Religious view = Selfishness?

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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Hello Religious folks,

I have just came to a nasty self-realization thanks to another religious thread.

I have determined that anyone who practices any religious view, which deems a higher cause other than humanity, is down right SELFISH in their action, regardless of what they do.

Your moral character is NOW on display?

The discussion in the other thread brought on this thought and I want to express it in the open, because I am of the understanding that it needs to be out.

Morality dictates that you as a person, are not only to live your life, but live it a certain way, just like religion would have you.

However, in doing so, your life is spent in the support of humanity's move forward as a collective. You have your part, just like everyone else on the planet. The common ground to build on is the foundation of Morality.

Morality is based on what's best for society, right and wrong. There is no gray area. If you're moral character is based on a higher cause other than that of humanity, you are selfish.

If you are selfish, then you go against everything you are taught by the bible. The bible tells you be selfless. It doesn't tell precise how to go about doing it, but it gives you a generalize understanding.

To be selfless is the OPPOSITE of being selfish. So, hence you are in direct violation of the teaching you supposedly live by.

So, tell me, what GOOD are you really doing?

What is YOUR purpose for living? It certainly isn't GOD?

No disrespect meant. I'm looking for a serious conversation. I want to know? Where do you stand?

I've made myself clear, ever since I first stepped in to HubPages, and yes been mocked by many, and even some go as far as to insult me and demean me, dismissing my words, with the grain of salt.

Let me make myself clear- My life is selfless. My purpose is give knowledge to people. My purpose in life is supported by my love for humanity, which is derived from finally understanding what it really means to be human.

I gain my own individual spirituality thru my love for humanity, because I see the potential and the problem in the way, for progress forward.

I recognize religious views are simply selfish people who would rather hope for a life after their death than to actually do their best to help humanity, strive forward.

SELFISHNESS = Religious Views.
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Cagsil....
  
  Interesting hub...I'm trrying to follow the logic....you say that religious views are selfish...religious people may be, but the foundation of religion isn't....You know, I speak for Christianity.....
  
  Jesus was the greatest lover of humanity that ever was....He said "Love god with all of your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as your self.....
  
  He said, He came to bring life and that more abundantly, He said that He came not into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved,
  
  He said, greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for a friend....
  
  He was a lover of humanity and His followers are supposed to be as well...We probably sound arrogant and absolute because we are thoroughly convinced of what we believe......
  
  And, because we aren't perfect you may see and hear a lot of stuff that isn't too your liking or that doesn't line up with our beliefs...but, we know that we are being worked on by God and that we are forgiven.......
  
  You are better than I am, because I have no idea what is best for society aside from the guidelines of the Bible......
  
  There are so many views in society how do you decide without a definitive guide which is best for the people? Whose morality do you accept?
  
  There are quite a few groups out there who consider themselves moral and working for the moral good but they are all on the FBI's watchlist.......
  
  Makes me think of some history and cultures that used the phrase "for the good of the people"---and who did some awful things to many innocent people....
  
  Always good commenting to you......
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Did you bother reading the entire thread? If not, please do so. That means, read all of the posts. And I can see that you didn't from your statement here.
  
  Did you know Jesus coded his messages? From your statement above, it's obvious that you didn't read all your bible, and take the common-sense away from it.
  
  Through his teachings. Get it right.
  
  That means love humanity as a whole.
  
  Jesus was against religion? Then again, this goes back to understanding his teachings and the fact that his message was coded.
  
  Moral guidance is what's in the best interest of society, it's obvious....look at society? You cannot see that?
  
  Morality dictates your actions to be selfless, not selfish and you're not to harm others in doing it.
  
  This is because there are a lot more people running around acting morally wrong than there are acting morally right. Why else?
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You make several assumptions in this post. First you assume that what is good for society as a whole is the best way to go. How do you define what advances humanity and how do you know if you're on the right track? Communism, for example, believes in empowering the "workers" which is a good thing, right? Yet Communism as practiced in the real world led to gulags, killing fields and perpetual revolutionary terror. So what is right? The theory of Communism or the application?
  
  I would argue that morality is based on the individual. The individual has maximum freedom to live where they wish, associate with whom they wish to associate and engage in the sort of work they wish to engage in. The only limitation on their freedom is that by their actions they do not deprive someone of their ability to pursue to live, associate and work as they wish to do so. Anything else is immoral and leads to things like the Inquisition, gulags, killing fields, etc.
  
  What is to keep someone, for example, from claiming their actions support a vision of humanity advancing, while in reality their actions are barbaric and uncivilized in the extreme?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You make no sense. First you talk about communism? First off, drop the label. Morality isn't tied to an ideal government. It is about self-responsibility of the individual, working toward a collective meaning. Morality isn't an individual perspective, it's a set standard for right and wrong.
  
  You don't like that fact that morality is black and white, then it's you who don't understand morality.
  
  As for your question- What is to keep someone from claiming their actions support a vision of humanity advancing, while in reality their actions are barbaric and uncivilied in the extreme? *** It would be obvious that their moral sense of value isn't truly to help society. There actions speak their moral aptitude/knowledge. And, if their actions harmed others, then obviously they have no moral value for humanity.
  
  I don't care what example you use. If they harmed society, even while claiming good, then they are still morally wrong.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well I could have said atheism, but not all atheists are communists. Communism, however advocated atheism and included it as part of its program to totally reform society.
  
  Actually I think we tend to agree on things. Morality is an individual thing. There are, however, rules that govern morality and we can understand those rules. You seem to think that society is the final arbiter of morality and I disagree with that position. I used Communism as an example, but I could have just as easily used the Inquisition or Nazi death camps as examples of how societies can allow themselves to embrace immoral objectives. In other words, societies are just as capable of making immoral decisions as are individuals. The difference is the scope of atrocity that can committed by societies vs individuals.
  
  What I believe is that there are universal moral laws that we can understand and that by living according to these laws, we can enhance the stability of society and civilization in general.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That I agree to.
  
  And this I disagree
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  kessposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To serve humanity merely for the sake of humanity is a daunting task, which I will not crittersize anyone when and if they eventually neglect it.
  
  The Christ never taught this.
  
  Men should serve humanity for the sake of the greatest good and father of all existence, which is that one God.
  
  Religion are no more selfish than the rest of humanity and to single them out only as such, is not taking a look at the bigger picture.
  
  Most religion teaches men to serve humanity for that higher cause and that in itself isn't wrong.
  
  They err because that higher cause is clouded in mystery and because of such they blindly serve evil.
  
  The kingdom of God, the good and father of all existence, is established within each individual.
  
  The coming of this kingdom is will cause one to purify his heart ( the seat of all desires) and from which he does good works for humanity.
  
  For Godliness is all good works from a pure heart.
  
  If Religion were to teach this alone then they all would be one. For men are taught to purify their hearts and that purifying needs no sermon nor laws nor government but a desire that grows from within.
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  donotfearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow...very well said.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This post is filled with so much conjecture it's not even funny. I was going to pick it apart, because most of it is B.S., but I decided to waste the energy.
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  shiva tattvaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My friend . Religion is defined as Dharma in Hinduism.
  
  It simply means that what you follow is your dhrma , your religion.
  
  So when you say "
  
  Let me make myself clear- My life is selfless. My purpose is give knowledge to people. My purpose in life is supported by my love for humanity, which is derived from finally understanding what it really means to be human.
  
  I gain my own individual spirituality thru my love for humanity, because I see the potential and the problem in the way, for progress forward.
  "
  
  You are actually following a dharma. What you have written more or les corresponds to teachings of many religions.
  
  About morality . Anything that comes in your way of realising god must be left out even if it deviates from morality. Morality changes with time, cultures , countries and like.
  
  tk care.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No argument from me. Hands down all belief systems are the shortcomings of humankind; no matter the topical title of theism, discovery, dirt-back-wet-back-brick-a-brack.
  
  { ps, good to see you laying a foundation for that teaching thing }
  
  { makes me a zealot, woohoo! }
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, Cagsil. We meet again. Would you descrite your beliefs as humanism? Correct me if I'm wrong. Humanism, which is a growing religion in America, is valuing, helping, and depending on human beings for the meaning of life. On the other hand, you talk about the selfishness in Christtians;
  
  I believe that there is self-centeredness in all humans (called "sin" by the Bible). You're right that Jesus called us to unselfishness because he was the only truly selfless person ever to live. True Christians still have that self-centeredness in them, but they have received God's free gift of a new nature.that struggles with the sinful nature. Christians only gain some progress in that spiritual wrestling match. Yes, we're all imperfect.
  
  Moreover, Cagsil, do you ever get a good feeling helping other people? If you never got that good feeling, would you still be helping others? My point is we are a mixture of motives, selfless and unselfish. We Christians believe that only in God's strength received through Jesus' life-and-death victory can we do anything to please God the Father. When he looks at our imperfect actions, he sees Jesus' perfect life instead and accepts us freely (the meaning of his grace).
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You like labels do you. What do my beliefs have to do with this? My beliefs are always evolving forward, whenever a new truth is revealed, one of my beliefs will change.
  No disrespect meant, but you seem to be a little dense in the area I call life. Not to mention blind.
  Oh yes, quote the foolish bible. Sin is a religious term and that is where it originated. It applies to only those who follow the religion and not to anyone else. Got it? Good!
  You know, if you actually understood what you just said, you would not that Jesus is not the only one who could do that. The blindness created by religion and it's phony god, keep you in check.
  Nice assumption based on a mystical figure. Man, you're funny.
  It is the ignorance goal of perfection. Perfection cannot be obtained by humans. All we can do is improve upon the things we do.
  I get a good feeling by doing what I do, every day of my life and my actions help better other people's lives. So, what is your point to the question, but then again, it is not relevant to the question. You are selfish, just like every other Christian or person with a mystical faith based view. With you and other like you, it is all about spreading the word of god, which is actually lying to others, so you can feel better about yourself. You are not out to help others and it is obvious that you've never walked the path of a Christian. Had you, then you would know there is no god.
  Okay, this is one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard.
  And, you assume too much. Also, it might be good if YOU would quit with the generalization, because YOU do not speak for all Christians.
  
  Either way, there is not disputing the selfishness those of religion has or continues to hide from those they talk to.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is very strange that often when I read your replies to someone’s comment; Your replies to them seem to be taking the words right out of my mouth...
  You seem to be describing yourself exactly as some others see your comments.
  
  It wouldn't surprise me if you could say the same about some of my comments.
  
  You; like everyone else, including myself, just can not understand why no one seems to be believing what you do. It seems so evident that we think that every one should agree with us.
  Everyone has this problem.
  We are all human.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's the thing. I don't need you to agree with me. I'd rather you were actually honest with yourself.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you could read what I said instead of automatically writing the first argumentative thing that came into your head you would have seen that I wasn't agreeing with you; ...
  just the opposite.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you do not want people to agree with you, that leaves very few plausable reasons for your arguementive nature.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand the basis for your morality, Cagsil. You say that if I walked the Christian way, I would know that there is no God? How make you make that statement? Where did you get your information about Christians and their beliefs, from Karl Marx or someone else? I'm trying to understand why you would want to be moral.
  
  I believe that the basis of morality is in the only perfectly-moral Person that ever lived, Jesus Christ. You are perfectly free to found your moral system in someone or something or some book besides Jesus and the Bible.
  
  However, he has given me and all true Christians a new birth and daily power through the Holy Spirit to live his morality, however imperfectly. But it was his death that obtained God the Father's "not guilty" verdict and approval because of Jesus' perfect morality, not my imperfect one.
  
  You are free to believe as you wish and to misrepresent Christian morality all you want. It is my understanding that that morality is based in the moral Creator-God of both of us and of all humanity. That's why I follow him in his strength. I'm just telling you the basis for biblical Christians' morality. What is yours?
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Jane@CMposted 14 years ago
I think I just got to know you a bit better there Cags & I like it!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You Jane.
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Crazdwriterposted 14 years ago
*sniff sniff* Am I considered selfish because of what I believe Cags?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How else to explain it?
  
  Edit: What do you think? Seriously?
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Seriously? no...because I am willing to accept all religious and nonreligious. but also yes because I go against what the bible says...so I guess I am half and half? oo I sound like milk that goes into coffee lol
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, you rather have hope of an afterlife than be in support of humanity? Just asking.
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope I rather support humanity since I already know there is an afterlife and whether I get there isn't up to me really except for what I do sometimes but I would rather support humanity
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But, your actions say otherwise. If you're in violation of God's Will, you will not be accepted.
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well then I won't be accepted even if I do still believe in God...like I said rather support my fellow human beings. Oh and can't forget my cute animal friends too. But will you accept me for my choices?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As long as you don't harm others. Sure.
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you mean my hubby and I can't play fight anymore? dang it! LOL and no way would I harm others. couldn't unless protecting myself and family.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  When it is instinctive survival, self preservation serves over all else.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I accept you, Crazdwriter, even though I may not agree with you. Why does there have to be a choice, everyone, between "believing in the afterlife" and "supporting humanity"? The Bible gives believers hope in their resurrection from the dead and a new creation to live in, while it also calls all people to believe in Jesus' perfectly moral life, death to take away God's punishment for our imperfect morality, and his resurrection to enable them to make progress toward living Jesus' morality. The Bible teaches, and Jesus makes possible, both views through his power. There's no conflict between the two views, I believe.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Doesn't religion say those who don't believe are selfish and prideful?
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Yea it does...well if that is the case then I am glad I am selfish and prideful though I definitely don't think I am prideful or selfish lol
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, the Bible says that humans were all created like God, but we chose our own selfish paths, to run our own lives without him. That's why Jesus came, to rescue everyone from their selfish, rebellious ways.
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Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago
Quite an analogy there, Cagsil.... quite a roundabout way to come to that conclusion. And quite an erroneous one, especially since you've lumped every "religious" person into that category.

Let me ask you something-----in your great "humanity", do you love and care about "religious" people? Or is that reserved just for unbelievers? Are they the only ones you think are "progressing" towards something worthwhile?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  First off Brenda, there is NO round about way. That's plain and simple reasoning. If you cannot handle acknowledging yourself as selfish, simply say, I'm not selfish. And, I will tell you IF you have any religious view that stems greater than human life, then YOU ARE MORALLY WRONG!
  
  Yes, wrong.
  
  My point is not a religious based. My love includes every human being on the damn planet. I don't care your religious view.
  
  I reject religion and it's higher cause, because it's damaging society and not making things better. WHY? If you read the OP, it's because people are selfish.
  
  You go against everything you're taught in the teachings.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean when you say, "if you have any religious view that stems greater than human life, then you are morally wrong!" Please explain what you mean by "stems," Cagsil. I disagree with you that your love of humanity is not religious. To me, religion is reliance on self, other people, or some higher power to make sense out life. Your reliance on and support for humanity is religious in that sense.
  
  You might consider the possibility that there is great satisfaction in looking to the Creator-God of the Bible who valued humanity so much that he created all of us and rescued those who trust in him.
  
  I'm selfish, Cagsil, but my Creator has given me his power through Jesus by the Spirit's power--as the one God--to move me away from my selfishness to strive to be unselfishly following God's morality in his Word, the Bible. That is what I believe and what I have experienced.
  
  I ask again, what is the basis or motivation for your support for humanity? Why is humanity worth it, to you? I told you the Christian basis for our support for humanity in how God provided for their rescue and motivates Christians to help people.
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SirDentposted 14 years ago
Morality is based on what's best for society. I agree with this.

Jesus came to serve mankind and do what is best for society. Believers in Jesus are merely following Him to the best of their abilities.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And, as I told you, if you were, then you wouldn't believe in GOD in the first place. You would accept the fact your human, set a purpose in your life and build your beliefs based on what's best for humanity. Jesus himself didn't teach religion. I keep telling your that. Because, of the time he lived, his teachings were made up of the primitive religion language of that time. That means, he coded his teachings, so he could do his work. Religion added his work, so as to perpetuate the hoax of GOD.
  
  Plain and simple.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I accept that I am human. That is the whole point. I realize that I am not God nor will I ever be God. I am a human being with more faults than most.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus stated, "Follow me." He also stated, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man can come to the Father but by me." He also taught that all men are sinful.
  
  Which of Jesus' teachings do we throw out (in your opinion)?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The word 'father' is the coded word Jesus used, from religion to help spread his teachings...he is claiming the "father" to be Life(consciousness/awareness), he is the guide.
  
  How did he teach men were sinful?
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are going back to New Age when you talk about awareness consciousness. It means you believe you are God or will become God.
  
  Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My dear friend, please. I don't want to be a god. I am human and accept that fact. Mystical GOD power and all, no thanks.
  
  What's before this verse? It seems to be missing something.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
  
  Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
  
  Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
  
  Jesus did indeed sit and eat with sinners and publicans. Is thast not what we are doing here in this forum at the moment?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for the extra verses. Jesus was talking to someone else, so he had to claim them sinners, had he not, there would have been bigger problems for him. If his view wasn't seen like theirs, then he wouldn't be able to help those he wanted. He had enough insight to understand that, because he was aware of what religion was doing to people.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
  
  Jesus was speaking to the pharisees who thought they were in good standing with God. He also knew what was in their hearts.
  
  What you read from it is different than what I read.
  
  The pharisees were keepers of the law. They did everything according to the law of Moses. Jesus knew this. He also knew that their heaerts were not in it like they needed to be. "They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He knew they were corrupted. That's what that tells me. He knew the pharisees were follow a false idol. Jesus is against religion, religion is based on moses. This is where your conflict come in.
  
  Remember, religion came before Jesus. Jesus knew it was wrong.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes He knew they were corrputed. At the same time He knew they followed the law to the letter.
  
  Jesus was against corruption period. He also said, "Follow me." Follwoing is in a sense a religion. There is pure religion, then there is everyhting else.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus wanted to people to follow his teachings, as I stated to you early were.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, I wish that you would enlighten us as to the code that he used. He said in the Sermon on the Mount that inner lust was the same as lust, selfish anger was the same as murder, that anyone who divorced except on the basis of adultery was committing adultery, that we are to love our enemies, that we were to do good actions like giving secretly rather than publicly, that we were to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.
  
  Do you consider yourself perfect like God, Cagsil? Jesus knew that no one's perfect. That's why he told us to pray in his prayer, "Forgive us our debts (trespasses) as we have forgiven our debtors (those who have trespassed against us). However, he was perfect and then died to make believers perfect in the Father's sight in order to give believers progress from imperfection toward perfection, which they will have after death. That's my basis, Cagsil, for affirming and helping humanity.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't.... I think 'Legality' is based on what is best for society, morality for the individual.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Individual make up the collective. If every lived by morality then legality wouldn't be an issue.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your wrong, because if everyone lived for the individual then we would have Chaos. Legality impliments a policy where different moral points of view can live in the same society and not turn that society into an anarchist society.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your logic makes not a lick of sense.
  
  Morality is simple. You either help society or you hurt it.
  
  There isn't enough time for games. The individual is to seek out self-interests, so self-growth can build the foundation for loving spirituality within in oneself.
  
  You base that self-interest on a set moral standard to live by. Thus, you are self-growth driven and do selfless acts to help society push forward.
  
  Chaos is only perceived, when people are viewing morality as their own perspective, unlike it SHOULD BE done. You cannot hurt anyone else and be morally right.
  
  Hope that cleared things up for you.
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Ohmaposted 14 years ago
Cagsil
You have obviously put a lot of thought into this and I agree to a point. The Bible thumpers pounding the pavement and knocking on doors are I feel very selfish. The Zealots that use nearly every post in these furums as a reason to vocalize thier disdain for anyone that may have other beliefs are also selfish, however I know many Christians who chose not to behave this way. I feel that if I were to clump all Christians into one group based on the bad behavior of a few that I would be as wrong and as selfish as the zealots and bible thumpers.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And, your assumption would be correct though. Because, of my reasoned explanation in the OP.
  
  Anyone who has a belief, that is tied to any cause other than humanity is selfish in the action. Forming a belief is an action. It's a mental thought reinforced by faith in oneself to discern truth.
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i agree. there's lots of nice Christians, including some here @ Hubpages, and there's some nasty non-believers, including some here @ HubPages...
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow my eyes aren't working right. Seriously Cosette I thought you said Christmas not Christians...WOW! Love the new avatar by the way
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Being simply nice isn't going to cut it anymore. Wouldn't you agree?
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  well when i see Christians being all mean i think 'well, there ya go' but when they are nice i'm like 'wow, that speaks well for them and their faith', so yes i guess i see them as some sort of role models a tiny bit.
  
  haha...lately i've been noticing my eyes acting a little funny too... i thought it was 'cause i was sick. oh boy sure hope i don't need reading glasses.
  
  hey there. peace and love...you're so kind and sweet all the time.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But, it doesn't matter. How nice they are? They are selfish in their core belief.
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  IMO i think it does matter how nice they are. i'm not sure what you mean by their core belief being selfish. to me the basic Christian teachings are about love. some people are true practitioners of their faith and exhibit loving and caring traits and treat their fellow man, religious or not, with compassion and resepct. then there are spectators who go to church on Sunday and are jerks the rest of the time.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Here! Here!
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SirDentposted 14 years ago
How does anyone know that humanity's move forward is good for humanity? The "move forward" brought about the development of the Atomic Bomb which now is much more powerful than the first ones used.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are kidding right?
  
  So what about bombs. Is destruction all you think about? Can't you think of a better way forward yourself? Come on, use common-sense.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Destruction is all around us and it is hard to ignore it. From fist-fights in bars to all out riots at soccer games.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then it sounds like a collective effort is required. Wouldn't you agree?
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that a collective effort is required. The main thing is, who leads this effort? Who is good enough and unselfish enough to lead the collective effort? There is only one. His name is Jesus.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
I'm not a religious person, but this is sheer nonsense !!
Where's your morality ? Putting all believers in the same bag ?
I argue with individuals ,not with a whole religious system.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently you lack knowledge about life then.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Really ?
  Explain. Let's see if you can.Why I lack knowledge of life ?
  
  Maybe it's you who lack knowledge.
  
  You're full of words, and nothing more.
  Words without content
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If that's how you see it. You would be quite wrong. As your actions have shown, you're mocking me, by challenging me, because you disagreed with my OP. If you disagreed with the reasoning, then now you've learned something new. Accept it, change it want, which I do suggest.
  
  Mine is only to pass long knowledge. And, show things are as they are, not as they appear to be.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course I disagree with the OP !
  I'm free to do so.
  And again. Words without content. You say I learn something new by disagreeing.
  But I disagree, because I know something beforehand.
  And you don't have the the authority to suggest me anything.
  I can't agree with you, because I have another kind of knowledge of life.
  and as I say, 'If you're too deep you can't see what's on the surface'
  I hope you can read irony
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand why you're so sure that what you're saying is correct.
  It's only your point of view.do you think people will follow it ? Doesn't have any serious base. Only your thoughts.
  Don't be so patronizing.
  It's not becoming.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, you fail to see the common-sense. Morality is fairly simple to understand....your action either help humanity or hurt humanity. There is no other understanding.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  I think that you are loseing your self in your own self delusion.
  It seems that you are becoming a slave to your ideals of what YOU think is best for humanity. How exactly is that any diffrent than what you are accusing others of?
  
  We realy must be careful of the things that we hate lest we become worse than them.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Jerami !!
  
  funny thread isn't it ?
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Okay gotta ask Tantrum what is your tattoo of? I can't make it out and I wanna know! lol
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Two tribal dragons
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hay Ms "T" or should I quit sayin that ? Tantrum
  
  I'm not sure if funny is the right word but it certainly is something. I'll mostly hide and watch, I think?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Correct moral guide is what's best for humanity. Wouldn't you agree? There is NO delusions my friend.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And what is correct moral guide for humanity ?
  when you know that morality is relative, and depends on the society or the ethnics?
  It's not the same ethics for Muslims than ethics for Hindus, for example.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Moral guidance is what's best for humanity. Yes!
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The Pope would certainly agree with that.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Morality guidance is what's in the best interest of humanity. To do anything else is selflish and to one's own accord.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, I would love to see some specific moral guidance. Is sex outside of marriage wrong in your morality, or is it OK when the majority of humans think it's OK? Is killing someone out of selfish anger OK if they killed your loved one, or is that action wrong? Is society's killing a convicted serial killer with capital punishment right or wrong? On what basis would you make those judgments in your morality? Would you be correct and everyone else wrong in your morality? You speak in generalities about religion and human morality. Do you dare to be more specific? In my other posts I have been specific in my description of the basis of Christian morality, but I haven't seen your justification for your opinions. I know that I'm a little late in the discussion. I apologize for that tardiness, since I didn't know about hubpages.com 4 months ago.
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goldenpathposted 14 years ago
Just stopped by to say "Hi" to all the family of all faiths and those of none. You are all great individuals!
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  Crazdwriterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey goldenpath nice seeing you.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are joking?
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, how can you reply to Goldenpath with "You are joking?" when you say that you support humanity? I support your complete right to respond as you wish, but Goldenpath also has that right, I believe.
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h.a.borcichposted 14 years ago
Selfish = Hoarding money, resources, etc to comfort myself.

Unselfish = Giving of myself and what I possess to help me and those who I can.

You are saying I have it a$$backwards?
Cags, this makes no sense as far as I can see. I may not subscribe to other religions or faiths, but whatever motivates people to give to the greater good cannot be all bad.
No doubt you will talk down to me for disagreeing, but I cannot agree with what you are "declaring" in the OP.
Sorry. Holly
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Religion dictate a religious view, for a higher cause other than humanity's survival.
  
  In doing so, you put yourself ahead of the rest of the world. That means you put yourself on a pedestal, over that of humanity. That makes you selfish.
  
  Religion teaches a religious view/belief of being selfless. This is the oppposite of being selfish.
  
  The actions as dictated by your religious view/belief is selfishness.
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  h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Ahhhh. There is the misunderstanding My "faith" does NOT teach me to put myself about humanity or anyone. ( I didn't think I saw you at Bible study!)
  We are to feed the hungry, care for the homeless, comfort the widowed, clothe the naked, etc. We are too tired to get up on a pedestal if we had one!
  I think you have assumed too much Cags. Holly
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Holly, there is no assumption in my OP. Sorry. Your faith is to be placed in yourself and humanity, nowhere else. It's selfish to do so.
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cags....
  
  If I put my faith in myself and in humanity, I would be dead or in an institution right now....I couldn't pull myself out of depression, confusion, hurt or sorrow.....I needed help......humanity literially told me to "go to Hell".......
  
  I had a need for a Savior....I needed help! Everyone turned against me. I love mankind, but the humanity I was around didn't love me....Who was selfless toward me?
  
  Nobody but Jesus......
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus' teachings are selfless. Yes, and I'm sorry you were wronged by so many people. I just want to make sure you understand the real meaning behind Jesus' teachings which WERE NOT religious. They were life experience teachings, based on consciousness/awareness of life and those of others.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Where did you get the idea that believers in the Christian faith and any other faith put themselves on a pedestal? H.a. borcich is right. Christian values motivate us to help humanity with our giving and actions. I ask again, why do you think that religion in general makes people selfish? Your experiences with so-called Christians who may have been hypocrites or misinformed Christians is tragic. Please don't judge all Christians by the actions of some in your experience. Jesus called all of us not to judge or condemn, or we will be condemned. Is that part of your morality, Cagsil? It is in mine. I just want to understand your beliefs better.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The second they believed to be saved from death. Duh? I would thought that would be understood, considering you are religious. Hmmm...? Do you understand your religion? Looks/actions say not.
  Again, you are talking about someone who believes god exists. Of course you are going to hear what you want.
  
  First off, it was explained in the OP? Or did you not understand the words that I used?
  
  Religion teaches to be selfless, yet when human beings attempt to become selfless, it leads to selfishness. Providing they do not understand Life. Some people claim to understand life, but believe in a god. Which means they do not understand life.
  
  I don't judge people. I taught myself how not to judge people. I judge the only thing I can judge- their actions.
  
  Do you even understand that? I know I do, but you seem to be throwing it at me, like it's a tool of some sort? As I said in my previous statement- I judge action. I cannot be condemned for the actions of others, but I am allowed to judge them.
  My morality stems from my integrity and my ability to discern truth from life. You want morals? Is it moral for you even be in my face about my beliefs. Like you said, there are people who believe like they do and have a right to it.
  
  You are correct. But, it isn't their right to be ignorant about life. Because, as they are ignorant about life, then they become a burden for the rest of us. Their selfish justification for believing themselves saved from death, burdens every single person on the planet. And, trust me- it's taking it's toll.
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Crazdwriterposted 14 years ago
Cosette you can borromw my contacts! no I think everyone's eyes screw up words once in a while...just something normal (I HOPE! )
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  Jane@CMposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Use cntr & + and your screen gets bigger and bigger!
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goldenpathposted 14 years ago
A lady came into the establishment where I work today. She is a long time customer. She has been battling a blood disease for over thirteen years. She mentioned to me that her recent blood test did not come back favorable for her and that it is probably a matter of weeks or possibly months for her. However, she said that she is tired but is not going to worry about it. She remains active and teaches small children.

Why do I bring this up? When we start feeling pitty for the misfortunes in our own life we need not look far to notice someone in worse shape than we are. Yet for me this woman is a engraved stamp of hope and service to others regardless of the physical handicaps she is suffering. As we continue to post and exchange in these forums perhaps we can remember that there are people out there who are truly suffering worse than us that we can help. Equally as important, though, is the incredible lessons they teach us. Allow the heart to open and the floods of care and action will rush in.

I just wanted to share that. Thanks.
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i agree.
  
  i would also like to add that just because some of us are silent about our personal problems doesn't mean we don't have any.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Would it be nice to have help with those? Have somewhere to turn? Morality says if I can help, I will help.
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you 1000% on that note.....
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  goldenpathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. One of my most beloved songs is called, "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief". Sure, it's a very long song but has deep doctrine concerning service and our responsibility to succor the downtrodden. It's not so much a matter of religion as it is a matter of letting go of the self in pursuit of lifting another.
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  goldenpathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Very true. In fact, I would assume that a great amount of people on HubPages are is the same boat so to speak. Perhaps in the spirit of learning more of one another we could start more threads in a direction of better knowing other hubbers outside of religious views which in here will always breed contention and casts a dimmed light on all involved.
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  Sara Tonynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hello, goldenpath! Good to see you.
  
  You bring up an excellent point. Thank you!
  
  In fact, isn't there some religious adage that goes something like, "I felt sorry for myself because I had no shoes; then I met a man who had no foot..."?
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  goldenpathposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  EXCELLENT! Finally, someone who sees eye to eye on something.
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Goldenpath, Thanks for that......
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Crazdwriterposted 14 years ago
Cool Tantrum! I still need to save money so I can get my tattoos (even though it will be against my parents' wishes Shhhh! )

And COOOL Jane thanks..but even when the screen is bigger I bet I'll still screw up words and see something else
like when Cosette wrote Christians i saw Christmas LMAO

Holly! I love the new picture you put up!
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  h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you...Crazed
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h.a.borcichposted 14 years ago
Cags, I am not buying this point of view. What is this "morality guidance" you claim to be THE right answer? That I should put my faith in mortal men and my flaws as a human being? Or maybe you are suggesting we chuck our faith and follow you? Sounds like you are starting a "religion" of sorts.
I am also confused that your response to the scriptures posted by Sir Dent, you claim to know what Jesus did, and why. Comes off like...I don't believe the imaginary dude but if he was real he did this because it was God's only option?
Sorry, but no thanks. Holly
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Common-sense dictates morality, which says you are not to harm humanity and you are to be selfless in your actions, so you don't.
  
  No, I want you to accept what I'm saying is from the bottom of my heart and in the best interest of humanity. It only makes sense going forward.
  
  I want people to start owning their life, every freaking action they do, when it comes to others.
  
  What's wrong?
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Would you entertain the possibility, Cagsil, that people's common sense and the morality that comes out of it may be flawed because of human imperfection? That flawed human approach takes down what I consider to be your "morality" house of cards. I believe that true morality is based on God and the Bible, a solid foundation. Everyone's common sense is fluid and often based on circumstances, which often change. How do you respond? i'm interested.
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SirDentposted 14 years ago
A thought just came to me.

I am wondering if Cagsil started this thread for selfish reasons. It seems to be getting nearly all the attention.

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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope. My actions are selfless. Just passing along knowledge. Making people think isn't a selfish act.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It was only a joke
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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SirDentposted 14 years ago
A final thought and statement for the night. To say that I am completely selfless would be a lie. I am selfish at times. Probably most of the time actually. I am human and have desires no matter what anyone else thinks I should have or not have.

Sometimes I make mistakes sort of like typos. Other times I make mistakes sort of like auto accidents. We all mess up from time to time. None of us are perfect.

Morality needs to be perfect before it can work right for everyone. My morality is not perfect. It is not even close. I am pressing toward that mark of perfection with everything that is within me.

There is a quote I made a few years ago in a Christian chatroom. If I should search myself and find no pride within me, would I then be proud that I found none and be right back where I started from.

I still feel this way. Good night everyone and God Bless You all.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amen, SirDent! The same to you!
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Good night SirDent. Thank you for your time.
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h.a.borcichposted 14 years ago
So you are saying that common sense is what is needed and that it can't possibly be fostered in a faith nurturing environment?
Do you think I have abdicated my life, responsibility for my life or made God to blame for my life because I am a faith centered person?
My faith is rooted in common sense values to me, whether it is shared by anyone else or no one else. Helping people is not a detriment to humanity. Raising a christian offspring who also uses common sense and sacrifice to help humanity is not selfish.
My faith also reinforces that everyday I have choices to make and that there are consequences for those choices. I am responsible for my life. My faith is what keeps me tring harder to be better.

Cags, I do not see how a person can be deemed selfish just because they have faith. If the betterment of humanity was the prime objective, I suspect you would advocate whatever means brings that about.
I am trying to see your point, really. Holly
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Faith in and of itself, should only be placed in yourself and in other human beings.
  
  To place your faith in a higher cause, then form a belief based on that cause, is morally wrong and selfish.
  
  I didn't say you blamed GOD. GOD doesn't exist is the point. Jesus knew, as I have explained in my conversation with SirDent.
  
  I didn't say it was.
  
  Yes it is, because your selfish, you lead by example.
  
  That faith isn't in GOD, its in yourself, as where it should be. Your will to live, is what keeps you alive. Your will to be the person you want to be. But, as I've stated, if your faith is misplaced, then it's wrong as described.
  
  Not a problem Holly. The betterment of humanity is thru love for being human, accepting yourself and others. Helping whenever possible and providing for yourself. To do so, is to be one with yourself, love yourself, so you can love humanity as a whole. Take richness of being a human being and act in the best interest by acting of the highest moral value you can. Your actions should be selfless, so as to not hurt humanity. Selfishness hurts humanity.
  
  Morality is simple. You either help society or hurt it. By forming a belief based on a higher cause other than that of humanity, you put yourself above it. This is selfish. As laid out. I don't understand what is so difficult.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Now, I understand your humanism--your belief in yourself and others, Cagsil. You have a perfect right to believe in that set of beliefs, but please don't judge those of us who ground our love for our neighbors in our love for God as being selfish. Such a generalization is unfair, in my view. Where did you get the idea that Jesus believed that God doesn't exist, or did I misinterpret your comments? He said that he is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit as one God. I invite you to read the New Testament to see that he claimed to be God and one with his Father, especially in the Book of John.
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  H.A.....
  
  Good response....
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Sara Tonynposted 14 years ago
Hello, Cagsil! I see you're busy stirring the pot again, eh?

Interesting question you asked. I'll have to think about that one. In the meantime I think I'll eat popcorn and watch the show.

(Popcorn, anyone? I have lots! )
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Lots to read already. So, yeah, grab some popcorn and have fun reading.
  
  Not really stirring the pot, per se. Just wanted to put out a simple reasoned statement, which became a self-realization piece from an earlier discussion in the Flood and the Ark thread, which is where this stems from. That I think you would find interesting reading too.
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/33025
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  Sara Tonynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ooooh! Looks interesting! Thanks for the link.
  
  I'm gonna check it out. I'll just have to keep flipping back and forth between 3 threads. Hmm. I might need more popcorn.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Send some popcorn over my way four months from now :-)!
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h.a.borcichposted 14 years ago
Well, I am watching the news and pondering your perspective.

Put my faith in the politicians? no. Terrorists? no. CEO's? no etc, etc, etc. I do not believe that would be a betterment for humanity. Come to think of it - the robber who held a gun to my head, the violent ex husband, nor the drunk driver I have encountered had a "humanity focused" moral compass or a concern for anyone but themselves.

It is ok - call me selfish that I try to help humanity and try harder for my God. My life will continue as I have chose to.

Sleep well, Holly
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But you're missing the point. My point is to change the status quo and in order to do that, I must break the barrier holding it in place.
  
  I understand you help others Holly. I'm not dismissing that. I am dismissing your understanding of Jesus' teaching. Because, it's morally wrong. Religion has you believing something you shouldn't be believing, yet you don't see it, because you only see Jesus' teachings as you have learned them to be.
  
  If you really want to understand his teachings, it is fairly simple. You have to incorporate other knowledge you don't have, to give yourself the best opportunity to understand.
  
  I'm sorry you have trouble, like you have and I can see society has you negative on others. But, my actions are to make people understand the reasoning. It's important people are told the truth about Jesus and his teachings, because they differ from religion altogether.
  
  Jesus wasn't a religion teaching. He dispised religion and it's leaders. The leaders were the ones who executed him because he threatened their rule at the time. Simply because he wasn't teaching religion's word of "GOD", which Jesus knew was false.
  
  I am trying to make people understand, morality is the only foundation to gain the real love and spirituality befit a human being. The only reason I know this is because I feel it running through my body and in my actions of spreading what I have learned.
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cags,
  
  You are confusing me now......this post makes you sound like a Chirstian and your other posts make you sound like the enemy of Christ.....Which is it?
  
  My concern is that you assume that you know our individual understanding of Jesus, our faith and our religion's affiliation....that's error right there....unless you ask for specifics you can only go by what you think someone else thinks...Some of your other posts assumed that we were dummy's who were blindly following some feel good doctrine...
  
  Every believer agrees that Jesus was not "religious", that He showed us ritual was unprofitable and that relationship was the basis for our creation.....We know these things, so what are you fighting us about?
  
  Morality is a fine foundation, but morality must be based on some standard.....everybody doesn't have common sense and everyone's concept of morality is different.....we were taught right from wrong based upon a standard that clearly spelled out the difference between the two
  
  You can't bring two generations of people in one room and have them agree on what morality is......should we let each generation define morality for themselves?
  
  I don't think so.... if we did that I believe we would spiral downward and become very base and unkind. There has to be a standard to which we all can look.....
  
  The US constitution and billof rights is based in the book of Deuteronomy our laws and customs as a nation came directly from that book...(references provided upon request )
  
  Believers love Jesus and believe that we must receive Him as our personal Lord and Savior in order to fully follow Him.....We are dependent upon Him, we are dependent upon His Word and not upon ourselves....
  
  If we have been in the faith for any lengthof time we have studied others, and read much about the history of the times, the political influence and climate, the local customs and beliefs.....some of us have impressive resumes regarding our work and relationship with Jesus...
  
  But, why do we have to talk about all of that when we know that the primary issue is that Jesus is Lord, that there is no other name given among men under Heaven where they might be saved........He is not some silent, non-descript idea, but a living personal being....who tangibly exists and resides within our very spirit.......
  
  What do you believe? ...... Thank you for your time and attention
  your friend Leslieadrienne
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  marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dependency is Control. Control is contradictory to free will. How can there be free will with dependency?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well done.
  
  You have just proven the original post. You must be very, very proud of yourself. I pity you and hope that one day you will allow yourself to be less arrogant and perhaps gain some understanding instead of regurgitating this garbage over and over and over without any understanding whatsoever.
  
  Your loving, loving friend, Mark.
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  donotfearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, I didn't see any arrogance in her post....? Looks to me like she's simply stating the base Christian belief, that's all. I didn't know where you got it from. Interpretation is different for everyone.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But, Jesus' message wasn't meant to be interpreted in the first place. Did you ever think of that?
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  h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cags,
  If Jesus message was not meant to be interpretted in the first place, why have you interpreted it and told believers their version is "morally wrong"? Holly
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because, it was incorporated into religion and misconstrued. The teachings of Jesus is in religion and has nothing to do with religion. When you try to separate the two, you must put the words into proper context.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your confusion is understandable because you don't understand Jesus' teachings.
  
  Why don't you STOP turning things around. I am not a christian and have no affiliation with religion, just like JESUS didn't have any affiliation with religion.
  
  Do you get it? Or are you hard-headed?
  
  I don't assume anything. I've studied your sad religion and deemed it invalid. Because, it's in direct violation human morality value befit human beings. If you are unable to comprehend that, then please say so and I'll be glad to explain it to you.
  
  Foolish thinking on your part, because religious doctrines, at least the MAIN 3 in charge of each religion, are identical. So, asking specifics about what you understand, is the only way to find out what you consider or interpret. The bible is interpreted by people every day of the week, even by scholars and rogue theologians.
  
  It seems like your on point, but also side-stepping the FACTUAL evidence that Jesus' work is IN religion. So, how can YOU say it's not religious? How do you know? Or what do you know about his teachings? Which was the first question I asked to begin this entire conversation, which you never answered.
  
  Do you REALLY know the difference? Because, your actions say different.
  
  Morality was defined long before you were born and long before Jesus was born.
  
  If you continue to change moral standards, then Yes, civilization would be sent downward, but that is only if the moral standard is lessened and NOT strengthened. The higher moral standard is what YOU should be striving for in the first place. To do anything else, is morally wrong actions.
  
  The Moral Standard, the highest cause for human goodness is that all that matters. Morality isn't RIGHTS based, and if you think it is, then you're foolish. Morality determineds whether or not something is right or wrong.
  
  ALL believers believe in GOD and Jesus never believed in GOD, he only used the word "GOD", so as to mask his teachings.
  
  Did you get your information about Jesus' work from a bible? If so, then you have been LIED TO. If you cannot understand how, then ask, don't be ignorant to knowledge.
  
  Now, it would be helpful if you had the correct message he wanted you to have. Now, wouldn't it? Again, if you got your information from any bible, then you have been lied to, yet don't see it, because you refuse to use common-sense.
  
  What do I believe? I am of the understanding that Jesus was a human male, who understood the true meaning of life and he passed along that knowledge thru his teachings. His true teachings are NOT in religious scripture. The religious scripture that has any of his work, has been purposely altered so to show his support of religion, because his work is IN religion. When that's not truly the case.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, I ask again, What is the source of your knowledge about Jesus? Where do you get the ideas about Jesus if it isn't from the Bible? What other source than the eyewitnesses of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection are more authoritative? I just don't understand where you get your ideas. How can you expect people to accept your thoughts without telling us the basis that you use for them? If Jesus' true teachings are not in "religious scripture," where are they?
  
  Do you really mean that people purposely altered Scripture to teach that God is three Persons in one Creator-and-Rescuer-God, that Jesus was born of a virgin, led a perfect life as fully God and fully human, purposely died on a criminal's cross for believers' rescue, and that he rose from the dead to give his believers new life that will last forever?
  
  No human minds could have concocted such a sequence of events. If you believe that people could have conceived of such a tale without its being witnessed by Jesus' followers and revealed by God, then I could come up with some swamp land in Florida that I would be happy to sell you.
  
  That charge by the Muslims that Christians in the early church altered the Bible to produce the present New Testament couldn't have happened. God must have revealed himself as I said above, since God, for example, is a God of grace who freely accepts fallible believers because of Jesus' perfection. Such grace is not a normal human experience because of human selfishness. God had to reveal his quality of grace, because the human minds that produced the Bible could not have come up with that description on their own.
  
  Those are my beliefs about your comments; you have a right to them. However, I would appreciate a response, even though I came here late. Thanks for this post; it's stimulating!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Because, as I study the bible and religions, and ancient world history. I learned about it, more than just what is in the bible. It's not one source to quote for you, it is a collection of research, not only from myself, but 1000's of others before me.
  You are talking about NT and what's "claimed" in it, and you would be most certainly wrong. S/Paul has been discredited, as it is understood that he did not understand Jesus or his work. The literal use of Jesus' work, and not the metaphoric translation is where Christianity detours from the program. Secondly, "eyewitness" account?? Get serious...do you even know at what standpoint humanity(the entire civilization) was at?? Probably not. But, I figured I'd ask. It would take too much to explain.
  Perfect example of mental ineptitude.
  And they would be right. S/Paul was wrong.
  I knew what you beliefs were, before you ever stepped foot in this forum thread. You've been quite actively brow beating people and their beliefs. You act as if there is a god, yet not even mentally capable of understanding what that god is in the first place.
  
  Either way, enjoy. There is no dispute. Religious people are selfish and there is no two ways about it. As I said in my first reply to you.
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  LeslieAdrienneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes and amen to that Holly
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donotfearposted 14 years ago
There is a big difference in being
"Religious".....
and "Spiritual".
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That depends on where or how you achieve your spirituality? Hmmm....?
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cosetteposted 14 years ago
Religious view = Selfishness?

i think in some cases, it is Religious view = smugness.

some (SOME, not all) people think they "walk with god" or have a direct line to God and that they enjoy special perks like angels got their back, etc. and you don't, neener, neener. which is kind of arrogant when you think about it.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My point is to make people understand that Jesus' work inside religion isn't as it appears. There is too much out of context and needs to be learned over again, because of new information that has come to light.
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  donotfearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What new information has come to light?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus' work was NOT religious scripture. It was coded in religious scripture, so as to mean something completely different than what it does.
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  donotfearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh....where is that information so I could look at it? Seriously...
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  go figure !
  
  this is one of the funniest threads I read today !
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  donotfearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I just wanted to know where it came from is all. I mean, is there some written manuscript out there..I'm just asking.
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  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OH ! I'm not laughing at you. the whole thread is funny! The OP is funny !
  About what you ask, of course there's nothing written. Only different points of view from different religious or atheists currents
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  donotfearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Okay,
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you understand the time Jesus lived? Do you read your bible or only parts you want to read?
  
  If you would like to quote anything of Jesus' work, I'll be glad to give you the information you need. Please also, before you do.....READ forum Thread - The Great Flood and The Ark?
  
  When you do- don't just read what you want? Read ALL of the posts, including mine. If you have question when done reading, I'll be glad to clear up any questions you have. Okay, Deal?
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cosetteposted 14 years ago
hey Cags.

i have been following this whole thread and read every response and, like DoNotFear, i am also curious about this 'new light' about Jesus.

never heard that one before.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Try this thread........not the one your in.
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/33025
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SirDentposted 14 years ago
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus' own words recorded here.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Welcome back SirDent.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you. I read back through the thread to see what I missed. That's the reason I posted what I did.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  According to whom?
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Let me put it this way. If you toss out one quote of Jesus you may as well toss them all and say He never existed.
  
  You claim to know exactly what Jesus intended, but you refuse to acknowledge all that He said. In fact you do exactly what many atheists say that believers do. Pick out ceetain parts and use them while ignoring the rest.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't say anything about throwing anything out SirDent. I only asked according to whom?
  
  Whom recorded these words? Who was the individual?
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am not sure who wrote the words down. It has been stated and widely accepted that Luke was the on who wrote them.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, Thank you. I'm checking into it now.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Hey SirDent, curiously weird.

Acts is talking about Christ's ascension to heaven, supposedly witnessed by others? If, Am I correct in what I'm reading.

It that right? Sorry, slow response. I'm a slow reader, especially when religion is concerned. It takes more concentration.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The very beginning is, yes, but the rest is about the disciples and their ministries. It also speaks of Saul's (Paul's) conversion.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey SirDent, I see you're back.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am back yes for a shot time. Real life somtimes gets in the way of important things, I mean fun discussions.
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Sara Tonynposted 14 years ago
Sorry I'm late. I was trying to help another hubber.

But I brought popcorn for everyone!

Now I'll take me seat and quietly watch the show.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Btw- to answer your question from the other day- If I'd learn of where Jesus was before his teen years or if I knew anything about his trek thru China?
  
  I was able to learn that Jesus, at a very young age, was to live with Noblemen. I don't know where? I also don't know or haven't come across anything that said to be to account for such a trek to China. This seems to be more rumor, theology(assumed) to account for time.
  
  Not even christians or religion can account for that time. It subjective conjecture, because it lacks any real factual evidence to prove one way or another.
  
  Jesus's work Vs. Moses which one of these is real? Or they both real? Were both not real?
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  Sara Tonynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Pinch me, am I real?
  
  I know of no real proof of Jesus traveling to China but then again there's no proof he stayed put either. All information on him disappears for about 18 years so...?
  
  I do find the possibility interesting though because a lot of the preaching and miracles that are attributed to Jesus during the final 3 years of his life seem to have a Chinese influence.
  
  That is, many of the lessons Jesus taught are similar to teachings of the Buddha. (Which Buddha, I dunno; there's more than one even though people think of Buddha as one individual -- the most recent Buddha.)
  
  Also, his "laying of the hands" to heal people is similar to the Chinese art of Reike.
  
  To sum things up, the theory is that Jesus traveled to China, India and other places during those missing 18 years. And in the process he studied the teachings of Buddha and Hindu gods and goddesses. When he returned home, his teachings where then based on the knowledge he had gained through his travels.
  
  No proof, this is true. But it's certainly an interesting theory with indications that it might be correct.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
You now want to tell me how this related to what I was originally talking about?

You've completely detoured the conversation, into other aspects of religion. You MUST separate Jesus from religion.

There is a direct conflict. Jesus' teachings shouldn't be in religion. That is my problem with it.
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SirDentposted 14 years ago
You stated that Jesus taught unselfishness. I agree with that by the way. But what you failed to realize is that the words of Jesus teach only to certain ones at times. Jesus spent a lot of time with sinners as we already established earlier in this thread.

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples at this time just before He ascends to the cloud. We can go back to before this time also and see what he said about the comforter (Holy Ghost).

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,

Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus even stated that the world cannot recieve this Comforter. These are the teachings of Jesus. You cannot follow some and say the rest is null.

How can the world follow the teachings of Jesus, as you stated, when the world cannot recieve what He gives?
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They need to realize their is a difference? And, not ignore people who claim their is a problem. Then they ask the rights questions to the right people.
  
  You want to strip Jesus from religion and learn about his teachings, then open your eyes to the conflict?
  
  Jesus' works are not religious, because he refused to teach religion's false idol. However, neatly, Jesus' works were incorporated into religion.
  
  How is this made possible? By the simple fact that the religious establishment at the time, feared chaos, because of his execution. It is what became Christianity.
  
  Everything Jesus directly said to a disciples, only use direct quotes they make. It might help a little bit, if you knew how far humanity had come to that point.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. Destruction is all around us. Most of it comes from war and crimes. There is definitely a difference between just going through life and following the teachings of Jesus.
  
  The questions have been answered many times throughout history. Jesus said, "You had the prophets."
  
  The conflict is actually internal and it takes place in every individual. The flesh against the spirit. It is how the first battle started.
  
  Jesus said, "Follow Me." Religong in and of itself is a following of something, be it rules, a person, an object, an idea etc. . . Jesus was against false beliefs then and against them even now.
  
  The religious at the time feared the teachings of Jesus because it brought everyone to the same level. No big I's and little You's.
  
  Jesus gave His life. No one could take it actually. He could not die unless He gave His life.
  
  Everything recorded that Jesus said is written in the Bible. You keep talking about removing if from religion, but quotes are quotes. Jesus spoke of things that had never been revealed yet to man.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
But, what you're failing to realize is that there is no sinners. The term "sin" is a religion word. Your basing all of Jesus' work on religion's background. You cannot do this. It holds no foudation and too many things contradict.

This stupid word, is based on religion's mystic teaching, NOT on Jesus' teachings.

He only applies it to code. How do you think he was able to do his teaching? He coded his words and used a lot of the terms of the religious language. That is how limited the language was during his life?

Can you grasp how limited the language is truly? You read it.

Jesus' is not teaching religion. Therefore, separate out the religious terminology, and discern the truth of his words.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing befall thee.
  
  Joh 8:11 And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more.
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SirDentposted 14 years ago
I was waiting for more from you Cags. I will reply in the AM. Good night.
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sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago
Boy, I knew you would bleed this for all it's worth.

What organizations in America raise the most funds for the under privlaged around the world?

a. sexual deviates of America
b. we don't need no stinking God atheists
c. the over-sexed crack spackalers
d. It's all about me g_ _ Americans
e. doctors for abortion
f. women for the death of children
g. the higher calling bong makers
h. thats not your money it's our money socialists
i. the mommies for teaching children how to have sex
j. nambo
k. everything has feelings eating disorderers
l. women who want to be men
m. men who want to be women
n. radical radicals
o. the national organization of fema-nazis
p. the give islama-nazis huggers
q. aclu
r. the lefter than left leftists
s. women not suitable for marraige
t. the SUV haters
u. the no compitition competitors
v. the coffee shop crowd
w. the red, blue, green hair people
x. the if it's good ruiners
y. mexicans for the liberation of America
z. or none of the above(that means somebody else handles the charity thing)
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hysterical !
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  Hokeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Type it? More like cut and paste.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Whatever! Whats your answer?
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Nice selfish statement. Now, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?

And, you went through all that typing, to create such as sweet response to the original post of the thread.

You show plenty of depth on the disturbed side of nature of man.

Interesting to know. Thank you for sharing.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Theres the company you liberals keep, it's a real pretty picture,HUH? Yes, we know what we are up against. You didn't pick an answer or you already know the answer. I have never heard of an atheist missionary, I wonder why? Maybe they're good at the talking part and not so good at the doing part.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
You have included everyone on earth except a few zealots!
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A to Z! Whats your answer big boy!
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  You know how many people drink coffee?
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Only the ones that take sugar, because everyone knows,"a little bit of sugar helps the medicine go down!"
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OK, well I'm about to make me a late with two sugars... strong! Ya up for one?
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  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Only if it's on me!
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago
It's ok guys I already know the answer.
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Don Wposted 14 years ago
"Religious view = Selfishness?"

I would restate that as: Human nature = Selfishness.

To be human is to be selfish. No one is exempt from that. I'm not sure why you think this is a revelation.
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Internetwriter62posted 13 years ago
Cagsil, I read your post and you contradict yourself. First you say that the Bible teaches unselfishness, than you say we have to abandon our Bible to be unselfish. Why if our faith teaches us to be unselfish would abandoning it make us better for mankind?

What will guide us then?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's because your view is already skewed by what you have learned.
  I find your words condescending to yourself. WOW! The bible supposedly teaches one how to be selfless. Use the correct word. You learn about it, but in the end it makes you selfish.
  It isn't abandoning being selfless. Again, use the correct word, it's abandoning the ideology of god, which if you follow doctrine you would find out is false.
  I would certainly hope you could guide yourself? Duh! I thought that was obvious.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Religious view = Selfishness?

Hi friends

The sum total of truthful faith is sincerity towards the Creator-God Allah YHWH and sincerity towards the fellow human beings. It is the Skepticism which is insincere to both.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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