Being Ashamed of Your Country

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   Sooner28posted 11 years ago

   Not all of the right, but a sizable enough jingoistic majority to cause a stir, detests anyone who ever claims they are "not proud" of America.  Anytime a liberal even suggests that they don't agree with every action the United States does and is ashamed of some of them, there are calls of "America: love it or leave it", and accusations of "blaming America first", as Rush Limbaugh likes to characterize it.
   
   However, the people most likely to engage in such narrow minded criticism often times are big fans of Rush Limbaugh.  Good ole Rush has now openly declared he is ashamed of his country, but I have a suspicion there will be very little outcry over this from the same people who attack liberals who share the same sentiments.
   
   http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/2 … 54946.html

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      whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I'm ashamed of it too, at least I was proud of it before I was ashamed of it.

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         mattforteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I was proud of America. Then the (un)Patriot Act appeared. And things have only gone downhill since. We now live in a country dominated by a Congress that doesn't listen to it's people, and makes the president powerless to do anything about anything. (Whether you like Obama or not, NO president will ever be able to make headway until Congress cleans up the bipartisan warfare)

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            whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            My congressman listens to me and about 85% of his constituency according to polls.

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      Barefootfaeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Consider that those statements were probably made for different reasons.
      Right?

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         Sooner28posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Clearly so.  But if Rush Limbaugh can make them without incurring the ire of the right, one is forced to admit the hypothetical that if the liberal were correct in his moral assessment, he could make the same claim also.

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            Paul Wingertposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            It's been 3 years and that fat, loudmouth assh**e is still here in the US after declaring that he'd move to Costa Rica if the Health Care Reform Act passed. What is he waiting for? Does he need packing boxes or a ride to the airport?

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   JaxsonRaineposted 11 years ago

   I'm ashamed of what America is becoming in many ways. America should get better with time, allow more freedom... but we're moving backward.

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      Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      "America should get better with time, allow more freedom..."
      
      I thought you were a Conservative who wants to oppress minorities, LGBTs, and non-militaristic scientific progress. When the hell have you savages ever cared about giving the people more freedom?

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         He of all people is not a savage. Why the rudeness? The freedom he is talking about escapes you. Don't take your hatred based on your confusion out on just anybody... just because you can in an anonymous manner.
         Boundaries, please.

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            Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            He's a Conservative, so therefore he believes:
            
            - Companies are more important than people
            - Separation of Church and State is a myth
            - If you're not a rich white male, you're cattle
            - The 2nd Amendment = buy more guns, screw the consequences!
            - Nonrenewable resources are renewable resources
            
            So yeah. He's a savage.

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Are you white?

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                  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Whiter than the guy who invented polka.

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Deleted
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                        JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Someone who intentionally posts inflammatory remarks in order to get a rise out of people.

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                        Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        A troll is someone who makes a ludicrous statement and then darts away to watch the chaos unfold.
                        
                        A troll is NOT someone who posts an opinion different from your own. You and your political friends may be dense, backward, homophobic, racist, money-grubbing fiends who revel in the sorrow and suffering of the less fortunate...but at least you're not a troll!

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                           JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           Ok, then you're simply rude, and you're breaking the terms you agreed to in order to use this forum.

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               JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I'm not 'a Conservative'. I tend toward conservative/libertarian ideology. Not all Conservatives agree either.
               
               I think people are more important than companies, yet companies are made up of people.
               I think that Separation of Church and State is misunderstood by most.
               I have no bias according to race.
               I do believe in the importance of an armed populace.
               Latest studies suggest we have at least 200 years worth of oil in the US alone.

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               A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               "You think that I'm an ignorant savage. And you've been so many places... I guess it must be so. But, still, I cannot see... if the savage one is me. How can there be so much that you don't know? You don't... knowwwwww.
               
               ... You think the only people who are people... are the people who look and think like you. But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger, you'll learn things you never knew you never knew..."
               
               There's more wisdom in Pocahontas than I think people realize.
               
               Anyway, friend, I think you're being unnecessarily callous. I'm no conservative myself, nor am I a liberal. But, as is with basically anything else, you can't make such hasty generalizations... Much of what you say is true, but not across the board. And to personally attack this man who's done nothing to you is a bit much.
               
               I agree with much of what you say otherwise.Or at least... the ideas and frustration behind the words.

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         Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Tossing in a little hate speech never hurt much?

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            Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Don't dish it if you can't take it, Conservative.

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               Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               People post such nonsense either because they are willfully ignorant or just do not know better.
               
               I believe you know better!

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               Barefootfaeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Grow up and learn something childish liberal.

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         JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Calm down there Z. I'm conservative/libertarian. There is no political party/ideology that meshes 100% with my beliefs, and no party that has done 100% what I agree with and 0% what I disagree with.
         
         I've been for gay rights since I was about 10 years old. I've never been for oppressing anybody. Calm down before you get banned.

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   innersmiffposted 11 years ago

   There is no reason to be ashamed of what is not your responsibility. People hold an inordinate amount of attachment towards the government, to a point where there is a common perception that the US government IS America. I've never been impressed by this view. We should be as ashamed as much as we've contributed to it, e.g. if we've voted for bad politicians, but not any more than that.
   
   People need to realise, and I'm addressing a few on this forum too, that when I criticise the American government, I am not criticising America, or any personal aspect. I've liked most Americans I've interacted with - I have an American girlfriend for goodness sake. Stop taking everything so personally.

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      whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I'm not talking about our government, I'm ashamed of 51% who voted for Obama! Don't care for our government much though.

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         innersmiffposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Then you are feeling ashamed for other people, who have nothing to do with you. You didn't make them vote for Obama, so why on Earth do you need to be ashamed?

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            whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            My countries education system created them.

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               innersmiffposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Are you the head of the Department of Education? Did you specifically vote for these bad education policies?
               
               You're awfully determined to be hard on yourself

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                  whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  My tax dollars paid for their non education.
                  
                  I will flog myself at a later date.

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                     innersmiffposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     That implies taxation is somehow voluntary. Chill, it's not your fault!

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                        whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Leave me alone I'm being ashamed at the moment.

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                  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  innersmiff, you don't have to be responsible to be ashamed. To feel shame
                  
                  shame: a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety
                  
                  can be because of other causes than guilt. America, as a whole, is weakening. Liberty is being lost. Education is poor. Costs are high. Inefficiency is high... there are a lot of shortcomings that can cause someone who is patriotic to the ideal of a free nation to feel shame.

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   Sooner28posted 11 years ago

   I think the responses thus far show an expression problem when it comes to this topic, which is what "being ashamed of a country" really means.
   
   Are you ashamed of the people who voted for the bad politician, and ashamed of the bad politician's actions? 
   
   Are you ashamed of the general direction American foreign policy has taken over the last 50 years, which would make both parties and nearly all voters morally culpable?
   
   What about a situation like Obama or Bush, where they didn't campaign on furthering the surveillance/police state, but their actions are clear as day.  Obama could be more reprehensible, because he portrayed himself as a defender of civil liberties and vowed to right the excessive wrongs of the Bush administration.  Oh what a lie that was.
   
   Or, there is a possibility of being ashamed of oneself, for not keeping a clear mind when evaluating a political candidate and being swayed by soaring rhetoric.

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   LauraD093posted 11 years ago

   No I'm not ashamed. As a person hung up on individualism I have always been mistrusting of any group that wants me to think a certain way be it a church,organization or my own government. I take responsibility for my own belief-systems and at times apathy toward what the government is doing. "We the People," have always been lied to by politicians it just didn't start recently with Obama or Bush. Our country has also done horrible things to people of other nations in the name of democracy that I do not agree with nor support but I don't take a personal responsibility for it. The majority rules the individual protests and tries to implement change. It has been a process taking place all the way back to our "Founding Fathers,"who lied to their constituents just like the politicians do today. I am proud to be an American but also define myself as being an American who realizes that our system has flaws. Most political systems do. Shame? No. Frustration at times? Yes.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

   America has been established. We have been here a short time. It will last a long time. Longer than we will. Our grand children's grandchildren will live here. Posterity should really be our concern. America is for Life. It is for families. It for creativity, joy and love. It will survive if we concentrate on our happiness and the happiness of other nations. If the citizens focus on what is truly important, our representatives will have to follow suit... or be voted out.
   So, lets pay attention and vote wisely for the sake of today and the future. We can always look forward. Not back.
   Sermon for today over.

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   Zelkiiroposted 11 years ago

   Rush Limbaugh was a teenager when Segregation was (finally) put down and destroyed, he was in his 20s when the Vietnam War ended, and he was in his 30s when Ronald Reagan was elected.
   
   If none of those things made him feel ashamed of America, then there's nothing that asshole has to say that should ever interest anyone. And if you actually are a supporter of Rush Limbaugh, you're the worst kind of filth there is.

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      Barefootfaeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Spoken like a world wise teenager.

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         JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Zelkiiro, what's your problem? Why so much anger?

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            Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Because the nation I was born in, which delights so much in calling itself the greatest in the world, has a terrible education system and the worst healthcare system in the industrialized world while "lesser" countries like Denmark and Finland are miles ahead of us in every way? And our only solution to bettering ourselves is to continue to pretend we're the best?

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               Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               

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               JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               And what does that have to do with you being so rude to anyone you think is 'a Conservative'?

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                  Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Because both of those problems are easily fixed, yet are opposed at every turn by Conservatives, maybe?
                  
                  Update our science textbooks to the 20th century, let alone the 21st? SECULAR LIBERAL BRAINWASHING DEGENERATES
                  Give our schools' arts and humanities departments more than $5 a year? PINKO COMMIE HIPPY LIBERAL PANTYWAISTS
                  Provide affordable, effective, and easily-accessible healthcare like the rest of the world? DIRTY SOCIALIST ANTI-AMERICAN LIBERAL BASTARDS

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     -you are shouting and we don't like it.
                     It makes us think you are very troubled.
                     Sorry, if your life is not going so well.
                     The will (doing what you like) is to the psyche what the heart is to the body. Stop abusing freedom of speech (negative) and go have some fun (positive).

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            Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            
            
            

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      Sooner28posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      This is a good point, but it's not surprising because some on the right (I wouldn't say a majority) think the Vietnam War was justified.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

   Jaxson, can you recommend some good books for Mr. Z, or those like him, to read?
   -and for what its worth... conservatives do not want to "oppress minorities." On the contrary, we DO NOT!
   Did President Reagan?
   Well, did he?

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      JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Not really, I'm not that educated. I would just recommend the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Federalist papers, and other works by the founding fathers.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Many liberals do not understand or forget that conservatives and republicans have drifted away from each other.
         Mr. Z :
              Please don't think that all conservatives are like Rush of the Clearwater Channel (who advocated Nafta) or like the Grand Old Party. We want what all people want. A life where we can work, and survive. It really just gets down to human survival and economic freedom through independence, (which naturally encompasses interdependence.)
              There are natural resources of energy in this country and we should have access to them and be able to depend on them for the sake of our own independence! The word own here includes all people no matter what race, genetic code, culture, etc.
              America has always been a melting pot. We have all known that it is in our best interest to embrace one another and get over any lingering prejudices.
         Now we are trying to accept LGBT's as you put it and it isn't easy. But, they are people with hearts and souls and so of course we do. I actually commend Obama for doing so. We are all individuals and it is odd that you lump all into one evil right winged category.
         You do not have to...
         So don't,
         for you your own peace of mind.

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      Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      "Now we are trying to accept LGBT's as you put it and it isn't easy."
      
      What's not easy about it? Seriously, now.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Look who can't even spell out those terms. You have reduced them to single capital letters. Why is that?
         I personally, have a hard time accepting Ellen Degeneres. It really creeps me out that she is so famous, yet married to a gal. Sorry... and I am not alone. Even the bible says that homosexuality is an abomination. Oh, what!? We can't discuss that? Like they have never heard that fact?  Well, its there in the bible for some reason... probably to warn us not to go there... but they do any way. Should we shun fellow human beings for "going there?" No, because Jesus came with a new way. If it were not for Jesus saying, "...those who are without sin may go ahead and throw the first stone," a lot of us from both parties might be throwing stones at them.
         In my opinion.
         PS If anyone of either party wants to give me a keyboard lashing... I probably need to be enlightened, in which case, I'm all eyes.

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            Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Grow up and stop sticking your nose in the personal lives of others, what business is it of yours or anyone who someone chooses to love or sleep with?

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               OK What about children. What do two men know about raising children and keeping them safe. Have you listened to the news recently?  It goes against common sense. Sex is for the reproduction of the species. That was not much of a key board lashing. I feel sympathy for those who wake up each morning and do not feel typical, uh, romantic impulses. But whatever. I'm getting over it, since I have to adapt to the times.
               But guys, don't take your children out in the cold San Francisco Sea in boat without life jackets, etc. Mothers would not have allowed this.

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                  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I see! We're all damned for the sins of a few!

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Sorry... no. 
                     I should have said, gay men with children and other men who leave their babies on top of cars or in the back seat of cars and forget to drop them off at daycare... just them, not you or the vast majority of great dads and male types.
                     I will now cease...

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                        John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Oh so now it's only gay men who can't look after their children!
                        
                        Never in the whole history of the world has mother ever "forgotten" her baby or driven them while drunk and incapable.

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                           Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           ok ok  But, you know what I'm saying.
                           I don't have statistics but I hear (on the news) mostly about men doing that. Maybe I am prejudiced? Men are not biologically in tune with children as women are. It is possible that they can be, but it is not the norm. They have to make extra effort and perhaps even extra training. It does not come naturally with the same intensity for men as with women.
                           Thats what I believe because I have never seen a man with the same intensity that I had as mother. It was so intense that even I was shocked! And its because of hormones and evolution and the bond which was established when the child was in the womb. This super bonding, I believe, is the way nature designed it for the survival of the child. There are aberrations as far as women, of course. But, that is what they are. Probably caused by unhealthy eating, pharmaceutical use, alcohol use or abuse etc. What I know is that you or/and others will be able to refute this. LOL Bring it on! I would like to know otherwise: that two men can be good parents... and two women as well.
                           -but, that would not be staying on topic.
                           Never mind.

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                              John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              I think gay men are far more likely to be in tune with the needs of children than heterosexual men!
                              
                              Hows that for a counter stereotype?

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                                 Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 - we need proof of all these conjectures and surmises. But, no one is coming forth with severe arguments or accusations.

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                                    John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    As we need proof for your conjectures and surmises

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                                       Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       I did say "all these!" (you had only one.)

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   LauraD093posted 11 years ago

   http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news … usted-kids
   http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news … usted-kids
   
   and to be fair(but if you have the time read the full article)
   
   http://seismicmike.wordpress.com/2013/0 … -children/
   
   although I really think this particular thread should be happening on Sooner28's other forum lol

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Thank You, Laura D.

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    Sooner28posted 11 years ago

    This forum has taken some interesting turns, and it's enlightening to read them.
    
    Originally, I attacked the jingoism that has infiltrated much of the Republican party.  If anyone ever dares suggest the United States is not the greatest nation in the world, or has committed moral abominations in its past, many conservatives implode on themselves.
    
    I don't like calling anyone a savage.  I believe people can hold outrageous, immoral, unjustified beliefs, but human history shows change is a real possibility.  Look at American society today.  Slavery is gone, and women can vote!  America's founding population could not even conceive of such a state of affairs.  Yet, here we are, always renewing ourselves.
    
    Anyone who has spoken to me at all knows I am direct with my criticism, especially if I perceive a weakness in someone's argument.  For example, I have a gay brother, so anyone who claims gay people should be treated unequally will earn my ire.  I have no tolerance for bigotry, and if it runs deep enough, I won't significantly associate with the person.
    
    However, I force myself to remember the humanity behind the position.  I don't see most people as ultimately unreachable or inherently corrupt; I see possibilities for change.  To the person against gay marriage, I don't doubt their sincerity.  They truly believe homosexuality is an immoral choice, and based on that belief, it would then follow that society should decide whether to restrict it or not.  Not all immoral actions should be illegal, such as cheating or lying to a friend, but the door is open when this belief is affirmed.
    
    Public opinion has consistently changed on this issue, so it's only a matter of time before we treat gay Americans equally.

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       A Thousand Wordsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Oh Sooner. Slavery is still very much alive in this country. It just doesn't have much to do with race anymore. We are slaves to our debtors, other countries, food, our own "rights" and self-interest.
       
       On a more serious note, I agree mostly all of what you said. But, change is hard because of the ones who fight tooth and nail to keep it from happening...

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          Sooner28posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Well, wage slavery is alive and well, no doubt.  I don't know if you've ever investigated actual arguments in favor of slavery, but one of the strategies slaveholders used was to claim that slavery treated the "lower rungs of society" more humanely than the capitalist system of the time, because slaves didn't have to worry about being homeless or finding consistent work.
          
          http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h3439t.html  This is a famous speech, and many people still believe some of this today.

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