Prompted by a CNN "The Sixties" segment,
I admit I was unaware...
That in the 60s women made 59 cents for the same work a man was paid a dollar.
That access to birth control. was generally illegal - a long process and a compassionate doctor were necessary to get it - and then only for "married" women.
I think we have come a hellava long way!
What say you?
I don't know about the other ladies, but I can barely wrap my mind around all those great big facts, GA.
The birth control restricted to married women was the one that shocked me. I grew up in the sixties and this was never on my radar. (I was a Trojans guy).
I think that's my new favorite quote on the forum.
I recently read a rant from a girl about 20, dissing women's rights and wondering why anyone would call themselves a "feminist." I'm 59, and unless you had a rich family and went to college, the only jobs available to you were clerk typist and receptionist jobs. I was lucky to land a position in an international department of a bank. And even girls who went to college then were still mostly looking for husbands. So we fought for equal pay, birth control, the right to choose, and they have it on our backs, and complain about it. They just don't understand what it was like then, and it was accepted that your boss would make lewd comments and you were supposed to serve him coffee. Many men treated all the women like slaves or harassed them, while pushing off most of the work on the women, even though we made so much less money than they did. I never made coffee for a boss, my own husband was capable of cooking and basic household chores, so I believed all men should be. Even now, some women I know brag about "how my husband can't even boil water." Why would you want to be with someone so dumb?
Ha... Now be nice Jean,
"Even now, some women I know brag about "how my husband can't even boil water." Why would you want to be with someone so dumb?"
You are old enough to know about the reality of different strokes for different folks. Maybe that guy that can't boil water excels in other areas - like being caring and sensitive, or a dependable provider, or... (no, I did not mention the first "other" excelling possibility that probably came to mind for some of you. )
As for the rest of your comment relating to the "feminist" thing, speaking from a probably wrong male perspective, (see, after 38 years with her I have learned that being wrong is a possibility, (or a probability)), I would offer that what feminism really means and the portrayed image of what it is are probably very different things.
Mr. Anderson, we have indeed come a VERY LONG way in terms of women's role in the workplace, sexuality, and reproductive rights. Yes, birth control was quite a contentious subject in America before the 1960s despite the inroads that Margaret Sanger and other birth control advocates made. There was a book(forgot the name of book) that indicated that birth control was illegal, even for married women. The thought was sex was for marriage and procreation and that anything that "interfered" in such this cress was deemed unnatural. Also, it was thought that "nice" women do not think about birth control. Yes, we have come a LONG, LONG way; however, we have to fight against these recidivists who want to take away women's reproductive rights.
Those were the same points made in the CNN show. It included taped interviews and quotes from the era that provided the context of the show.
CNN has done several "The Sixties" 2 hr. specials, all on different aspects; civil rights, women's rights, politics, etc... The ones I have seen so far have been excellent - in my opinion.
It was the quality of the show's presentation and perspective that prompted me to create this thread. I grew up in the era - and was unaware, (or culturally blind to). of many of its highlights. Especially, as mentioned, about the illegality of birth control.
ps. GA is a lot easier on my antennae than Mr. Anderson. If you don't mind of course. )
Hmm... now what could you mean by that?
My spidey sense is sending me warning signals.
You men use such big words, sometimes I find it hard to follow.
We've definitely come a long way. What has to happen now is that men need to stop acting like they are the be it all opinion in these matters. There needs to be more women serving the people. This is something that is on women as much as society to let it happen. The personality difference between men and women is a big factor. Men have a bigger competitive drive so when it comes to work they push themselves more. A lot of women have broken the mold and shown that they to can push themselves into great opportunity. This is something society as a whole needs to push. The people sitting up in the big chairs, 60-70% which are men, need to stop criticizing and allow women to speak for themselves.
Let me start with the fact I support women having equal rights since I think many will lose that part as I go on.
Yes women have come a long way! There have been great strides towards equality. In a lot of ways it has over reached and gone too far. Some companies are scared to fire female employees for fear of being accused of treating them differently. Other companies are put in positions where they are close to forced to give promotions to female workers who are undeserving. State medical financial aid helps women much more than men. Men are treated differently in family court than a woman. Men are not able to call out sexual harassment as easily as women. So while I am all for equality, I am not for superiority when it comes to any group of people as a whole. Women have a long way to go in a couple areas still, but their rights have superseded men's in other ways.
I don't recall hearing too many stories of bosses who were coerced into giving women promotions, as the United States has less women in positions of power than most European countries, or any developed countries.
A Human Resources department of a company won't even take a woman seriously if she complains of being harassed, unless she has a relative who owns the company, or the wealth to hire a very costly lawyer to represent her, and she would be dragged through the mud in court. Any man she had sex with, any personal details of her life would be disclosed if she chose that route.
Women who are having heart attacks get kicked out of ER's because their symptoms are different than men having heart attacks, and they often die when they get home.
But I do agree that men don't get treated fairly either. I do see strides in custody cases, where more Dads are getting the children if they are the better parent. It's true a man would have more trouble explaining he was getting harassed at work. My son is a teacher's aide in kindergarten, and constantly gets passed over for a classroom of his own, because he is a guy, and he can't call a school system out for sexism, or his career would be over and he would be labeled a troublemaker. He's even been asked if he was a pedophile because he has a gift for working with children. He didn't need a 4.0 average in college to do that.
So as you say, we all have a long way to go. We need both the Yin and the Yang, right?
My husband and myself have had first hand experience in positions of hiring/firing where women have used the fact they are women to manipulate the system. My husband worked for a company where a woman used the FMLA to stay out of work 12 weeks every year, took her 4 weeks of vacation, plus use the system to get temporary disability for depression for her max amount of weeks EVERY YEAR my husband was there. When she was looked over for a promotion for not being reliable she sued them and to keep their name out of the spot light they took the promotion from the other person and gave her a settlement amount of money to keep her from dragging their name through the mud! After this she constantly came in late or didn't come to work. They were scared to fire her because they were afraid she'd make something back up and sue them again. When I was a manager of a restaurant I saw countless females use their sexuality to get the male managers to go easy on them then get mad when those same managers flirted back and run to HR. This is not isolated. It's common in many places of work.
As for healthcare, were you aware that a man with breast cancer can not qualify for the same Medicaid program issued to women with Cancer? In 2011 a man had to sue to get the same rights from the state when he found out he had breast cancer and was denied.. A woman can also get qualified for permanent (Tubal) Birth control through medicaid but a man with medicaid can not get a vasectomy. Also at least in my state a man can not get medicaid under the age of 65 for any reason except having a minor child or a disease(an even denied over 50% with that) but a woman can get a form of Medicaid called Family Planning medicaid even with no children or any diseases that will cover her yearly check up. My husband was one of the men who had to fight for the same rights as females last year after walking around with a ruptured appendix for over a week, by the time he had surgery he was infected inside. He had a very expensive stay in the hospital that would have been covered by medicaid if it had been me. He was denied twice before he got the same medicaid a woman in my state would have gotten on the first time. So pardon me if I am a bit personal with the whole discrimination thing.
Being Misdiagnosed and denied are two different things. Men are flat out denied services that women get without much question. Your son is a perfect example of how unfairness in the workplace can impact men as well. I'm sorry he has to go through that. I remember my favorite teacher was a really cool Male math teacher. All in all yes, we do have a good way to go.
WOW, sorry I finished this and realized I almost wrote a book. My apologies!
You make good points, and I think they are pertinent to my response to Jean concerning the intention vs. the perception of "Feminism."
Like many things in life, it is always a possibility that things can be taken too far, and it is usually "the easy road" choices that taint an issue's legitimacy...
I can't compliment her on her good looks or bearing - that might be sexual harassment."
I have to promote her over Joe because I don't want to take a chance on a sex discrimination charge."
I can't I can't, and a lot more irrational I can'ts all because of the many really shouldn't-haves that preceded me.
Thanks for that perspective Peeples
I understand every marriage is different, and the man who can't boil water could be a rocket scientist (though I doubt it). But yes, I am sure he has good qualities. I was married for 34 yrs. and dated my husband for 5 before that. He always cooked and did a lot of the heavy housework, as I have back problems, and we both worked full time--or I did until I couldn't. Since I worked in banks and accounting, I always handled the money. In a good marriage, we all do what we do the best.
Your post reminded me of a guy I worked with who became a friend. We were having coffee at work one morning (he made it) and he said, "You look pretty today." And then he blushed, and said, "OMG, I probably shouldn't have said that." So I guess there is fear among men and women that if they compliment each other, they could get in trouble in the workplace. I think everyone is confused now by all the political correctness that surrounds us.
Well Jean, it seems we have similar life experiences and perspectives. I dated my wife for six years before we married. And we have been married for 30 years, (come October). Although as a business owner and chauvinistic kinda guy - I handled our financials - I never failed to understand the importance of my wife's abilities and contributions to our life together.
But, unlike your co-worker, I never felt "cautious" about complimenting a women on her; looks, dress, personality, work performance or anything else. Well, maybe I did feel a little "cautious" that it would be taken wrong - but I did it anyway. So sue me.
Don't get me started on Political Correctness! I have been as anti-Politically Correct as I can be - on purpose - for as long as I can remember. Much to my chagrin in my youthful years.
Well, as a business owner, you are likely the better one to handle the finances. It's great to hear about couples who stay married, even though we go through good times and bad, since many couples don't honor their vows and run when the serious problems occur. Congratulations on a long marriage. It appears we both take our time making important decisions too.
My husband passed away this January at 58, it was a complete shock, we didn't know he was ill. Thankfully we have a son in his mid 20's still at home, so we can prop each other up and grieve together. I don't like it when people die and everyone acts like they were saints, since we all have our weak points. But he was a good and gentle man, very loved and respected by everyone. I realize how lucky I was to be loved by him, and am doing my best to work my way through beginning a new life. I came back to HP because I think using creative energies is good therapy, and although I wrote on other sites and my own blog for a few years, I always come back here, it's a great community.
From both general and resource management perspectives, I can add countless stories to support Peeple's assertions. You don't really want me to, do you?
I suspect there is merit to both sides of the discussion, varying from one corporate environment to another. In my experience with medium to large companies, and unionized groups, if there is inequity it will favor a minority group, out of fear of litigation.
Wow, that woman was a real piece of work! It's incredible how one manipulative person can do that much damage, no matter what sex they are.
I am not too familiar with Medicaid, though my son recently went on it as a result of the Affordable Care Act. So far his experiences have been quite negative, we live in New Jersey, and many doctors won't even take Medicaid patients. So the closest doctors he can go to are often about an hour away from home. If they were good doctors he chose to go to, that would be OK and worth it. But they seem like pretty bottom of the barrel doctors, they don't even listen, just want to see as many patients as possible, like an automated line. I am no longer covered by my husband's insurance as he passed on early this year, and have the privilege of paying $700.00 a month for my own insurance. I have chronic health issues and don't want to change doctors.
My Uncle had breast cancer, but he had a naval career and back then the military was taking care of their own, though I guess certain people would not realize men can get that too. That's a shame about your husband's appendix, that's a very dangerous condition. I'm glad he's OK. We really do have a long way to go, and I didn't realize there were so many discrepancies in our health care (or maybe I should say lack of health care). It wasn't a book, you feel passionate. If more people felt as you did, more would get done. Take care.
I'd compare the whole thing about what rights women have "on paper" with the whole thing about Google, Panda, and Internet writing. (and the aim to improve quality)...
There has been progress and improvements, much of it on paper only. In fact, as with what has happened with the aim to give searchers/advertisers something of quality; so much of the "bad stuff: has, at least in a lot of cases (not all) been driven farther underground (which can mean even more destructive, more disgusting, things going on - with fewer people even being able to recognize it).
When enough stuff gets driven underground all the rights in the world don't do a lot of people a lot of good.
It's true that just because a society or organization changes the laws, it doesn't always change behavior in people. They have to feel it's right to change in their hearts, and many are prejudiced in one way or another. It can take something really eye opening to make somebody change their mind.
Are you saying that you don't think women's rights have really made very much progress? Or are you just lamenting that there is still more to be done?
I personally think that feminism has done alot of good by giving women their rights...but i also think that people tend to take things much to far without realizing the underlying damage being caused. In comparison to giving someone who has never had freedom or money...what do they want when you give both to them? They want more, and they are willing to obtain it without looking at the bigger picture. My hub has alot of my opinions. While i'm not saying we should take away woman's rights...I am saying that perhaps we should focus more on family than on individuals, and narcissism, because that is what society is heading for in trying to gain individual freedom. Whats more powerful? An individual with to many rights, or a family with bonds?
http://taylorqualman.hubpages.com/hub/H … ng-Society
I wrote an article in 1972 when I was a student at the University of Georgia interviewing coeds on how much they had benefited from the Women's Movement. Most of them said they had gotten as far as they had on their own and didn't think the Movement had impacted them at all. In 1997 my daughter went to college saying almost exactly the same thing. Women who didn't experience the reality of the "Mad Men" days, have no concept of how much things have changed - mainly for the better.
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