Without Question, Donald Trump has produced more Mostly False and Totally False statements as well as Outright Lies than any other major politician in American History. This is an undeniable Fact and fits with his psychosis.
What is amazing to me is that 30%, or so, of Americans either 1) Don't Care that their President is a serial liar or 2) actually believe his "alternate facts". This has happened before in the world's political history - Germans believed Hitler, Russians believed Stalin, Iraqis believed Hussein, for example. But never in America - until now.
Can someone help me out and explain why this is happening in America?
Just gonna stand here and watch me burn but that’s ok I love the way it hurts
Just gonna stand here and watch me cry
But that’s ok I like the way you lie.
That's a good question My Esoteric.
Why do people accept blunt lies.
I do not know, but let's have some thoughts.
Trump found out how to use the social media. He is not the first, but it's clear he found a niche. The lie.
Lying on social media is easy as it is harder to cheque if it is true. You say something absurd and it goes viral, the truth is walking far behind and as soon the truth has overtaking the lie it's old news.
The social media are to blame for spreading fake news too. And fake news is often tricky to spot.
And people do not always care about fake news, as long as it is the other party that's made a fool. This is wrong. deadly wrong. If you have a political argument you should stay away from lies.
People should rebelling against lies and fake news, but often it's simply seen as entertainment. It's not.
If a lie is told often enough people start to believe it.
By telling so many lies people are going to doubt even the hardest facts.
Fake news discredits hard worked for scientific knowledge. Science is seen as biased and political. and ridiculed with fake news.
Education itself is attacked with lies and even journalists who are working for years with good reputation and news papers are labelled fake news. As the terminology is used by the President of the United states against everything that is against him. This is dangerous and serious.
Never before had the US a president who attacked journalism and free speech on such a scale. Never before had the US a president simply telling blunt lies on such a scale. Presidents lied before, true, liberal and democrats, but never on such a scale and so in the open. It's dangerous and should not be accepted. Do you find it ok it when a dear friend of yours lies about the people visiting his birthday party? No, you would find him pathetic and started wondering, if he lies about such an unimportant thing, will he not lie too about more important things?
We should not accept lies and fake news, not from the liberals, not from the republicans and certainly not from the President of the United States.
All True. What makes Trump's use of social media, mainly Twitter, is that unlike you and me, what he tweets becomes United States policy. If he lies on Twitter, it is the same as the United States lying. And he lies a lot, so therefore so does the United States.
It is any reason the only nations who trust Trump are Russia and North Korea? (I doubt even they do.)
I'm a advocate of political correctness. It's something that many connect to hypocrisy. But I think that any famous person should be responsible of what they say in public. Throwing political correctness out of the window leads to open racism, sexism and blunt statements. It hardens the public debate.
The price of fame and being an influencer is that you have responsibilities. Trump as a big influencer doesn't care about responsibility. He generalizes, put labels on groups, humiliate and is blunt in public towards friendly head of states.
This attitude is encouraging other dictators and wannabe dictators. Being rude becomes the norm on social media. As social media is perfect for one liners and mimes. But one-liners and mimes stop discussions, they stop critical thinking. The social media encourages black and white thinking, as almost everybody is trapped in their own social media bubble.
The social media have a roll to play here too. They should change their algorithms so the sponsored news and "recommended" posts are much broader and not just tailor made for your political point of view. But sure as hell this is a money thing and won't happen easily. The price we pay for "free" Facebook, twitter, instagram and youtube is a Brexit and a President who is great at twitter but terrible in diplomatic relationships and attacking free press with fake news.
I am one of those that hold the opinion that much of what is promoted as Political Correctness is hypocrisy. I also think it can have some beneficial aspects, such as promoting consideration of tolerance. But I think it has been pushed to such extremes that the benefit of promoting that consideration is lost in the dust of what I perceive as the damaging aspects of it.
What I think has been "thrown out the window" is the realities of life. Life is hard. It is full of harsh things, challenges, and unsafe places. PC tries to fix that by ignoring it.
As for social media changing their algorithms - that sounds like you mean regulating speech to what you deem acceptable. Where do you derive the authority to think you can determine which voice should be heard? You want "sponsored" news to receive wider coverage? Isn't that the same as saying "money talks?" And what about "recommended" posts? Who does the recommending?
GA, I would argue you know murder when you see it. I think the same thing is true of Hate Speech which easily leads to murder. Also, Fake News is identifiable and is not free speech it is, Hate Speech, generally.
Finally, speech by the Russians, or similar attempts to attack America is not free speech either. We saw the impact of this last attack, Trump is president. And now we see the results of Trump inspired hate in the death of Jews and Muslims.
While you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, you can't inspire violence in the name of free speech.
Fake news needs to be identified and tagged as such
Hate speech needs to be monitored and dealt with.
I am a huge believer in free speech, but there are always limits when lives are at stake, IMO.
I agree with the entirety of your comment My Esoteric, but I don't think any of that agreement negates my point.
When extremes are set aside, (the Alex Joneses, the Ayrian Nation sites, and yes, Pres. Trump), peterstreep's point carries to a perception that any dissenting, (from the accepted mainstream), voices should be marginalized.
I don't think you would be okay with that. Consider; if someone had a correct, but contrary to popular accepted mainstream views, view was derlisted, would you accept that as a rational action?
Speaking or porn, what if petersteep's view, (as a generic view), was that a bikini-clad swimmer was porn. Would you accept that portrayal being banned?
It is easy to draw the line at murder and blatant hate speech, but are you qualified to draw the line for justifiable homicide or anti-mainstream hyperbole?
Considering that any decision will result in silencing voices, where on that slope would you draw the line? An algorithm promoting sponsored or recommended content?
Would you ban any Russian-originated content or just content that amounts to election interference? What is your parameter for "interference" - a dissenting voice, a factually correct voice, or just any Russian voice?
What would be your parameters for "fake news?" My recollection is that both the New York Times and CNN have had to retract stories that certainly appear to be fake news. My recollection is that a least a couple of major networks have fired prominent personalities for false news story violations. Are they purveyors of "fake news," or just victims of circumstances?
I agree fake news needs to be tagged, but I think it is primarily the job of the reader to tag it. I also think hate speech needs to be dealt with, (I think this one is much easier to identify), but I don't think an algorithm is the right choice for either job.
I think the key here is the word "any" in "peterstreep's point carries to a perception that any dissenting ..."
The very difficult question is how do you crack down on Fake News and dangerous hate speech, without cracking down on mean speech. I suspect there are people way above my pay grade who have insight on how to separate the two and then put rules in place that at least highlights this type of speech so that anybody reading it know what it is.
Hi GA, I think you read my post wrongly. so let me clarify what I meant.
By changing the Algorithms of social media I did not mean censorship, on the contrary. Today people live in their own social media bubble, because the social media is targeting you as they know what you like. So if you are a socialist you will be targeted for example with green energy suggestions. Same with right-wing, you will be targeted with hunting sport, just to say something.. When you look at youtube, the autoplay up-next is based upon an algorithm for your profile. This all looks good, but it narrows the point of view of people.
By changing the algorithm you can broaden the variety of the "recommendation" and up next videos. Make it more random.
So I will see also things that I normally wouldn't. Like the good old radio who surprises you.(if you do not count thematic stations)
Thanks to tailor made advertisement and google algorithms that target your personal taste most people live inside their own social media bubble.. I think if these bubbles were punctured it would help the public debate.
You are right peterstreep, I did misunderstand your comment. I suppose it was your support of PC that triggered me. ;-)
Even more humbling is that, although I don't see how that advertising business model could be changed--I think it is the lynchpin of online marketing, I fully agree with your point. Sorry.
oeps, sorry for the late reply. I thought I had already done so. Apologise accepted. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown in the PC thing, as it is a thread on it's own.
And although Google and Facebook and lots of other companies might know an awful lot about you, I prefer this system far above the one they have in China.
You may have hate speech and fake news, but you also have freedom of speech without governmental consequences (up to a point).
That said though, here in Spain last year a student was sentenced to prison because she tweeted jokes about the 1973 murder of a Spanish prime minister. As well as a rapper was sentenced 3 years to jail because he made a series of threats towards the king in his songs. These are sad examples of freedom of speech punished with severe punishment. Freedom of speech is something to fight for, and true, it can also contain hate speech. The question is, where do you draw the line.
https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/03/01/in … 95232.html
I see you've as of yet been incapable of elevating your thinking above that of the earthshine. Which is to say, you're on the level of a child. And not a smart child either.
Well, carry on. That's all you're going to do anyway. And all you're capable of.
President Trump has not told one single lie since his election. He is the most honest leader we have ever had. And the best.
Trump is a very very intelligent and very honest man. He is a better business man than Bill Gates and Warren B. His military intelligence is greater than highest Generals. He is a good weight and young. His hair is real and he is as tall like German Angel. He is well hung and loves his daughter. He has not one racist bone in his body. He will imprison Hillary and build a beautiful wall. Trump has created the greatest economy in the history of America. He will stop the Iraq war and stop drugs. He loves gays, the poor, the retarted and the uneducated. He will make America great again. He was voted dominant by white Christain males 2016. He was selected by the power to be President. He will build a super highway for billionaire to heaven and managed to visit the Pope.
It's hard to be humble, when your perfect in every way.
This about sums it up! Funny! But, it's only the Trump "haters" that are radical. I figured it out..unemployment is low because the Kool Aid business had to go through the roof for Trump to keep his followers. That is, we are now supposed to believe the unemployment numbers.
That is right!!! phony numbers.
What else does Trump got, other than his loud mouth and his double talking flaming ass-ho_e
True. It seems like he's adept at getting a lot of other people's money and blowing it. I thought we had enough people in Washington like that, but I think he is the title holder at the sort of thing.
He constantly talked about a wall during his campaign. A wall that never came, as it is not on his priority list. What was on his priority list was a beneficial tax system for the super rich. It was one of the first things he worked on.
The wall was for votes, the new tax law for himself and his buddies.
Yep, Washington and the wealthy are having a great time of greed.
But..but, he's not a politician so he must be one of us. Yup, also, he needs the illegal, and legal, immigrants just like his buddies do. He's not going to do anything real to stop illegal immigration, but he'll continue to talk the talk that's for sure.
Playing like he is one of us. Was the dirtiest, con artist and meanest trick of all.
Yes and because he has enough money he is independent and can't be bribed...
Ha ha ha...and if Hillary is elected you'll have endless investigations...unlike Trump where you have nothing but above the board winning. Then again, no one really cares about morality in a President, just results...but that Hillary, boy is she unethical!
Picking no evil is better than picking a no. 1 or number 2. Evil.
Trump makes a great number Two. I was thinking of him after my dudty and paper work.
Lock her up, lock her up. We don’t need a trial, let alone an investigation as we know she’s guilty. Everybody says so.
If he wasn't her Daddy, Trump said he would date his daughter. Even west Virginia hillbillies are going eeeeyuk.
That's so sick to know our president said that. People get the bells rung for saying that kind of thing around here.
Half my family are Mexicans. When he said Mexican bring rapest, drugs and murderers, yet some are good people
Everybody here wanted to kick him in the balls.
That he would go out with, if it weren't his daughter.
Wasn't Trump the one who said the unemployment numbers were Fake? I guess he was right.
There are cracks appearing. The reason unemployment dipped this last time is the participation rate went down instead of up. Also both the median and average weeks unemployed has been increasing for the last three months - neither are a good sign.
His 3.2% GDP increase was from smoke and mirrors - increased business inventories (bad), increase state spending on infrastructure since they can't wait any longer, and decreased imports from the Trump tariff war (decreasing imports tends to raise GDP artificially). The CORE GDP showed very slow growth.
Hmm..yes. I do fear the bottom will fall out as Trump is the master of smoke and mirrors. I bet he's just hoping it falls after 2020.
That's an interesting GDP observation. I don't like GDP as an economic indicator anyway, no matter the President. I need to jump back into macroeconomics a bit and what's going on with GDP alternatives.
And he knows more about pretty much everything than pretty much anyone.
Check out Trump’s repeated claims to know “more than anyone” about pretty much everything in the world ― including drone technology, campaign finance, the military, the courts, social media, trade, banking, money, the economy and “the system” ― in the clip below:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-t … 352833067e
I mean it's true...Trump does know more than everyone about everything, but let the haters hate.
And why do his unwavering supporters not care they elected a clown to run this country into the ground?
Because he often says out loud what they believe but are reluctant to say.
That is why you will hear them say he is an honest man. The rest of the lies are simply irrelevant to them, as long as he gives light to those hidden beliefs.
My lay psychology opinion of the day.
I asked that question about Bill Clinton... "I did not have sex with that woman."
I asked that question about Barak Obama... "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor."
Do you believe that the number and magnitude of lying is equivalent, or even close, among those three presidents?
Those were two examples. I think all politicians lie. Pres. Obamas lies about Fast and Furious were deadly and in a video he was caught telling the Russian representative he couldn't do much for them until after the election. Let's not forget the millions in cash he sent the Iranians. Hillary Clinton lied about Benghazi, and she dealth with the Russians to give them sooooo much of our uranium. Does that mean I don't think Pres. Trump has lied too? Of course not. But, he is doing something for the economy and increasing jobs for minorities and women in huge numbers. So it amounts to LIES but still accomplishing good for the American people or LIES and doing good for yourself. Trump already had money when he became president. The Clintons and Obamas made money by being president... But they all LIE!
US Presidents are the champions for lies. Vote them all they are all the same. I use to think clergyman were the world championship liars, those were just fairly tales.
You didn't answer the question.
Do you believe that the number and magnitude of lying is equivalent, or even close, among those three presidents?
Perhaps some research about your conspiracy theories might be best:
Iran: https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/obama … n-in-cash/
Uranium One: https://www.politifact.com/facebook-fac … anium-rus/
And under Trump, the average jobs gained per month is less than Obama's last term. Just because he says it, doesn't mean the data supports it. You should do some independent research before making such claims.
I did my research. My 25+ years in the field of journalism taught me not to accept the talking points of any political party. You have an agenda. I don't. So find another person to play your games with. Have a great day!
Actually Judith, most politicians do not lie. Many make a lot of somewhat false statements, a few make a lot of totally false statements (Ted Cruz comes to mind, or Gingrich). But very few lie like Trump does.
The inability to parse the various statements and evaluate them each independently rather than creating an equivalency among all lies is the very thing that's destroying our country. Either you have this ability, you don't have the ability, or you are simply too lazy to do the work.
That said, the basic idea that "all politicians lie" as the basis for not being offended or bothered by Trump goes to the heart of his support. In fact, people are tired of politicians and how they don't tell the truth by obfuscating on virtually every point. However, I'd say that's learned behavior. We don't elect politicians who tell the truth and telling the truth often gets politicians in trouble.
For instance, how should we address coal jobs? Trump lied and said those jobs would be coming back. The truth is that coal jobs are not coming back due to technology, among other things. But can Trump say that (or any politician)? Nope. Not if he wants them to vote for him.
So basically politics is just one giant game of telling people what they want to hear and the voters eating it up. Maybe we're the idiots and the liars and our President is really just a reflection of us.
"So basically politics is just one giant game of telling people what they want to hear and the voters eating it up. Maybe we're the idiots and the liars and our President is really just a reflection of us."
+1 When we vote because we hear what we want to hear, even when we know it isn't true, it does say something.
I will argue, and studies back this up, that there are people who do just as you suggest, turn their brains off and vote for their authority figure. Those studies I mentioned grew out of trying to understand why otherwise intelligent Germans chose to follow Hitler into Hell.
The result, known as Right-wing Authoritarianism, shows that the more a person exhibits certain characteristics, they are more likely to vote unintelligently. Most, but certainly not all, of those people end up being on the right side of the political spectrum.
(the extreme Left exhibit the same propensity, but there are so many fewer of those in America that they barely register in the statistics)
See this WELL SOURCED site - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-win … itarianism
Corruption, Lawlessness, INSANE Constant Crisis, Retardation and Bizarre Appearance aside, a primary difference between Bozo Trump and other politicians is that we've NEVER experienced a Serial, Pathological, Impulsive LIAR like Donny Boy who ivy league psychiatric experts say is mentally ill and a serious danger to the world:
Donald's Constant Habitual LYING about almost everything, is unprecedented and approximately 10,000 documented LIES and counting later, there seems to be no stopping him but the good news is that IMPEACHMENT and Indictment is right around the corner:
"So basically politics is just one giant game of telling people what they want to hear and the voters eating it up. Maybe we're the idiots and the liars and our President is really just a reflection of us."
Welcome to the party Hxprof. You are late, but at least you are here. ;-)
And Bill Clinton got impeached for that single lie. Why don't you want Trump impeached for making over 10,000 false statements, many of which were outright lies. Are you trying to be hypocritical on purpose Judith?
Actually, at the time Obama made that statement (I think I pointed this put before) it was neither false nor a lie - that is what the plan was. It just didn't turn out that way.
So, when you find somebody who makes false statements and lies as much as Trump does, get back to us. Until then, just tell the truth.
While there have been demands for the impeachment of most presidents, only two—Andrew Johnson and William J. Clinton—have actually been impeached, and both were acquitted by the United States Senate and not removed from office.
I think Bill Clinton was more honest, more productive and harmless than most Presidents. Hillary Clinton has been in Politics for too long, she can't help or for anyone, for corruption to get too deep. That is why we change Presidents like diapers. Once they fill up with too much BS we need to change them
People are probably drawn to him for similar reasons to those that draw so many poor judges of character to the more unsavoury politicians that are currently dominating the headlines here in the U.K., Here’s a
link to an insightful article that suggests what those reasons are -
I think my question would be why you think Trump's lies are better, or worse, than the lies all politicians tell.
Maybe I'm jaded, but my experience is they all lie. They all work for their best interests, screw the voters and talk out of both sides of their mouths.
Is the fact that Trump is worse at lying than a seasoned politician the problem?
The snarky answer is "because they are". The real answer is because they are so blatant (my father was born in Germany, but in his Art book, he said New Jersey; he was actually born in New York), but even other politicians occasionally lie blatantly as well. What sets Trump apart are two things: 1) the sheer volume of them, he has no peers, and 2) his faithful either don't care or worse, believe him.
Most, if not all, other politicians having been caught in such lies quickly lose their credibility and their power. Not Trump, the more he lies and make false statements, the more his supporters seem to revel in.
Many politicians, it is true, occasionally make false statements but they rarely outright lie. Many called Clinton a liar. Actually she "lied" very little. And what mostly false or totally false statements she made amounted to maybe 15 - 20% of her claims during her campaign. Trump, during the campaign, ran above 75%. Now that he is president, he is running above 80%.
I don't know of any politician who has lost their power, because of lies. Unless they actively choose to lose it. What power did Clinton lose? What power did Bush lose? AOC?
Decent people feel like dirt when it is exposed they are dishonest. They get embarrassed. Trump is no better or worse than the rest of them.
I can't play a bs game of pretend. Not when it comes to our political landscape.
No, the problem is that he lies to sow fear and hate and keep his base foaming at the mouth about Mexico, immigrants of any type except European, the southern border, the fictional deep state and, of course, anyone who opposed him, like John McCain.
He uses textbook.authoritarian techniques adopted by dictators all over the world to consolidate power through fear of the "other."
I have seen a Trumpeter right here on these forums recommend collapsing border tunnels without regard for whether people are in them. Murder.
If you cannot see the harm these lies are causing then you are a participant in the degradation of our fellow man that Trump so carelessly and heartlessly promotes for nothing more than his own selfish purposes.
Pants on Fire: "The Mexican government forces many bad people into our country."
Setting aside the question of whether Mexicans who have come to the United States are "bad" or not, there is no evidence of any Mexican policy that pushes people out of Mexico and into the United States. As has been the case for decades, a combination of economic and family factors accounts for most of the migration from Mexico to the United States.
Pants on Fire: The number of illegal immigrants in the United States is "30 million, it could be 34 million."
Researchers put the number of illegal immigrants at about 11 or 12 million, with the flow of illegal immigrants at a 40-year low. We also rated part of a Trump ad Pants on Fire because it purported to show Mexicans swarming over the border. But the video footage is actually the Moroccan border.
False: Mexico can afford to build a wall because the country's trade deficit with America is billions of dollars.
The trade deficit is about $50 billion. Estimates to build a wall vary widely, though the ones we found were smaller than the trade deficit. However, the trade deficit has nothing to do with whether the Mexican government could afford to write the United States a check to build the wall.
Pants on Fire: "I watched in Jersey City, N.J., where thousands and thousands of people were cheering" as the World Trade Center collapsed.
If thousands of people were celebrating the attacks on American soil, many people besides Trump would remember it. And in the 21st century, there would be video or visual evidence. Even as recently as this month, Trump has continued to say he’s right, pushing evidence that does not actually support his claim.
False: There is "no system to vet" refugees from the Middle East.
There are concerns about information gaps, but a system does exist and has existed since 1980. It involves multiple federal intelligence and security agencies, as well as the United Nations. Refugee vetting typically takes one to two years and includes numerous rounds of security checks.
Pants on Fire: The unemployment rate may be as high as "42 percent."
Getting a percentage that high requires believing that being a full-time student, a senior citizen, a stay-at-home parent, a job-training participant, or having a disability is no excuse for not holding down a full-time job. The highest alternative unemployment-rate measure we could come up with that had any credibility was 16.4 percent.
False: "We're the highest taxed nation in the world."
We fact-checked this claim three times, and it’s still wrong. Data from 2014, the most recent year available, shows that the United States wasn’t the most highly taxed by the typical metrics and actually places near the bottom or around the middle of the pack.
Pants on Fire: "Crime is rising."
If you look at overall violent and property crimes, he is flat wrong. Crime rates have been falling almost without fail for roughly a quarter-century. We also rated Pants on Fire an image Trump tweeted because it contained several incorrect crime statistics, including that black people kill 81 percent of white homicide victims. Actually, whites kill 82 percent of white homicide victims.
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete … ear-trump/
Every one of these lies is an intentional manipulation of his base, to inflame their fears and produce anger and division.
Trump's lies are harming this country at an unprecedented level. And I haven't even touched on his lack of credibility with world leaders. They just ignore him now. Heaven help us if there is a true world crisis that requires an intelligent, cool-headed response from us. I can only hope the smart people in the room will send the toddler to his crib while they take care of business.
This bull is hilarious. He lies to sow hate and fear? He alone?
Did I say "he alone" or are you intentionally lying about what I said?
You imply his behaviour is worse than our other politicians by your constant harping on him, and none other.
I'm stepping away. You guys appear to think everything would be so much better without Trump. I think he is but a reflection of the whole.
I don't imply, I state emphatically, that Trump is the worst liar, both in quantity (backed up by factual documentation) and deleterious effect, of any President. Ever.
The question is, why are Trump supporters fine with that?
I do agree LTL, Trump is a reflection of the whole - the whole of his supporters that is (although I suspect his supporters are not dangerously mentally ill like the health care professionals think Trump is)
It is not US GUYS, it is America that thinks this.
- Fully 65% of Americans think Trump is dishonest!!!
- Even an amazing 26% of Republicans think so.
- The ONLY demographic which thinks Trump is honest by more than 50% is Republicans at 66%. - WHY are Rs the only group that thinks so???
- Only 46% of white men think Trump is honest and that is his wheelhouse. Less than 1/2, amazing.
- Only 54% of Republicans think Trump is a good role model for Children; that is pathetic
- Even Republicans don't think Trump is more honest than other presidents (43%)!!!! - Why Do You LTL?
- Only Republicans (79%) believe Trump over Michael Cohen. His other wheelhouse supporters people with no college degree (50%) and white men in general (51%) give Trump the nod over Cohen - barely.
So, it is NOT just Us Guys.
You need to get real and open your ears, LTL, that is exactly what he does. Unlike almost any other politician who tells false statements or lies. Trump is a bully par excellence; one of the worst that.
Why are you fine with that?
And what difference does it make if it is "he alone" or not? The point is HE is doing it - big time.
I recently read the book "Fascism a warning" by Madeleine Albright.
It's a good read and indeed a warning. As democracy is not a self evident kind of thing.
Democracy is never perfect but it is far better then a system in which 1 person or 1 party rules all.
blunt social media lies and fake news are a direct attack on social and democratic values.
This is my last response. Lies are Lies and there are no levels, only consequences... Prior to running for president, any lies Trump told were irrelevant. In the short-term he has been president, any lies he's told have not interfered with his ability to increase jobs for all levels of society and for minorities and women. Career politicians, however, have told so many lies they cannot tell the truth now. Even my favorite president, JFK, was discovered to be a 1st class deceiver.
The consequences of the lies told by presidents Clinton and Obama and by Secretary Clinton have created serious consequences and in some instances lives have been lost due to their indifference. Believe what you will because as I said before, you have an agenda and that is all you are interested in.
I have no agenda for any President. I'm curious about BSers that go beyond liars. They don't even care that they lie. When they sound off beyond my BS detector I have a hungar to know, what they are hiding.
If you believe unemployment 3.6 is an honest number and the best in the last 50 years . For me, today I have never seen more broke or stress out people ever. If you never experiences a more balanced lifestyle along with most people 30, 40 or 50 years ago. It's because your either delusional or very rich and don't really care.
" Prior to running for president, any lies Trump told were irrelevant." - THAT IS an unbelievable statement coming from someone who claims to be an unbiased journalist. It puts your whole character into question.
If you make a serious statement and don't want to defend it, it can be considered hot air. Still I want to make some points although you probably won't read it.
Lies are lies and there are no levels is simply untrue. There is a difference between : "The holocaust never existed and is a big propaganda machine of the jews to get sympathy and money for there new state Israel." and "we don't have the money to spent on renewable energies.". If you don't see the difference then you are pretty nihilistic or lie to yourself.
There is also a difference between not telling the truth and telling a lie. Or not telling everything you know. Most politicians don't tell everything, that's because they have to negotiate and do politics. Just as the boss of a company does not share all the information he/she knows about the company with his employers. That's ok.
But to simply lie as Trump does, is not just harmfll to reality, it also makes him untrustworthy. His lies has cost him the strong bond between the USA and Europe. All US presidents had a strong bond with Europe, from Bush to Obama. Trump managed to break it with his lies and tweets. These are the consequences of his lies. You talk about the consequences of the lies of Clinton and Obama.What consequences? Clinton, Reagan, Bush, Obama they did not isolate the US in such an extend as Trump has done. America first became America alone.
Who would want be President of US? At the end of the day or end of my life. If I can hold my head with integrity, I know I've lived well.
It's tough to be a politician and hold your integrity at the same time.
Maybe possiblely some day.
If Ron Paul was President I would believe. The system was not design for people like him.
Ron Paul supports #TraitorTrump and doesn't believe he obstructed justice. That is a disqualifier in my mind.
For presidents in my lifetime, my picks would be Obama, Bush 1, Reagan, Eisenhower. Not sure about Truman.
Ron Paul very explicit about that. I wouldn't vote for Donald Trump," he said on CNN on Thursday.
"If you can't stand any of them and you happen to be a dedicated progressive, you ought to make your vote count and vote for the Green Party and if you happen to be a libertarian, vote for the Libertarian Party," he continued.
Ron Paul, like me, would not vote for neither of the only two parties.
I would vote for the Green Party. Although
What snowball chance in hell has the Green Party have.
The earth might turn into a ball of burning crap before they get in.
You got to really listen what Ron Paul has to say and a good man as a practice.
Glad to hear he changed his mind. But will he vote to convict him?
I thought of sueing Trump for cheaping me out of $10,000. His mafia lawyers and world record of lawsuits changed my mind. I seen too many people get screw twice in the Unjustice system. I would vote for Trump to be committed to a mental hospital.
I can understand the choice of Bush 1 and Obama. Reagan was a nutcase and naive who believed in astrology and used it to make decisions. that's a disqualifier in my mind ;-)
I think that was his wife, Nancy, peterstreep. He had just been married long enough to know to listen to her, ;-)
true. His wife was the driving force behind this..
Let's try to take an honest look at this peterstreep.
To set the stage:
I do not believe in astrology. Not because I can prove it is crap, (because I don't think that has proven - yet, but kinda like God-proof), but just because it sounds silly to me.
I am a huge Reagan fan because I believe he gave America what it needed at the time - faith in its precepts. Policies be damned, he made Americans glad to feel like Americans again. (yes, I am aware that application is relative to mostly Conservatives), and whatever your party that was a desperate need of the times, (in my opinion of course).
Lastly, and most realistically, I think that any man that has remained married for more than 15 years, (I have been married for 39 years), recognizes that quite frequently their spouse's view--relative to them and their behaviors--is very often, (contrary to public perception), very accurate and worth consideration.
That Nancy's views were influenced by her belief in Astrology is only superficially criticizable as nonsense. Can you prove Astrology is BS?
So her husband gave her the benefit of the doubt, (or acquiesced in the name of harmony). Where is the proof of idiocy?
I voted for Reagan twice - but regret my second vote. One of the main reasons I voted for him the first time GA is, as you put it "... he gave America what it needed at the time - faith in its precepts." I believed that then and I believe it now.
We need another Ronald Reagan today, for sure. Maybe he is in the form of Joe Biden - I have the same feeling about him as I did/do about Reagan.
Oh damn My Esoteric! You have put me in a tight spot. I would never equate Biden with Reagan, but ... your point is taken. And I can't disagree.
I don't think the particulars are anywhere near the same, but I must admit the essence of your thought is correct. And, that correctness, (as I see it), has nothing to do with Left or Right.
If my presidential choices are as limited in 2020 as they seem to be now, Biden will get my vote also.
I agree, GA, the particulars are very different and they are two very different men. But like with Reagan, I don't see anyone else out their right now but Biden who has the creds to bring America back together again (or at least closer together).
The one thing they have in common is both are/were great story tellers and able to define issues in a way that everybody can understand and relate to.
Alrightee then... should we order our Biden buttons now?
I'm about there also...I still like Jay Inslee though. I probably shouldn't write that though as they are both white males, and I may get labeled a racist/misogynist by some people. I think this is part of the "circular firing squad" mentality Obama mentioned. I did vote for him twice so I hope that means I can avoid a rascist label? LoL...
I just truly think some of this overly PC stuff from a faction of the left makes them seem less human and more fascist-like...the very thing they state they are the most against. I can certainly be taken off the Biden or Inslee bandwagon by a better candidate, no matter their race or religion.
May I ask what liberal has ever stated that merely voting for a white man makes you racist or sexist?
I.acknowledge that many (including me) have applauded the diversity of the Democratic party in general and the presidential candidates in particular, but that, in and of itself is not a claim that a vote for a white man is racist or misogynistic.
Maybe I spent too much time on Twitter and FB for awhile. I hope you are right, but I see the general anti white guy, and even white women, sentiment as part of what brought us Trump. I also applaud the diversity but there's a different strain of thought going around with liberals that suggests all white guys should apologize for all the privilege we have and just shut up.
Check out the hate that's referenced in this article:
https://pjmedia.com/trending/the-libera … allot-box/
"But, you don’t even have to take my word for it because here’s famous liberal pundit Andrew Sullivan admitting that it’s true,
“Scroll through left-Twitter and you find utter incredulity that demonizing white people could in any way be offensive," he said. "That’s the extent to which loathing of and contempt for ‘white people’ is now background noise on the left.”
I saw someone on a news program remind everyone that Twitter liberals are not representative of the majority of liberals. That is one reason why, even though you hear most often from the loud and strident left who make it sound like Dems are looking for a radical change, Biden is leading in the polls. Most Democrats are not extreme, nor will they vote for a woman or minority just because they are a woman or minority.
Just as an aside, I predict Biden will mess this up and not get the nomination. He always does. ;-)
Sort of like what we see in these forums ...
I agree that this isn't the majority of liberals, and it's clear that Trump wants Americans to think those Twitter liberals represent the majority of liberals. However, I do know some of them here in our community, and I hope their numbers aren't enough to push someone through a primary who has no chance against Trump. I think Biden has a chance and maybe a couple other of the hordes of Democratic candidates.
As an outsider I think Biden won't have a chance against Trump. Trump is a radical and only if you go extreme against him you will win. Biden is to decent and old fashioned politics, just like Hillary, and won't have an answer to Trumps aggressive campaign.
You are right that Trump is extreme, so by pitting Biden, one of the most moderate Democrats against him, we may be closer to the independents and centrist Republicans than where Trump will be. Pulling the country further apart by nominating the complete opposite isn't what is needed right now.
Yes, that argument can certainly be made, and, of course, it's all just opinion right now. But, I'm more with Valeant on this. I think Hillary is just not very likable as a person; comes off too robotic, etc., and that's a big reason why she lost. Biden can get dirty and even say some things to stir the pot, despite being more establishment leaning. At this point, I think we need to right the ship with a more establishment type candidate. I never thought I'd say that..but our country is in trouble.
- Trump won enough elector votes by less than 90,000 votes spread out over three blue states - PA, WI, and MI
- The unseen Russian information war targeted those three states and MN (which Clinton barely won) - We know better now
- Trump policies are hurting PA, WI, and MI
- Trump is only losing voters, not gaining them
- There is a good chance AZ will vote Blue
- There is a slight (when there was no) chance that TX might flip (Biden leads Trump in latest poll)
- No state that voted for Clinton in 2016 will vote for Trump in 2020
- NC is in play
- FL is in play
- Trump tariffs are costing him a lot of farm votes.
So, I don't think Trump can beat any D candidate, let alone Biden who is setting up shop in PA and is well liked in the MidWest.
I think that Biden is the best bet...I am not so sure anyone else would even come close. I could be wrong, but it is going to be the independents that determine this vote and Biden is the only one that sits well with a good portion of them. The economy (if it holds) will beat the others and will cause Trump to be re-elected.
Trump wants a war with Iran, promoted by the warmongering John Bolton.
He probably wants it to show his leadership as well. Often a war is good for votes.
Very true, but I'm not entirely clear how an Iran war plays out with those that aren't Trump or die'ers. If I remember right, he campaigned on not getting involved in big wars. But, if he can get moderates fired up about those damn Muslims, it may be just what he needs.
It's always sad to think of how politicians use wars to boost popularity. I loved the structure of the military when I was young, but I got out after one enlistment as I didn't want to be a tool. Although, I was all ready to go and fight right after 911, and likely would have stayed in if it that war would have stuck to Afghanistan, but Bush had other plans.
Let us hope that things settle back to normal proportions again and the US get's a proper president and not another television/social media star.
Yup yup..this is about as high as my sites are set for President in 2020. We must give the anti-intellectual attitude a back seat for this to happen.
We live in bizarre times, where a flat earth theory gets more followers and climate change is still denied even as we notice more and more extreme weather and it is proven without doubt. Vaccine deniers get measles...but still science is frowned upon.
I don't know that Trump does, based on recent news reports. But, Bolton has never met a regime change he didn't want to do.
These are all very good points, and I hope you're right about Trump not being able to beat any Dem candidate. The only real argument I can make on those points is that, from what I hear, around Indiana and Ohio, I don't see him losing many farm votes, at least not yet. However, Indiana isn't many electoral votes at any rate, and Trump's going to win this state regardless. And, of course, Ohio is extremely varied in its voter base, so anything can happen there.
A big worry of mine is it's all rigged just as Trump said it was. It seems like Trump was willing to do whatever dirty trick it took to beat Hillary....taking those tricks even further than what we know other Presidents have before. I just don't think we can afford to under estimate Trump in 2020. His base is stronger than I've ever seen in my lifetime and if he can convince people the economy is stronger than it's been in decades...IDK.
Fortunately, I don't count on Iowa, Ohio, and Indiana flipping in my count; only WI, MI, and PA for sure. As back up are NC, FL, and AZ.
I just heard a news report that even if Trump doesn't institute an auto tariff, the auto industry is starting to suffer. Right now, my chart on that is still inconclusive about direction; for sure it is not getting better.
I could debate you about his base getting stronger (more numerous), just louder.
On the plus side, many of his dirty tricks, and help from the Russians is not known and can be countered.
I do hope you're right, and your analysis makes sense. My wording was bad with the "stronger" base. My meaning is closer to louder, as you say, or even entrenched, but I don't really think he's expanding his core base.
If the auto industry is suffering come 2020, I think he could take Ohio, and if farmers finally tire of the tariffs, I think even Iowa is in play. I agree that WI, MI, and PA are very strong flipping possibilities, especially with Biden.
Let's hope the intelligence agencies are on top of, and the nation is able to hold him accountable in some way for any dirty tricks come 2020.
I know, Hillary lost on character, and was disliked by many. Biden will probably be supported by the Democratic elite, above Sanders. I imagine that Americans (and the rest of the world) yearn for a "normal" president".
I was born in '68 in Holland and so my first awareness of the US was through television in the 80's. Dynasty, Dallas and The Dukes of Hazard gave me an image of America. (a bit skewed off course ;-) )
Reagan was the first American president I heard of, it was mid-late 80's and a political turmoil in the world. You had the cold war and South-America dominating the foreign news.
The US was seen both positively and negatively over here.
Positively because the memory of WWII was still alive.
Everybody was grateful for the Marshall plan. Although it were the Canadians who liberated Holland, we were the US, with it's huge military force, thankful.
But you also had the anti-missile demonstrations, the protests against the dictatorships and the Mothers of de Plaza de Mayo in Argentina. I remember it as in 78, Holland had the best soccer team ever, but Johan Cruyff didn't want to play in Argentina as he feared for kidnapping. And many people demonstrated against the team going to the World Cup.
Reagan's reign to me is associated with the terrible things done in South-America. Later I read about the direct line of Pinochet with the Chicago school of economics under direction of Milton Friedman.
Friedman who advised Reagan. And what I think now is that Reagan in the end was easily manipulated both by his advisors and influenced by his wife. (as you say, if you're married for a long time, you make a bond and you influence each other, hopefully for the good. I'm happily married and we both stimulate each other)
Ronald Reagan is somebody who definitely gave America a face. And it was a tough time. I'm glad there was a strong US at the time to fight against the Russian influence.
But I do not agree with the economic system he started in which you got a strong schism between rich and poor. A system Friedman is to blame. And Reagan and Thatcher happily applied the rules (not as far as Friedman had wanted though, he would have liked a complete free market as he experimented with in Chili.)
I can not speak for how it was to live in the US at the time. That's your story, I always try to keep politics and the life of ordinary people separate.
This was interesting. It is not a politician thing.
From someone who knows him for a long time.
Many, many mental health professionals have determined that Trump is dangerously mentally ill with multiple diagnoses. The most prominent is Narcissistic Personality Disorder where one of the symptoms in a lack of relationship with the truth.
Some point to when his father (who was actually born in NY, rather than NJ or Germany as Trump has said) kicked him out of the house and into military school. They describe how this very traumatic event set the age that Trump reverts to when stressed; 13, I think.
I missed this post until myesoteric replied to it.
It is obvious to anyone willing to believe their own eyes and ears that Trump is a mentally ill.pathological liar.
Trump's ex-colleagues open up about his history of lies
Remember this egregious but expected LIE of thousands documented that he tried to peddle in late 2017, a desperate attempt to swing voters his way to save his SINKING Republican controlled House of Representatives? Well, it didn't work, Donald FAILED as he does so many times because Americans refused to get bamboozled by a 2 bit circus clown con-man: The Republican House of Representatives inevitably COLLAPSED because we no longer tolerate a 72 year old mad man and the BIG Blue Progressive Democratic WAVE of Righteousness PREVAILED with a MAJOR Victory and Majority in the 2018 Midterms: And right now, the Republican Controlled Senate is COLLAPSING before our very eyes and will absolutely FAIL in 2020 giving Dems the chance to acquire a Veto Proof Majority to FINALLY put an end to this oval office madness: And THANK God for that:
What an imbecile, treating his voters like sheep by promising a big tax cut for ordinary Americans which NEVER happened and NEVER will nor will a pay raise ever happen until he and his Communist Russian Republican Stooges are REMOVED from our premises: Everyone knew he was full of BS when he said this:
But why do his supporters not care that he lies so much?
Because he says out loud what they secretly believe.
Isn't it a very sad commentary about America that 30% of supposedly good, patriotic Americans have such a warped view of America which is supposed to be about - Justice, Tranquility, Defense, general Welfare, and Liberty.
They believe in none of this other than Defense.
I have a couple of Trump supporter friends who were cheering Trump's stupid threat to close the southern border. They give zero thought to what the consequences of that action would be and don't care to hear. They were mindlessly gleeful about no more "Mexicans" (they're too ignorant to realize people seek asylum from other countries, too) coming into "their" country.
This type of Trumpeter is too ignorant to know how ignorant they are.
That would be true, for sure. Certainly to ignorant to realize that the population growth is tied to economic growth and that America's birth rate no longer replaces those who die or leave and that the ONLY think keeping the economy growing are immigrants, both legal and illegal.
That a offensive Military, not defensive.
Because it's a "Cult of Bozo", a small minority cult but still a cult and guess what? Even his last remaining cult followers are BENEFITING from Nancy "Powerhouse" Pelosi and the NEW Righteous Progressive Democratic Majority in the House of Representatives and we the Democrats will SAVE even Bozo Trump's cult members from his constant evil attacks on their Health-Care and Retirement Benefits despite their unwillingness to deal with the TRUTH of what he's actually trying to do to them:
Imagine that, the Powerful Progressive Democrats including Nancy Pelosi and AOC are SAVING even those Trump followers who are brainwashed by alt-right wing nationalist outlets like Fox Crap Channel:
Does that make Trump's lying OK??
In any case, NO politician lies like Trump does; none come even close. Why do you keep believing his serial, voluminous lies and false statements?
GA, I didn't get that impression from Esoteric's post. He was merely asking why people still believe Trump's numerous false and misleading statements or simply don't care. It's a valid question and one that has alarmed many Americans, and others. PC doesn't come into this at all; it's a question of character and awareness.
Hi Genna East, your response confuses me. It was probably just a typo, but it was peterstreep I was responding to.
Otherwise, his statement was; "I'm a advocate of political correctness. It's something that many connect to hypocrisy. But I think that any famous person should be responsible of what they say in public. Throwing political correctness out of the window leads to open racism, sexism and blunt statements."
I don't agree with his closing sentence, and I don't agree with PC as is been promoted.
I don't see where he was asking why people "still believe Trump's numerous false and misleading statements or simply don't care." With respect, I think that is your interjection of your bias - relative to the conversation and not peterstreep's comment.
Here's a good one, and probably just another reason WHY ivy league mental health experts are ALARMED and feel they have an obligation to warn the public about his apparent mental state: I guess after so many years or decades you learn to maintain a blank "Straight Face" while attempting to "GAS-Light" whomever is STILL gullible enough to be Bamboozled by him and fortunately for the world, that number of loyal followers is rapidly shrinking: It's in those unattractive, bloodshot beattie eyes
He actually said this with a "Straight Wrinkled Up Face" just hours ago: Pathetic:
Lol, I saw that, followed by a compilation of the many times he enthusiastically praised Wikileaks.
What is that, bold-face lie number 10,050? It is that kind of statement that give credence to his dangerous mental illness diagnosis
I think what makes him popular is the fact that he speaks what he thinks.He is hardly diplomatic when it comes to answering questions.His vision is clear and he wants to keep America first. He may not be the best example of an ideal President but modern generation likes leaders who are straight forward. Recent trade war with China or withdrawal from Iran deal ,Climate deal are few months examples
But here is the problem I see with that logic (although I hear it often from Trump supporters). When he "speaks what he thinks" he almost always produces a false statement or outright lie. How does a supporter know what he really thinks? Because Trump says what Trump thinks his supporters want to hear at that moment in time (transactional) and given the fact that most of what he says is False, how can his supporters trust him? How do they know he really puts America First given his the long-term impact of his actions [b[Hurt[/b] America's interests? But when you peel back the onion, almost every action he takes puts more money in his and his family's pockets.
IMO, he puts only Trump first. For example, his tariff war. It is decimating his supporter base in the farm belt. While he is losing support, and votes, there, most are willing to suffer for what they see as Trump putting America first. What they don't realize is that the damage a trade war causes is deep, long-term, and, to some degree, permanent. America has never won a trade war it started and always farmers paid the heaviest price.
"What they don't realize is that the damage a trade war causes is deep, long-term, and, to some degree, permanent."
And some recognize that unbalanced, unfair trade causes the decimation of industries far beyond the farmer, causes enormous trade deficits and the loss of millions of jobs. If we can stem or slow those things it is worth paying the price. The country will not endure trying to buy everything it needs from other countries without selling anything in return.
A Trade War, Wilderness, is cutting off your nose to spite your face. It is not, and never has been the answer to "And some recognize that unbalanced, unfair trade causes the decimation of industries far beyond the farmer, causes enormous trade deficits and the loss of millions of jobs. "
While everybody recognizes that China has been unfair, nobody who understands economics believes trade deficits are a bad thing. They are just a thing.and except for rare circumstances, they are neither good nor bad..
If everything is made in the USA, then nobody would buy from America because it is way too expensive and therefore KILL demand for American products. And if forced to buy American made products only (which is what you are suggesting) then demand would also suffer because few Americans could afford them. This is a recipe for disastrous wage and price inflation
That is why free trade and letting the markets work by themselves is always the best practice. Trump's plan will end up bankrupting America has it has done so often in the past.
"The country will not endure trying to buy everything it needs from other countries without selling anything in return." is false on its face since we SELL almost as much as we BUY. America's trade imbalance amounts to only about 3% of GDP. In other words, barely noticeable.
Trump is using a sledge hammer to defeat a problem that doesn't exist. There are many less self-defeating way to address China's unfair trade practices that don't hurt America like Trump is doing.
And yet...without jobs an awful lot of people can't afford even Chinese products. Some can, but isn't that simply increasing the wealth imbalance in our own country? Somehow this simple fact - that purchasing overseas means jobs are not available in the US - is set aside and ignored, but jobs are a vital part of a thriving economy, and of the standard of living enjoyed by those that live here.
Yes, the imbalance is around 3% of GDP, but that represents about $60B. At $50,000 per job, that's over a million people out of work, and that the rest of society must support. Double the impact because of the support to 2 million people, and THAT is hardly "barely noticeable". It is, after all, about 1/3 of the people out of work.
If there are "many less self-defeating way to address China's unfair trade practices", what are they and why do you think we aren't using them?
"And yet...without jobs an awful lot of people can't afford even Chinese products." - And where do you think jobs are an issue?? There aren't enough workers to fill the jobs available and with Trump's immigration policy, there are fewer and fewer to go to work, he is deporting them. Except for the 5% or so that represent job churn, everybody in America who wants a job, can have a job if they have the right education and are willing to move.
"that purchasing overseas means jobs are not available in the US - is set aside and ignored," - OF COURSE it is set aside and ignored because it is 1) not true and 2) not relevant in a full employment economy.
What you and yours don't seem to get that today, in America, save for education and location, any American can have a job if they want one. So what is your problem? Don't you believe that is true?
What exactly has jobs got to do with trade deficits?
"Yes, the imbalance is around 3% of GDP, but that represents about $60B. At $50,000 per job, that's over a million people out of work, and that the rest of society must support. Double the impact because of the support to 2 million people," - YOUR MATH doesn't make any sense, you are trying to multiply apples and oranges.
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