Why do subsequent administrations turn a blind eye to their transgressions?
It's because China own us and Pakistan has the bomb.
China does not "own us," and the Pakistani government currently cannot and would not use the nuclear weapons it has on the US.
China owns our debt and they finance our dubious wars. If that is not beholding to someone I don't know what is. That is why we pamper them when it comes to human rights and slave labor laws. We can't be getting in the way of the cheap accessible labor market to feed our Walmarts and Target stores.
As far as the bomb goes you get a great deal of respect when your country joins the bomb club. Look how well it has worked and is being worked by tyrants like Ahmadinijad and Jong-Il. North Korea got nuclear power plants from it from Clinton and Iran is working their magic in getting concessions lifted and a say in the regions politics.
Pakistan is a whole other subject and while they may not pose a threat to the US directly there is evidense to support the bomb is making them a credible player in the region for an aliance. This is why we just don't invade them going after Al Qaeda.
Have you heard any of this before?
This is all lovely rhetoric, but entirely empty. The old boys in Beijing do not have an oversized check book they sign that says "Dubious US Wars."
Well the figures show that we owe te Chinese 798 Billion dollars in unsecured debt which is 23.35% the total debt owed. They are our highest holder of our debt.
You should read this:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Busi … 1Cb06.html
As far as financing our wars you should check it out for yourself.
Do I have to tell you everything.
No but they hold a large part of our debt and are willing to gamble on us to get part of it back. Really where have you been?
This also makes no sense. The US government does not hire cheap labor out of China, private US businesses do and even that isn't as simple as "cheap labor" (not slave labor).
We do nothing about their human rights record but talk because we practically can do little else.
We can vote with our wallets and not buy from those stores who use labor so cheep as to be thought of as slave labor.....
I am found of buying from charity shops for cheep clothing n such, supports a good charity and I often find real treasures that way!
Cheap labor is NOT "slave labor," and I find that an irresponsible use of language.
In any case, good luck not buying anything made in China.
What do you consider slave labor? Is $0.28 an hour that you consider just cheap labor? That is an average of what they make and a lot of them are children.
You know what the word "slave" means, right?
Why don't you look it up under slave labor in Asia. I am tired of educating you when all you do is repeat party and patriotic rhetoric.
Do you really operate with such blinders on all the time?
I don't need to look up the actual meaning of the actual word, and I've see the actual labor in Asia, thanks.
Okay then I get it, comprehension is your problem.
What were you saying about an economics lesson?
We don't invade them because they are a Democracy and an important ally in the region.
Is this a kind of joke on democracy?
Pakistan is an important ally thats true but why? this is the real question. Everyone knows whats going on in Pakistan but US still following ''see no evil'' rule in pakistan and for your kind information it never had a real democracy so find reason other than democracy
Hopefully you don't invade whoever because you have got no freaking right to invade anyone! Jeeesh
Wrong, wrong, wrong. This stuff is really scary, and absolutely no joke. You have got no more right to invade another country than another country has the right to invade you. Was it right for Iraq to invade Kuwait? Was it right for the Soviets to invade Afghanistan? But this is going to veer off into a large debate; just suffice to say, invading other countries is extremely dangerous; not least because it ends up generating a whole bunch of terrorists out of people who wouldn't have been terrorists if you'd left them alone. But, as I say, this is a very large topic...
Right, right, right. Is this the part where I ask if it was ok to invade Germany during WWII and you say no that was different and we go 'round and 'round?
There was a declaration of war involved if you can recall. And when did the US become the morality police?
There was an actual state involved as I recall, and much of the world has demanded the US be the morality police (or in the case of Europe, silent sentry) for a looooong time.
Who told you that? We have no business patrolling the world and inflicting our interests and views than any other country has. What an arrogant and elitest thing to profer.
That's a good one. Was it a whole lot of people or just enough?
Many thousands of people from every corner of the globe.
LOL You got me. That was a joke. See we can get along.
That statement is right in line with the Bush Doctrine. Maybe you can consult with Sarah Palin and the both of you can learn more about it.
At least you have the right to invade the terrorist countries like Pakistan which is more dangerous than Iraq and Afganistan! ''Jeeeeeesh''
I know, that's why I said it. And it's also a Democracy in a place where we want to encourage Democracy.
I don't know if it's as much turning a blind eye as misinterpretation and confusion about different cultures. Take for example the manner in which Japan infiltrated America. Their way of doing business was, well it was foreign for us here in the states and they easily swept through American business transforming our economy. Not good or bad, it just happened, changing the way we (Americans) do business. That's just in the economic context, but it extends to the socio-political sphere as well. No country can truly be isolationist because that only invites, in a way even demands, trade in the black market & other underground channels. Even as we condemn, or conversely accept another country's behavior, or culture, we invite others to either perpetuate or work to halt behavior we may find disagreeable. May the best man/woman (read speices) win. Not the 'good' one, but the one(s) with the survival skills, whatever they may be for that particular climate.
...and if you refused to do business with every country that committed transgressions of any seriousness, you'd be trading with Denmark, Mauritius, and Togo, and that'd be it. (which doesn't excuse it, but at some point there is a practicality issue)
There is some caution needed in dealing with both, that I agree with.
Yes there is a limit when pandering to China and Pakistan.
America too. They may put you in power then do a "regime change" on your sorry ass!
Maybe the answers to 'What happens if we don't pander to them?' are a bit too difficult to contemplate?
America is not really in a position to negotiate with China. What pampering of Pakistan? Not sure what you mean by this.
"We" is the United States. "You" is Australia.
Like it or not, I am not Australia and You are not the United States.
Tell me though, please, what bargaining chips do the US have against China. China bought billions of US debt, they provide the supply for US demand. Why does China care about the US? Tell me.
You are failing to see the point. But just to keep you entertained I am a citizen of Australia and Britain.
Yes, we established that
But now America has no money and China has all the US debt so where does that leave the junk trade?
America is still the largest economy in the world by far, but 14th or so ain't bad...
awesome news, thanks for raising my awareness yet again.
Built on debt. Nothing tangible as proven by the mortgage failings.
No money???? We will just print more and they will buy more junk bonds so we can buy their junk....who's the bigger idiot? Besides if China calls the debt, the US won't be able to pay. What are they going to do????? Its a wash is what it is. It only really means we can't tell them what to do in regards to Tibet, Tiawan or Hong Kong... which we shouldn't do anyway.
Well China could begin to do what Japan did and that is to start buying up some of our banks and industries. This would give them a foothold and influence that could undermine even our smaller business'. The whole issue is a mute one if you take into account the way this whole trade relationship exists. We lazy Americans in an effort to not do the the smaller menial jobs associated with manufacturing have elected to allow American business to ship those jobs overseas so that we can do the more prized service oriented jobs that require less manual labor. Paper handeling and financial jobs as well as technology jobs is where we are headed. Forget the debt, times will be better is the mantra we have heard for years and are still sold on.
You think so. How did we let Mexican labor overtake the job market? And what have unions done to assure that skilled labor rises above unskilled. You make the same no matter your skill level in the unions. Seniority is what pays. I could go on and on about this including people paid to not plow their fields and how often someone is paid medical disability never to return to working a lesser job.
Are you that naive?
China will take over soon, doesn't matter what anyone does.
Because of its size, population and economy, China cannot take over sooner or later... It will happen never.
History tells us that a small nation called Japan defeated the most powerful Russian (Tsarist) empire in 1905. A small nation called Britain ruled over half of humanity. A small nation called Nepal held Tibet captive till 1959, receiving annual taxes from them. A small country called Manipur (now in India) ruled over Burma more than a 100 years ago. Most parts of China came under Japan during WW-2.
Even now, a small country called Israel faces more than 100 times its own population, ready to destroy it.
No matter what their size, population is, the winners always are not the biggest and largest.
It is fair enough to give examples of small nations that have dominated but to suggest that because of large size, large population and strong economy that China CANNOT take over... that seems a big leap
Some additional points... China is advocating a wrong side, underestimating its own neighbours, has no democracy, (which enables to take collective & proper decisions).
Larger empires have fallen like cards against ruthless invaders. This region has seen everything. In the 11th and 16th century, large and wealthy empires in India were wiped out by Md.Ghori and Babar, who not even had a dwelling place. They came, they saw, they conquered. Wealth and size cannot protect anyone.
China can harass, torture, dismember or even kill only unarmed Tibetan monks. ("The Rape of Shangri la") They cant come out of their borders and do it. For strange reasons, the world keep silence on these points, while it sees "human right violations" in petty cases in other countries.
The world is not silent on the persecution of Tibetans, I don't agree with that statement, and within China, most of us know there are human rights violations -- now, whether governments refuse to do business with the Chinese as a result is a different question...
As I wrote earlier, who would you have left to do business with if you didn't do business with countries that have committed atrocities - look what Canada did to its aboriginal peoples, look how Britain dominated people with "iron fist in velvet glove" -- who are you going to do business with: Russia???
No, I think perhaps that business and economic ties can be *leverage* to pressure China and other countries to shape up: of course, our Western politicians don't *actually* care about human rights in any case. *That* is the real problem
On another note, Australia is the number 1 supplier of Iron ore to China.
And your next biggest buyer is...?
I have made this clear many times before, I like China. I hope they take over the world. The fact Australia supplies Iron ore to China is a good thing. What is it you are trying to reveal here? What bargaining weight does US have with China?
You still fail to answer the question. What power does America hold over China?
Allow me to rephrase, I will be glad when China takes over the world. It is not a matter of hope, all evidence makes it obvious.
YOU depend on China because they are your biggest (and an indispensable) customer. China depends on the US as its biggest customer. I hope this isn't too complicated.
America's custom is almost a fairy tale now seeing how it is so broke. China has a huge savings account so I don't see that as an issue.
LOL! Stay tuned for a biiiiig economics lesson!
I base my conclusions on evidence, what do you base yours on? Besides patriot extremism.
Oh no, it will have much more impact when it washes over you (if you are in a position to recognize it when the time comes).
Look at it this way, America has functioned for a long time without anything to offer the world, besides arms and custom. If China takes over, it cannot do the same thing? You believe China needs the US?
Think about it hypthetically, China takes over, still maintains all its current business interests, plus takes over the role of dominant power. Not difficult.
Wrong. I'm sorry if America makes Australia feel insignificant. It need not, in my opinion.
Get this right, I am not Australia, I do not base my individual worth on the economic cards of the national government. Your suggestion is no more than a joke to me.
You are Australian, despite your odd attempts to avoid mentioning it for so long. And good for you that you are. Seems like a nice place.
I am Australian, yes. I am not sure what you are getting at now. I have mentioned my nationality previously, well before this forum topic. I do recall intentionally not mentioning it at one point a few weeks back. You still side step the point.
So far as Australia being insignifcant in world politics, well yes, of course! That is one of its benefits. It is a nice place for some reasons, not so nice for others. I am not Australia tho, I just live here.
There is absolutely no doubt, whether you recognize it or not. Just like you are dependent upon China and therefore in a position of subservience.
It must be a lonely place to be, holding all this wisdom to yourself, seeing as how the rest of the world just wouldn't understand.
awwwww, I was starting to enjoy that.
Till next time.
I hope I am not intruding, this conversation has been fun to read
As for what america has offered the world, well there is more then guns and American customers (custom) We also have offered the world Mc Donalds and other fine fast foods, not to mention an industry of cool that has seen the rise of the tween. Global American imports like fast food and cool trendy ways to waste money are loved by the rest of the world, right?
Back the the original question, I don't know what Pakistans deal is, do they have nukes? That would make em dangerous enough to pamper.
As for China, well they own Americas debt, they have the upper hand now. Growing up I was taught that being in debt to someone means they own a piece of you, owe money to the bank and they kinda own you. Think about the old company store, workers had to borrow against their earnings to buy the tools they needed to do the job as well as the food and other goods they needed to survive, workers were nothing more then slaves to the company store. I believe there was a song with the line "I owe my soul to the company store". Personally I have never taken out a loan or gotten a credit card, the only money I have ever owed anyone was to close friends who were more like family then my real family, and they usually told me to forget about it or offered some easy to way to pay em back.
However, America is in a position to negotiate with China. Their strong (though very negative) card is the promise not to go belly up without paying back some of the debt. They have the power to say be nice to me or I'll go bankrupt on you!
To bad that didn't work between the banks and the sub-prime mortgages. Be nice to SP Mortgagers or else the whole thing will collapse
Because of the economic weakness, America will never succumb to China. If that is so, here in Pakistan, there is nothing called economy. Its whole ruling apparatus is hanging on American and other muslim countries' financial help. It never gets any loan from others... only "aid". In that position, it bargains with America, China and the terrorists. They are already bankrupt but that country is pulling on. Why not America? Its economy is not bad as others imagine. Even now, it is the strongest.
Valid point. However, this imposes the necessary question, will the US be able to pay such a debt. Whether China and the US go to war it may not be a case of economic relations between those two but necessary due to other conflicts of interest. If the US is going bankrupt anyway... the are more significant causes that could lead to war.
It's unfortunate that the 98lbs. weaking so often feels that if the big strong guy who has been protecting him for so long were to fall and break his leg that would make the weakling stronger.
Doesn't work that way.
I cannot dream up a worse case scenario than America continuing its reign.
It is highly irresponsible, and quite offensive, to misuse the word "slave" to exaggerate a political position.
It seems you are on your own there tk.
If you want to belittle the memory of all those who have suffered (or are suffering) under real slavery in order to make some little political point, that's on you.
I choose not to ignore the slaves of now.
The bigger question is what are you doing about making sure you understand it and how you contribute to it.
You really need a reality check. Have you ever been overseas and seen what is going on? Do you just turn away from the newspapers and television stories when this stuff is presented to you?
I said it before and I will say it again, it really is a TK world for you isn't it?
Wow. You are really going that route? The "have you ever been overseas? Are you as worldly and enlightened as me?" route? That's embarrassing for you. Come on.
I guess the answer is no and yes an eyeball on the situation gives you a better perspective than the conjecture you draw from. Sorry you cannot come along the same route, not my fault.
The answer is 'yes,' and did you expect such a silly, presumptuous and arrogant attitude to aggrandize yourself in some way? Why does everyone who has ever stepped outside their village assume they are Marco-freakin-Polo?
Well the only thing I can assume from your response is the trip was not very informative. Your inference that it is not neccessary to visit a place to get a real perspective of the situation says it all. Sorry, it really is a TK world for you isn't it?
The US is not invading Pakistan, not because it is a democracy.
If America is sincere about democracy, it should advocate India, a perfect democracy for over 60 years. But American eyes are somewhere else. American support for terrorist Pakistan has created more trouble than good in this region.
Its strategic geographical position helps Pakistan. It lies just south of the former Soviet Union's borders. It separates the oil-rich middle-east from South Asia. With a shaky political apparatus, Pakistan serves American interests! Since 1947, Pakistan has never seen a democratic government. Even if there is one, the President and Prime Minister will always be on the fear of what the army will do next, and when will the army arrest them and take over.
America thinks that with Israel on the west and Pakistan on the east, it can control the oil regions. It has failed to take note of the fact that there are people in those areas, who have their own aspirations and dreams.
When the buyer has some plans, why not the sellers (of oil)?
Why would America advocate a sixty-year old model when it has had a model that has lasted since 1776 - and Britain the makings of a model since the Middle-Ages... Besides, in all of these examples (America, Britain, India), there is still poverty and deprivation, (in India on a horrific scale) so what good is democracy if you can't feed your kids
Well, that would be a lot of pampers to pamper them with, maybe some outside investors could donate some pampers to these over populated countries!!
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