "feeling worse before feeling better" phenomenon), talk about it--counselors are trained to be aware of those issues, and your saying something may help them see something they've missed; this, in turn, will help them help you. And if you talk about it, but can't get it properly addressed LOOK FOR ANOTHER COUNSELOR.
@Ask MT thank you for sharing such an important and personal tale. That took some courage.
Since everything we do, eat, think, etc affects our body's chemistry, I don't think you can separate any of them out of depression.
Some people have severe depression because their diet is totally inadequate, they are in toxic environments, or have negative energy hanging around from traumatic events in their lives. their thyroid could be totally off, or their levels of estrogen are too low.
I believe that antidepressants help and are even necessary for some more extreme cases. But often, lifestyle changes, dietary changes, and therapy are helpful to create new chemistry and new ways of helping the body/mind to cope with what it can't change.
Then, when or IF, antidepressants are still necessary, the levels needed may be much lower than previously prescribed!depression is a disorder, a chemical imbalance in the brain. Iv'e been on my deathbed due to depression, and the way i felt was something i had little control over.
Paradise7- I'm a chick, not a guy! no offense taken, my name is more commonly a guys name!
You know, I just checked out your profile, became your follower...I like so much how you said you made some mistakes but have learned from them, came from a semi-dysfunctional background but have learned from that, too, and love your family...
You and me, New Zealand, have a lot in common!Look, you can make assumptions about what you believe about my credentials all you want; I know my experience. The discrepancy between clinical terminology and layman's terms can create serious problems with what people understand about their problems, what the people AROUND those people understand about those problems, and how those problems are treated. People are misdiagnosed on a regular basis and don't even understand that they have been misdiagnosed because they don't understand the diagnostic process.
When people are misdiagnosed (or when specific disorders are over diagnosed) people may enter into treatment that is not appropriate for their actual condition. If they are not at least minimally aware of the process or even of terminology it may be very difficult to understand that there is even a problem. Part of the problem with this is that clinicians still get paid to have misdiagnosed/over-diagnosed. I do not believe that individuals in the medical or mental health field, in general, sit around and plot ways to keep people in the dark, but I would argue that the system itself has developed in such a way that it contributes to people's ignorance by expecting them to be ignorant, has created an unnecessary power structure with the use of jargon that should be demystified, and-IN GENERAL-can contribute to the stigma placed on people suffering from mental disorders.
There have been plenty of instances in which misunderstanding a common clinical diagnosis-because most people understand it as a layman's term-has resulted in people losing loans, losing jobs, and suffering other consequences they didn't deserve when confidentiality was breached and people don't understand what terms really mean.
If you have the experience you say you do, then you understand that "Clinical Depression" is a catch-all term that has been used interchangeably to mean up to five distinct disorders(MDD Single; MDD Recurrent; MDD W/Psychotic Features; Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD); and sometimes even Bipolar II Disorder). Which of these disorders you actually have has a STRONG IMPACT on the course of treatment that is appropriate for you. The words "Schizophrenia," "Bi-polar," and "ADHD" have been treated in a similar fashion. Since I believe strongly the client should be central in the formation of a treatment plan that will be effective for them, I believe the client should actually UNDERSTAND which of those disorders they are actually being diagnosed with and what that means for their treatment.
If someone with MDD, Single Episode comes into my office, I may wish to include a lot of work with symptom recognition very early on in treatment while working on alleviating what I hope will be temporary depressive symptoms; this might be essential to preventing another episode which would CHANGE their diagnosis AND their prognosis. However, if they come into my office with MDD, Chronic the focus of my treatment may be learning coping skills, gaining ego strength, or exploring the underlying causes for such long-lasting symptoms. Each scenario is different, but by your argument can be covered by the words, "Clinical Depression."
As I said before, you are entitled to your opinion. My experience tells me that there is really no good reason not to tell people these things. There is no reason NOT to make clients a part of the diagnostic process in an accurate way. There is no good reason NOT to be transparent about this information with clients. And there is no reason to use inaccurate terms; it is an ethical imperative, if one uses the DSM, to explain the diagnoses within it in ACCURATE terms that the client understands.
And you can ask for the thread to die all you want. Like you, I agree that Depressive Disorders are very serious, very severe problems and many people are suffering all over the world. That is part of why I believe that the above is important knowledge for those sufferers, and I would share it with any client who walked into my office if they wanted to hear it; when I make a diagnosis, I intend to show clients why I made it and I intend to help them understand how those things affect their treatment. If you disagree, that's fine. I wasn't initially writing to you in the first place, just avoid my responses, that's your right.I don't know what you're taking about; I never made any assumptions about your credentials.
You continue going off topic, talking about diagnoses and terminology in general. This thread, this exchange has nothing to do with any diagnosis other than clinical depression/major depressive disorder. What may or may not happen in other situations with other diagnoses is an entirely separate discussion for some other time. Stay on topic, please.
That is completely FALSE. The term 'clinical depression' is NOT used as a catch all. SAD and bipolar disorder are NOT referred to as clinical depression.
MDD/clinical depression, SAD, dysthymia and bipolar disorders are all separate subcategories of depression. Again, they are NOT all lumped together as 'clinical depression'. ONLY MDD is used interchangeably with 'clinical depression'. You are misleading people.
Read this link or any of thousand of others like it that deal with depression.
"The following three different kinds of depression are distinct depressive disorders described in the DSM."
"Major Depressive Disorder (also known as Major Depression, Clinical Depression)"
"Dysthymic Disorder (or also referred to as Dysthymia)"
"Manic Depression (now known as Bipolar Disorder)"
Clinical depression is NOT a catch all for anything. CLINICAL DEPRESSION IS MDD ONLY. Why you cannot understand that is a mystery.
I have personally experienced Clinical Depression & that makes me entitled to have a strong opinion on this topic.
# Me - Before Depression
First - I can be pig headed, determined, stubborn & Self Controlling.
Second - I've always been labelled an Optimist. Probably tapping into my determination,strong willed personality traits. I would be defiant - And choose to make the best out of any situation. I would search it until I found something that I could use in my life as a positive.
# Me About to get Depression
At one point in life I experienced a series of extremely distressing situations. I had no control over these events. I was not responsible for them - But involved great heart ache.
# Me - With Learned or Real Depression!!!
Totally pessimistic, unmotivated, hopelessness shrouded every thing that I previously considered important, valuable.
I felt non stop agony & which at times had no basis for it.
Gosh I watched "Nemo" & was broken hearted by it. (That is not exactly something Learned you know!! Everyone else laughed at things - I sobbed!!)
I hated the fact that my lungs just kept breathing in & out - Something that I had been previously greatful for.
I avoided people - because I did not have the strength or energy to act as the me they knew!! How on earth do you learn that!!
Death - Was the only thing I yearned for...Just to make the pain & agony go away for just a moment - Not actually realising that would put a rather permanent stop to more than just the pain!!!
# Me - Treated
I was desperate to get out of this hole - I would have believed a pebble off the ground had the power to fix me if I had been told that.
Desperation makes you willing to try anything. I was determined to get well. Some treatments didn't really make that much difference.
I wanted it to make the difference - If It was learned man by this point I wanted it to be well and truly UNLEARNED
Success
Finally a treatment that made the difference. Over night success NAAAA but after a few weeks of persisting in taking the meds - I hung the clothes out! - Then realised man - I just hung the clothes out! That would normally take hours to build up the desire & finally succeed in hanging out the clothes.
Here it was that I had hung out the clothes simply because the washing machine had completed its cycle - I didn't even realise what amazing thing I was doing until I realized I had done it & had hours to spare!!! I didn't learn that it is much better to spend 2 or 3 hours procrastinating & agonizing over hanging up the clothes I can promise you that.
# Me Treated & Rebuilt
I did not learn to be depressed. I did not know the person I had become - I hated the person & the mind that had taken over my life - The mind set was alien to the me I had always been.
I rebelled against it, I fought against it, I pig headedly & stubbornly resisted the influence of this new mindset until I could resist it no longer.
It had taken over & invaded me. I didn't learn how to be the person I had become.
I lost 3 years of my life to depression. I did not choose it, I did not settle back into my comfort zone and allow it to have free reign in my life...
The right treatment - helped me to feel the person I was again. Slowly but surely I became the Me I knew... This me however was determined to benefit from this rotten cruel totally soul destroying problem.
I can help others, I can plead the cause of those still suffering & I can fight the total stupidity that someone would ever wish to learn how to destroy there lives!!!
***It is thoughts like that - "Pull yourself together" "Wake up to yourself" that send people flying over the edge of cliffs, or places rope around someones neck - or causes them to swallow a gut full of pills.
Desperation is not learned - It is tragic symptom of Mental Illness!
Well I hope I have explained why I know in my case & in the case of many individuals still battling with a depression that they did not ask for, want & cannot successfully stop on their own!
SORRY IT HAD TO BE SO LONG! I COULDN'T SUMMARIZE IT - SORRYThe important thing is that you're feeling better.
I apologize if you cannot understand how what I’ve had to say might be relevant to this topic; I have done my best to explain what I see as serious problems between professional terminology and laypeople’s understanding of diagnosis in general and their specific diagnoses—between what practitioners tell clients and what they write in medical records. I believe people deserve the chance to understand those things and they deserve to be informed by their medical practitioners in accurate ways. I can tell you’ve suffered with the issue of depression, and I can tell that you don’t want others to suffer unnecessarily. However, some of the things you have said tell me that you have, quite unbeknownst to you obviously, been a victim of the same kind of inaccuracies regarding diagnosis that many other clients have been subjected to. I have personally witnessed professionals use the terms I discussed before interchangeably with clients, and I have seen them used interchangeably in these forums TODAY. This indicates to me that medical and mental health professionals are NOT accurately describing diagnoses to their clients; this equals a problem to me (and many other professionals with whom I have worked and under whom I am currently being trained).
Bipolar I Disorder I or Bipolar II Disorder are NOT, as you suggest, sub-categories of depression. The fact that you think so and are willing to spread that information tells me all I need to know about how you are coming by your information (i.e. from websites geared specifically for “laymen” that assume their ignorance and that spread the inaccurate use of the non-specific terms about which I’m speaking, and from practitioners who are content to let you use a vague term).
Practitioners can be held responsible for the accurate use and explanation of DSM diagnoses—using non-specific or inaccurate language can get one sued or sent up before an ethical board—if a client recognizes it and makes a complaint. Bipolar I Disorder and Bipolar II Disorder are actually different disorders, with different —manic— symptoms (and with different biological components contributing to their causes), that fall under the heading of Mood Disorders. Depressive Disorders are ALSO in the Mood Disorders category, but they have different, clear, understandable sets of criteria. Clients suffering from any of them deserve to know how they are different, how a practitioner reached that diagnosis (i.e., if it’s even accurate), and they deserve to understand how the differences affect their treatment and prognosis. Bipolar II Disorder includes depressive episodes, but that is only HALF of the clinical picture. Bipolar I Disorder may not involve depressive symptoms at all. Either of the Bipolar disorders represents a different prognosis and the need for a different treatment plan.
In my opinion, this is similar to if your doctor told you had cancer. You would want to know what kind of cancer it was, what kind of treatment it needed, and what chances the doctor thought you had of surviving. If your doctor didn’t tell you these things, or used vague words to describe them to you, you might be upset (and rightfully so), especially if later on someone came along and told you about these different things that you ought to know about your particular kind of cancer.
Furthermore, by disseminating information about “situational depression” and “clinical depression” you are spreading misleading information. If you continue to read on that Mayo clinic’s site you like so well, you will see that even they will tell you that the causes of Mood Disorders are complex, and it is difficult to determine the variables that cause them. The mind and body affect one another; your situation may affect the chemical production in your brain—chemical production in the brain is not a static thing, it’s ongoing and changing—one of the things that affects it is your environment. There are biological, environmental, and psychological components to each of the Mood Disorders and reducing the problem to EITHER chemical imbalance OR environment may, ultimately, be doing clients a disservice when the real cause may be some of each…which would indicate a need for different treatment measures.
In addition, the DSM clearly states that if someone is suffering from intense sadness over a situational event (like the death of a loved, for instance), then they DO NOT necessarily have a disorder—they are experiencing normal grief over a natural event. That IS NOT pathological, you are not suffering a disorder, you are experiencing something it is COMMON to feel extremely sad about for a long time—it is preposterous to me that some people want to label “grief” a “situational depression;” some so-called professionals feel the need to give someone medication for it. Grief is normal, bereavement is a common response to death; it is not “situational depression” or a disorder at all—someone going through it is not sick. They probably need support, they probably don’t feel good, and might benefit from therapy, but it does not warrant a diagnosis. If more people understood these things, they might also realize they don’t need to feed a system that is invested in making sure they believe in pathologizing normal, if uncomfortable, occurrences and drugging people so they can avoid them.
But here’s the beauty of it, if you really think I have no idea what I’m talking about, check out DSM-IV-TR; DSM Made Easy, by James Morrison; DSM-IV-TR Case Book by Robert L. Spitzer; Essential Psychopathology and its Treatment by Jerrold Maxmen and Nicholas Ward; and the Handbook of Clinical Psychopharmacology by John Preston, John O’Neal, and Mary Talaga. You can see exactly what I’m talking about for yourself if you want to. The criteria for diagnosis and what these words mean is right there in English for people to read if they want to take the time to do it, and there is no ethical reason that I can see for practitioners to use one set of words amongst each other and in people’s medical records but another set of essentially meaningless fluff with their clients.
I strongly encourage anyone who has been told they have a disorder to look it up and see if the disorder actually fits their symptoms/experience, or if they are perhaps dealing with a “phase of life issue” “bereavement” or even a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DISORDER—it certainly wouldn’t be the first time someone had been improperly diagnosed or improperly informed about their diagnosis. I strongly encourage patients to talk with their doctors about how they reach their conclusions and what those conclusions mean for treatment, and I strongly encourage people not to blindly accept narrow treatment options without exploring what’s available to them.I'm sorry but you are DEAD WRONG.
Pay attention.
Mood disorders include depression among others. Notice it is simply 'depression' NOT Major Depressive Disorder.
Depression in turn is further broken down by the DSM-IV into subcategories that include depressive disorders (i.e., CLINICAL DEPRESSION/major depression, SAD, & dysthmia) and bipolar disorders (I & II).
Please, READ THE DAMN BOOK CAREFULLY.
As for all the other stuff you keep rambling on and on and on about, how many times do I have to tell you this thread is concerned with depression, especially CLINICAL DEPRESSION -- not all the faults, flaws and woes of the entire medical profession. Stay on topic, please.
No, I'm sorry but you're absolutely clueless about where and how I have obtained information. Good grief, the only reason I listed that website is because you seem incapable of understanding anything more complex.
When you see things written in black and white you still refute them.
When you're confronted with the verbatim terminology used by world-class hospitals you say they're wrong and you're right.
As for the rest of your long-winded diatribe, it's totally irrelevant. You're making ridiculous assumptions about what I think, believe and know about other doctor-patient matters. Please don't make those assumptions.
sometimes chemical imbalances may cause wrong mindsets and other times, wrong mindsets cause chemical imbalances.
for me, i had wrong mindsets that was intense enough to cause chemical imbalances in me that was helped by taking pills. but once I started taking the pills, I need to work on my wrong mindsets or else i'd be on the pills forever.Glass Spider, you have an agenda with the medical profession, but this is not the forum for it.
No amount of degrees qualifies you like personal experience.
I have had depression. Unless you have had it you will never really understand what 'clinical depression' means. I don't care how many health professionals lined their pockets, they saved me and without help I would be dead.
Let that be the end of it please.No. I have an agenda regarding educating people about how the diagnosis process actually works, being transparent about what practitioners SAY to clients vs. what they put IN THEIR MEDICAL RECORDS, and how those things can affect treatment. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that there are discrepancies between the two that I believe clients can understand, and should have the chance to.
My experience and what I have to say is just as valid as yours. Why do you say, “Please let this be the end of it;” I have no obligation to you here. If you don’t like what I have to say, as I have said to someone else—don’t read my posts, and don’t respond to them. It should be obvious, at least to some, that I feel like this is a genuine, serious, and complex problem. I’m sorry if it bothers you that someone else’s experience differs from yours, but that does not mean I should be quiet about it—as a mental health professional and future counselor (I am only changing jobs in this field, you understand) I feel a particular obligation to encourage accuracy and education about Depression and how client's are educated about it. Does it bother you to hear that many medical doctors might not be as well trained in mental illness as you thought? That many are trained to deal with mental disorders only by prescribing medication? Does it bother you that they are allowed to use diagnoses that they don’t have to defend? Does it bother you that many clients end up feeling as though they must accept what practitioners tell them without looking into the process behind it or being told about other diagnostic and treatment options? It bothers me. My experience tells me it bothers other people as well. I am simply telling you, and anyone who wants to listen, things that national licensing agencies have determined that mental health professionals (i.e., Psychologists and LMHCs—therapists) must know and should share with clients.
Why do you assume that I have no personal experience with MDD when I have mentioned more than once that I do? Indeed, my personal experience with MDD is a major part of what prompted me to be concerned about the OP’s questions and the responses I’ve seen here. My current diagnosis is Major Depressive Disorder, Recurrent, In Partial Remission; among other things that means I’m managing a few symptoms and moving towards being free of symptoms. I even know what I need to do to make sure to can get to full remission—I need to exercise more, and I need to make some better dietary choices; I do not use medication, and do not have to.
I was a teenager when I went to my medical doctor during my initial depressive episode; he spent fifteen minutes talking to me, told me, “You have clinical depression and social anxiety disorder; I’ll write you a prescription.” He did not explain this diagnosis or what it might mean for the rest of my life, he did not explain the medication, he did not discuss treatment options—and there are many that are LESS INVASIVE than medication. He made me feel like I had an incurable disease and would have to be on pills for the rest of my life; he also made me feel like I was an ignorant patient not worth taking the time to talk to and educate. And that WAS NOT the case; nor is it the case for anyone else. I should mention that I had insurance at the time; I was living in Maryland, and I went to see my doctor who worked at a world-renowned medical facility. The same famous medical facility, by the way, worked absolute miracles on my body when I was hit by a car—they just didn’t do as well with the mental part. I have great respect for the medical field, but I also appreciate its limitations.
Fortunately, I was also able to see a Psychologist—someone actually trained in Mental Health Disorders and how to use the tools of the field. I learned that there’s a lot more to Depression than most people think and are told by their doctors; I learned that many medical doctors DO NOT receive much training in mental health disorders UNLESS they seek it out on their own, and I learned that I DID NOT have social anxiety disorder. I learned OTHER tools to combat my MDD, and I DO NOT have to take medication for the rest of my life in order to manage it. One of the first things my Psychologist did after talking with me was pull out the DSM, show me the disorders and their criteria, and we talked about how those applied to my situation. I understood my diagnosis, and I understand why that affected the goals of our therapy.
I understand that other people have had different and more positive experiences with their medical doctors, and I am glad of that. Major Depression is serious and can be debilitating—I have never once even remotely implied that it is not. However, some people may also have experiences like mine, it is obvious to me that many people are confused about what their diagnoses actually mean, and if they take something from my experience, I am happy—if you don’t, that’s not a problem, either. But if you want to argue about simple aspects of the diagnostic process that can and ought to be shared with clients, please understand that I’ve done this work, I’ve done the studying, and I’ve defended my ability to diagnose and use the DSM before a panel of highly-qualified professionals—just as any qualified mental health professional must. Have you?
@Sara: You "read the damn book carefully;" if you do, you will find that the words “clinical depression” do not appear in it even once. You will also find, on page 372 information regarding the prevalence of the disorder (which, if you’re aware of the statistics, will tell you that the disorder is being over-diagnosed quite a bit). You’ll find on page 352 the discussion about the complex etiology of MDD; which describes that it can be attributed to both organic and environmental issues—but that the causes are DIFFERENT depending on the individual. On pages 346-347, you’ll see how Depressive Disorders (or unipolar disorders) are separate from Bipolar Disorders. I could go through many other books and do the same thing…I’ve provided you with the titles of some already. There are many books written by long-time professionals and PhDs in the field who have a lot of very important things to say about MDD…but they never once mention the words “Clinical Depression” nor would they use that term with their clients. I wonder why that is?Obviously you either chose the wrong books or you skipped over some parts.
Please go hijack a different thread. This one has been sidetracked enough. You're rehashing the same things over and over, and worse, adding to them with tangent novellas.
Have a nice day.Tell that to the professional agencies who make them required reading for mental health professionals. One of those books is the very one YOU demanded that I read carefully.
Why do you wish so strongly to shut me up? Just because you don't agree with what I have to say, and can't or won't take the time to see that it might be worth thinking about? Fine, don't read it, don't respond to it: you are not the only person here, and my hope, whether you believe it or not, is that some will be positively affected or learn something valuable from what I've been through and learned. I have not asked you to stop sharing your experience, have I? No; I think your experience with MDD is JUST as valuable as mine, and I'm willing to read and examine what you say about it, and discuss it in an adult fashion. I have offered coherent reasons for why I think what I do, and offered you valid references so you or anyone else can see what I'm saying. Why is that so offensive to you?
Of course, if you consider what I have written novellas, perhaps it is easy to see why you might not have the patience to make it through some of the books I've mentioned.
In all sincerity and seriousness, you have a great day as well! I wish you the best with your struggle with MDD.
It's clear that most people know that clinical depression is real and it's extremely serious. I understand completely what you mean when you say "without help I would be dead". I've already accepted the fact that if I ever experience another episode of depression like the last one, I won't survive it. I hate saying that, but I can't imagine having enough strength and desire to go through that ever again.
Medication saved my life. Other things helped, but if the medication hadn't worked, I wouldn't have been around to try any additional kind of help.
Clinical depression shows no mercy.
I think you are stronger than you realize. I hope and pray you never have to suffer another depressive episode, but if you do, I have faith that you can beat it and keep fighting. MDD is one heck of a beast, but you've beaten it before!
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