Romney Caught Lying Again in Ohio

1. 65

   Ralph Deedsposted 11 years ago

   Romney's Lie: Romney told a rally in Defiance, Ohio, that he'd "seen a story--that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by Italians, is thinking of MOVING ALL PRODUCTION TO CHINA."
   
   The truth: Chrysler is in the process of investing $500 million at a Jeep plant in Toledo, Ohio adn will hire an additional 1,050 workers there.
   
   Romney's lying ad:  "Who will do more for the auto industry? Not Barack Obama."
   
   The truth: Romney's ad ignores the fact that in late 2008 Romney wrote an editorial for the NY Times in which he counseled against any heavy goverment investment to prop up GM and Chrysler. AUTO EXPERTS AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS HAVE SAID REPEATEDLY THAT WITHOUT GOVERNMENT INVESTMENT FROM THE BUSH AND OBAMA ADMINISTRATIONS, THE COMPANIES COULD HAVE BEEN LIQUIDATED BECAUSE PRIVATE FUNDS WERE FROZEN BY THE RECESSION....[Before Obama was sworn in in 2009, former President George W. Bush issued the first government financial assistance for GM and Chrysler.]
   
   [Based on an article in the Detroit Free Press Monday October 29, 2012. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti … 310290039]

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      Repairguy47posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Newsflash-Bush was wrong! The lie is what you are trying to sell, we know what Romney said and he was right.

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         Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         That's a tiny minority view. You're entitled to your opinion. Why not try to support it with a few facts? As someone said "Opinions are like axxholes. Everybody's got one."

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            Repairguy47posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            You think I care if you believe me, I don't. Bush was wrong about the bailouts so was Obama.

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               livewithrichardposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               This is the first time I think I have ever said this but, Bush was right!!! Think I care if you care?

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                  Repairguy47posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Not at all, you are entitled to your belief, doesn't make you right but you can believe you are.

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               Quilligrapherposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Hey there, RepGuy. Nice to see you here.
               
               Did you happen to notice that Ralph expressed an opinion and backed it up with verifiable data from a reasonably reliable source?
               
               Your post also expresses an opinion but lacks any credible support from any source. Unless you can provide some facts, the opinion becomes nothing more than just more unsupported innuendo.
               
               I hope this election is ultimately decided by the facts. Do you have any to support your claim above? It seems Mr. Romney could sure use your help explaining this “moving all production to China” gaffe.
               Q.

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                  Repairguy47posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Its my opinion, I don't need to find someone else to back up what I think. That doesn't make someone right because someone else has that opinion or didn't you know that?

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                     TIMETRAVELER2posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Yes, but what you think is supposed to be based on the truth, which is what facts are.  If you just offer an opinion based on an emotional response, it is basically meaningless.

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                  American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Quill,
                  
                  How are you my friend/ I hope you are not in the path of Sandy.
                  
                  The link from Ralph did not work, I wish it did. It could be an issue with the storm why it did not work. But I hate to break it to everyone, The Romney ad was right. The article below quotes the COO, so it is coming from the horses mouth. Now they are not shipping all Jeep production to China as of right now, just what they use to produce there back in 2009, but they are contemplating the full move. Hence why they will not be making any big investments as Ralph said his article showed.
                  
                  [i]"In a Bloomberg interview, Jeep's president said the automaker plans to restore Jeep production in China, suspended in 2009, and is considering making all Jeeps in China. "Fiat SpA, majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers' operations in the region," reported the business wire service.
                  
                  Mike Manley, chief operating officer of Fiat and Chrysler in Asia and president of the Jeep brand, told Bloomberg, "We're reviewing the opportunities within existing capacity" as well as "should we be localizing the entire Jeep portfolio or some of the Jeep portfolio" to China."[i/]
                  
                  http://washingtonexaminer.com/jeep-an-o … I9UpW9fB2B
                  
                  [i]"Fiat is in “very detailed conversations” with its Chinese partner, Guangzhou Automobile Group Co. (2238), about making Jeeps in the world’s largest auto market, said Mike Manley, chief operating officer of Fiat and Chrysler in Asia. [i/]
                  
                  http://washingtonexaminer.com/jeep-an-o … I9UpW9fB2B
                  
                  Romney told the truth.

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                     LiamBeanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Then Chrysler is lying, is that what you are saying?
                     
                     Someone misread the Bloomberg report. I'm shocked I tell you shocked.
                     
                     "Chrysler currently builds all Jeep SUV models at plants in Michigan, Illinois and Ohio. Manley referred to adding Jeep production sites rather than shifting output from North America to China."

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                  2. 65

                     Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Nope. Romney lied. Please admit your error!
                     
                     http://www.freep.com/article/20121026/B … a-is-false
                     
                     Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney repeated a false claim Thursday night that Chrysler Group may move all Jeep vehicle production to China, drawing criticism from the Obama campaign, which said the Michigan native had blatantly skewed a news wire story.
                     
                     Romney’s comments came the same day that the Free Press reported that 1,100 new Chrysler workers will begin making the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango SUVs at a plant in Detroit next week.
                     
                     “I saw a story today that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China,” Romney said during a rally in Defiance, Ohio, before 12,000 cheering supporters, according to several reports. “I will fight for every good job in America, I’m going to fight to make sure trade is fair, and if it’s fair, America will win.”
                     
                     Romney apparently was referencing conservative bloggers who misrepresented a Bloomberg story from Monday that discussed Chrysler’s decision to consider starting Jeep production in China, the world’s largest new-vehicle market.
                     
                     Gualberto Ranieri, Chrysler’s vice president of communications, criticized those stories Thursday even before Romney made his comments.
                     
                     “Let’s set the record straight: Jeep has no intention of shifting production of its Jeep models out of North America to China,” Ranieri said. “It’s simply reviewing the opportunities to return Jeep output to China, for the world’s largest auto market. U.S. Jeep assembly lines will continue to stay in operation.”
                     
                     A spokesperson for the Romney campaign declined to comment.
                     
                     In fact, Chrysler is investing $500 million at its Toledo North Assembly Plant and plans to add 1,105 new workers by the third quarter of 2013 to build an all-new SUV that will replace the Jeep Liberty.
                     
                     Production of the new SUV will begin next summer and the hiring process for the new workers, who are scheduled to start by the next fall, has begun, said Chrysler spokeswoman Jodi Tinson.
                     
                     Romney’s comments were immediately skewered by auto industry observers and Romney’s political opponents because Chrysler added about 7,000 workers in the U.S. and Canada since emerging from Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 2009.
                     
                     The company is planning to add about 900 workers at its pickup plant in Warren by March.

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               AMFredenburgposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               The bank bailouts have been paid back in full, with interest.

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                  Repairguy47posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Not true.
                  
                  http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/

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                     LiamBeanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     And though Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae have not paid back the initial investment they have paid close to 25% interest on those loans. Damn! I wish I had an investment that paid a quarter of the value of the loan.

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            Pearldiverposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Now... THAT'S a Lie......
            
            I've met Politicians with 2 of them! 
            
            
            Must I post photos though????   

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               Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Photos would be helpful!

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      habeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Good thing Obama has never lied or been wrong, huh?

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         Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Yep. Romney's the champ liar.

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            habeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            

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      LiamBeanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      There's a little more to this story. Not only is Chrysler not moving jobs to China, they are exploring selling Jeep products in China. The reason? China is now the largest car market in the world.
      
      “Let’s set the record straight: Jeep has no intention of shifting production of its Jeep models out of North America to China, It’s simply reviewing the opportunities to return Jeep output to China, for the world’s largest auto market. U.S. Jeep assembly lines will continue to stay in operation.” -- Gualberto Ranieri, V.P. information officer, Chrysler

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         Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks, Liam. Every little bit helps, or should help!

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      AMFredenburgposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I hate to support Romney *at all,* but this may have been not a lie so much as once again running with a rumor without checking facts, which is a bad habit for the guy -- he is a rash human being and doesn't belong in the position of commander in chief.

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         Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         That's possible, but Romney has lied, and changed his position so many times. Before putting out a TV ad somebody should be checking the claims to make sure they are remotely accurate at least.

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            AMFredenburgposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with you; and he's told plenty of lies. Maybe the fault is mine; I have a hard time as a human being with some faith in humanity believing that these people have committed as many immoral acts, including lying and downright thievery, as they have. It boggles the mind. And they get away with it!

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               AMFredenburgposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Well, you were right, Ralph. There's a new ad out featuring the misinformation about Jeep. The man's whole campaign has been based on lies, innuendos and sneering, superior attitudes aimed at making an intelligent, compassionate, highly capable man seem incompetent and weak. I don't think I will ever forgive Romney for the character assassination he has engaged in with President Obama, and I am shocked that large segments of the American electorate can't see what a morally bankrupt human being Romney is.

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      tirelesstravelerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The CBS morning new said Italians were moving Jeep to Italy.  They need the jobs in Italy and its cheaper to make them there and ship to US.

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      Jillian Barclayposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It never surprises me when Romney lies. What has confounded me from the beginning is that when he is caught, he doubles down. Is that the mark of a compulsive liar, or a pathological liar? I can never keep the two straight...

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         Mighty Momposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Yes.

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      Credence2posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Now Romney getting all populist on us all the sudden. He is a chemeleon who changes his position daily. When he thinks no one is looking he tells the working men and women of this country what he really thinks about them  If the people in the industrial upper midwest fall for this, then I don't know!

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2. 76

   psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

   You know what I think is worn with politics in the US?
   
   'The other guys lies too' is seen as an acceptable excuse.  It negates any need to have your own candidate do the right thing.
   
   It makes a choice between two liars completely inevitable as both sides accept and defend their own lies. as justified by those of the opposition.
   
   Let the race to the bottom begin.

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      rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I agree. The race to the bottom is littered with forgotten promises.

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3. 0

   Ghaelachposted 11 years ago

   Hi Ralph.
   Do you know what I find fascinating, it's that the man/woman who writes the speeches/lies for those two guys Obama/Romney, well he must be writing for these politicians over here in Europe. They all smell of the same fish or is it that they are all tard with the same brush.

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4. 61

   Repairguy47posted 11 years ago

   http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/06/autos/a … index.html

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      Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks. That's a fair summary. Good article.

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5. 73

   William F. Torpeyposted 11 years ago

   Romney "caught lying" is like the Pope being "caught praying."

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   1. 65

      Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Ha! Ha! So true!

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6. 65

   Ralph Deedsposted 11 years ago

   Chrysler is doing okay thanks to Obama.
   
   "Chrysler earned $381 million in the third quarter, an 80% improvement from a year earlier, the company said today, as both sales and profit-per-vehicle increased during its fifth straight profitable quarter.
   
   "Last year, Chrysler earned $212 million for the three months ending Sept. 30.
   
   "The Auburn Hills automaker, which emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy in June 2009 with the assistance of federal loans, has rebounded faster than almost anyone expected.
   
   "The company has added more than 16,400 jobs as its U.S. sales have increased during the last 30 consecutive months."
   
   http://www.freep.com/article/20121029/B … 81-million

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      American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Let's be honest and put things into perspective. ALL auto companies are doing well as a result of auto sales jumping. What is important to note is they are not gaining any market share. Chrysler saw the slowest jump with a sales increase of 15% netting $381 million. Compare to Ford which took in no Obama Money turned in a net profit of 1.6 Billion dollars.
      
      Now you can keep believing Romney is lying by believing the blogs you post, I tend to follow a more credible source like Bloomberg report who got their information from the horses mouth, the VP at Fiat.

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         Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I didn't post any blogs. Only factual newspaper articles. Apparently you didn't bother reading them. Keep drinking the Breitbart/Romney Koolaid!

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            American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Hmmmm I seem to remember quoting the Bloomberg Report, I guess you missed that point.
            
            Detroit Free Press, yea no agenda theire Got some dough to bet says they did not endorse Romney.

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7. 60

   American Viewposted 11 years ago

   Well Well, Look who AT Fiat made a statement over the weekend and who says the story is true.
   
   [i] "Even the liberal Mother Jones magazine admitted that "technically, every word" of Romney's ad was true.[i/]
   
   http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government … ama-s-Side

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      Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      "Romney slightly misspoke on the stump (like Obama has done numerously when he has mistakenly slipped and said he wanted to outsource American jobs or build wind turbines in China). Jeep is not thinking about moving "all" of its production to China. They are thinking of moving some of its production to China, which is what Romney's commercial correctly claimed. "
      
      Breitbart is a bigger liar than Romney. Chrysler isn't moving ANY jeep production from Ohio, Michigan or anywhere in the U.S. to China or Europe. Rather, thanks to Obama, Chrysler is EXPANDING jeep production and employment in Ohio and Michigan!  Any jeep production in China will be for the China market.

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         American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Ralph, believe what you want. Even if God himself came down and told you they were moving some of the operations back to China you would not believe him.

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8. 75

   Mighty Momposted 11 years ago

   Latest from Chrysler Group, as reported in Chicago Tribune CARS section.
   It appears that if Fiat IS going to put any Jeep manufacturing in China, it would be IN ADDITION to not INSTEAD OF the thousands of manufacturing jobs being added -- and that have alreayd been added (11k plus -- nice!) in the US.
   
   So the main message Romney is trying to send to Ohioans that they are losing Chrysler jobs to China is still as false as it ever was.
   
   
   http://www.chicagotribune.com/classifie … 6532.story
   
   Bernie Woodall
   
   Reuters
   
   12:44 p.m. CDT, October 30, 2012
   
   DETROIT (Reuters) - Chrysler Group LLC Chief Executive Sergio Marchionne reaffirmed on Tuesday that the company is not moving Jeep vehicle production out of the United States to China after it became an issue in the U.S. presidential campaign.
   
   Chrysler in an October 25 blog post had already rejected a statement made that day to a crowd in Ohio by Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, that Chrysler was thinking of moving all Jeep production from Ohio to China.
   
   Marchionne told employees by email on Tuesday, "I feel obliged to unambiguously restate our position: Jeep production will not be moved from the United States to China."
   
   Romney, speaking last week to a crowd in Defiance, Ohio, said that he had read a news article that said Chrysler's Jeep brand is considering moving "all production to China."
   
   Later, the Romney campaign aired an advertisement that did not repeat the move of production from Ohio but said that Chrysler is considering making Jeeps in China, which Chrysler has said.
   
   U.S. President Barack Obama's campaign, in its own ad, said Romney was making a "false claim" and noted that Chrysler had challenged Romney's statement.
   
   Ohio is seen by many political pollsters one of several key "swing" states in next Tuesday's presidential election.
   
   Chrysler has been managed by Fiat SpA since it emerged from its 2009 bankruptcy, when the Italian company took 20-percent ownership. Marchionne is chief executive of both Chrysler and Fiat.
   
   Fiat has since increased its ownership to 58.5 percent after achieving several goals, including building a fuel-efficient compact car made in the United States and increasing Chrysler sales outside its North American base.
   
   Romney's ad and his comments in Defiance state that Chrysler has been taken over by an Italian company. Chrysler is based in Auburn Hills, Michigan, outside Detroit. Defiance is about an hour's drive to the a main Jeep plant in Toledo, Ohio.
   
   Chrysler as early as June 2011 had said it was considering adding Jeep production in China.
   
   "We are working to establish a global enterprise and previously announced our intent to return Jeep production to China, the world's largest auto market, in order to satisfy local market demand, which would not otherwise be accessible," said Marchionne in the email on Tuesday.
   
   And he also reaffirmed previous Chrysler announcements about increasing its Jeep production at plants in Ohio, Illinois and Detroit.
   
   "We will invest more than $1.7 billion to develop and produce the next-generation Jeep SUV, the successor of the Jeep Liberty -- including $500 million directly to tool and expand our Toledo Assembly Complex and will be adding about 1,100 jobs on a second shift by 2013," his email to employees said.
   
   Marchionne said that Chrysler, including Jeep, has added 11,200 jobs in the United States since 2009.
   
   "Jeep assembly lines will remain in operation in the United States and will constitute the backbone of the brand," said Marchionne in the email. "It is inaccurate to suggest anything different."
   
   (Reporting By Bernie Woodall; Editing by Tim Dobbyn)

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9. 75

   Mighty Momposted 11 years ago

   FOUR PINOCCHIOS for the new Romney campaign ad.
   
   http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac … pmpolitics

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      American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      MM,
      
      Notice it is only the strong left leaning media that is trying to discredit the story?

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         Jillian Barclayposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Since when is GM the strong, left-leaning media?

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            American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Who said anything about GM, we are talking about the media articles lie Washington post, Detroit free press. GM is not media, unless you know something the rest of us does not know.

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         Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Not true. The NYTimes's editorial page is liberal, but it's news is accurate. And the Detroit Free Press is a Gannett paper, basically centrist, not liberal. Moreover, both GM and Chrysler have said that Romney's TV ads are not true.

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10. 60

    readytoescapeposted 11 years ago

    Always trying to perpetuate a falsehood; Sergio Marchionne, the head of Fiat which is the company that took over Chrysler did in fact say they would be moving Jeep manufacturing to China.
    
    He has since walked back that statement by saying that only Jeeps intended for the Chinese Market will be manufactured in China. He is currently in talks with Guangzhou Automotive Group to takeover manufacturing of these vehicles. Given that to date all Jeeps are manufactured in the US even the walk back statement proves Romney Correct.
    
    It can be surmised that this walk back is a public relations maneuver to not alienate the American Marketplace since initial plans to move were publicized as part of the American Election.
    
    Marchionne is also planning to kill the Compass and Patriot lines.
    
    Romney Did Not Lie As usual

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       LiamBeanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Wrong! You are basing this on an article that was written based on a Bloomberg article. Unfortunately the author you read mis-read the Bloomberg article.

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          American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Sorry, but you are not accurate, it was a direct quote from the Bloomberg report. Ans serdio is not the only Fiat rep to go public with a statement.
          
          [i] "Fiat is in “very detailed conversations” with its Chinese partner, Guangzhou Automobile Group Co. (2238), about making Jeeps in the world’s largest auto market, said Mike Manley, chief operating officer of Fiat and Chrysler in Asia. "[i/]
          
          Here is the actual Bloomberg articel.
          http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-2 … limbs.html
          
          I cannot find the article now but on Saturday another board member at Fiat also confirmed it. The reason is not just sales in China as someone suggested here, it is the fact that their sales in all of Europe and Asia are very strong.

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             Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             The TRUTH is Chrysler is moving nothing from Ohio or Michigan to China. They are investing several hundred million dollars in U.S. facilities and will be hiring many new workers. Whatever they do in China will be engineered in the U.S. and sold in China. Same for GM.
             

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                American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Again Ralph, keep believing what you want, I believe the people from Fiat.

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                   Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   Fine. Do you actually know what the people from Fiat have said?: 1. They are expanding their investment and hiring for Jeep production in the U.S. They may also be producing jeeps in China FOR THE CHINA market. That strengthens the company overall. GM has said much the same thing. Both companies have complained that Romney's statements are inaccurate and misleading. What does it take for you to get that through your head?
                   
                   Here's what Politifact Ohio had to say about Romney's false ads in today's Cleveland Plain Dealer (rated Romney's ads "pants on fire).
                   
                   http://www.politifact.com/ohio/

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                      LiamBeanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      There's another facet to this. The Bloomberg article says:
                      
                      "Guangzhou’s plant in Changsha in central China has initial annual capacity of 140,000 cars and is capable of eventually assembling 500,000 vehicles per year. The automakers will add production of a new vehicle to the factory roughly every 12 months and began building the Fiat Viaggio compact there in June (2013)*."
                      
                      My reading of this is that it takes the factory twelve months to begin manufacturing a new model at the Cuangzhou plant. Since the next model slated to be built there is the Fiat Viaggio that's at least twenty-four months before any Jeep model could possibly be built there. In that time Jeep will be ramping up production here in the states to meet market demands (exports to) China. Two years is a long time and a downturn in the auto market, changes in China's prosperity, possible changes in trade agreements, all could affect sales.
                      
                      So whether or not Jeep will build in China is moot at this point. Almost anything can happen in two years.
                      
                      * Since June 2012 has come and gone I'm assuming they mean 2013.

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                   Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   Dude the company he talked about said that is completely false... time to admit you're wrong.

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                      Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      I don't recall American View ever admitting he was wrong. I could be wrong.

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       Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       As a published writer I'd think you'd value your own credibility and do a little more factchecking before making a fool of yourself. Read the previous comments and links. Chrysler is investing more in the US and adding more than 1,000 jobs. Marchione isn't moving anything to China. He may produce Jeeps in China FOR THE CHINA MARKET. He's not moving anything from Ohio to China or anywhere else. And if would be nice if once in a while the Romney supporters would admit it when somebody proves them wrong. But it rarely happens. This makes honest and productive discussion impossible.

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          readytoescapeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Feb 28 2012: “Sergio Marchionne confirmed Tuesday he has signed an agreement to build Jeeps in Russia”
          
          From Bloomberg: Oct 2012
          
          “Mike Manley, COO of Fiat and Chrysler in Asia told Bloomberg that Fiat is in “very detailed conversations” with its joint venture partner Guangzhou Automobile (GAC). Manley is currently evaluating whether his company should “be localizing the entire Jeep portfolio or some of the Jeep portfolio.”
          
          From Washington Post: 10/29/12
          
          “To counter the severe slump in European sales, Marchionne is considering building Chrysler models in Italy, including Jeeps, for export to North America. The Italian government is evaluating tax rebates on export goods to help Fiat. Marchionne may announce details of his plan as soon as Oct. 30, the people said.”
          
          Mother Jones magazine admitted that “technically, every word” of Romney’s ad was true.

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             Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             I don't continue debating with people like you who aren't big enough to admit when they are wrong. Bye, Bye!

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                readytoescapeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                You mean people that disprove your false assertions.

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11. 65

    Ralph Deedsposted 11 years ago

    ROMNEY'S PANTS ARE ON FIRE!!
    
    GM and Chrysler call Romney out on his lying TV ads in Ohio which are likely to boomerang against the candidate. Here are links and exerpts from articles in this morning's Detroit Free Press and New York Times.
    
    http://www.freep.com/article/20121026/B … |FRONTPAGE
    
    "Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney repeated a false claim Thursday night that Chrysler Group may move all Jeep vehicle production to China, drawing criticism from the Obama campaign, which said the Michigan native had blatantly skewed a news wire story.
    
    "Romney’s comments came the same day that the Free Press reported that 1,100 new Chrysler workers will begin making the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango SUVs at a plant in Detroit next week. ..."
    
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/us/po … f=politics
    
    "2 American Automakers Rebut Claims by Romney
    By JIM RUTENBERG and JEREMY W. PETERS
    Published: October 30, 2012
    
       " TOLEDO, Ohio — Mitt Romney’s latest advertising campaign suggesting that the auto bailout recipients Chrysler and General Motors were shifting jobs to China drew him into a public argument with top executives at both companies, who condemned the advertisements as false on Tuesday.
    
    “The ad is cynical campaign politics at its worst,” Greg Martin, a spokesman for General Motors, said in an interview late Tuesday. “We think creating jobs in the U.S. and repatriating profits back in this country should be a source of bipartisan pride.”
    
    "General Motors was pulled into the fray on Tuesday after Mr. Romney began running a new radio advertisement in which an announcer says, “Barack Obama says he saved the auto industry, but for who, Ohio or China?”
    
    "It went on to say that General Motors and Chrysler were planning to increase the number of cars they manufacture in China: “What happened to the promises made to autoworkers in Toledo and throughout Ohio?”
    
    "It was a variation on a television ad running here that reports that Chrysler, which produces Jeeps here, is planning to “return Jeep output to China.”
    
    "The spot has been widely criticized for leaving the misleading impression that Chrysler is planning to shift jobs here in Toledo to China. In fact, Chrysler says that it is discussing new plants for sales in China that do not affect American hiring, and that it is adding workers in Toledo. The spot earned a “Pants on Fire” designation from the fact-checking site Politifact. .."

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    Mighty Momposted 11 years ago

    So what is the problem here? Not believing the source of the information because only the "liberal" media is picking it up?
    How about "News Track INDIA?"
    Is that a satisfactory, reasonably unbiased source?
    
    Is the problem that the president of Fiat which now owns Chrysler is Italian?
    And/or that he has said Fiat DOES plan to manufacture SOME Jeeps in China to reopen that market?
    ADDING manufacturing capabilities in China is a far, far cry from MOVING manufacturing from Ohio to China. Which is the crux of the Romney ads.
    
    Is the problem that it is only one official from a car company that is calling Romney on his MISLEADING, FEARMONGERING ads?
    
    Well, now we have TWO.
    And I think GM states the issue pretty darned graphically:
    
    You can defend your parallel universe all you want. But it's still not reality.
    
    
    http://www.newstrackindia.com/index.jsp
    
    Washington, Oct. 31 (ANI): Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney's auto bailout Ohio radio ad is prompting some pushback from General Motors, who have termed the ad as part of a 'parallel universe'.
    
    "We've clearly entered some parallel universe during these last few days. No amount of campaign politics at its cynical worst will diminish our record of creating jobs in the U.S. and repatriating profits back to this country," Politico quoted GM spokesman Greg Martin, as saying.
    
    It comes after a Romney campaign ad attacked the Obama administration's handling of the auto bailout and says that the president 'took General Motors and Chrysler into bankruptcy', Politico reports.
    
    According to the report, the ad says the GM Motors cut 15,000 jobs "under President Obama" but is going to double its China production.
    
    The Romney ad has been called as a sign of 'desperation' for the Republican in Ohio, who is terrified of losing in the major swing state as Obama is currently leading there.
    
    "When the American auto industry and a million workers' jobs were on the line, Mitt Romney turned his back. Now, he's pretending it never happened and is trying to scare Ohioans by repeating a blatant falsehood that Chrysler is moving its Jeep operations to China," an Obama spokesperson had said. (ANI)

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    Mighty Momposted 11 years ago

    It's always been moot.
    Fiat can build cars in every country in the world if they wish.
    Doesn't change the fact that they are not taking jobs out of Ohio to do so.
    And that is the inherent dishonesty of Mr. Romney's ad.
    It's designed to scare low information voters in Ohio into believing a cause and effect that is simply not true.
    Neither the cause (Obama bailing out the auto industry, during which time Chrysler restructured and got bought by Fiat which somehow failed Ohions or Chrysler)
    or the effect (that Italian owner Fiat is closing up shop in Ohio and moving to China)
    is true.
    False premise.
    Dirty pool.

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       JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       MM, don't you like to criticize people for outsourcing work, when they could create jobs in America?

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          Mighty Momposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Good for you for twisting this argument around so that the left looks somehow unpatriotic.
          Is there some right wing central clearinghouse where these distortions get thought up and then disseminated by the pundits and email chains?
          Or did you think this one up by yourself??
          
          This is the classic double-bind the right is so adept at.
          Reminds me of a certain period of history when ribbon stickers stating "Support Our Troops" were ubiquitous.
          Bushco would not tolerate any criticism of its Iraq invasion.
          Those who might dare to suggest that the war was wrong were labeled as unpatriotic.
          
          We're wrong and we know we're wrong. But we're going to twist it so you look like you are the one who's wrong.
          
          Romney using the same tactic in his "we have to reach across the aisle and be bipartisan" line. Suddenly Obama is being painted as the one who hasn't worked with the Republicans in Congress.

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             JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             Why don't you just answer my question? Is outsourcing to China a good thing or a bad thing?

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                Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Nobody is "outsourcing" anything to China. Outsourcing is what Bain does--transferring work from the U.S. to China and closing plants here in the U.S. Chrysler isn't doing that. Building a plant in China to produce products for sale in China is not what is commonly meant by outsourcing. What Fiat may be doing with Jeep production may be good for China, and it may be good for Fiat. It has no effect whatsoever on the workers in Ohio, contrary to Romney's lying ads. Romney is an even bigger liar than Dirty Dick Nixon.

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                   JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   It has an effect on the new workers that would be hired if they did it here.
                   
                   Whether or not you are cutting current operations to move them overseas, or starting up your new operations overseas, the principle is the same. You are taking advantage of a market where you can provide goods and services for lower costs, rather than operating in the US.
                   
                   It's hypocritical to criticize Bain for taking advantage of the Chinese market, but not to criticize Jeep for doing the same thing. Opportunity cost means these are jobs lost.

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                      JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Although, I admit that I expect hypocrisy from both sides... it just seems to come with the territory.

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                      Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      No it's not. Bain closes plants here, plunders the pension funds and puts the work in China. Fiat isn't doing that. Building cars here for export to China is a non-starter because of Chinese government rules and the huge difference in labor costs.

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                         JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         In other words... things are cheaper in China. Great. It's ok for Jeep to do it, but if Romney say, gets hats from China(not true, BTW), then it's a bad thing.
                         
                         That's the hypocrisy. It's a fact that some things that can't be done in America, due to cost, can be done in China. Yet the left constantly criticizes outsourcing, or expanding operations overseas.
                         
                         BTW... WaPo fact-check said that every claim in Romney's ad is technically true.

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                            Mighty Momposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                            WaPo fact checker gave the ad 4 Pinocchios -- the worst possible rating!!
                            Althought breitbart.com read a different interpretation of the WaPo fact check.
                            
                            [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/4-pinocchios-for-mitt-romneys-misleading-ad-on-chrysler-and-china/2012/10/29/2a153a04-21d7-11e2-ac85-e669876c6a24_blog.html[.url]

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                               JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                               Yes, WaPo said that every line in the ad is technically correct, but gave it four pinnochios.
                               
                               Something is wrong, and it's not the ad. They went against their own rating system, and they included information that isn't part of the ad as part of their fact-check.
                               
                               1 Pinnochio- Some shading of the facts. Selective telling of the truth. Some omissions and exaggerations, but no outright falsehoods.
                               
                               There were no outright falsehoods, everything was correct. At WORST they should have only given one pinnochio.

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                                  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                  Right when all else fails: bias! *sigh*

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                                     JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                     Josak, how about you actually address something I said?
                                     
                                     What line in the ad is factually incorrect?

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                                        Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                        "“I saw a story today that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China,” the Republican presidential nominee proclaimed..." Romeny and/or whoever wrote the story to which he referred was lying or at the very least mistaken.

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                                           JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                           Yes, I know. I addressed that in the other tread. That report was wrong. Romney fixed it in his ad.

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                                              Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                              He didn't "fix it."
                                              
                                              "But in the game of trickery, Romney is exceedingly dexterous.  A couple of days later, his campaign came out with an ad in Ohio repeating the allegation in a way that tweaked the wording to make it technically true, while continuing to give the same false impression: 'Obama took GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy and sold Chrysler to Italians who are going to build Jeeps in China. Mitt Romney will fight for every American job.'"
                                              
                                              Dana Milbank in the Washington Post

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                                                 JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                 Something along the lines that Jeep is going to be building jeeps for the Chinese market in China.

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                               Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                               Here's what Dana Milbank said in his column today in the Washington Post:
                               
                               Romney goes off-road with the truth
                               By Dana Milbank, Published: October 30
                               
                               Mitt Romney spoke to supporters in the Ohio town of Defiance last week, but his words came from the twin cities of Duplicity and Deception.
                               
                               “I saw a story today that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China,” the Republican presidential nominee proclaimed, referring to the automaker President Obama saved from dissolution with taxpayer funds. “I will fight for every good job in America.”
                               
                               
                                   @Milbank
                                   Facebook
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                               The truth, however, was roughly 180 degrees opposite Romney’s claim. Chrysler, which owns the Jeep label, has added about 7,000 jobs in North America since it emerged from bankruptcy proceedings in June 2009, and it continues to expand its U.S. workforce and to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in American plants.

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    Mighty Momposted 11 years ago

    I remember seeing the segment about Fiat/Chrysler on 60 minutes and thinking, "Wow. That's a turnaround!"
    Here's a link for anyone interested in how Chrysler has fared since 2009.
    
    I have excerpted below one paragraph that may (or may not) be of interest about the interplay between Chrysler, Fiat, US and European markets.
    
    
    http://content.usatoday.com/communities … has-gone/1
    
    But the larger theme of the 60 Minutes piece was Chrysler's improbable turnaround. In 2011, Chrysler had a $183 million profit -- its first since 2005. Meanwhile, Fiat, which owns 58.5% of Chrysler, is struggling in the European slump and the combined company would have lost money last year without Chrysler's profit.

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    JaxsonRaineposted 11 years ago

    MM. Is taking advantage of cheap parts and labor in China a bad thing? Please answer, you're dodging as much as Ralph now, you don't usually do that.

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       Mighty Momposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       So now you are correcting the fact checkers on their own rating system?
       Are you Neil Newhouse, or just espousing his "We will  not be dictated by fact checkers" stance?
       
       Meanwhile, Romney campaign is airing another BLATANTLY LYING ad, this one on welfare-to work.
       The theme of this thread is Romney and his LYING ADS.
       
       This from LA Times
       http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la … 2674.story
       
       Here's the gist:
       Mitt Romney’s campaign can be congratulated on fulfilling a summer campaign promise — to speak its mind in campaign ads, regardless of what outsiders said. Or as Romney pollster Neil Newhouse put it in August: "We're not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact checkers.”
       With a new ad out Tuesday, the Romney camp, sure fire, renews its previously discredited charge that President Obama “gutted the work requirement for welfare.”
       
       It’s an allegation that many media already showed ignores the real intent of an Obama administration rule that lets states begin to try new ways to get the poor to fulfill the work requirement that goes with their welfare payments.  That’s normally the kind of power-sharing with the states that Republicans adore. But not when there’s an opening to dog the Democrat in the White House and to ignite the electorate with images of layabouts collecting government checks while giving nothing in return.
       
       The claim of gutting work requirements in welfare makes for the second disputed assertion in a Romney ad released in the last few days. The Republican already had been widely chastised for airing ads suggesting that Chrysler, after being bailed out by Obama, shipped jobs making Jeeps overseas to China. The automaker said it actually had added U.S. manufacturing jobs, while also adding jobs in China to supply the Asian market.
       
       Romney had raised the no-work-for-welfare claim earlier in an ad that declared: “Under Obama’s plan, you wouldn’t have to work and wouldn’t have to train for a job. They just send you your welfare check."
       
       Politifact.com, among many other outlets, found the earlier Romney ad grossly misleading. “The ad’s claim is not accurate,”  Politifact said, “and it inflames old resentments about able-bodied adults sitting around collecting public assistance.”
       
       And here's how we know they know they're trying to pull a fast one on these ads:
       
       It’s noteworthy that both of the newest misleading Romney ads went on the air without a press release to news organizations, which had been standard issue for ads during most of the campaign. Why give the media an early heads-up on ads, if those thankless scribes will spend the extra time debunking your 30 seconds of handiwork?

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          JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          MM, come on! If you want to disagree with something I say, make an actual argument. I QUOTED THEIR OWN GUIDELINES! They said EVERY CLAIM IN THE AD WAS TRUE. THAT MEANS NO FALSEHOODS.
          
          So yes, I'm correcting them. Fact-checkers mess up. Or does putting 'fact-check' at the head of an article mean it's automatically true?
          
          I haven't looked at the language of the work/welfare stuff, but you're probably right. I admit that Romney uses misleading statements, and lies in his campaign. I don't think there has been a candidate in a long time that hasn't. It sucks.
          
          But, lying in one ad doesn't mean another ad is a lie. WaPo said every claim was factually true, but they just don't like it, so they broke their own rating system.
          
          You still haven't answered my question... I'm disappointed. The closer we get to the election, the more this has been happening.

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       Mighty Momposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I'm not dodging anything, Jaxson.
       That is not the subject of this thread.
       Chinese production of Jeeps has already been mentioned (repeatedly) as moot and besides the point.
       
       It's a red herring argument that you are trying to put up here, and not worthy of engagement.

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    A Troubled Manposted 11 years ago

    "Let’s set the record straight: Jeep has no intention of shifting production of its Jeep models out of North America to China. It’s simply reviewing the opportunities to return Jeep output to China for the world’s largest auto market. U.S. Jeep assembly lines will continue to stay in operation. A careful and unbiased reading of the Bloomberg take would have saved unnecessary fantasies and extravagant comments. "
    
    http://blog.chryslerllc.com/blog.do?id=1932&p=entry
    
    "Chrysler currently builds all Jeep SUV models at plants in Michigan, Illinois and Ohio. Manley referred to adding Jeep production sites rather than shifting output from North America to China. "
    
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-2 … limbs.html

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       JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Exactly, and that's what the ad says. Jeeps are going to start being made in China. Like WaPo said, there was nothing in the ad that wasn't factually true.

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          Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          The ad may have been "factually true" but it was quite misleading, implying to the mouth breathers that Romney was protecting Ohioans from a Chrysler move of jeep production to China.. That's why everybody gave it a "pants on fire."

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             JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             I see. So telling the truth now, is considered misleading, if you have an R next to your name?

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          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          The ad specifically stated, "plans to return Jeep output to China"
          
          So, is Jeep returning to China? Is that factually true?

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             JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             Yes. That is factually true.

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                A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                *sigh* whatever, dude.

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                   JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   What's wrong? They used to make Jeeps there. Then they didn't. Now they will again.
                   
                   In other words, they will return.

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    Ralph Deedsposted 11 years ago

    "We've clearly entered some parallel universe during these last few days," GM spokesman Greg Martin said. "No amount of campaign politics at its cynical worst will diminish our record of creating jobs in the U.S. and repatriating profits back to this country."
    
    Separately, Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne used an e-mail to employees Tuesday to refute the implication in a Romney TV ad that Chrysler may move all Jeep production from the U.S. to China.
    
    "Jeep production will not be moved from the United States to China," Marchionne stated in the e-mail. "The numbers tell the story," followed by specific investments Chrysler has made in Detroit, Toledo and Belvidere, Ill. "Those include more than $1.7 billion to produce the successor of the Jeep Liberty and hire about 1,100 workers on a second shift by 2013."
    
    Marchionne also said Chrysler has created 2,000 jobs since June 2009 at its Jefferson North assembly plant, where it makes the Jeep Grand Cherokee. The automaker has added 2,600 jobs in Belvidere, Ill., where it assembles the Jeep Patriot and Compass, along with the Dodge Dart.

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    LiamBeanposted 11 years ago

    

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    movingoutposted 11 years ago

    The Romney campaign is so full of lies, just throw this one on top of the pile! Sad thing is, so many Republicans have heard these lies, so many times, they believe them! Sad!

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    Ralph Deedsposted 11 years ago

    Brian Dickerson in today's Detroit Free Press:
    
    "The ad, which began airing in Michigan and Ohio this week, asserts that Chinese autoworkers have been the chief beneficiaries of an auto industry bailout financed by American taxpayers. It comes on the heels of a series of Ohio campaign appearances in which Romney asserted -- evidently with no factual basis whatsoever -- that Chrysler is planning to export U.S. manufacturing jobs to China.
    
    "These assertions are lies, as both GM and Chrysler have been obliged to point out in uncharacteristically blunt statements. Striving to remain above the political fray is one thing, but when a major party's presidential nominee starts spewing propaganda that undermines consumer confidence in your product, even the most circumspect CEO is obliged to point out that said candidate's pants are on fire...
    
    "Still, Romney appears convinced that if he lies boldly and frequently enough, he can convince Ohioans that an auto rescue that preserved hundreds of thousands of American jobs was really the first step in a diabolical scheme to ship those jobs overseas.
    
    "Good luck with that, Gov. Pinocchio.
    
    'The enduring truth is that dishonesty is bad policy, and in Romney's case, it's bound to be a losing strategy as well."
    
    
    http://www.freep.com/article/20121102/C … scue-blitz

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       LiamBeanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       The link above is what I'm referring to. From that link the following quote.
       
       "Like most U.S. companies, Amway had secured permission to expand into the lucrative Chinese market only by agreeing to manufacture the products it wanted to sell to Chinese consumers in Chinese factories; contrary to the TV spot's implication, no "American jobs" had been exported to Asia."
       
       In truth if an agreement had to be struck forcing Amway to manufacture products in China in order to sell them to the Chinese, the agreement did indeed cost U.S. jobs.
       
       We certainly didn't force China to manufacture their tires here.  Likewise we have not insisted that Chinese autos and parts be made here as well. In the case of Amway there's no real reason why Amway products made here could not be sold in China. And if they are made here and sold in China that simply means there will be more American jobs via Amway.

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          Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          No. Goods made here cannot readily be sold in China simply because labor in China is so ridiculously cheap that to produce goods here to sell in China is generally pointless.

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             LiamBeanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             Market forces be damned huh? I guess that's why Jeep can't sell American made products in China?

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                Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Nope that is precisely a market force, wages.
                
                "In the case of Amway there's no real reason why Amway products made here could not be sold in China." That is incorrect, we can't compete with China's manufacturing costs plus shipping to sell in China it makes no economic sense.  As fr the agreement that is a market force too, China has an excellent climate for manufacture and an expanding economy companies are looking to exploit so it makes sense that the Chinese would be intent on ensuring they get those jobs, such policies don't always work but in China's case they probably will.

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                   LiamBeanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   Josak: Pay attention this time OK? That's why all Jeeps will be manufactured in China right?

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                      Uninvited Writerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Wrong... all Jeeps to be sold in China will be made in China.

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                      Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      As writer points out all Jeeps to be sold in China will be made in China, China has a lower wage so expecting a Chinese person to pay the cost of American labor plus the shipping is unrealistic on the other hand Americans will buy American products because their wages are higher and there is no shipping cost plus the "made in America" tag still carries some weight. It's very simple really, there is no manufacturing company in general goods that will manufacture in America for sale in China that is a business model doomed to failure.

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                         LiamBeanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         OK. It's entirely safe to ignore your posts now.
                         
                         That "Jeeps made in China" claim has been debunked in every conceivable way, particularly by top management at both Chrysler and Fiat.
                         
                         A bit of sound advice if you will. Repeating a lie destroys any credibility you might have had. Especially when that lie has been so completely and thoroughly destroyed.
                         
                         Please sell your bridge from Brooklyn to New York elsewhere.

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                Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                There are a number of reasons why cars made in the USA can't be sold in China--government restrictions on imports, lower labor costs and the substantial cost penalty of shipping a car from US to China. For many years nearly all auto companies have followed the practice of building cars in the countries where they are sold, if the market in the country is big enough to support car production. In GM's case for many years cars have been built in the US, Mexico, Europe, Brazil, South Africa and Australia. And they have been assembled from parts made in the US in Chile, Colombia and several other small countries.

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    Ralph Deedsposted 11 years ago

    Trump Jumps into China Auto Fray and is Rebuked by Chrysler VP
    
    "Or, rather, the Donald tweeted, remarking that President Barack Obama "is a terrible negotiator. He bails out Chrysler and now Chrysler wants to send all Jeep manufacturing to China -- and will!"
    
    "A Chrysler vice president for product design, Ralph Gilles, tweeted back a response the Free Press won't reprint in a family paper. Suffice to say, he let it be known that, when it comes to cars, Trump should stick to real estate. Chrysler declined to comment."
    
    http://www.freep.com/article/20121102/B … y=nav|head

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       rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       What can we expect from a frequent contributor to Fox Snoooooze.

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    LiamBeanposted 11 years ago

    More on the Ralph Gilles vs Donald Trump Exchange on Twitter.
    
    

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    wavegirl22posted 11 years ago

    I cant believe how people are still trying to find a silver linning for Romney on this topic. Is it any wonder that the GM officials, frustrated by the Republican campaign’s attempts to create a false impression among voters, took the rare step of issuing a statement that said Romney and Ryan appear to be getting their information from a “parallel universe."
    
    

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       Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Romney blew it with his opposition to the auto bailout in 2008 and dug his hole deeper by trying to lie his way out of it in Ohio.

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