Cases like this is why we need the death penalty.
What the hell is going on these days?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091026/ap_ … BsZWFkc2c-Good grief! What a despicable thing to do...to treat a human being that way.
I wouldn't mind having her treated in jail by the inmates the same way she treated that poor woman. It's despicable and 41 years in jail isn't long enough.
Wow, it's just crazy to read what some people are capable of.
Makes you wonder what happened in her life to make her so cruel and prejudice towards people with limitations.
Yes I wonder what she sees in herself that she projected on to her victim?
No it doesn't. All you need to know about her is her actions. She tortured someone with the mind of a child. I've worked with that population before, many of whom had been abused. I'm one of the last people to be calling to use the death penalty, I'm not too confident of our ability to prove many capital crimes, but this lady's actions are beyond the pale. Sometimes the crime is so horrific, so inhuman that we have no other choice but to end that person. This is one of those cases.
I don't believe in the death penalty. Murder is wrong, whether by an individual or by a government it doesn't matter.
And throwing her in jail forever is not the answer either. The only way this woman can learn some compassion for others is if we show some compassion to her.
Justice should not be about vengeance, it should be about rehabilitation.I agree with you. Most people incarcerated are mentally ill and need help. Most abusers were abused, more abuse does nothing to help them recover.
A freak like this individual cannot be rehabilitated. She's too far gone. At this point it isn't about teaching her compassion. The reason criminals can victimize is that they lack empathy, and if some hasn't developed that in the first few years of life when their brain was developing it isn't going to happen. I'm sorry if this piece-of-filth has been so damaged she's now pure evil; but she lost any right to compassion from others when she did what she did to an absolutely innocent victim.
I'm not particularly a fan of the death penalty; and it won't bring back the victim (or spare her from the torture she suffered); but her family may need to see some justice, and at this point I think giving them some sense of justice is the least the justice system can do. It won't take away what they must live with, but it may at least prevent them from a lifetime of even more hard-to-live-with "issues" that come when there's no justice.
I know this isn't going to happen (and I suppose I don't wouldn't really want a government that allowed it to); but there's a part of me that says, "Give the victim's family a baseball bat, a cigarette lighter, a couple of rocks, a steak knife, and monkey wrench - and have at her."compassion?
for a sick twisted nasty freakshow like that?!
I hope that woman experiences the same treatment in prison. if I ran into her i would probably bitch-slap her if I could get away with it.
errr.........
<-- mad faceI think it would be very hard not to agree with you.
And I think the main reason the state does not share your point of view is linked with justice budget.Not all people can be rehabilitated. She should be put away forever. It is not vengeance, it is protecting innocent people.
Wow! This is sad I am not sure what the correct punishment, or lesson is my heart just Hurts!
I generally agree with rehabilitation as opposed to retribution, but I also believe that the time she does should be proportionate to the crime, and that given the scope of the crime, the length of time she devoted to abusing this woman and exploiting her for the social security check, the example she set for her son who also took part in this crime, we should consider the very real possibility that she may never be rehabilitated and therefore should spend the rest of her life in prison.
I just feel certain people are not worth rehabilitating...than again capital punishment is so expensive. Either way it is--just kill her quickly and be done with it.
You Guys in the United Stastes of America need all your killers to be EXORCIZED! Same here where i live ,they are all possed by such an evil force.EXORCIZED,EXCORIZED,EXCORIZED.And then put into rehab for life.
Scarlet.
But see, if we kill her because we deem her "not worth rehabilitating," that may make us no better than she is. She believed her victim was less worthy, too.
By jailing her we are saying she is less worthy to live in a normal society...actually...she made herself less worthy to live.
Sure, rehab is fine, but I just don't think all human lives that are so distorted are worth wasting time und money on...but, maybe its not worth funding her on death row either. Let her fester in a prison for life or toss her in a male prison are ok I guess.
No, by jailing her, we acknowledge that she has proven herself a threat to innocent members of the general population. Keeping her in jail isn't a declaration of her worth, but a measure to protect other people from actions she's proven herself willing to take.
And she thought her victims' lives were less worthy. In order for there to be any chance of rehabilitation, we have to prove we're better than that.
Perhaps by her actions she's forfeited her right to live. But by that logic, if you judge another person as worth less, you forfeit your right to be treated as an equal. That's where mercy comes in.Let's just say we don't have the same values. ;D Values are personal perspective and intangible concepts. Many people would disagree with you (and possibly me) and be fine with whoever kills her and feel the person who killed her are perhaps of no less value...or more valuable for her death because of what she did. Some would see the person who put her to death just as bad as her.
Values are relative and individual so let's just I don't see it the way you do.
Exactly. Yes, in some cases it's punishment, but in this case I think jail would be a way to keep her from the rest of the population.
Maybe when she's seventy and too old to wield a toilet plunger handle or aim any kind of gun.
Certainly!
I'd disagree, though. The difference is that her victim did nothing to deserve being "deemed not worthy of living". This piece of filth did plenty to "earn" such "deeming". As I said before, I'm not particularly a fan of the death penalty, but there's a big difference between "deeming" innocent people "not worthy" and the goverment's saying, "If you harm and torture fellow citizens we're going to deem you unfit to live." Attempting to rehabilitate is what society does for someone like teenage car thieves. There's no rehabilitating of someone this demented and evil. Besides, she lost her right to compassion when she demonstrated how absolutely without conscience and humanity she is.
Death sentence is a must. Those who have committed heinous crimes like murder, robbery, treason, etc., whose existence threatens public safety should not be shown any mercy. They deserve no mercy. Sometimes mercy proves to be a licence for continuing the crimes.
One group has killed atleast 4000 people by destroying the twin towers (Sept.11). That group is headed by an elusive person. Does he deserve any sympathy? Is his existence justified? Will he stop his crimes if pardoned?She's also obviously a threat to other prisoners; so she ought to be thrown in some tiny pit somewhere and have her dinner pushed under the door until she completely loses touch with reality. That'll put her out the mental misery she's clearly in now.
I don't support the death penalty, but I don't believe everyone can be rehabilitated, either. Sentence her to hard labor for the rest of her life.
I'm with you on this. Why kill her when she can probably turn out a few hundred thousand license plates for Missouri? Let her ruminate on the disgusting things she did to an innocent person for the rest of her miserable life.
You obviously don't have much experience with diseased minds, do you? This lady won't spend her time ruminating in jail about her deeds, she'll spend her time justifying what she did and shifting the blame to the victim.
Why should we pay to keep some sub-human trash like that alive? Execute her and be done with it.Moral considerations aside, it costs much more to execute than to incarcerate for life.
Exactly. And LDT is forgetting all those license plates she could be making.
Whether she actually comes to terms with the enormity of her crimes or not is besides the point.Changing your story now? Your original argument for letting her live was so she could suffer by being forced to contemplate the enormity of her crime. Now it doesn't matter? Moral relativism is a messed up way at looking at things.
I'm not being morally relativistic. I was simply saying if the concern of some people was for rehabilitation, then she would have plenty of time to work through her "issues" while stamping out thousands upon thousands of license plates in jail.
I don't support the death penalty, but I don't want people like her enjoying the freedom she forfeited. And I'd personally prefer her to be economically productive. Maybe the proceeds of her work can be used to take care of the victim's child.Neither do I necessarily support the death penalty. I'm a big advocate of the Innocence Project. http://www.innocenceproject.org/
But the details of a case like this are so heinous that I'm willing to forgo my distaste of state sanctioned capital punishment because if anyone ever deserved it, this lady does. Her actions make her a sociopath. There is no rehabilitation or remorse possible in her. And yes, it sticks in my craw that my tax dollars are going to keep someone like that alive. In this case, I'd be willing to see my tax dollars spent to end her life.
To give you an example of how callous sociopaths are, look at Richard Ramirez: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez
Were you aware that he has a pen pal page? http://www.lostvault.com/penpals/detail … ;iAd=13697
He's also been implicated in the death of a 9 year old child:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 … cases.html
He's been given 25 more years of life than that little girl was. And you'd be content to let him live, get letters from his groupies and screw his victims.First of all, don't put words in my mouth. You've done that twice now.
Let me repeat: I don't care if she continues to be a wicked human being until the day they die. She might very well be. If she continues to get love letters, either real or ones imagined by you, then who cares? Is it better if she's killed and deemed a martyr by these same people? It makes absolutely no difference. She'll have to deal with that in the afterlife, or never, depending on your belief system.
The fact is that killing is killing, and I don't support it when there is an alternative. But I am fine with her being used as an employee of the state, in a chain gang or whatever, paying for the victim's child's welfare (something she won't be able to do if she's dead). I am the last person who thinks prisoners like her are entitled to a comfortable life behind bars.Well if that's putting words in your mouth, I apologize. Let me say, rather, that the logical conclusion to your way of thinking advocates letting scum of the earth continue to live, even if it is in prison. You didn't say that, but that's where you line of thinking ends up.
At any rate, we're never going to agree on this. I do think there are some people that just need killing. You don't. Since neither you nor I are sociopaths, the fact that we differ makes no real difference.I appreciate the apology. You didn't need to justify it, since your justification doesn't make any sense.
People who are against the death penalty can still think people like this woman are the scum of the earth. I certainly do. But to us it's odd that the only solution is to kill them off - that makes *you* feel better, it doesn't solve the problems that this crime entails (namely, an orphan).
I just want them off the streets. Some form of economic productivity would be nice, since the victim's child will almost certainly be a ward of the state and why not make her mother's killer responsible for her costs? If you kill the murderer, you are looking at a net-negative contribution, even if you were to sell her for fertilizer. (Sorry to sound crude, but you get my point, right?)I agree. What about conducting a scientific study on sociopaths? I'm not suggesting that they should be subjected to Mengelian-style experimentation, but it would be interesting to discover if there was a "sociopathy gene" or whether the condition is completely down to the environment they grow up in.
Mind you, if they *did* discover such a gene, it would open a real can of worms...I know you think it doesn't make sense, because you are totally opposed to killing in any form. That's your prerogative.
Killing her wouldn't make me feel better, it would mean that we wouldn't waste scarce resources on a piece of trash like that. Granted we have the slack in the system to waste resources on her if we so choose, but I think that someone who acts in such a manner forfeits their right to be a part of the human family. Being human means nothing if we allow people like that woman to live. What does it say about us that we allow something like that?About a crime as heinous as that one, you bet I am. I suppose that's because I'm a Son of Martha.
http://www.mindspring.com/~blackhart/Th … artha.html
No, I'm not. I'm not in favor of it when there's an alternative. And there is one.
That sounds to me an awful lot like a justification for killing her to make you feel better.
It means that we do not believe we have the right to take a life when there's an alternative. I've made very clear why I think the alternative is vastly superior than death. You and I are likely not going to see eye-to-eye on this and that's fine.If that's how it sounds to you, fine. I'd just rather see those resources used on someone who didn't commit subhuman acts on another human being.
What resources? Please don't tell me you believe economic productivity is a zero-sum game.
Of course I don't think economic productivity is a zero sum game. I'm not Michelle Obama. What resources? Tax money for one. The fact that we need walls and guards for these people. Everything that goes into incarcerating these people from land, labor and capital could be better spent on something more worthwhile.
These people, you mean people like me. these people who made a mistake and will spend the rest of their lives regretting and paying for it. You have an interesting tone that grows more borderline arrogant and narcissistic with every post. I only pray that you somehow manage to never cross the law or God forbid make a mistake my friend. You will soon find cold judgmental people like yourself soon coming to string you up and punish you all over again.
With all due respect to your obvious compassion, did you read about what this woman did? This wasn't a slip-up or a mistake by any stretch of the imagination.
Yeah I read, but I'm not the one grouping all criminals into a class of degenerates and second class citizens unworthy of respect or compassion. ledenfensetech has made his opinion of anyone not fitting intro his limited moral view very clear on several threads now. He's a cold cruel man, who feels entitled to judge a huge group of people based on circumstances beyond his own experience or understanding while hiding it behind an air of education and intelligence.
Once again none of you knew what was going through her mind or why she did it. Working with criminals does not make you an expert or authority, just an observer. Until you walk in their shoes your evaluation is speculation at best and hypocrisy at the least. 1 in 4 Americans have committed a major felony only one in eight are caught.Cold and cruel? You must have missed this:
Oh and this too:
You don't need to know what was going on in her mind. What could she possibly have been thinking that could in any way excuse her actions?Yeah you have great skill at making apologies after people call you on your harsh words then you go right on and do it again. I'm not trying to excuse anyone's actions. I am disturbed by your repeated enthusiasm to execute this woman over what amounts to monetary concerns. I am appalled that her life has so little value in your eyes. I wonder what you have done in your life that makes you so right and just to be able pass judgment on this woman. If we are ever to stop this kind of behavior and catch it before it manifests into violence, then it is vital that we learn to understand what she was thinking....but I understand that you really aren't too interested in stopping it and fixing the problem. That's someone else's issue to deal with isn't it. Punish them all
You're reading too much into this. I fail to see how you can possibly justify anything this woman did. We're not talking about something done in anger or in the heat of the moment. This woman beat, starved and stole from a person with the mind of a child. How do you justify that? How do you get forgiveness for something like that?
Also I don't agree that you can catch this sort of behavior before it starts. I've worked with a kid, under 12 mind you, who murdered his sister. He did it because he was jealous. My brother and I fought when we were kids because we were attention-seeking, but we never would have purposely hurt one another over it. So how do you tell the difference? Do you know how? Granted such things are, thankfully, rare, but how can you possibly catch that sort of thing before it happens?I'm not justifying anything she did or saying its right. The only one justifying anything is you, trying to justify your own cold stance and callous dismissal of someone's worth as a human being. You keep going back to working with this kid that no one has asked about or talked about. You worked with a kid and now you're an expert...Then you refer to your own childhood, that's the whole point you are basing all your conclusions on your limited experiences. Several of your comments directly contradict accepted conclusions of psychology and forensic profiling. There are always signs to this kind of behavior, but hardly people who care to look or notice. You're avoiding the whole issue I brought up by arguing in circles. The truth being you have no idea what you're talking about and are making sweeping generalizations on a group of people you dislike and hold in contempt. I ask again what have you done in life that makes you so right and above reproach that you are able to pass judgment on this woman?
Oh dear God, forensic profiling. Do you know the great weakness of profiling serial killers? Their statements are all subjective, you can't get anything objective about them. That sort of profiling is often times hit and miss.
As to what gives me the right to pass judgment? Well that's simple, I have never held anyone against their will, brutalized and tortured them and to cap it all off stolen from them and starved them. How can you not pass judgment on that person?
Don't start with the cycle of violence thing either. I've worked with kids who have survived situations almost as horrific and never used what happened to them as an excuse to continue the cycle. That's just a cop out.Deleted
Deleted
LOL I deleted mine, too. And you can edit your last one and clean it up, as I just did to this post.
For the record, I do agree to you. I did watch enough impulses in my own head that could have been ended in something like this crime, if not stopped. I don't judge her.
LDT, would you delete yours, please? Does not make any sense to have it here now, reallyWhere did I ever say we needed to execute all convicts? This case is an exception. I think I said that at the beginning. If not, let me say it now.
You might also consider a little less judgment and a little more reading. I don't know what you were in for, but you might be surprised at my views on drug sentencing or so-called vice crimes. I pretty much draw the line at laws being for the defense of a person's life and property. Anything beyond that and you're getting into murky territory.
You'll also note, I hope, that I'm against using the prison population as de facto slave labor. Hardly the views of someone who is stone cold, wouldn't you say?I wasn't in for drugs or vices my friend. I took a bat to a guys office after he stole 5800 dollars from me. Though we proved he actually did. I spent 18 months in prison. I understand though that it was my fault and took responsibility for my offense.
For that one moment I will carry a felony the rest of my life. Despite my time in service or commendations. So yes you might see where I have an issue with people who think themselves above criminals and societies marginalized people.
The one thing I learned in 18 months is that most criminals, even murderers are ordinary people and without being told what they did you would never know. As I said before the only thing separating you or anyone from a life in prison is a choice.I've never said she shouldn't pay, but calling for her death because it's cheaper or simpler is the ultimate cop out and turning our back on our own humanity. Her death serves no function except expediting the process of punishment, and the facts are given the average cost of execution and time waiting for appeal. life in prison is in fact cheaper. the State of Tennessee just proved this today at the sentencing hearing for a man convicted of brutally beating raping, and murdering a young couple who they kidnapped two days before, and tortured making the man watch as his girlfriend was brutally assaulted over and over then wrapped in a trash bag and folded into a trash can. It took her two days to die and she eventually suffocated. They are asking the death penalty. I think its a cop out. these men should spend the rest of their lives waiting to die and thinking about what they did.
Unfortunately, when you have something like California's 3 strikes law that locks up pot dealers for life, then I take your point. A felon is not a felon is not a felon with the current set of terms that we're working with. I fully understand that, as a whole, the criminal justice can be unfair and metes out punishment often unfairly.
You don't believe the killer could be put to work so that she generates considerably more value than it costs to clothe, feed and house her?
At that point, you're stepping into a gray area concerning slavery. Consider for a moment the economic effect of using what amounts to slave labor in making license plates. Since cons do this at far below market value, that means that private enterprise can't compete. So you've inadvertently cost potential jobs that a private company could be doing.
Also consider the fact that slave labor is notoriously inefficient and produces lesser quality items that might otherwise be produced. That's why it's so hard to use slave labor in manufacturing positions. If nothing else, your slave labor force will sabotage your equipment.
Now you might have a better argument if you force prisons to be self sufficient. Prisoners make their own clothes, grow their own food, etc. You'll never get true self-sufficiency, of course, but you can reduce the costs associated with housing them.I get your point. And yes, this person, through her own actions and not the country/ethnicity she was born into, would effectively become a slave, but one that would benefit the survivor of her crime.
I'm sure there are lots of practical considerations that would make this unworkable. It just comes out of a sense that the perpetrator of this heinous a crime should at least be forced to pay some restitution to those who will have to bear the costs of it.Like you've said, murder is permanent. My compassion lies with the victims of such crimes, not the perpetrators. I mean, let's face it, no amount of restitution will balance out the pain, fear and inhumanity this poor woman endured in her last months of life. Not to mention the life of her unborn child.
Some people, by their actions, just need killing. Osama bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, Jeffrey Dahmer, people like that. It's well documented that sociopaths see people as objects, not people. Real human beings can't relate to that. I surely can't relate to that, can you?Back in the 1960s when there was a labor shortage in Michigan and GM couldn't build enough cars, in cooperation with the UAW the state penal authorities and selected 100 soon-to-be-paroled volunteer inmates and housed them in a facility near the big Pontiac plant (now closed)in Pontiac, Michigan. The prisoners were put to work on the Pontiac assembly line and paid full wages and benefits which went into the bank or to their families. They were bussed every day from the living quarters to the plant. Nobody was ever late and absenteeism was very low. They accumulated seniority in accordance with the union agreement and were promised a job when they were paroled.
These kinds of work release programs are among the most effective rehabilitative programs available. This purpose would also be well served by having productive work programs in every prison with workers paid the prevailing wage for the area. Part of the wage could be assigned to the state to offset some of the cost of keeping the person in the pen. In the sixties, the 100 prisoners were working lots of overtime (60 hours a week) which gave them earnings that well exceeded the cost of their incarceration. Unfortunately, the program didn't last long because Pontiac sales declined not long after the program was initiated. These programs can do a lot to reduce the recidivism rate by helping to maintain family ties and help with a job upon release.As I said before Ralph, doing things that way deprives people who don't break the law of jobs. Now if we had a real system that rehabilitated drug offenders, for example, I'd be all for something like that. I'd be less enthusiastic about something like that for people convicted of property or violent crime.
Well, we can agree to disagree on that. In the particular case I cited in Pontiac, the prisoners didn't deprive anyone of a job because there was close to zero unemployment and nobody else to hire. Pontiac was sending buses south and recruiting car hops working in drive-in restaurants in Kentucky and Tennessee. That was the last time I can recall that there was a labor shortage in the Detroit area. Even if there were not a labor shortage, the rehabilitative value of these programs makes them worth while and much better than keeping prisoners idle until they are released with a new suit and a twenty dollar bill.
I was looking at a somewhat bigger picture. Labor does move to where there are jobs, after all. The migration from the South in the early 20th century being an example. It may also be our differences in ideology. I'd support teaching cons how to set up and run businesses when they get out, it would give them a bit of needed control over their lives and they wouldn't face the necessity of admitting they were convicts on an application.
@Scott. I don't know what you did, but I'm sorry that you define yourself as a con. Whatever you did, I'm sure it wasn't anything like what this woman did.You just don't know when to stop do you, now I define myself as a con, here we go again with the judgment, evidently you define me as a con. I broke the law its something I did, not who I am. I DEFINE myself by what I do everyday to better my life. You would be well advised to just stop right now. You really do not know what you are talking about.
Perhaps not, but it seems to me you think you have more in common with this woman than you do the rest of us. Or it could be that I'm reading your hostility as you thinking you define yourself as a con. I can't say for sure, because all I've gotten from you is anger and condescension.
Who exactly is us? I have noticed that you and several similar people have this habit of calling people ignorant and uneducated, considering their views to be simple minded and deluded. Yet when the same tactic and methods are thrown back at you, you cry foul and whine. I have read your posts repeatedly over the last few months and you present yourself as a clever and witty person and quite an authority on economics and Government. You often take a condescending and rather insulting stance with anyone who disagrees and then you throw links, and articles at them, while dodging questions and dancing around the issue, then accuse them of copping out. This time you've wandered out of your depth, and I've snapped at you again and again, but you just do not want to listen, so I'll make this plain for you. Until you've killed a man or looked into the eyes of a killer and saw their mind exposed then you really aren't much of an authority on the subject, and working around criminals and delinquents does not make you an expert, I've said it once and I'll say it again.
Now I am sure you will no doubt turn this around and say I am judging you and making claims about your character, so to save myself the trouble let me say that I have no issues with your character and I am sure that if you would learn the meaning of think before you speak and consider the impact of your words on others then you'd probably be a rather pleasant and entertaining individual.
That being said its not judgment to report what you observe someone doing or a pattern of behavior that is repeatedly displayed. Now If I were to be judgmental I'd say that your derogatory attitude towards convicts as a whole that you hide behind a premise of charity is going to get you hurt one day. I won't say that though because it's very presumptive and just mean spirited. In addition I have learned through experience that most convicts are exceptionally patient and understanding towards ignorance and have learned the hard way about measuring their speech and actions. So most will disregard your remarks and chalk it up to youth and inexperience as i am about to do.
Now I know that after reading this your first response will be to fire off with some little fact about yourself or info to refute everything I just said but I would advise you to stop and think about this for a moment. From the very beginning of this conversation I have controlled the flow of our exchange and have repeatedly kept it going when I know I could have stopped and walked away. But I didn't and I've been a bit of an ass in the mean time. While ultimately you will probably never learn anything from this I hope at the least you might walk away knowing that you never know who is listening and the person you're making comments to about one group or another might just be part of that group.
You might have noticed that most people on here are just stating a brief opinion for or against, not going off and condemning someone...just a clue maybe. So are you really condescending? Probably not, just patronizing in your youth and inexperience....just Like I just was, feels like crap doesn't it?
Well, we can agree to disagree on that. In the particular case I cited in Pontiac, the prisoners didn't deprive anyone of a job because there was close to zero unemployment and nobody else to hire. Pontiac was sending buses south and recruiting car hops working in drive-in restaurants in Kentucky and Tennessee. That was the last time I can recall that there was a labor shortage in the Detroit area. Even if there were not a labor shortage, the rehabilitative value of these programs makes them worth while and much better than keeping prisoners idle until they are released with a new suit and a twenty dollar bill.
And, as I pointed out previously, nearly all civilized countries eliminated the death penalty long ago.
I believe that's called the Glenn Beck debate philosophy.
Texas is too busy roasting anyone who could have even conceivably committed any crime to bother with an out-of-stater.
Only if you mess with the numbers. You'd have to add in the costs of lawyers and the appeals process. Given the rising costs of incarcerating someone, you know paying for meals, somewhere to put them, healthcare, etc., costs in that respect are rising.
Also don't forget that because you have people on death row for, well decades sometimes, statisticians like to factor that in to increase the cost of executions rather than leave it out. After all, it doesn't cost much more to keep someone on death row as it does the rest of the prison.Thats some good VooDoo economics by discounting out all the factors. Why let the facts get in the way of a good story?
Prove it's voodoo economics then, oh wait, I forgot, you don't argue using facts, you just make statements. Sorry.
Are your little feelings hurt or do you want to make up and play nice?
I don't have to prove the facts you do it for me in your own statement. I really wonder what you consider a fact. Reread your statement and honestly critique it yourself.
When you are done and then come to the realization it costs more to execute someone than it does to incarcerate them. Maybe you have a new take on the constitution and due process we would all love to hear.Maybe you need an example of how to use facts to bolster an argument. OK, here's how you do it.
Here's the source: http://www.cga.ct.gov/2000/rpt/olr/htm/2000-R-0461.htm
I think I stated something along the lines that you can't really compare the costs of capital cases and non-capital cases. This report validates that statement. Do you have a reasoned rebuttal or more ad hominem attacks?Isn't the internet a wonderful place to find facts. You can play too!
The following link counters your "Theory" decidedly. http://law.jrank.org/pages/5002/Capital … HMENT.html
Here is an exerpt from the article to save you some time so you can surf for some more distorted facts.
"Based on a sentence term of 40 to 45 years, one inmate would cost the taxpayer only slightly more than $1 million—less than a third of what it would take to pay for the process that culminates in execution. A twenty-five-year-old woman convicted of first-degree murder would need to serve a life term to the age of 145 before the costs of incarcerating her would surpass those of executing her."
Read more: http://law.jrank.org/pages/5002/Capital … z0VLvbRsON
Citing a comparison between a very liberal state and a very conservative one is really quite disingenuous.
You really can't back your opinions in this slanted way to counter a real argument.
Try again.
Her torment in prison will be far greater than the death penalty.
I don't think values are relative or individual when it comes to another person's life or death. By that logic, this criminal was only adhering to her own individual values.
That, and she clearly regarded her victim as "subhuman trash" who, for whatever reason, was not entitled to live. The only difference is that she violated the law of a society which- I might add- has its own record of arbitrarily denying the innocent their right to live, too.
If she's not an ongoing threat to others, there's no reason to kill her.Too bad the source you used only hosts the articles.
http://law.jrank.org/
It's an axiom in law that you can find case law to support or refute any particular law or position on the law. That's why law has become less than fair, shall we say. Which is why I quoted from commissions. While politically motivated, at least they have to show facts and figures, unlike legal opinions, which are just that opinions.
Again, you show your lack of skill in debate when you claim a maneuver to be ingenuous when it compares two things for similarities and differences. Just admit that you're biased towards your point of view and are unwilling to look at any data that contradicts your point of view.Well I don't think a Liar Liar point of view toward facts is a very strong one on your part. Attack me as you wish but your argument does not hold water and face it with your counter to my offering, you have proven once again how married you are to your opinion.
I could spend countless hours finding this law review of court findings about what "might" satisfy your musings but the fact of the matter remains that throwing around highly dubious "authoritive" opinions at the topic does not give you any more credibility than anyone else. Next insult puulease.Here are a few more to make you happy
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
http://www.drudge.com/news/126278/capit … -than-life
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent … punishment
http://www.law.columbia.edu/law_school/ … italpunish
I hope some of these will help you.
I, just like others, have my own view and obviously many may disagree and some other may agree. How ever, the simple fact that one person took the life of another person, doesn't diminish the value of their life.
As horrible as their actions are and may be dispised by others, it doesn't help solve a growing 'evil' that is constantly threatening humankind's existence.
The 'capital punishment' is a final solution and cannot be reversed. How ever, the fact that a person lost their life at the hands of a severely irresponsible person needs to be equalized. Putting a criminal who takes the life of another in a prison, while those who had nothing to do with the taking of that person's life is to support the burdening of housing, feeding and healthcare for the rest of their life is insanity run amok. There is no rational excuse to put further burden on society, to hope this person can be rehabilitated, or feel remorse for their actions.
Not to mention, there is always a possibility that said person could live long enough to become a detriment to society, yet again. To think that a person who commits a horrible criminal act, such as this, wouldn't do it again, if given the chance is completely irrational, specifically because of past experiences of other before her has proven that these forms of actions will be repeated, if given the chance.
Even, though 'capital punishment' is a final answer/solution is can be rationalized for the safety of society's overall health.
The argument on cost of 'executions' is not a legitimate reason for NOT doing it. The costs are something that needs to be re-evaluated or assessed properly, or solidified through other alternative thinking. Such as, the 'lethal injection' form of execution is only costly because of the legal drug manufacturers make it costly because it is government buying the drugs that are administered, and not because the drugs are expensive to make.
On that note- if an alternative solution can be obtained, then I would suggest an alternative solution be used. An example: the drugs seized and destroyed by government DEA agency personnel, so the drugs are not found back on the street or beneficial to drug lords, can be used to administer a lethal overdose for 'lethal injections' and inmates can go out with a bang. You administer just enough to do the execution.
Therefore the costs and methodology can provide society with a reinforced 'way' of seconding guessing of taking someone's life.
Right now, people kill because they have no 'fear' of prison or the justice system rules. They also know, if they can survive in prison, that they are going to get out eventually. Even a life sentence makes available parole to some. Life without the ability of parole, puts extreme burdens on the backs of society to maintain the inmate's living status, which isn't fair to more than just a life for a life.
It comes down to thousands, if not millions of people get to suffer for this one person's action, besides the fact that one person did lose their life.
There really isn't 'justified' action. But, what is in the best interest of society is what is expected.I can't believe a person could be that cruel, the same should be done to her.
Oh, my God! That's horrible!!!! That poor woman and her poor child!!! It makes me so sick to think of it.
- Scott.Lifeposted 14 years ago
0First a legitimate question, will killing this woman for her crime stop it from happening again? Will it give people who are considering the same kind of crime pause in doing it themselves? Probably not. What is often overlooked in cases like this is that these people have no respect for life most of all their own. They don't fear the death penalty or prison because inside they totally hate themselves and all the world. They see themselves as worthless and without value what so ever. What she has done is totally horrible. There is no denying it.
However I see alot of callous judgment and condemnation going on in this thread from people that will probably never experience either jail time or taking a life. There is nothing easy or casual about life inside a prison. there is no such thing as easy time and anyone who would like to argue the fact is welcome to go do some time inside and reevaluate your opinion. Reading about jail, and watching prison specials on TV is far from the reality.
I wonder if people would be so cavalier about the death penalty if they were the ones asked to perform it. Fighting evil requires evil actions so how then is the result good? This person may in fact be beyond rehabilitation today but she did not arrive here by herself. How long did this person suffer in her life at the hands of callous uncaring people before her spirit was broken and all sense of decency corrupted. People and dogs have alot in common neither are born cruel or mean, they are made that way, by the people closest to them.
My heart goes out to the victim and their family, but to the criminals family also, both have now lost someone that will never be returned to them. Very sad.I believe studies corroborate this: the death penalty is not an effective deterrent.
I don't think anyone thinks it's Disneyland. Many of us don't think it should be.
But, regardless of the factors contributing to this woman's psychopathic killing of an innocent human being, it doesn't change the fact that she does not deserve freedom. If she can be economically productive and spend the rest of her life taking care of her victim's child, all the better.
I do believe we need to understand better what makes people act like this--to me it's absolutely inconceivable that anyone with an ounce of conscience would, but I'm not a psychologist--so that it can be minimized in the future. Humanity has a pretty good track record of becoming a less violent species, at least on the interpersonal level.We do understand what makes these people tick. You want to worry on a real moral quandary? Try working with a sociopathic kid. A kid you know if they were let out into society, they would start killing. I thank God I only worked with one or two kids like that.
You're innocent until proven guilty. You can't lock someone up until they actually do something, no matter how much you think that they might. I'm sure there are plenty of people that some people thought, for sure, they would end up killers but didn't.
I neglected to mention that one of the kids, under 12 years of age, murdered his sister because he was jealous of her.
Well, that's one kid who, unfortunately, did live up to the expectations of him. Are you advocating for life imprisonment for child killers?
He did this before we got him. He was already a killer. To be honest, I'm not sure what we should do with him. Not for his sake, but for the sake of possible innocents that might get caught up in hysteria, like that first grader who got suspended for a kiss:
http://www.americanpolicy.org/educ/akisson.htm
But yeah, in this kid's case I'd have little problem locking him up forever.
The other kid I'm thinking of was a teen. He tried to poison his grandmother and also set up a contraption that would have killed him when his grandmother opened the door to wake him in the morning. The Rube Goldberg contraption failed.
Now that kid is an adult, living in a halfway house, mooching off Social Security, hanging around with juvenile delinquents and contributing nothing to society.
death penalty to this woman, i agree, but to others who are commiting heinous crimes but wasnt proven beyond reasonable doubt. whole life sentence is enough.
in other societies (philippines for example), rich people can get away with anyhting, best lawayers and they get away scott free, only those who are poor are sentenced to death by lethal injection because they cant get rich lawyers to defend them.That's true here too. The rich and famous can usually get off less worse than normal people because they can hire the best lawyers and they usually have the jury's sympathy.
oh if thats the case, then death penalty is never the solution to stop heinous crimes because there is imperfection to the system...justice system.
What if you executed somebody wrongly accused, and after many years because we have DNA now, he isnt actually the one who committed the crime?Exactly, which is why poor people are at a disadvantage. Actually, I'm surprised that she wasn't sentenced to death because of the nature of the crime. I don't have all the facts but the state might not have the death penalty or there might be mitigating circumstances.
need to read more about it now, LOL thanks flightkeeper
I'm curious as to what you would consider mitigating circumstances. I can't think of any.
Ditto, Ledefensetech. This was repeated and horrible abuse and imprisonment over a long period of time on someone who was not mentally all there. And teenaged boys were taught to do the same thing. And for the record, the ONLY reason I'm for the death penalty in this case is because I think the US prison system would be way too cushy for this broad. If we were talking life in a Mexican prison, well.....
Off the top of my head, one mitigating circumstance is if she was under the influence of a regular drug habit, if she was slowly becoming insane, something that would make her not know right from wrong. It sounds far-fetched but since I didn't really know the facts of the case and know only that she tortured this woman that's why I mentioned mitigating circumstances.
Even the kids we got that were abusing hallucinogens didn't have episodes like this woman did. Neglect would be one thing and I could understand how a person with a habit could neglect someone like the victim, but this lady tortured and taught others to torture the victim. That's a decision, not the result of drug use. Like I said, I can't think of any mitigating circumstances.
Well good for you and you have no problem sentencing her to death but my answer is different from yours and as I said there might be mitigating circumstances that I would consider and you won't.
Chill, all I said was that I couldn't think of any circumstances. It doesn't matter anyway since she was sentenced to 30-45 years.
I'm okay, you're the one arguing with people.
I hear you, it's hard to let go sometimes. I should probably go look in a mirror.
Yup, you keep pissing off this many people and you'll only have the mirror to talk to. The case must have pushed some buttons for you, I guess.
I haven't read all the posts here, so forgive me if I seem a little rough here, but I think we should go back to firing squads for people like that. A bullet is cheap, quick, and final, and a much more humane death than the one she imposed on that poor disabled woman. There are so many selfish people in this world, who could do something like this to another. The world would be a better place without them in it!
Cases like these where innocent people have been executed are why we don't need the death penalty:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execute … y-innocent
Moreover, research shows that the death penalty is not an effective deterrent of capital crimes.
And cases like these where innocence was established on death row before an execution:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocen … lty#inn-st
Moreover, the U.S. is one of the few advanced countries that still practice capital punishment. My state, Michigan, banned the death penalty 1851 and was the first English speaking government in the world to do so. Currently, Michigan is one of 12 states that don't have the death penalty.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/2020It would certainly stop that woman from doing it again!
True, but, and some will cringe at this but I don't want to spend all that tax money on her. Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not ready to pull the trigger at this very moment, she would have to be found guilty as charged with any mitigating circumstances taken into consideration. If she was found guilty I don't think she should be shown much more mercy then she herself showed to the woman she had complete control over.
I said this in another post, but today in Tennessee the board of audits released the cost figures on execution versus life in prison, and given the price charged by the suppliers, in addition to appeals, and legal fees on top of the average wait for execution. Life in prison is actually cheaper over a 30 year time frame. I know I was shocked too, but its another case of Government suppliers raping the fed on costs. Hanging is the cheapest form of execution and still an option in several states.
- Louidam1posted 14 years ago0
The death penalty should be the same way she killed that pregnant women so she can feel the pain that women went through before her death.
One interesting twist that everybody ignores. Would she do the same, if there was no monthly SS check involved? Would she even bother with putting a poor women in her house?
Good point Misha, I'd say if there were no payoff involved then probably not, but that in itself is sad.
That's what was unknown for me. What was the relationship between those women? How did they even encounter each other? This case kind of reminded me of that Bette Davis movie, Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, where one of the women just got weirder and weirder.
I agree, but I was rather talking about the government in its infinite wisdom giving money to mentally disabled. Doncha think it's a recipe for disaster? How many handicapped people still suffer the same fate, forcefully being kept barely alive as inmates for those checks?
Without Social Security this kind of crime would be hardly possible...Well the check by itself doesn't prompt that kind of criminal behavior otherwise it would be the norm. I'd like to think that she is an aberration. And I don't put scams in the same category either. That woman exhibited willful torture. It was really unnecessary in order for her to get that check.
How do you know? I would think it does. Mentally disabled having some money are too easy of a target to not be exploited, unfortunately.
And yes, sure, torture likely was absolutely unnecessary to get the checks. The information is very limited, but based on the article, I would think this woman kept her victim for some time, and then started to realize the kind of power she had over her. As usual, power corrupts - so here comes bullying and torture. I don't even think she intended to kill her golden goose, she probably just overdid unintentionally. Or may be this were her kids...
Nite Flite
I found that kind of strange too. Usually there is a guardian that takes care of the finances, I'm not too sure what happened in this case.
The check was only one part though, the torture was something else entirely. If the check were that important, I don't think this lady would have starved the victim. But then again, she's obviously nuts, so it's a bit hard to see where this lady is coming from.Ha "she's obviously nuts" and that's called a mitigating circumstance, nothing but net, goodnight ladies and gentlemen...sorry man I just couldn't resist. I saw you on here again and had to see what you said. Should we execute crazy people with no hold on sanity or rationality, there's another question?
Sigh. There's crazy and there is crazy. I'd hesitate to execute someone who is truly MR or suffering from something like schizophrenia. There is, however, another type of crazy. Someone like Richard Ramirez is crazy, but different than a sufferer of schizophrenia or some other mental disorder. He was methodical and deliberate in his madness. John Wayne Gacy was likewise crazy. Even someone like Timothy McVeigh and Osama bin Laden all carry the same brand of craziness.
Or would you argue that their actions are the actions of sane, rational people?How do you feel about executing innocent people?
http://www.slate.com/id/2227222/
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/us/20 … amp;st=cseI believe I've said in the past that I'm opposed to the death penalty because of the chance we'll murder innocents. This is a pretty open and shut case, on the other hand, and is so horrific that I can't see any other outcome. I very much doubt this woman is innocent.
LDT, another significant item we agree on! Let's keep searching and maybe we'll find more!
Like most people, we seem to agree on the right thing to do, what we differ on is the best way to go about it.
Sigh.... Six Days you wait six days to start this back up? Okay but moving on in life you have a good time debating with yourself.
- Scott.Lifeposted 14 years ago0
Goodnight Misha,Leden.., and everyone else its been a lively discussion and yet another example of how not to let the forums reduce you to lower levels of assanine behavior. I would apologize but that would be too noble and human, so I will instead say thank you all for your opinions and insight they have caused me to once again take stock of my own thoughts and position.
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