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Pregnant woman refused abortion by catholic country dies!!!!!!!!!!!!

  1. pisean282311 profile image54
    pisean282311posted 4 years ago

    A 31-year-old Indian woman dentist died in Ireland from blood poisoning after doctors allegedly refused to terminate her 17-week-long pregnancy, telling her that "this is a Catholic country". Irish authorities have launched a probe into the death of Savita Halappanavar, who was 17 weeks pregnant when she suffered a miscarriage and septicaemia at University Hospital Galway in October, The Irish Times reported on Wednesday.

    Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar, an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, said she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated. Having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Savita asked for a medical termination. This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, "This is a Catholic country".

    The dead foetus was later removed and Savita was taken to the high dependency unit and then the intensive care unit, where she died of septicaemia on October 28. "Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, 'As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can't do anything'," her husband was quoted as saying by the newspaper.

    Despite her insistence that she was "neither Irish nor Catholic", the doctors refused to abort the foetus. An autopsy carried out two days later found she died of septicaemia "documented ante-mortem" and E.coli ESBL. A hospital spokesperson confirmed the Health Service Executive had begun an investigation while the hospital had also instigated an internal investigation.

    Abortion is illegal in the Republic of Ireland. The incident has reignited the debate over women's rights to abortion in the country. Ireland Prime Minister Enda Kenny himself said he was awaiting the findings of the probe into the death.

    1. profile image0
      Peelander Gallyposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      That's the America almost half of its citizens dream of, I say they should have to live with it. Oh, what, you're in intense pain and dying? God's will. Oh, what, you're 13 and were raped repeatedly by your uncle? God's will. Medieval institutions, man. They've gotta go.

      1. kathleenkat profile image84
        kathleenkatposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Putting the hateful attitude of your post aside, I fail to see how denying abortions to people who wouldn't want them in the first place would be an adequate punishment. Why is there a need to punish those with differences of opinion, anyway?

        1. cfin profile image80
          cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Well not just that. The article has inaccuracies throughout. Abortion is not illegal in Ireland if the mothers life is at risk or in the cases of rape or for suicide prevention.

          The article also fails to make clear that many international experts agree that she would have died from septicemia even if she had an abortion.

          Further, the child had a heartbeat and the doctor wrongfully presumed her life was not at risk. Once the child died, they operated with a D&C, the same care my wife got in Wisconsin. Exactly the same procedure in St.Marys hospital. In this unfortunate case in Ireland, the doctor was at fault.

          Ireland was rated in 2012 as having the BEST care for pregnant women in the world.

          Ireland infant mortality rate is among the lowest in the world and much lower than the USA.

          Ireland was ranked 19th for health care ahead of the United States (just as an example)

          This article is completely biased and is being lapped up as an excuse to reignite the age old bashing of Irish people and Ireland.  Pure nonsense and propaganda. I know women who have had abortions in Ireland.  So stop jumping on the bandwagon.

          And yes, I agree that legislation needs to be updated and this doctor needs to be fired.  The legislation is there but is quite ambiguous because Ireland is in the process of transition. It is the countries biggest issue right now, but maybe you should go and take a look at your own countries laws before making attacks on random tiny, highly educated countries, with populations of only 4 million and NOT EVEN AN EMBASSY IN THE VATICAN.

          1. psycheskinner profile image81
            psycheskinnerposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            She probably would not have died of septicemia if she had an abortion because the process would have caused them to diagnose septicemia and it is easily treatable. She died of it because they didn't diagnose it because they did not examine her internally.

            Ireland is extremely wonderful in many ways. Allowing doctors to follow their religion rather than the law, due to the poor phrasing of the law amongst other things, is not one of them. Nor is exporting most abortions to the UK.

            1. cfin profile image80
              cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              psycheskinner. The law is clear, yet this particular doctor did not allow the woman to have her constitutional rights upheld. New legislation will prevent this from happening again! We do not allow doctors to follow their religion instead of the law. Does the USA allow crazy people to break into theatres and shoot them up, or the UK allow combat 18 to beat up foreigners and spread hate?  No. That's why they are mistakes.

              The fact is, that every country has some flaws. The UK surely has its fair share too. This turned into a paddy whacking pile of garbage and an excuse for the world to hate on a tiny nation. As you said yourself "even in Ireland". Like the UK is any better in any way. I would of thought we were equal, but your grammar seems to suggest otherwise.

              The reason they go to the UK for an abortion  is because its about as easy as visiting star bucks over there. That's the woman's choice. Its a lot easier than filling out a pile of paperwork. And a flight to our neighbors is only E20.

              The law needs to be changed and will be changed.

              1. Sapper profile image68
                Sapperposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Your PM has other thoughts about changing the law.

                http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/11/1 … EN20121116

                And the difference between all the other things you mention in other countries and this, is nobody was defending those. Whether that was your intention or not, that's how its coming across.

                Finally, for your comment below, please explain how the fact that most people don't get murdered in a hospital in Ireland makes it any better for her family that she did?

                1. cfin profile image80
                  cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Again Sapper, this is taken completely out of context. Ireland has already granted the right to an abortion if the woman's life was in danger. I already stated that the media are taking this out of context. This was the doctors fault for not following standard procedures.

                  I never said it made it any better. This woman should not have died.

                  Nobody is defending this, what on earth are you talking about??

                  The Taoiseach (not sure why your reputable news agency is calling him the prime minister), doesn't want to rush through another amendment that is 1. insufficient or 2 ambiguous. I have stated nothing but facts and the opinion of many of my friends in Ireland. Nobody defended the doctor. Clearly sapper you are one of the ones with chip on the shoulder. For me this is about facts and fairness. The media is full of lies and rubbish. And of all things its called a bureaucracy. You should know about those.

                  They like to stir up nonsense and sensationalism. This was a terrible thing to happen. But the laws are there and they are being amended to make them more clear.

                  FYI Legislation being filed today. And yes the country is in mourning over this death. People are embarrassed and ashamed.

                  http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1119/x-case … rtion.html

                  1. Sapper profile image68
                    Sapperposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Yes, the laws say you can have an abortion if your life is in danger, then they leave it up to the doctor to determine that.

                    Quote from the article I posted that you obviously didn't even read:

                    "This is a matter that has divided Irish society now for a great number of years, and I am not going to be rushed into a situation by force of numbers on any side," Prime Minister Enda Kenny told state broadcaster RTE.

                    Argue all you want, Ireland allowing a 2000 year old book to make decisions for people killed that woman. There is a fact for you.

            2. profile image60
              retief2000posted 4 years agoin reply to this

              There are deaths from septic legal abortions.

          2. pennyofheaven profile image81
            pennyofheavenposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Media sensationalism. On CNN they did not have a recording from the father saying the doctors said we are a catholic nation, as was reported. Since that was supposed to be what all the fuss was about then one would think that is what they would have the Father repeat that live.

            1. cfin profile image80
              cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Sensationalism indeed. Rupert Murdoch and his Crony's really have it out for certain groups of people. I am the first to say this law needs to bechanged and the law updated, but the hype involved is just beyond words. And all the horrible people just jump on the bandwagon to make themselves feel better about their own countries. Trust me when I say, you dont need to run down Ireland, we do it enough ourselves.

              Talk about 'kickin em when their down'. The funny thing is, that this has not happened before? Of course it has. In Italy, Malta, Spain, certain states in the USA, and countless other countries. But all Eyes and mouths are now pointed to the tiny country that is Ireland with its record as one of the safest countries in the world for pregnant women, with only 3 in 100,000 dying during child birth. We also have one of the lowest child mortality rates in the world. Why is this not on the news?

              1. psycheskinner profile image81
                psycheskinnerposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                I think the outrage has a rational basis in how cruel and unnecessary this death was for a patient in a first world hospital.  And the prevailing law and culture in the nation is a genuine contributing variable. As witness the current moves to change the law, change the hospital protocols and censure the doctor. Change comes from accepting the role of national standards, formal and informal, not denying them.  This would be equally true if it happened in any other country.

                1. cfin profile image80
                  cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Really? I disagree. If a woman in India is pregnant with a girl, she will be forced to have an abortion. This has been the case for tens of thousands of babies. Is this reported every time this happens? Just one example.

                  Ireland voted in a referendum to allow abortion if the mothers life is at risk, if she was raped, or is suicidal. The current law, as I stated reflects the Irish peoples wishes and this woman should have had an abortion. If you are willing to get down off your preaching soap box and view Irish people as your equal for once, then you would see that. But instead you keep repeating false statements of fact.

                  The culture reflects the dead woman's right to an abortion. The law also reflects her right. The doctor failed her. My wife was rejected the right in Madison Wisconsin and had to wait 3 days while miscarrying. I am Irish. Does my culture reflect now? While a friend of mine in Ireland had an ectopic pregnancy and was granted an abortion within 12 hours. This is fact, this is the law.  Stop preaching down at people! Its hurtful and unnecessary.

                  Go look up Dr Harold Fredrick Shipman, and many others and then go preach to someone else. Your ulterior motive and superior attitude is frustrating and down right rude.

                  1. psycheskinner profile image81
                    psycheskinnerposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    There are a lot of unusual events and horrible events in the world.  But dying of miscarraige/sepitcemia in a first world hosptial sure as hell is one of them. And the fact it happens in an enlightened nation with a high standard of living is part of what *makes* it very much worthy of comment.  Like a person dying of the plague in Boston, or committing suicide by fire in London.  It is extreme, outrageous and painful. It is clearly worthy of comment and discussion.

                    And sweeping it under the rug is one thing the Irish Prime Minister clearly knows is no longer acceptable to the Irish people.  This is a time for openness and acceptance of what happened in homes for fallen girls, with women having their pelvis broken without their consent to avoid caesarian, with abuse in boys homes.  No more silences.  Instead: transparency, investigation, corrections and healing.

                    Those that abuse, endanger or exploit should not be protected just because we have the same passport as them.

                    And honestly, we tear strips pf people from the US in this forum all the time, no one assumes it is because they are American or that being American should make them immune from criticism.  Why would Ireland be any different?

                  2. Uninvited Writer profile image83
                    Uninvited Writerposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    India does NOT make you get an abortion if you are pregnant with a girl. Many women might go to illegal abortionists due to some misguided idea that having a girl is bad.

                    "The Medical Termination of Pregnancy (MTP) Act of India clearly states the conditions under which a pregnancy can be ended or aborted, the persons who are qualified to conduct the abortion and the place of implementation.[2] Some of these qualifications are as follows:

                    Women whose physical and/or mental health were endangered by the pregnancy[1]
                    Women facing the birth of a potentially handicapped or malformed child[1]
                    Rape[1]
                    Pregnancies in unmarried girls under the age of eighteen with the consent of a guardian[1]
                    Pregnancies in "lunatics" with the consent of a guardian[1]
                    Pregnancies that result are a result of failure in sterilization[1]"


                    Why do people trying to build up their own country always have to attack another's country.

                    This doctor was wrong... but no one is suggesting we blame the entire country of Ireland. People have a right to question if the abortion laws in the country contributed to her death. It would be the same if it happened in the US or Canada.

              2. pennyofheaven profile image81
                pennyofheavenposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                I have no problem with Ireland. Nor have I ran it down. I do not make claims about anything if I have little or no information about it. I tend to look for the good more often than I look for the bad anyway. I am sure it is all that you say and more.

                Unfortunately good news is not sensational enough to get the attention media need.. It does not attract as many readers/viewers as negative news.  It reveals that most people are negatively geared. Their viewing then encourages the media to continue reporting in this manner. The more viewers the more sensational the news has to be to hold their attention.

                I think it is this negative inclination that has caused people to make assumptions about a country like Ireland.

                1. cfin profile image80
                  cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Here is another good one, I just discovered that the media here spun the words of our leader. He was being bullied by India (because they have a stellar human rights record) on the issue and he said no one would rush him (because rushed legislation was the cause of this in the first place).

                  Even though their is legislation being put on front of our parliament today, people are saying we are brushing it under the rug. hows that for unfair media and bullying of a whole nation?

                  http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1119/x-case … rtion.html

                  1. pennyofheaven profile image81
                    pennyofheavenposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    And the doctors involved are probably glad the spot light was never on them or their inability to do their job properly. When all else fails use something legal to point the finger in another direction. If the husband does not get caught up in the media frenzy I do hope he demands an enquiry.

                    The media has so much influence on people it is astounding how many fall into their trap. Most are adamant that they can think for themselves. From the reactions you mention, it does not seem that way.

    2. pennyofheaven profile image81
      pennyofheavenposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      This article sounds too incomplete. It makes no sense at all.

      If they knew she was miscarrying, termination can not be viewed as aborting can it?

      If the miscarrying was affecting her health and termination would mean her health would improve then why would they not do that? Given that she was miscarrying anyway.

      Gosh it sounds like they do not have all the facts and there is much more to it than what is reported.

      1. Sapper profile image68
        Sapperposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Would seem that way, but it's not. They refused to do anything until the "baby" no longer had a heart beat, and them waiting killed the lady. Not much to it other than that.

        1. pennyofheaven profile image81
          pennyofheavenposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          And you know this how?

          1. psycheskinner profile image81
            psycheskinnerposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            That is what the media are reporting. That they refused her repeated requests to abort after she began to miscarry and suffered terrible pain, because the fetus still had a heartbeat.

            1. pennyofheaven profile image81
              pennyofheavenposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Their law also states that if the mothers health is in danger they can remove the fetus. I am more inclined to think it has more to do with incompetence too.

              1. pisean282311 profile image54
                pisean282311posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                incompetence may be since they categorically said no operation as long as fetus has heart beat...i guess they could no gauge risk on life of mother...

                1. pennyofheaven profile image81
                  pennyofheavenposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  It is highly possible that she went in to the hospital with the condition she died of. Many woman do not get infected when a fetus dies in their womb. Some women may not have known that they were ever pregnant and they can have a dead fetus in their womb for years without knowing.

                  If the fetus did infect her, it appears it did so while she was alive.

                  Since she went in complaining with the symptoms that might indicate septicimia they might have missed it thinking it had something to do with the baby. It may even have been the cause for the miscarriage. We probably will never know.

                  There is not enough information to go by.

                  1. kathleenkat profile image84
                    kathleenkatposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    There is also no way to determine for sure, that had she been allowed a termination of pregnancy, that it would have saved her life.

    3. cfin profile image80
      cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      I would just like to state, as a legal professional. Article 40.3.3 of the Irish constitution allows women to obtain an abortion once their life is threatened, if they have been raped or the baby was conceived through incest. This case has been blown way out of proportion and the "Paddy whackery" by the media is even starting to creep into the mind of Irish people. The doctor was wrong, and yes the law does need to be updated!! But bad things happen all the time in every country.

      Further, the article has not yet ascertained all of the facts. Would she have dies without an abortion? Did she try to cause an abortion on her own terms, and thus causing the infection. Was the doctor Indian? as about 35% of our doctors are Indian.

      My point is, the doctor made a bad call. None of you have ever been to Ireland so stop with the racism. Its a great little country with the need to update 1 law.

      Why doesn't the media go to China where there are forced abortions, or India where civil rights are non existent and bash them. Because Ireland is an easy target. I am pro choice although I would be sad to see a healthy child aborted. Stop this nonsense please!

    4. profile image60
      retief2000posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Sounds more like a problem with a compassionless bureaucracy than any notions about the moral implications of abortion.  Poor medical decision making more than a repressive Catholic society seems to be the ultimate cause.  What doctor would actually say wait if there was a medical inevitability - either the mother dies or the baby dies.  Clearly the baby was dieing and would not recover to be delivered from a dead mother;s womb.  It is not the Irish position on abortion that was the cause of this woman's death but rather her stupid doctor - or would that be the doctor assigned to her rather than one she chose for herself - not sure how Irish OB-GYNs work.

  2. kathleenkat profile image84
    kathleenkatposted 4 years ago

    I am wondering if, perhaps, the crew at the hospital would have lost their right to practice medicine had they illegally aborted the baby.

    Sticky, sticky, situation here. I, too, am awaiting to see how this pans out.

    1. pisean282311 profile image54
      pisean282311posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      quite possible...i cant blame them since they worked in available legal frame work...i am questioning the very frame work...in end we lost two lives even if we go by catholic standard...

      1. cfin profile image80
        cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        People are just annoying me at this point. Thousands of abortions are carried out each year in Ireland legally. The doctor made the wrong call by not allowing her to abort if he beleieved her life was in danger. If he did believe so, she had the right to an abortion under the current law.

  3. CASE1WORKER profile image78
    CASE1WORKERposted 4 years ago

    It's a pity she was too ill to take her over the border to Northern Ireland.
    However it brings out in the open the medical dilemnas faced by staff; but I guess there are a lot of doctors who would have done it but would not have admitted that they would do it

  4. Mighty Mom profile image90
    Mighty Momposted 4 years ago

    The story is on NBC News right now.

  5. psycheskinner profile image81
    psycheskinnerposted 4 years ago

    Even in Ireland you can abort to save the mother rather then let both die.  They were flat out incompetent to let her die of septicemia.

    1. cfin profile image80
      cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Even in Ireland? Im sorry did we just land in the Sudan?

  6. profile image0
    Emile Rposted 4 years ago

    Another stellar example of the outcome of universal health care.

    1. Sapper profile image68
      Sapperposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      No, this is a stellar example of religion murdering people for outdated beliefs. It has nothing to do with healthcare.

      1. psycheskinner profile image81
        psycheskinnerposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Indeed.  They had every facility and skill needed to save her at their fingertips.  They had the legal justification to do so at no profession risk. 

        They let her die for religious reasons.

      2. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Well, it was a facility run by the government. Call it what you will, as much as people belly ache about religion in America, I'd be surprised to hear of that happening here; without a malpractice suit right behind it.

        1. Uninvited Writer profile image83
          Uninvited Writerposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          The problem is caused by the ban on abortion in any case.

          1. psycheskinner profile image81
            psycheskinnerposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            It is legal to abort to save the mother, even in Ireland. The doctor is hiding behind the inexact wording as to when this is deemed to kick in.

            1. cfin profile image80
              cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Will you stop with the "even in Ireland". Ireland is a great country. This topic has been blown way out of proportion and is a total attempt to bash an otherwise great little country.

              1. pisean282311 profile image54
                pisean282311posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                who is questioning greatness of ireland?....

              2. Sapper profile image68
                Sapperposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Religion, not country.

                1. cfin profile image80
                  cfinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Take a glance through some of the comments. Take a look on some of the article across the web. It really saddens me. The economic collapse hit the little island hard enough with its export driven economy, when no one is importing high quality  anymore.

                  Irish people are critical enough of their own country. A people prone to complaining about every little thing. This bad media is taking its toll on many of my friends who are extremely embarrassed by this. The font page of CNN and Foxnews, and below each article thousands of people having a go at the country (not just religion). We aren't even a religious people anymore. Not to mention the fact that some people were writing things like ;hubpages hubber' below. Some even used the opportunity to point out how they feel Ireland should have been wiped out that we were backward useless people. I have had just about enough of this one sided biased media trash. What has Ireland done to anyone, that other countries haven't? A women died. It was a mistake.

      3. kathleenkat profile image84
        kathleenkatposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Not disagreeing, but it was still a government-operated hospital operating under the rules set forth by the government.

        If it were a woman who did not want an abortion, and they did it anyway to save her life, she would probably issue a lawsuit. Can't please everyone! tongue

        1. pisean282311 profile image54
          pisean282311posted 4 years agoin reply to this

          i would prefer being sued for saving one life then killing two for sake of invisible god or rather interpretation of invisible god and his word...

 
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