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Trusting a president and his cabinet

  1. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 9 days ago

    With all of the untruths spouted by, not only the POTUS himself, but several of his closest advisors, I cannot understand how others simply brush the lies aside as if they meant nothing. I never thought I'd see the day when such blatant acts would happen on a daily basis. Not only is the administration up to its neck in the Russia investigation, more lies are exposed as if there wasn't enough to begin with.

    Feel free to join in the discussion if you can be reasonable and not use questionable sources to base your claims.

    1. wilderness profile image98
      wildernessposted 9 days agoin reply to this

      Why would anybody trust any politician, about any thing or at any time?  Not a one knows the difference between truth and lie - that one of the people in the cabinet was caught is surely nothing new on the American political field.

      It does make a great talking point, though - sure to increase divisiveness and hatred in people that don't like Trump.  Very useful for tearing the people apart while claiming that Trump is doing it.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image95
        Randy Godwinposted 8 days agoin reply to this

        Hey Dan, are you saying all presidents and their cabinet tell as many lies on a daily basis as Trump's crowd? Where do you get this from? Seriously, people all over the world are laughing at him!

        I'd be pleased to look at any evidence you have for your claims. By the way, it's just been reported Flynn has been caught in ANOTHER lie, Doh! A whistleblower received a text from Flynn saying the Russian sanctions would be dropped after Trump took office. Why so many lies if Trump and his cronies are innocent of wrongdoing, Dan? Inquiring minds an all that.....

        1. wilderness profile image98
          wildernessposted 8 days agoin reply to this

          I haven't kept count.  Did you? 

          Do you think anyone on the hill is innocent of all wrongdoing, Randy?  Or do you just pick on Trump because of a bad case of TDS?

          (Have to say that the only "inquiring mind" here is the one desperately seeking anything that even might look muddy and can be thrown.)

          1. Randy Godwin profile image95
            Randy Godwinposted 8 days agoin reply to this

            Dan, you didn't say if you thought Trump and his cronies have lied more than other admins or are they simply the norm. If the latter, then explain why if you please?

            1. wilderness profile image98
              wildernessposted 8 days agoin reply to this

              I plainly said I hadn't bothered to count.  I also asked if you had, but you seem to have refrained from answering that question.

              I'll add that it is pretty normal for a politician to lie.  Almost every time their mouth opens.

              1. PrettyPanther profile image84
                PrettyPantherposted 8 days agoin reply to this

                You honestly believe that the level of lying displayed by Donald Trump is on par with previous presidents?  There are numerous articles to be found online about how his lying compares to other politicians and previous presidents.  There is no need for Randy or anyone else here to count every lie.  They are well documented online.

                1. wilderness profile image98
                  wildernessposted 8 days agoin reply to this

                  PP, if you've followed this sub-thread you've seen me say, not once but twice, that I haven't counted.  There is no possibility of converting that statement into one saying I believe Trump does, or does not, lie more than other presidents.  Not honestly, anyway.

                  No, I haven't researched whether other people think he lies more or less, either.  I simply don't care as I find that all politicians lie, and lie on a regular basis.

                  As far as being documented: I will agree that a liberal press, and a severely divided country with a very angry liberal half, have documented every falsehood, intentional or not, that Trump has said. 

                  If you absolutely insist on what I think (as opposed to know) I will say that Trump exaggerates badly (a lie), is often mistaken (claimed by many to be a lie) and is extremely careless about how he says what he says (again claimed to be a lie by a great many).  I doubt that he has actually, intentionally lied any more than most politicians/presidents. 

                  Of course, I consider telling half the story to be lying.  I consider a slight spin to give the impression that something is true when it isn't to be a lie.  Any time, regardless of the method, that something untrue is intended to be the conclusion drawn by a listener/reader it is a lie.  Intent is king here, not methodology and not technicalities.

                  1. PrettyPanther profile image84
                    PrettyPantherposted 8 days agoin reply to this

                    Okay.

      2. jo miller profile image92
        jo millerposted 6 days agoin reply to this

        Lying is not a crime.  Lying to the FBI is.  That's what got him in trouble.

        1. wilderness profile image98
          wildernessposted 6 days agoin reply to this

          Lying to Congress is a crime, too, but Hillary got away with it.  We never heard even a squeak about her crime, let alone talk of jail time.  Of course, Flynn doesn't have her power...

          1. ahorseback profile image81
            ahorsebackposted 6 days agoin reply to this

            Oh that's what it is ,  the left has no memory of their lies compared to other lies  ......?
            Sadly you know , it is a left brain right brain issue.

          2. Randy Godwin profile image95
            Randy Godwinposted 5 days agoin reply to this

            Heck Dan, lock Hillary and Trump up for all I care. I'm not gonna make excuses for either of them if they've lied to the FBI, congress, and the people. But sexual predators are okay in Alabama and the White House. Do you agree or not.

            1. wilderness profile image98
              wildernessposted 5 days agoin reply to this

              I haven't found or heard of a reason to lock Trump up yet.  Lots and lots of ridiculous claims and spewing of hate, but no actual reasons.

              Hillary, on the other hand, absolutely committed crimes - crimes that other people paid for when they did similar things but that she got away with scott free.  When that investigation started I said she would never be prosecuted, guilty or not, and that turned out to be correct.  Trump I'm not so sure of - he simply does not have her extreme power base to help him out.  Instead he's hated by both sides as a clear danger to their way of life.

              1. Randy Godwin profile image95
                Randy Godwinposted 5 days agoin reply to this

                You didn't address the last point I made about sexual predators but it was simply sarcastic at any rate. I do want to ask you a question I've asked other Trump advocates but they don't seem to want to answer, instead they want to go the old Hillary, Obama did this and that instead of answering. I hope you won't disappoint me by doing the same. I do agree with you on the religious forums most of time, just so you know I'm not being completely contrary. tongue

                The question is-If Trump is proven to have colluded with the Russians to affect the presidential election, will you still stick by him?

                1. wilderness profile image98
                  wildernessposted 5 days agoin reply to this

                  Define collusion.  I think I've asked that before, and you declined to answer.  Does it mean talking to a Russian citizen?  Conspiring with Putin to re-program voting computers?  I've seen everything between those two - what do you mean? 

                  Not being difficult - it is an honest question and your reply will dictate my answer.

                  1. Valeant profile image96
                    Valeantposted 5 days agoin reply to this

                    Accepting assistance during an election from a foreign government in violation of campaign finance laws.

                  2. Randy Godwin profile image95
                    Randy Godwinposted 5 days agoin reply to this

                    I thought my questions was clear Dan, but I'll endeavor to simplify it even further. If it's proven Trump was involved in getting the assistance--in any manner for any quid pro quo-- of Russia to help him Sway the presidential election to his favor, will you still support him?

    2. ahorseback profile image81
      ahorsebackposted 9 days agoin reply to this

      Okay , I'll bite ,   So where is all of your proof of these daily Trump lies ?  You need to awaken yourself to the fact that our news media is probably the most biased media industry in a hundred year recorded history including one that many here have long forgotten ,or never actually knew,  The Russian , Pravda *,

      I have to say , I don't blame anyone for believing what they read today , there is an element of our population , especially younger voters , who assume that if something is in print , it certainly HAS to be true.   As to my supporting something with "sources", I will when the left does .

      You make a statement " ..........up to it's neck in Russia....... "   Because the very liberally slanted media say's it , doe that  make it biblical fact ?

    3. PrettyPanther profile image84
      PrettyPantherposted 8 days agoin reply to this

      When you have a president who lies daily, then you can't believe anything he says.  One of his current new fictions is that it isn't his voice on the Hollywood Access tape.  Really.  When the tape originally surfaced, he admitted he said those things and he apologized for it, now he expects us to believe it isn't his voice.  Trump thinks his base is stupid.  He thinks they will believe anything he says.  Billy Bush, who lost his job for merely laughing with Trump on that tape, is coming out to say it most definitely is Donald Trump talking.  This is just one example of the laughable, ridiculous falsehoods that emerge from his mouth on an almost daily basis.

      If wilderness hasn't seen this already, there is nothing we can do to enlighten him.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image95
        Randy Godwinposted 8 days agoin reply to this

        You may be right, PP. Dan is normally reasonable in such matters.

    4. Readmikenow profile image96
      Readmikenowposted 8 days agoin reply to this

      "I cannot understand how others simply brush the lies aside as if they meant nothing." I have to ask all Hillary supporters the EXACT same question.  SHE is the standard for Democrats.  If you wanted her to be president, your standard for president is a person who lies.  So, Donald Trump seems to meet YOUR standards.  Why upset? Do you know the denotation of the word "hypocrisy?"

      1. ahorseback profile image81
        ahorsebackposted 8 days agoin reply to this

        You probably just hit on the greatest hypocrisy known to a democratic voter  ,   If Trump is an all out liar  , a money grubbing  thief in , has more ties to Russia than  Lenin had  himself ,   has lied to more people than anyone else in the world  ,
        WHY DID THEY WANT HILARY to begin with . They actually  got two for the price of one ,  And still ....they are sore losers ?

      2. Randy Godwin profile image95
        Randy Godwinposted 8 days agoin reply to this

        HRC could not hold a candle to Trump and his daily lies. Gee, you guys cannot defend the p***Y grabber-in-chief without mentioning Obama or HRC eh?

        1. Readmikenow profile image96
          Readmikenowposted 7 days agoin reply to this

          NEVER forget Hillary is YOUR standard.  I doubt you even know all the major lies that woman has told during her career.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image95
            Randy Godwinposted 7 days agoin reply to this

            You made my point for me, Mike. Thanks! :)You guys cannot defend Trump without blaming HRC or Obama. Defend him on his merits if you can.

            1. wilderness profile image98
              wildernessposted 7 days agoin reply to this

              Sure thing.  He's the only president in decades that has made an honest effort to control our southern border.  He's the only one in decades that has made an honest effort to enforce immigration laws passed by congress.  He's the only one in decades that puts security over being PC, as in limiting travel from countries controlled by terrorists.

              That enough "defense" for you?

              1. Randy Godwin profile image95
                Randy Godwinposted 7 days agoin reply to this

                Not even close, Dan. Most of his deeds are oral rather than actual so far. Is that all you have?

    5. jo miller profile image92
      jo millerposted 8 days agoin reply to this

      Mike Flynn, Paul Manaford, Rick Gates, and George Papadopoulos, all associated with the campaign or administration of Trump, have been indicted on criminal charges.  Four indicted in the first year.  This is unprecedented in presidential history.  Obama had zero indictments of any officials in eight years. 

      I wonder, too, how anyone can keep supporting him, but I believe it is not their belief in Trump and his criminal cohorts that they are supporting but their own decisions.  It's sometimes hard to admit we've made a mistake.

      1. wilderness profile image98
        wildernessposted 8 days agoin reply to this

        He (Obama) was good, wasn't he?  As in really, really good.  I'm sure it helped to have the likes of Billy to run interference with the law and keep the guilty out of jail, but still, he has to have been good to go 8 years without even an indictment.  Powerful, smart politicians can do wonders when it comes to burying facts and prosecutions.

        1. Randy Godwin profile image95
          Randy Godwinposted 8 days agoin reply to this

          What should Obama have been charged with, Dan?

          1. wilderness profile image98
            wildernessposted 8 days agoin reply to this

            Beats me.  What crimes did he commit?

            1. Randy Godwin profile image95
              Randy Godwinposted 8 days agoin reply to this

              You did imply people were somehow kept out of jail. Didn't you?

              1. wilderness profile image98
                wildernessposted 8 days agoin reply to this

                Ah yes.  But that referred to Clinton, whom the FBI has reported to have committed over 100 crimes, not to Obama.  But I'm sure you recognized that.  Didn't you?

                1. Randy Godwin profile image95
                  Randy Godwinposted 7 days agoin reply to this

                  You mentioned Obama first. And a link to Clintons over 100 crimes would be helpful.

                  1. wilderness profile image98
                    wildernessposted 7 days agoin reply to this

                    Read the FBI reports on her server.  You will find them.

                    But you know that, too.  Why are you asking for a list?

      2. Randy Godwin profile image95
        Randy Godwinposted 8 days agoin reply to this

        I think it boils down to your last sentence, Jo. smile

    6. jackclee lm profile image81
      jackclee lmposted 5 days agoin reply to this

      Did you call out President Obama for all his lies in the 8 years of his administration?

  2. ahorseback profile image81
    ahorsebackposted 8 days ago

    ~~~~NewsFlash to everyone , ~~~~~ Flynn hasn't worked for the administration since what day twenty or something  ?

    Oh no .......but the media is 100% accurate.

  3. colorfulone profile image85
    colorfuloneposted 8 days ago

    We have proof that the Democrats are conspiring with the Russians. The Russians are poised to start building nuclear plants in Arab nations. A bad idea, but one the DNC is clearly in favor of. Pro-Russian whistleblower attacked Flynn. 

    Like everything they do is shapeshift, cover or misdirect. Democrats in Congress are trying to gin up criminal penalties, when Congress does not, and cannot, prosecute crimes.

    Uranium One!

  4. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 8 days ago

    This should help you decide if you have doubts...

    http://www.politifact.com/personalities … ants-fire/

  5. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 8 days ago

    By the way, apparently DT jr. is a chip off the ole buffoon with his testimony before the house intel committee. Like Sessions, he exerted privileges he wasn't entitled to and had a bad case of amnesia in the process. lol Jr. is up to his neck with his past lies and is trying hard to keep daddy out of it. Wait till Mueller gets hold of him. He'll squeal like a stuck hawg!  yikes

  6. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 7 days ago

    And trolling for what exactly, Dan? Are you accusing me of breaking forum rules?

  7. jo miller profile image92
    jo millerposted 7 days ago

    Saw this quote on my facebook feed today, "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep repeating it, and eventually they will believe it"  Adolph Hitler.  "You tell people a lie 3 times, they will believe anything."  Donald Trump in The Art of the Deal

    Great minds think alike.

  8. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 7 days ago

    Faux News is in full attack mode against Robert Mueller. Even though Mueller is a Republican, the infamous network is trying their best to keep Trump's loyal base--now at the low rate of 32%--happy by trying to destroy Mueller's credibility. There's no curing the stupidity of those who watch and believe in this misleading network.

    1. ahorseback profile image81
      ahorsebackposted 7 days agoin reply to this

      Except that reflected in your blind obedience to false media hype and two party establishment based swamp ideology .

  9. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 7 days ago

    See the above post to realize I'm telling the truth about rabid Faux watchers.

    1. ahorseback profile image81
      ahorsebackposted 7 days agoin reply to this

      If I bother you so much , then  You know I'm right .  Try some honesty for once or just stay on the porch with the whiners .

  10. Valeant profile image96
    Valeantposted 7 days ago

    Even as a liberal, I'd concede that it's nice to have the immigration laws enforced.

    1. ahorseback profile image81
      ahorsebackposted 7 days agoin reply to this

      Fact ; Even as Trump era  deportations are way up , the actual border arrests are down because illegals are staying home.     Today's news .

  11. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 6 days ago

    Faux News is in full attack mode against Robert Mueller. Just the opinion guys though. The real Fox journalists are staying out of it for the most part. Hannity is simply an ex carpenter with no journalistic qualifications the ignorant look to for what want they want to believe, not real news.

    I really don't know if there are very many real journalists on the network at all. Perhaps a rabid Fox watcher can enlighten me on this.

    1. ahorseback profile image81
      ahorsebackposted 6 days agoin reply to this

      Yea , How about you actually listen to Fox  once , It would however require that you give up your safe space for an hour .

  12. Randy Godwin profile image95
    Randy Godwinposted 6 days ago

    I post about what I saw and heard on Faux News and some person tells me to listen to Faux once.  lol No wonder there's a dearth of proper discussion with pro Trump apologists.  Unbelievable!

    1. ahorseback profile image81
      ahorsebackposted 6 days agoin reply to this

      Problem with the left is depth , you  have no political depth .   If media points aren't delivered to you on a conglomeration of puppet strings then you have no  idea of the path to interpretation of  these facts . Don't feel bad though , it's been that way since the sixties in America.

      1. Valeant profile image96
        Valeantposted 5 days agoin reply to this

        Problem with the right is that you believe the conspiracy theories spouted by your media sources.  Seth Rich, Birther movement, Liberals coming for all your guns, it's socialism even though you paid into it and it should work to assist you, showing some humanity in regards to refugees puts the country at risk even though the body count is way higher for middle-aged white guys with guns, etc.

        1. ahorseback profile image81
          ahorsebackposted 5 days agoin reply to this

          This Naive rant isn't even worth responding to .

          1. Valeant profile image96
            Valeantposted 5 days agoin reply to this

            And yet you did.  With a party that can stand behind a potential child molester, there's not much credibility left there.

            1. jackclee lm profile image81
              jackclee lmposted 5 days agoin reply to this

              Where is the proof? The law is innocent until proven guilty...
              Don’t fall for the political maniputions...

              1. Valeant profile image96
                Valeantposted 5 days agoin reply to this

                There's more than enough evidence to cast concern over Moore, and this is prior to him putting his beliefs in religion ahead of those of the Constitution.

            2. ahorseback profile image81
              ahorsebackposted 5 days agoin reply to this

              I'll  always 'politically' remember the look on Bill Clinton's  face at the Clinton /Trump debate looking at his rape and sexual accomplishments .

              A perfect  image of ALL your hypocrisy .

              1. Valeant profile image96
                Valeantposted 5 days agoin reply to this

                Funny thing is, the panel that Clinton could have assembled on Trump would have more than doubled that number.  But where's your outrage there?

  13. stephenteacher profile image76
    stephenteacherposted 5 days ago

    Let me quote a headline from the washington post. "Clinton campaign, DNC paid for research that led to Russia dossier." I wonder if clinton had been elected that the same people now would really be clamoring for any real investigation. After more than one year, and millions spent, we have solid proof of clinton and the russians.

    1. Valeant profile image96
      Valeantposted 5 days agoin reply to this

      Stephen, you do realize that the dossier was initially funded by someone in the GOP, running against Trump in the primary.

      Second, regardless of the fact that BOTH parties contributed funding to the dossier, you haven't disproven it's facts just by tying it to the Clinton campaign.  Your own feelings towards her honesty make you doubt its contents, but that's not real evidence that the claims made in the dossier are, in fact, false.

      Third, it's the job of the FBI to investigate those kinds of claims.  People like Comey and Mueller have obviously found merit to investigate further, to either prove or disprove the things held in there.  During this process, Comey was removed in what many consider to be Obstruction of Justice because Trump admitted that the investigation was a consideration in the firing on two separate occasions.  Once to Lester Holt on national television and the second time to the Russians in the Oval Office a few days later.

      So your attempt to undermine the dossier just by linking it to Clinton holds no water here.

  14. jackclee lm profile image81
    jackclee lmposted 5 days ago
    1. ahorseback profile image81
      ahorsebackposted 5 days agoin reply to this

      Jack To be fair , Obama didn't lie ..............much.

      He just didn't actually DO anything !

      1. jackclee lm profile image81
        jackclee lmposted 5 days agoin reply to this

        He did give us ACA or Obamacare and he said...
        “If you like your Dr. you can keep your Dr.”

  15. jackclee lm profile image81
    jackclee lmposted 5 days ago

    For some one so concerned about the Constitution...what about our Bill of Rights...?
    So quick to condemn a man without due process.
    It is about time someone in our government put God first.
    We would have so much less problems.
    The founders of our nation said “in God we Trust”

  16. Valeant profile image96
    Valeantposted 5 days ago

    This is an OJ scenario.  He did it, but not so much as to find him legally guilty. 

    Didn't the founders also provide for a separation of church and state?

    1. jackclee lm profile image81
      jackclee lmposted 5 days agoin reply to this

      Yes, but not the way the ACLU meant...check out my article on American Civics 101. It explains what the founders intended...

      1. Valeant profile image96
        Valeantposted 5 days agoin reply to this

        Putting God first is exactly why you have a separation.  What about those who don't believe in God the way you do?  Or those who don't believe in a God at all?  There are so many forms of religion that to run a government based on how people adhere to their form of religion would be discriminatory, to say the least.

        1. jackclee lm profile image81
          jackclee lmposted 5 days agoin reply to this

          No body is imposing their religion or belief on anyone else. That is the first Amerndment.
          The separation of church and state has been perverted by the ACLU and our Supreme Court. The founders was trying to prevent the government from over reaching and establish a state religion...
          Not the other way around. Down through our history, our officials have started their sessions with a prayer and in the distant past, many government affairs were conducted in local churches...
          I can’t go into much detail here but please go read my article on American Civics... you may just learn something that should have been taught in schools.

  17. Valeant profile image96
    Valeantposted 5 days ago

    Nobody would impose their religion or belief on anyone?  I can think of two issues right off the bat where legislation is tied directly to religious beliefs - marriage rights and abortion.  How legislators vote is a direct reflection on religious beliefs, so to say the issue wouldn't be compounded might not be accurate.

    1. jackclee lm profile image81
      jackclee lmposted 5 days agoin reply to this

      That is right. You picked two issues that were ruled by the Supreme Court, bypassing the American people. You wonder why we are so divided as a nation...
      The question of marriage was religious based but not exclusively. Down through our history and with multiple civilizations, the marriage was understood to be between a man and a women for the purpose of producing off spings...and a family unit. It was established long ago that it was the best form for a society to organize and insure transition from one generation to the next, legally and morally.
      With abortion, science has determined thst life begins at conception. How a fetus is viable outside the womb is debatable as to the time duration, 7, 8 or 9 months...
      The Supreme Court originally ruled to legalize abortion but wanted it to be rare and as the last resort...
      Today, we are debating on late term abortions and the right of the mother to choose in some cases at the point of delivery...That was never the intent of the original ruling.

      1. wilderness profile image98
        wildernessposted 4 days agoin reply to this

        "With abortion, science has determined thst life begins at conception."

        Is a sperm cell then not living?  An egg?  It would seem that life begins long before conception...unless you refer to human life, but there science has nothing at all to say.

        "The Supreme Court originally ruled to legalize abortion but wanted it to be rare and as the last resort..."

        The SCOTUS does not, or at least never should, rule according to what it wants.  Not a single judge on that court is supposed to rule according to his or her wants, but only according to the law.

        1. ahorseback profile image81
          ahorsebackposted 4 days agoin reply to this

          That last statement IS what has effected many many court rulings in the last decade or two  alone  , especially the federal circuit courts ,   look at  the travel ban alone .  These judges are now as personally corrupted as is any politician .

          Too isolated  a lifestyle ?

          1. wilderness profile image98
            wildernessposted 3 days agoin reply to this

            No, not too isolated.  Too powerful: absolute power corrupts absolutely, and their power is very nearly absolute.  Couple that with a decided lack of ethics and you get just what we have.

            But having said that I can certainly understand how a moral stance is going to affect a perfectly honest interpretation of the law.  And I'm sure that happens...perhaps all of 1% of the time!

            1. ahorseback profile image81
              ahorsebackposted 3 days agoin reply to this

              This certainly cannot be that we are at an all time high in ideological polarization .
              The SCOTUS too  ? Why not , right .

    2. wilderness profile image98
      wildernessposted 5 days agoin reply to this

      You can add prohibition (even today, hundreds of counties are "dry"), Sunday blue laws and preferential tax breaks for churches.  Our nation has seen laws requiring church attendance, and Puritans (knowing that we are born on the same day of the week we were conceived) punished the parents of children born on Sunday.

  18. ahorseback profile image81
    ahorsebackposted 4 days ago

    Can't anyone simply spell Obstruction ?

  19. Angel Guzman profile image91
    Angel Guzmanposted 3 days ago

    It's truly amazing how low the bar has been set sad

  20. ahorseback profile image81
    ahorsebackposted 3 days ago

    Wilderness , Recently talked to a friend who went to a nuke plant for a work related visit , drove right in  ,  right by the guards , went  to the main buildings , asked someone ; "Was I really supposed to have just done that ?"

    The official just looked down at the ground and said ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,",No "

    How can you fix that ?

    1. wilderness profile image98
      wildernessposted 3 days agoin reply to this

      Fire the guards and hire someone that will do their job.  Put a couple of MP's with assault rifles (real ones, not fake) at every entrance and roving guards around the perimeter.  Flood the place with electronic eyes of various sorts.  Electrify fencing with killing voltage.

      Of which only the first one will be acceptable.

      1. ahorseback profile image81
        ahorsebackposted 3 days agoin reply to this

        Interestingly , the place has multiple entrances ,  guard shacks , guards , indoor shooting range  ?  Just drove in on a back entrance quite by accident ,
        Interesting no?

        KInd of makes one  realize , we're scruwed.

 
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