Wow! The question is who lied the most? About what? Lying in Politics?
First, this is inspired from the discussion of the recent debate between Trump and Harris in the media, social media, and here in the Politics and Social Issues topic.
Next, for pondering and getting the cogs turning . . .
"The moment we no longer have a free press, anything can happen. What makes it possible for a totalitarian or any other dictatorship to rule is that people are not informed; how can you have an opinion if you are not informed? If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer. This is because lies, by their very nature, have to be changed, and a lying government has constantly to rewrite its own history. On the receiving end you get not only one lie—a lie which you could go on for the rest of your days—but you get a great number of lies, depending on how the political wind blows. And a people that no longer can believe anything cannot make up its mind. It is deprived not only of its capacity to act but also of its capacity to think and to judge. And with such a people you can then do what you please."
~ Hannah Arendt, . . . Hannah Arendt (1906–1975) was one of the most influential political philosophers of the twentieth century
Notation for the bold, "and a lying government has constantly to rewrite its own history" for 'government' insert party, politician, or media.
Keeping with the topic, originally I copied/pasted a supposed quote of her from a meme on Facebook. Fortunately, I fact checked it seeing it was fake. However in so doing discovered the quote above. Source next . . .
On Fake Hannah Arendt Quotations from the Hannah Arendt Center for Politics and Humanities (08/04/24)
https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/on-fake … 2024-08-04
Back on topic, more fuel for pondering . . .
"Of course, politicians throughout history have distorted reality in pursuit of success. There’s even a philosophical basis for it, offered by no less a figure than Plato, who asserted in The Republic that “rulers of the state… may be allowed to lie for the public good.” Plato was no fan of democracy – specifically because he saw it as more vulnerable to being undermined by untruth than a monarchy would be.
[hmmm . . . I wonder what our esteemed, educated founders thought of what Plato said.]
But the lies that have become commonplace in America are not intended to promote the “public good” – Plato’s standard; they’re aimed at protecting the political progress of candidates or their party. No public good is coming from the virus of deceit that has infected our body politic.
Lies rob voters of the raw material they need to make rational choices at the polls. As James Madison, the so-called Father of the Constitution put it, “A people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives.”
The lies that deny voters that knowledge are undermining the political culture of America. We are accomplices to the demise of democracy if we tolerate those who mislead us for their own ends."
Source . . .
The history of lying in American politics by WAMC Northeast Public Radio
https://www.wamc.org/commentary-opinion … n-politics
It is common knowledge to most that all politicians are liars.
Questions for inspiring discussion . . .
First question: Is lying in politics and governing the greatest threat to democracy?
Thoughts?
What use is it to point out a politician is liar as a character trait? What purpose does it serve?
Is the lie or the liar the most important issue?
I say the moon is made of green cheese because my dad said so. Who is the liar? Why?
As Plato pointed out lying is justified when done for the public good.
** True
** False
** Unsure
Expand on lying . . . just go for it . . . consider an aim toward politics and governing"But the lies that have become commonplace in America are not intended to promote the “public good” – Plato’s standard; they’re aimed at protecting the political progress of candidates or their party."
I would point out that if you ask those candidates or parties that you would be told that what is good for the party (candidate) is good for the country, and that it is self evident.
"Is lying in politics and governing the greatest threat to democracy?"
Yes. Few people believe anything our government tells them...unless they already want to.
"What use is it to point out a politician is liar as a character trait? What purpose does it serve?"
None - if the listener doesn't like it then YOU are the liar, not the politician. It thus serves no useful purpose.
"Is the lie or the liar the most important issue?"
The liar; one can determine if a lie is true or not, but after that the liar that produced that lie need never be checked again. Just ignored.
"I say the moon is made of green cheese because my dad said so. Who is the liar? Why?"
Presumably not you (and perhaps not your dad). An honest mistake, or honest ignorance, is not a lie. A lie is an intentional effort to convince someone that a falsehood is true (or vice versa). It can be done through words, through body language, through not providing the whole story; through many different methods. But it is always an intentional effort to convince someone a falsehood is truth.
That we have accepted lying from our politicians as standard practice was not very smart. Now we can never believe anything they tell us, most particularly what they think is right or wrong, what they think we need or should do. They will always tell us what they think will please us, not what they think is true.Thanks for contributing!! There is nothing I could contest with what you shared. I shook my head 'yes' reading through all of the reply.
I will share from the quote, "And a people that no longer can believe anything cannot make up its mind" is how I feel today in one sense regarding politics. The old adage of "actions speak louder than words" comes alive for me. Observing possibly has more importance than listening. One challenge is we at times do not see the lie as a lie until they are in office.
If you say all politicians lie. It could be true. But it is about the frequency of lies and the reason why.
Also there is a difference in lying and not telling everything you know.
If you are a good politician you don't lie, you simply do not answer the question or you only tell what you want to be in the open.
So to say all politicians lie is a wrong way off putting it as you put all politicians the same label.
It is clear that we talk about this theme because of Trump.
Trump lies blatantly and about the most stupid things. Like the people that attended his inauguration for example.
Why is Trump lying about something so unimportant and easily to fact check?
And if he is lying about such a simple thing, why would you believe him about other things.
Why is he lying about this? Or does he really believe that the crowd of his inauguration was bigger than that of Obama. Is he living in a world completely different then the reality. Like he thinks that the last collection was rigged. Without any evidence.
Has he created a world separate from reality but he thinks its true? And therefore he thinks that he is not lying. As according to his worldview it is true?
Sadly though truth is measurable and not subjective. That's why fact checking is necessary.Thanks for contributing Peter!
Maybe the adage, "All politicians lie" is an American one rather than an international one.
Yes, Trump made lying within the political arena more than an art form. He made it a way of life at least for him. I question 'his' reality especially in the perspective of a world view.
In my researching lying in politics before posting this OP I discovered one article by Axios stating that there was a 200% increase in fact-check organization worldwide since Trump took office in 2016. Only 20% of them were US based.
Fact-checking goes mainstream in Trump era by Axios (Oct 13, 2020)
https://www.axios.com/2020/10/13/fact-c … rump-media
In the Judaeo-Christian sense the first lie ever told was that of the serpent (Satan) telling Eve 'surely you will not die' if the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' is eaten. Interesting the compare/contrast of that lie leading to knowledge of good and evil while thinking of today's fact checking in the political arena seeking (a) truth. Truth has been philosophized for centuries, right?Fact checking becomes crucial in many ways. As we are in an age of deep fake news and AI that´s capable of mimicking voice and writing in style of...
The news source will become important again. And should be named.
But with so many personal flogs and influences screaming whatever they think it becomes difficult. Influences like Joe Rogan are not interested in the truth, they are only interested in what sells. Conspiracy theories sell and the damage they do in trust is of no importance to them.
I think it is not a coincidence that the US is big on conspiracy theories and QANon rubbish and also low in trusting government organizations.
These conspiracy theories are the reasons why people started to distrust the government organizations.
People who don't believe there was a moon landing or that the earth is flat. Saying that NASA is a complete fake organization...
Conspiracy theories have a dark side and feeds superstition.
The same with Trump saying people are eating cats and dogs in Springfield. A complete fabricated lie. And for what?
Why is he fabricating lies? And such obvious ones. People know that it's not true but it is one of the many seeds to make you distrust news. Many lies together, whatever it is, makes a swamp of distrust and discord.What made you decide he was a liar on this issue? Is it because you went to Springfield and talked to all of the residents there or because the city manager told the press it was a lie and thus you chose to believe it? That person also did not go talk to all of the residents either.
I do not know about missing cats and dogs. I can tell you though if you transported a lot of poor Brazilians there and they saw a bunch of fat ducks free for the taking at the reservoir they would do so.There is no evidence of people eating cats or dogs in Springfield.
Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.
Basically it is not just a blatant lie, it is an accusation and demonizing immigrants.
If you can not back up a claim as a politician it is wiser not to say anything.You mean like claiming that the 2025 Project belongs to your opponent? If harris is not able to back up her claim she should be called out on it. Her supporters on ABC did not do that.
You excuse her extraordinary claims but condemn his?At least 140 people who worked in the Trump administration had a hand in Project 2025.
But let's not forget what Trump said in a speech to the Heritage Foundation,
“They’re going to lay the groundwork and detail plans for exactly what our movement will do.".
His tired old act of pretending he has no idea is wearing thin.Yes, I know that when one of my employees goes and starts a new organization I am resposible for their thoughts and plans. Unfortunately not everyone agrees.
You're ignoring the speech he made and have you ever looked at how closely his agenda 47 or whatever it's called closely mirrors project 2025?
Also.."One of the authors of Project 2025 claimed former President Donald Trump has “blessed” the project and is “very supportive of what we do,” according to a secret recording released—the latest report tying Trump to Project 2025..'
Also, Heritage Foundation President Kevin Roberts told the Post in April he had briefed Trump on Project 2025, saying he “personally [has] talked to President Trump about Project 2025 … because my role in the project has been to make sure that all of the candidates who have responded to our offer for a briefing on Project 2025 get one from me.”
So who is lying? My money is on Trump.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurk … recording/
https://youtu.be/PY_chqyaRHo?si=i8hecKi1agAbY7n8
"At least 140 people who worked in the Trump administration had a hand in Project 2025. " I have not found a list that names these folks. Not sure in what capacity how long, or how many were fired by Trump. Trump had a history of firing many. This claim needs some context. In regard to his speech to the HF in 2022, I have pointed out several times, that he had not seen the document, it had not even been completed. Due to his words in that speech, it seems clear someone had spoken to him about the work in the project.
This statement is quoted and shows good context he had not read a word of the document thanks for posting it --- "They’re GOING TO lay the groundwork and detail plans for exactly what our movement will do."
Trump has over and over distanced himself from project 2025.
Has he stated he will embrace the project? Other than off-handedly mentioning it in an interview in 2022 before anyone had any realization of what was in the work? I have not found any of the offerings from 2025 in Trump's agenda.
"His tired old act of pretending he has no idea is wearing thin."
This is merely an assumption and lacks factual support. It might be helpful to research your candidate and their proposed agenda, which some may consider unrealistic and dependent on Congress to approve additional spending—something that's already a contentious issue. It appears your candidate supports Biden’s approach, which some view as excessive spending and contributing to inflation. Given the current economic pressures, it seems impractical to endorse further inflationary
measures. Yeah, we need more of Biden's all kind of crazy.Have you seen the undercover video?
https://youtu.be/PY_chqyaRHo?si=IHkm7Y4QCXeFPXqb
And a list of some Trump acolytes who had a hand in crafting and editing project 2025.
https://www.newsweek.com/project-2025-e … on-1922933
But even if folks want to attempt to distance Trump from project 2025, have you noticed the overlap between it and Trump's agenda 47?
Lying in politics is a serious threat to democracy, but the bigger danger is how these lies fuel propaganda, which distorts public perception and erodes trust in institutions. When leaders lie often, they create space for misinformation that manipulates people and deepens division. The real risk isn’t just the lies, but how they are used to shape opinions, weaken accountability, and undermine informed citizenship. When people lose trust in what’s true, they lose faith in democracy itself, which can ultimately cause the system to break down.
Pointing out that a politician is a liar highlights their lack of honesty, which can help voters decide if they trust them to lead. It shows that the politician might not be reliable or have the public's best interests at heart. However, just calling someone a liar without looking at the bigger picture may not be helpful. It's important to also consider their policies and actions. Focusing only on dishonesty might overlook other issues, so it's better to take everything into account when deciding who to support.
When both candidates in an election are known for lying, deciding whether the lie or the liar is more important becomes tricky. Instead of just focusing on their dishonesty, voters should look at their policies, values, and what they will do for the country. It's important to weigh the pros and cons of each candidate and choose the one who will best guide the nation’s growth and stability. While lying is a problem, the future of the country depends on considering how each candidate’s actions will affect us in the long run.
"As Plato pointed out lying is justified when done for the public good.
** True
** False
** Unsure"
False --
Plato thought lying might be okay if it helps the public, but in reality, it’s never good for a leader to lie. Even if lying seems to help in the short term, it harms trust between leaders and the people. Trust is really important because it helps people believe in their leaders and support their decisions. Without trust, it’s hard for leaders to govern effectively.Thank you, Sharlee for taking a peek and reading the OP. I echo many of your sentiments.
I am disappointed the thread is already being hijacked to a Trumnp bash... Happens too frequently here on HP. However, your header invited it ---
"Wow! The question is who lied the most? About what? Lying in Politics?"
I tried to stick to your questions, I mean we have beat a dead horse on comparing lies that were told at the debate, have we not? I like the current, I liked your initiative to try to draw out a deeper conversation on the political aspects of lying. Maybe I missed the mark --- were you going for "who lied the most? I could add some permalinks where I compared Trump/Harris debate lies. Just kidding, not about to put any more work into that. Last weeks BS.I think you got the jest of my 'feeling's about the lying in this election cycle from the post at another thread with metaphors. That post, well . . .
I see you have me in 'check with the the statement about my OP header. Nice move. I will only defend it with a pawn. I asked three questions they were bread crumbs leading to the prize, which was the Hannah Arendt quote;
"The moment we no longer have a free press, anything can happen. What makes it possible for a totalitarian or any other dictatorship to rule is that people are not informed; how can you have an opinion if you are not informed? If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer. This is because lies, by their very nature, have to be changed, and a lying government has constantly to rewrite its own history. On the receiving end you get not only one lie—a lie which you could go on for the rest of your days—but you get a great number of lies, depending on how the political wind blows. And a people that no longer can believe anything cannot make up its mind. It is deprived not only of its capacity to act but also of its capacity to think and to judge. And with such a people you can then do what you please."
Maybe I did a poor work of it. Oh well . . ."I see you’ve got me in ‘check’ with the statement about my OP header. Nice move."
Oh, I actually loved the header—it genuinely made me smile. It was a perfect setup for the direction your insightful thread was taking. It’s fascinating how the psychology behind it all works. I mean, isn’t it true that it only takes the smallest crack for Trump to make his way in?
Your threads are consistently provocative and packed with substance that really makes one stop and think. I wish we had more of this kind of thought-provoking content around here.
“How can you have an opinion if you’re not informed?” Nowadays, it’s clear that some people only need a snippet of information to consider themselves experts, running with those few words as if they’ve written an entire book on the subject.
“The moment we no longer have a free press, anything can happen. What allows a totalitarian or any dictatorship to thrive is the lack of informed citizens.”
So when people can grasp onto a few words without real facts or any need for facts, aren’t we already witnessing the consequences today? Our press often does what you did with your header—though they do it intentionally. So I ask you: Are we heading towards a totalitarian system? Do you see any hope in that direction, or would you embrace it? I’m sure you’ve noticed the signs pointing towards this shift. Perhaps the first sign is the presence of propaganda and the lack of curiosity to look beyond media reports. Many today accept what was once considered bad as good. I won’t label this condition, but it’s worth contemplating.
A good presentation of the whole picture. Politics and resultant Governments are all based on lies and incomprehension.
Anyway, I like that quote from Hannah Arendt. It portrays the complete version of Lies. I agree with both of you, Tim and Wilderness. It is not simply an American nation's problem. It is a persistent threat throughout the Universe.Don't even get me started. The only "fact checked," which is just another name for political OPINION aka BIAS was Trump. Kamala appears not to have lied because the moderators dared not fact check her. She lied so many times none of the viewers who know the true facts were surprised. Her lies are exposed all over Conservative news, which is found on platforms such as YouTube, Rumble, X, etc. If Liberals are comfortable with her lies and vote based on lies, they're truly doing the Country a disservice to vote in four to eight more years of the last four years on steroids. Everyone should at least agree that they were better off during the Trump Administration. Both candidates have had four years to prove themselves. That is the answer when it comes to voting in November.
Thanks for your contribution. I see truths in what your shared as well as what I experienced going to media and social media of 'Both' sides of the fence. Being an independent voter I don't give loyalty to either side of the fence. I seek info from both sides to give me a balanced perspective.
Interesting article, Kathleen. I enjoyed reading it while gaining knowledge that I had not known. Yes, lying in governing by leaders and politicians is one could say typical or nothing unusual.
Shar, in another conversation, I mentioned that I find the f-word offensive, but there are times and there are definitely exceptions when it applies....
(Tim, this does go hand-in-hand with the topic, but let me know if you would prefer that I remove it)
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/vE2c3k … tid=zWBbVwRegards to the f-word --- I put the F in go ahead and Feel Free to use it when it is the only dam word that can put the proper amount of punch to a statement. -- The clip vividly shows this woman pulling the wool over the eyes of the American people. I firmly believe the F-word has its time and place, adding punch when it's the most fitting choice to drive a strong message home. As a boomer, the word has been and will continue to be, part of my vocabulary. I use it when it feels right, and sometimes, well, it just aligns perfectly with my thoughts. Like here, I read a comment, and instead of thinking, "Oh my SMH," I’m thinking, "WT, you know."
A democracy is impossible without the boundaries provided by morals.
The People must willingly follow moral law, or a democratic government, by the people for the people, is impossible. Belief in God is the only check and the only antidote to those who have no regard for the happiness and peace of others.
For instance, the Ten commandments:
"Where did they come from?
God gave His people the Ten Commandments in a section of the Bible called the Old Testament. At that time, a group of people led by the prophet Moses had just escaped slavery. When Moses prayed to God for help, God gave him the Ten Commandments, which we can still follow today."
1 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
Exodus 20:3
"God wants what is best for you. If you put something else before Him in your life, it’s harder for him to bless you."
2 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.”
Exodus 20:4
"Anything you worship more than God is a “graven image.” Cars, clothes, sports, even our jobs are dangerous things to worship because they can go away. But God will never go away, and that’s why it’s best for us to only worship Him."
3 “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
Exodus 20:7
"This can mean using God’s name like a swear word, or it can mean saying you are a Christian but not living or acting like Jesus would want you to act."
4 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.”
Exodus 20:8–10
"Sunday, or the Sabbath day, is a day we can all go to church, worship God, and learn how to be better people and Christians. Keeping it holy means doing our best to remember Him throughout the day."
5 “Honour thy father and thy mother.”
Exodus 20:12
"It’s important to show our parents respect. This might look different for everyone, but we should always try to love and care for those who cared for us first."
6 “Thou shalt not kill.”
Exodus 20:13
A simple but important rule for anyone.
7 “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
Exodus 20:14
"Men and women make promises to each other when they are married. These promises are important, and breaking them causes deep sadness. Keeping those promises help men and women have happy marriages and happy lives."
8 “Thou shalt not steal.”
Exodus 20:15
It is important to God that His children are honest with each other. Taking anything that doesn’t belong to you is stealing, and is against His commandment.
9“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.”
Exodus 20:16
"This one is about honesty. If you lie to someone, you are “bearing false witness,” and may cause harm to yourself and to others."
10 “Thou shalt not covet.”
Exodus 20:17
"To covet means to be so jealous of something someone else has that you want it desperately. Coveting makes a person miserable and keeps them from putting God first. This commandment helps keep you from falling into this bad habit."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/com … mmandmentsThe eight Buddhist practices in the Noble Eightfold Path are:
1 Right View:
Our actions have consequences, death is not the end, and our actions and beliefs have consequences after death. The Buddha followed and taught a successful path out of this world and the other world (heaven and underworld/hell). Later on, right view came to explicitly include karma and rebirth, and the importance of the Four Noble Truths, when "insight" became central to Buddhist soteriology, especially in Theravada Buddhism.
2 Right Resolve: "Right thought", "Right aspiration", or "Right motivation".
In this factor, the practitioner resolves to strive toward non-violence and avoid violent and hateful conduct.
3 Right Speech:
No lying, no rude speech, no telling one person what another says about him to cause discord or harm their relationship, no idle chatter.
4 Right Conduct or Action:
no killing or injuring, no taking what is not given, no sexual misconduct, no material desires.
5 Right Livelihood:
No trading in weapons, living beings, meat, liquor, or poisons.
6 Right Effort:
Preventing the arising of unwholesome states, and generating wholesome states, the bojjhagā (Seven Factors of Awakening). This includes "guarding the sense-doors", restraint of the sense faculties.
7 Right Mindfulness
A quality that guards or watches over the mind; the stronger it becomes, the weaker unwholesome states of mind become, weakening their power "to take over and dominate thought, word and deed. In the vipassana movement, sati is interpreted as "bare attention": never be absent minded, being conscious of what one is doing; this encourages the awareness of the impermanence of body, feeling and mind, as well as to experience the five aggregates (skandhas), the five hindrances, the four True Realities and seven factors of awakening.
8 Right samadhi"
Practicing four stages of ("meditation"), which includes samadhi proper in the second stage, and reinforces the development of the bojjhagā, culminating into upekkhā (equanimity) and mindfulness. In the Theravada tradition and the vipassana movement, this is interpreted as ekaggata, concentration or one-pointedness of the mind, and supplemented with vipassana meditation, which aims at insight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
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