http://news.msn.com/world/update-irish- … er-a-death
"Thousands protested in Ireland and parents cried out in India after a miscarrying woman died having been refused an abortion. The laws have to change, Irish physicians say."
I think there is the idea here that by killing her body they are saving her soul.
I may even agree with the premise, but by God's will we have free will and by mans law I want for women to have equal say, equal pay, equal privacy, etc.
You did notice that didn't happen in America right?
And?... This forum is not just for discussions about US politics.
But their abortion laws are what many in the US want.
Fae, that was the point...it is a picture of what could have been here...I was hoping for people to notice; it is a very deep and complicated issue, life is not black and white...
Yes, and we always have...One of my favorite stories of the Bible; when Jesus saves the woman, harlot, from being stoned to death by saying... "thee who is without sin may cast the first stone..."
God (for those that believe in one) is who is the one that passes judgement, he took that upon himself and off of us. We don't like to be judged thus don't need to pass that judgement. Though I find it ironic the ones that are judgemental of a women choosing abortion are the one's that are preaching the word of God as their reasoning for their view.
I do have to agree that there is no reason that it should be up to anyone to not give a women equal pay for the equal job they do. There is no reason that you can present with factual and empirical evidence to support we shouldn't have equal privacy, the right to choose, the right to believe what we choose to believe...and its really all a moot point Tammy too don't you agree? Because it all seems to be entangled into morals and values or religion that you can't impose on another human being...just sayin
It is so sad that in her country she wasn't able to make an informed decesion about her body and it led to this tragedy. I think its important as an example as to why in America, we have the right to choose.
I never quite understand the uproar and constant insistence about the term "her body". The womans body is not the question; the living person inside it is. At least to the religious right that have declared that a fetus is a person.
Whether I agree with that declaration or not (I don't), it is the crux of the matter, not the woman's control over her body. I disagree with the idea that a woman cannot get an abortion, but the answer is not to constantly repeat that they're taking away her control of her body. They have no intention of doing that, except as "collateral damage". What they are concerned about is that the woman is making a conscious and deliberate decision to murder another person.
Want to change their mind? Convince them that a fetus is not a person. Until you do that there cannot be, and will not be, any change in the minds of those fighting abortion rights.
I am a mother of three, I am a Christian, but I do not believe a zygote is yet a child...Neither side wii ever budge there...My thought, if the right wants to make a case for this they should include the male in the equation...There is a mid ground, as with all of the issues that the peopaganda machines keep trying to paint as black and white...Can you imagine the difficulty of writing the Constitution, This is exactly the way laws should be shaped, its not black and white or red and blue, its me and you...
I'm 100% on your side. A zygote, or a 1 month fetus, is NOT a person.
But that's not the point. The point is that others disagree, and that they are the ones you have to convince.
But don't you think we aren't the ones that have to convince anyone? We have seperation of church and state on our side as well as science and empiracle evidence...shouldn't they be the ones trying to convince us? That won't happen anyway since religion isn't an aspect in the end....they can say whatever they want but they have know data to support their views
Oh, and I wasn't directing the comment (long novel) towards you..I hope you know that...just the issue in general and the points you brought up...I hope I didn't offend anyone
Then, wilderness, if those 'others' just minded their own business and concern themselves with what is going on in their lives and bodies, we could staunch all this ridiculous debate which just is another symptom of the rabid right?
What exactly do you mean? It isn't ridiculous only because there are two passionate views and very strong beliefs on both sides. That isn't ridiculous, the only part that is will be we will never agree so we shouldn't try. Though being accepting of other's views is important and being tolerant and open minded. Sometimes that is hard to come by when talking even to intelligent individuals.
You are a sweet person Tammy, but the moment anyone you know gets pregnant and gives birth to anything but a human baby you waste no time in letting me know about it ok? That way I can change my views.
Religion is up the person, according to scientific evidence, as far as I know (and this is what SHOULD be considered when law is considered NOT religion) a "fetus" is considered a living person when it is viable outside of the womb. (FYI I am pro-life for MYSELF)
So saying this, their is a law that you can not "murder" a fetus if its viable outside the womb, they outlawed late term abortion.
It IS about a woman's choice because we don't mix government and religion right? In America, we do have seperation of church and state am I correct? I am technically a Roman Catholic, I kept a child after I was date raped, I have been raising him not knowing if he is the rape or my husband...so I did what I felt was morally right.
My morals and my religious views are not yours. I can't expect to push you let alone the entire nation, to feel the way I do. Your religion or views are not the "one true and correct belief", none of us know what that is.
And what is collateral damage exactly? If we outlaw abortion...than those 1.5 million aborted fetuses, who weren't wanted in the first place, weren't viable outside the womb, there are not enough foster homes for, even adoptions could take forever and by the time the child is a toddler may just end up in foster homes, are going to make our nation even more overcrowded, more people on welfare and government assistance, and would have been forced to act on someone else view of what is life.
Fetus is NOT a person ACCORDING TO SCIENCE until it is VIABLE OUTSIDE THE WOMB. Once Science changes their mind than their is a topic to discuss.
You will never control what I can do with my body I am sorry to say and I am really not being rude. You have your view...I respect your view as hello, I didn't abort my four children, three unplanned, one of rape...soooo...I technically I guess believe what you do for myself. I would never expect another women or human being to conform to my belief.
this is exactly why I don't want a hard core relgious leader for my country because their beliefs are clouding their ability to make decisions for our country without letting it get in the way.
It IS about her control of her body. You can't change that. You won't change that. It isn't really up to a man to decide what a women can do to our bodies. I can get a tattoo, I can get piercings, I can cut myself, I can dye my hair, I can choose to have an abortion before its viable. It can't live outside the womb. It doesn't fully develop until birth. Who is anyone to say I have to believe that because it has a heartbeat its human...its not developed into anything yet. I tood child and infant development in developmental psychology, I am a psychology major and interested in developmental psychology because its scientifically researched and has empirical evidence to support their hypothesis and claims for causation or correlating evidence. Religion doesn't.
You can't term it murder...no matter how you twist it...because legally it isn't
Its morally wrong for you maybe. But your morals are certainly not everyone's.
Sorry but this issue is getting beyond what it should be. Scienctific evidence and shit could be put in someone's hand proving what I say even and no one with strong moral convictions will take data and realize that sometimes what you believe doesn't line up with fact.
Science rules over religion when you are talking the laws of a nation.
You won't take my rights away.
Abby, you've misread my post. I agree with you.
The religious right does not, however, and therein lies the problem. When you claim that science has determined that a fetus is not a human, that is incorrect. Any such statement is by definition ONLY and has nothing to do with reality. The reality of such a statement lies ONLY in the mind of the speaker.
About the only place I even might disagree with you is that it is totally a woman's choice - when that choice is to destroy a man's offspring, his child, I begin to have a little problem. I don't have an answer here, just a problem.
Legally, it obviously isn't murder, but it IS killing. Of a human being, according to the opinions of some, and that is what you will have to change before there can be widespread agreement on the subject.
All the claims and declarations in the world that it is YOUR body and YOUR choice don't matter one whit to someone that sees only the wanton destruction of human life. What's so hard to understand about that? Why is it so hard to understand that some people do not accept the artificial definition of what constitutes humanity?
There is no science here; scientists do not have the ability or right to make definitions that are solely in the realm of, not religion, but at least morality and conviction. When you look at it from that standpoint, you quickly realize that science can make all the definitions it wants to, but those definitions are words only, not reality and not necessarily truth. There has been no experimentation, no fact finding, no data confirmation, just a definition that works for the scientist in his studies.
I didn't mean to direct it at you actually, just to some points you were making and I said I wasn't quite sure when science or government deemed life for a child....I was just giving it as an example to an arguement that rose in this topic years ago. My point was not that its only a woman's and not a man's and I should correct what I meant as I was not clear.
It isn't ANY man's right...the father of the baby should have the right to state if she doesn't want to raise the baby he wants parental rights and it should be done through the legal system so that once she gives birth her rights are terminated and he can raise his offspring...under most conditions I would agree with that. If a father doesn't have the right to say he doesn't want the child and not be financially responsible after its birth that it should be that he gets to have a say if it can be terminated or not. That would be my view.
I think what maybe you meant is it shouldn't be overgeneralized? Is that more of a correct interpretations?
I am going to look on my college library website that has thousands of research studies, peer reviewed journals, and other work to see if I can find anything to back what I was saying because my best recollection is there is some work that was done but don't quote me yet, I will look this evening:) I will take back what I said if I mis-spoke. That wasn't my intention...I think my real point is we can't base it off morals and values because its all different and that we need to stop debating it so much in elections and this and that because when it comes down to it most arguements to support outlawing it or taking rights away from women is religion based or a morality issue.
I apologize if I directed it at you...I am just frustrated at the issue over all as I am sure you could understand. I don't like anyone trying to impose their beliefs on a human being...America isn't supposed to be based on that...anyway sorry again and I will recheck my facts.
You're absolutely right in that denying abortion is a religious and moral issue, and that is as it should be. Religion must be limited (in our country) because of separation of church and state, but the morals come mostly from religion anyway so in a way it is a moot point.
To me, the morals center around when that fetus becomes human. I've looked at fetuses of varying age, at pictures of fetuses, at pictures of the internal structure of fetuses, and everything else I can think of. I'm not smart enough to know where that dividing line is. As far as I'm concerned a zygote, or a very young fetus, is not human; an 8 month fetus is. Somewhere in between that collection of cells becomes a person, and at that point has very nearly the same rights as anyone else. That it is supported by the mother is inconsequential (but for rare cases where life for both can't be sustained); every baby is supported entirely by someone. It can't live by it's own efforts after birth any more than it can in the womb.
The government has declared that the division occurs at the first trimester point; after that abortion is murder and no longer just destroying a bunch of organic cells. Because I'm not smart enough to decide for myself, I'm willing to accept that designation and declare that aborting a fetus prior to the time is fine, but after that it is murder.
I haven't found anyone else smart enough to actually define that line by reason or logic, either, and can't quite understand when people make declarations that they are. They may be willing to make a declaration, but that does not in any way make it right. They may be more than willing to take action based on their declaration (including murdering surgeons) but only because they refuse to admit their own ignorance.
The bottom line, I believe, is that the choice is morality based and that, within limits set by society in general, must be left to the woman or to the joint agreement of man and woman if we could ever find a reasonable solution to the question of a woman wanting to destroy what would become a man's child one day. THAT will become the next fight, I'm afraid, and I see no more solution to it than to the question of abortion in general.
I agree 100% its a human when its viable outside the womb. I do agree that late term abortion should be illegal unless there is alife threatening issue for the mother, especially if she has other children to raise. Its a hard line to define I am afraid.
I think people become more ignorant when they can't be open minded and listen to all arguements on an issue. I am not afraid to admit if I was wrong and change my view with new information. That is what an intelligent person should do but that is my own view.
I do agree with what you are saying and its a very well thought out and intelligent arguement I can't challenge in any way.
Re-reading your prior post about a father's rights, I could agree with that. It would never pass the "Woman's body" test, though, and could not possibly gain acceptance without some rather large changes in the thinking of that crowd.
It's also a little bit of why I bristle some at the screams that a woman can do whatever she wants with her body. As I said before, her body but a whole new person inside that is being erased, and that changes things a bit. Of course, my stance that anything less than 3 months old being inhuman would take a hit, too.
Nothing is simple in this argument.
I don't scream about it, acutally this is the first time I really even gave my own view as its not an issue I think I want to be a part of most of the time. I don't think either side needs to force anyone into agreeing with them. There needs to be some tolerance for other's views on the matter and I think legally you are right there are a lot of problems with my idea of what is right. That is the reason that I think some of these issues will always remain issues. I just don't want someone saying in government its now illegal to do what I need to with my body.
Hmm. My turn to apologize, I think - I did not intend to reference you as screaming about it. Some (many) do use that as almost a rallying call, shouting "It's MY body!" to the heavens, but I did not mean to offend by saying you were one of them.
I am seldom willing to discuss abortion rights, either, mainly because I can see major problems in what some consider as the right thing to do in saving innocent and helpless lives while others see that "life" as a few organic cells without particular meaning.
You seem far more reasonable than the vast majority in that you can actually see the problem for what it is; a difference in belief and morals with no one actually having the high road all to themselves. It is not simple, it is not easy, and it won't be solved in a forum somewhere.
Still, if we can try to understand where the other side is coming from there may one day be a consensus on what is acceptable and what is not. We'll never convince everyone but perhaps the majority, the thinking and reasoning ones among us...maybe there is hope.
It's past my bedtime; thank you for the discussion and may we meet again down the road. I've enjoyed it.
I agree the government should stay out of women's bodies. I don't believe the soul comes into the child until it is born. To say the woman's body is not affected is ridiculous. A conscienious woman must eat properly, refrain from alcohol or drugs (legal ones for medical conditions, not illegal ones, though that's more important). She has to refrain from many of her usual activities, and then is expected to be back at work 6 weeks after her life is changed forever, with no help from daycare. In our generations we don't live close to our families anymore, so many women have no help at all. In Europe most women get 6 paid months off after having a child. I had terrible back pain my whole pregnancy. By the 8th month, you can barely get behind the wheel of your car to drive. All kinds of weird things happen to your body and hormones while pregnant, and for months afterward. I had nosebleeds, nausea, back pain that doubled me over from the 4th month. So how can anyone say a women's body has nothing to do with pregnancy? Your body is never the same again. And during this election, I heard Republicans say how safe pregnancy is. The infant mortality rate in American is worse than in some third world countries. I have some Irish heritage, and if you go to a Catholic graveyard, you will see many graves of a woman aged 25, and the graves of the 6 babies she bore and lost in 6 years. It takes a huge toll on a woman's body to have a chlid, and it makes me so angry to hear a man say it's nothing. I bet most men couldn't even get through one bad menstrual cycle, where you feel like you have severe runs and have bad abdominal cramps all day. And when I was a teen, I thought about overpopulation too. We have been terrible stewards of the Earth, no matter if you believe in evolution or creation. If men had to bear the babies, much less would be born. And if the child is born to parents who won't even marry, to make a committment to each other, how do they expect to commit to being a parent for 18 yrs. And it doesn't end there. Is parenthood worth it, of course. But when it's planned or the couple has the means to support children. In this economy, birth control is more important than ever. We dont want young women dying because they tried to abort with the help of a coat hanger, and go backwards, do we? That's what R's and the Tea Party are bringing on America.
I am glad that you brought up the things we have to change for a pregnancy, the health issues, the working mom issue, and if we need day care, how we can pay for it...and what if you are a single mom for whatever reason? I really like your input.
Thanks. I didn't become a Mom until I was 32, and married for 8 yrs., so it was not a surprise, but it did cause a big change in both our lifestyles. It seems this generation doesn't really get how much time you will not have to yourself, how much responsibility you will have too, unless you come from a large family. Unless you make a good salary, daycare is not a viable option, and who wants their baby spending the day with strangers? There are so many things to consider. I adore my Son, he's been my shining star. But I would never do it again. I have a brother 10 yrs. younger than I am, and had much of the responsibility for him, and still do, as he is bipolar. I know my limitations.
I understand it all...I was 19, unplanned pregnancy after I got discharged from the Marines and had to move back home, lost my job due to high risk pregnancy, only got married to avoid adoption and got kicked out because I refused to let my mom tell me that I had to get an abortion because I lived under her roof and had to live her values. He was military so it worked out okay for nine years but we divorced due to his infedelity..I freaked out and got married again to fast and had a fourth child when my soldier walked out on us and left us with nothing. I had four kid, one with autism, no money, couldn't work because no one could take care of my son because of the violence, didn't get daycare covered because when I moved here to live with my dad to get out of a trailer that we were going to lose anyway since my ex stopped support payments and ran from his job as a father and I went to school full time...they wouldn't pay unless I worked and all I could get was a job that was monday through friday until school got out...couldn't work nights and weekends or holidays and all school breaks...tell me what job could I do????
My first husband lives in California and thats 3000 miles away! My father works full time plus some and travels around the country for his job so he can only watch the kids if the are sick and he doesn't want me to miss class and he is actually here and my brother is 21 and in college and works two jobs...they would only give me foodstamps that doesn't cover half of our food bill per month. No day care and thats six hundred a month for one child that my father has to pay for because they can't find my ex-husband anymore for payments and he is stealing his kids veterans benefits...it could be as low as fifty bucks but fifty is fifty...
Would I want someone else to do all that??????????????? Um no....its hard...if it is hard for those established, than I will tell you the opposite side of the fence is triple that and why would we want young girls to feel that they have to do that. Adoption is an answer but my boyfriend, later husband, refused to sign the papers. I refused abortion. I was almost on the street if he hadn't have married me and that isn't a life someone should have to choose because eventually we ende dup in love but we did so much damage it was best we divorced and remained close friends. anyway, I think I said enough to validate your points...thank you for your side of the coin
You have quite a story there, but I don't know how you did it! I don't think anyone really wants to have an abortion, I have friends who feel guilty 40 yrs. later. But all the things abbykorinelee brought up are the realities of the problems faced when you have a child you weren't ready for, and I brought up the ones you face if you think you are ready. The truth is somewhere in between, you are never "ready" you just do your best. But our lifestyles are changed. In my Mom's generation, families stayed near each other, and you had lots of Aunts, Cousins, and even Sisters who could help you. I recall my M-in-law telling me how lucky I was to own my home in my 20's. It wasn't luck, I worked my tail off from the week I graduated HS. But we paid the price by moving to the suburbs, alone, with just my husband and I to depend on each other. Everyone will fight about exactly when the child becomes a child. But I think some of the more conservative people aren't thinking about the everyday realities of raising children. It's like the man who was CEO of a big company who says, "I raised 5 children" but never spent a whole day with all 5 of them in his married life. Each situation varies, as each relationship does. The issue isn't a political one, I wish the R's would stop it and concentrate on other stuff.
This story was on the evening news. I think she must have been sentenced or something today.
Anyway, wonder what people think about this.
All children should be wanted and cared for.
All women who become pregnant should not become mothers.
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/05/ … -daughter/
MM, I know, it breaks my heart...In my small town a toddler ran into the main street and was hit and killed by a dump truck driver, the driver later committed suicide...the mother has now been charged after a thourough investigation into her negligence...another lady was driving a drinking went across the center line, the 2 yr old and 7 yr old in the back were not buckled in, they were thrown through the wind shield and died, she has been charged with murder, a young couple has been charged for killing their beautiful 2 yr old daughter...these stories have been in the past couple of months in this small little town...
How common do you imagine this type of hypocrisy is? I bet it happens a lot more than we know.
Not unlike the Congressmen who consistently vote anti-gay turning out to be on the down low.
I have a major, major problem with middle-aged white men usurping the conversation on this issue.
They have never been pregnant. They will never be pregnant.
They simply have no idea -- NO IDEA.
phttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/ … lp00000009
LOL that is said so much better than I had stated it.
I truly believe that for our country to truly be one of freedom in our choices, our pursuit of happiness...the seperation of church and state...that they need to legalize gay marriage to be honest because just like you said, its hypocritical of our country. I too don't feel comfortable with someone who hasn't been pregnant telling me what to do.
Truth is I take pregnancy physically, emotionally, and mentally really badly. I have easy and perfect births, but I get sicker with each pregnancy, I developed depression, hormonal imbalances that changed my entire personality, I couldn't function and no medication would help that and be safe for the baby...I endured that four times...I am lucky I didn't snap but some women would and if they know they can't physically or mentally be healthy, they have every reason to think of themselves first. Just saying...
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Aborted the fetus she found out she was carrying because it just didn't work for her right now. Remember it's her body and her right, would you give a care?
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