is spanking your child ok? or not?

1. 60

   Al Teregoposted 15 years ago

   how many people dont want to spank kids but abortin dem b4 dey are born is good.   Yeah Yeah no violence in an abortion right.  OOh dont spank your kid you shoulda jus aborted it den everying wood b cool

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2. 59

   lostgirlscatposted 15 years ago

   Try this scenario on for size: you persist in a behavior your husband (partner,S.O., take your pick) finds disagreeable, perhaps even dangerous. After trying communication, silent treatment, etc., he finds that "physical discipline" is the only effective means of last resort for controlling your offensive and/or dangerous behavior.  Is this acceptable behavior on his part? Of course not, you may well reply, I'm an adult, and capable of making my own boneheaded decisions.  Yes, you are. And about 100 lbs more capable of defending yourself. If this "discipline" is abuse when applied to you, how much more so for a defenseless child that looks to you for protection from harm.  And the pyschological harm that child suffers will far outlast the physical pain you have inflicted or any "lesson" you feel you may have taught. The lesson they may well take into the future are ones of fear, and quite possibly, hate. Take it from someone who spent many years trying to shed those lessons, and quite possibly never will, completely.

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      Springboardposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I get where you're coming from, but you are comparing apples to oranges. We are talking about children. Adults, for the most part, know the difference between right and wrong. Children do not. We have to get away from this touchy-feely society or its going to ultiamtely destroy us.
      
      And again, I stress, abuse and discipline are not the same thing. We cannot lump the two into the same conversation. Corporal punishment is good. Abuse is bad.

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         cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         The Super Nanny, who is an expert on children, as well as those other nannies i forget the name of that show, are all against spanking, in case anyone is interested.

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            Springboardposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            I've come to the conclusion that most experts aren't, especially in these types of matters.

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3. 0

   cosetteposted 15 years ago

   haha
   
   well i don't wanna get carried away...

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4. 0

   Audreveaposted 15 years ago

   You blame the teachers for that?

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      Webmatronposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Nope...just saying that the creative discipline failed to keep some crazy kids from shooting up the place.
      
      That was a time some physical force would have come in handy.

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   Audreveaposted 15 years ago

   Well that was a criminal act and would be treated as such. Like I said before, we do as a society allow assault under certain circumstances. The police have powers to take action to combat violence.
   
   I won't say nothing like that has ever happened in Australia, but it's rare.   
   
   Creative teaching is going to have a hard time against an assailant with a gun... unless we want to equip them all (teachers) with weapons, which seems like a bad idea.

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   cosetteposted 15 years ago

   actually, i have had my share of tense situations. i have a boy, remember? they can get into all sorts of interesting stuff, certainly some dangerous ones.
   
   i don't assume you're a child abuser, so please don't assume i've never actively parented my child or faced difficult or tough situations, ok?
   
   peace out, Webmatron. i can tell you love your daughter, and that's the most important thing when it's all said and done.

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7. 0

   Audreveaposted 15 years ago

   When you see a child get a smack for doing something truly dangerous (or making a move to), it doesn't really attract any negative attention b/c people can see the urgency and understand the reaction.
   
   That's not the main use of spanking though. It does get used as a punishment, often just to mitigate the parent's own frustration. You see people telling a child off and slapping upon each syllable. That's not about the child or danger, that's all about how they are feeling at the time.

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      Webmatronposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      This is true, and the reason why I think there needs to be parenting classes as early as high school...like part of home economics.
      
      I never understood why parenting isn't a normal part of the curriculum for home ec.
      
      Organized spanking is something I don't like.  If one can take the time to organize a beating session, one can think of a punishment that actually fit the crime.

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8. 61

   Webmatronposted 15 years ago

   ...and about the teenagers thing, by now my daughter probably could kick my a** if she wanted to.
   
   Ask yourself why, if my decisions were so horrible, she doesn't.
   
   I have one rule in my house: use your brain.  That's about it.  I hardly tell her what to do, and when I have to, at her age, I let her know that it annoys me to have to do so when she knows what she needs to do.
   
   She dresses modestly, not because I force her to, but because as she says, she wants to be treated with respect.  She's not into the craziness that most teens are into mainly because it has no fascination for her.
   
   I raised her to be independent and think for herself.  No gestapo mess in my house, just mutual respect.
   
   That's about as natural and free as it gets.  So there aren't any organized spankings, but there has been physical discipline the very few times it was needed.
   
   ...and every time, I've told her flat out that this may not have been the ideal way to handle the situation, but I am not an ideal person or a robot, and this is not an ideal world of ideal robots.
   
   She's cool with that, and cool with me.
   
   So whatever mommy dearest fantasies some of you are nurturing, it's not me.  I knew that my daughter was very likely to be very much like me, so I didn't make the same mistakes my parents made being overly abusive...but I also didn't make the same mistake some of my aunts made with some of my currently or formerly incarcerated or screwed up cousins, and be overly indulgent.
   
   I think I'm pretty balanced, and this is the only reason I'm against anti spanking laws...because parents who aren't like me need to have some recourse against parental abuse which does happen and is very real.
   
   Parents need to have the right to defend themselves too.

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      cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      lol @ "Mommy Dearest"
      
      c'mon, WebMatron, really?
      
      that woman was depraved. it sounds like you're doing just fine. so many girls wanna show their stuff, and i think it is wonderful that your daughter doesn't.
      
      we needn't fight even though we have different views. you have your way, i have mine, and i never once thought you were abusive. i just have an aversion to hititng, that's all.

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9. 0

   cosetteposted 15 years ago

   i've seen people grab their kid's tiny shoulders at the supermarket. the kid is just sititng there not doing anything, and the mom squeezes them, a look of rage on her face, and the kid starts going "OW!" and crying, i'm like you know, the best yardstick is treat them as you want to be treated.

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10. 72

    earnestshubposted 15 years ago

    hitting a child in my presence will get you a full punch in the face!

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       Webmatronposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Now that's rational. (Not)
       
       If a kid is about to get into some major damage, and the parent pulls them away and swats them on the behind, you're going to punch the parent in the face?
       
       What kind of message do you figure that sends to the kid?
       
       I'd say it depends on the situation, and whether or not it's abuse.  If I see someone abusing a child, I'll tell them to stop.  If they don't then I'm stepping in.  If I don't know what it is, I'll find out before I start hitting people.

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       Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I think you are overreacting Ernest

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          earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I agree Misha!

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       Audreveaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I have the feeling that goes along with that (though not the punchy punchy so much). It's like telling them to stop isn't really, by rights, good enough. You really would like to see them have a taste of their own medicine.
       
       Not so much where it is just a couple of smacks because the parent genuinely thinks this is a useful tool to teach a lesson, but the other stuff you see all the time.
       
       You just want to slap them (hard) and say, "how do you like it?"

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          earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you! Much more eloquent!

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11. 72

    DaniellaWoodposted 15 years ago

    As the child (well, teenager now) I'd say no! haha But I've never had to be spanked, because I was brought up well and so never really misbehaved. I had my moments, of course, and I'm not saying that whenever a parent spanks their child, it's because they haven't raised them properly - that's just silly - but by all means, there are other ways to discipline a child. When you feel a situation becomes tough and resort to violence to resolve it, the child will grow up thinking that's what to do. It's not setting the right example in my eyes. Use the power of words - and by that I don't mean bribery! - but use words and dominant body language to enforce your point. It should never have to come to violence.

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12. 0

    cosetteposted 15 years ago

    my son knew from a very young age when i was upset with him. one time he was about 11 months old and getting into everything. one day it was really quiet so i went to check on him and he was in the kitchen, and the lazy susan was open, where i kept all my spices. i never wanted him to play there because i was always worried he would get his hand caught in it when it turned and it would hurt him, so i went 'OH, no no you don't want to play in there' and i showed him how my hand could get stuck in it but since i was a grown-up, it was ok. so he kind of nodded and i looked at his feet and there was paprika all over them
    
    and i asked 'did you eat any of these spices?' and his eyes got real big and he just nodded yes and i said oh well these are for cooking not eating, ok?
    
    but it was my fault for leaving them where he could reach them. i was so busy hiding things like bleach and scissors and stuff i didn't think about spices. so i put a baby lock on it and that solved the problem.
    
    now i'm all sad remembering his little paprika feet ;_;

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    1. 61

       Webmatronposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       @cosette
       Hmm...I wonder if he's going to be a chef someday, or maybe a perfumer.  He might have been fascinated with the smells.
       
       Interesting that he went for paprika.  Do you have Hungarian roots?  It would explain a lot.
       
       It's not politically correct to say so, but I think ancestry with a combination of genetic and epigenetic factors, probably has a good deal to do with how physical a parent may or may not happen to need to get in upbringing.
       
       I come from a long line of stubborn, contrary folks (can't you tell?) and my granparents were serious spankers.  My mom used to say my grandma was like a drill sergeant.
       
       Mom was more wild with it...less drill sergeant like, but scarier.
       
       I'm more martial arts type...only when expedient, which has been only a handfull of times.  Maybe my daughter won't spank at all, but will still have to have a kind of martial style of discipline because we seem to be really stubborn people.
       
       Almost everyone I've met from Hungaria though, doesn't spank, and says they never needed to.  Being friendly seems to be well ingrained into the culture, and I noticed very little if any guilt manipulation in families.
       
       Maybe I'm reading the culture wrong from the outside, but there seems to be a level of sensitivity that a parent being disappointed is enough of a deterrent against over the top bad behavior.

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          cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          thank you BlondePoet
          
          i was reading your posts from last night..you have a great sense of humor!
          
          
          
          
          
          haha....Hungarian? noooo
          
          all kinds of blood runs thru my veins though, irish, spanish, mayan even.
          
          my mom was the hitter in my family. she liked to make it hurt, and would scream too mostly to vent her own ill temper. as i would get hit i thought 'you know, i'm never going to hit my kids', so that is where that comes from. i was always super obedient anyway, out of fear.
          
          too bad too. i would feel awful if my child feared me
          
          anyway my son has expressed interest in being a chef but he's going to be an archtect instead, although he is a great cook! better than me

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    Audreveaposted 15 years ago

    That's so cute!  We used to climb the cupboards to get to the cake tin.

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       cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       haha! one time he was playing in the cupboard and got an angel cake pan stuck on his head. i was all scared and he was just laughing)
       
       ah kids...

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14. 0

    shazwellynposted 15 years ago

    Well... whatever you do as a parent would be wrong!

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15. 61

    Webmatronposted 15 years ago

    Backing it up about the Native American crying thing, my mom says it was just the nose.  They used to close the baby's nose if they cried too much or at inopportune times (such as when hiding from people).  Then they couldn't breathe and cry at the same time, and preferred to breathe.

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    Springboardposted 15 years ago

    Here's one thought that I just feel is needing to be put out there to be thought about. How many cases of mass school killings did we have in the earlier days of our history? How many office shootings?
    
    I'll say it again, we've become too touchy-feely. We tell our kids they are pefect. They can never fail. They become weak. They become afraid of everything in life. They enter into difficult situations and implode.
    
    That's where we've gotten to. That's what happens when Johnny can do no wrong, and no one takes a moment to stop and let him know what the reality is. That's what happens when everyone becomes so afraid that Johnny might be damaged by something they say or do, that in the end, he becomes more damaged than anyone could have imagined.

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       Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Wrong, it is the abuse that creates troubled kids. Telling them they are losers and they are nothing. Telling a child they are wonderful never created a monster.

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          Webmatronposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          So you were abused as a child then?  Is that why you're now emotionally abusive?

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             Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Like I said I am not abusive in any way. Stop mirroring yourself onto me. As I stated earlier, my parents never spanked me, hit me or abused me in any way.
             Both my parents have passed..so keep them out of it...thank you.
             
             By the way..your grabbing and striking with deadly hands has now become swatting.

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                Webmatronposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                You are abusive if you are fond of calling people who are not abusive, abusive.
                
                If I'm wrong, sue me, but I get the feeling you're one of those narcissistic harpies who cries abuse whenever someone disagrees with you.

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                   Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   No I'm a R.N. and I see abuse all the time. By law I am required to report all abuse. Plus I love children..You are the one who gave the impression of yourself..I can only go by what you say.

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                      Webmatronposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      Being a nurse doesn't preclude someone being narcissistic or abusive.  My grandmother was a nurse and beat her kids regularly...as I said before, she was a kind of drill sergeant type.
                      
                      My mom was a teacher.  She didn't hit the kids at school, but she hit me plenty.  She had really bad PMS and really was not herself for a few days of the month.
                      
                      She did eventually figure that out, recovered, and got help about the abusiveness.  That helped me a lot.
                      
                      On the other hand, I have aunts who indulged their kids and they behave well...much like you.  Their lives are perfect and they can do no wrong, and if you dare say that any of their atrociously selfish behavior is wrong, then you're an abusive person and the scum of the earth.
                      
                      Check yourself.
                      
                      You may think you have loving relationships, but from your answers, I can say there's a fair amount of manipulation and psychological intimidation going on.  The penalty that you hang over their heads is rejection and in your husband's case, it's likely being labelled as an abuser if he goes against you.
                      
                      You didn't even answer my question about being smacked on the bum because you know that there are contexts in which a smack on the butt is not abuse.
                      
                      I'm not saying this to shame you, just to open your eyes.  There are more ways to raise an abuser than hitting them, and neglecting to inform them of life on earth, insulating them from truth, and training them to be emotional parasites is a form of abuse.
                      
                      It teaches them a bad lesson about the world, and the truth will fall on them really hard if they lose whatever flimsy, temporal thing they banked their ego on.
                      
                      For you, I suppose it's your looks and your profession that you use to lord over others.
                      
                      Life is a funny thang...you'd better butch up.

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                   Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   Yes? Well I don't abuse my child though. I may put you in your place and you may call it abuse..But like I said, you gave that impression of yourself..not me

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                      Webmatronposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      If you consider a smack on the behind abuse in all cases no matter what, tantamount to a severe beating, then although no state or really even any nurse I've ever met in my lifetime would agree with you, you might have a point.
                      
                      However, if you don't believe that any and all smacks on the behind are abuse, be they on a football field or near an open window, you are aware that your calling me an abuser was, in fact, abusive, and should think about your own place before trying to put someone else in theirs.
                      
                      At best, you're the pot calling the kettle black.

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                         Webmatronposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                         ...and one more thing.
                         
                         My grandmother, feeling guilty about how she treated her first 12 kids, decided that there would be no more hitting, and went too far to be indulgent with the 13th.
                         
                         She died about a month ago from complications from cocaine addiction.
                         
                         The perfect is indeed the enemy of the good.
                         
                         I haven't been the perfect parent, but I think I've done pretty good so far.

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          Springboardposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Calling my cousin a monster would be a bit harsh. But I can assure you he will not be as productive in society, nor as responsible due to the style of parenting his mother employed.
          
          I will NEVER forget one day in a Kohl's store when the kid was 5. He wanted a Brewers rug. His mom told him no a couple of times. He finally looked at her and said, with every bit of seriousness, "You know what happens when I don't get what I want."
          
          He got the rug from his mom. He'd have gotten a good spanking from me, and the reverse statement would have been more correct, "You know what happens when you mouth off."

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             EmpressFelicityposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             That's scary coming from anyone, never mind a five year old.

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                Springboardposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                The point I failed to make in that comment was about something I commented on in an earlier part of the thread...that is, consequences. The kid had none. If there were any, they were non-impacting consequences.
                
                For the record, I'm not advocating spanking as an all-the-time approach. I think that like anything in life, there has to a balance. All methods are necessary to maintain a balance. If your first resort is to spank, regardless of the severity of the incident, that's probably wrong. If it's something that doesn't get done at all, that might be wrong as well.
                
                Diplomacy has its place. So does war. Like someone else suggested, "just take away their privileges," which is effective at times too. In government releations we call those sanctions. Still, sometimes even when you employ diplomacy it doesn't work. Even when you cut off a country's supplies it doesn't work. Sometimes things have to get a little stronger before the other party is aware of the severity of their actions toward the other.
                
                Maybe that's apples and oranges as well. But I don't think so.

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    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    He-he, I love a good catfight
    
    *reaching for a glass of wine*

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       blondepoetposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Can u pass me a salted herring Mish, I'm sitting back too lol.

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          Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Sure hun, here you go

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    Audreveaposted 15 years ago

    I turn my back and you're equating lustful spankings with parental control. lol.
    
    That actually goes back to someone else's point about spankings as discipline being inappropriate b/c it's been sexualised & made a little game for adults. Does sound a bit creepy when you think of it that way.
    
    There are parents who still like a bare canvas for their work.
    
    Can't we just ban it and be done with it? i vote BAN!!

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       Webmatronposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Well, if it is banned then martial arts classes might be the only place kids can legally learn the realities of life.
       
       The way things are going though, they might ban sparring...so the only time anyone will experience physical discipline is the military, and by then it's kinda too late.

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    Hear Mum Roarposted 15 years ago

    Whilst I have respect for the parenting methods of others, as long as they aren't abusing their children, we personally choose not to hit our children or physically strike out at them in any way.
    
    Our children are well-behaved and we still discipline them, but in a non-violent way. I support any ban on smacking or physical violence.

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       Springboardposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I'm not wanting to be argumentative, but I must point out that your statement contradicts itself. If you have respect for the parenting methods of others AND support a spanking ban, you are, in effect, not showing respect for the parenting methods of others that differ from your own.
       
       No government body should EVER step into any aspect of my life so long as it is not causing harm to someone else. Again, I think its important to make the clear distinction between child abuse and discipline. I would go as far as to say if the discipline methods leave a mark, you've probably gone too far and that should be addressed. When I refer to spanking I think of it as that redress I was talking about. You need to be halted in your actions so that you can become, again, rational.
       
       Stop. Think. Listen.

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          Audreveaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Think of all the idiots you've ever met in your life and then consider how many of them are parents. People need guidelines to protect children. Not everyone is responsible and trustworthy to do the right thing. Adults are bigger and stronger and have the capacity to cause harm.

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             Springboardposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Again, I think its important that we make the distinctions. We know bad parenting when we see it. When a child comes into a hospital or checks in with the school nurse with an unusual number of tell-tale bruises, it should be investigated. If a kid gets a whack on the butt for getting sassy, the parent should be applauded.
             
             What you describe as a world would scare me to death. When government start deciding what is right and what is wrong it gets way scary. Hitler had his ideas about right and wrong too. So did Stalin. It's an extremem example, I realize. But fundamentally it's right on. Be careful what you wish for is all I'm saying.

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                Audreveaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Well - it's the rule of law. It protects you (somewhat) from being smacked around by a disgruntled employer who doesn't like how you do your job or from theft, harassment and so on. Everyone would like to be able to do whatever they want, but noone would like the consequence of that as the actions of others affect them.

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    Alessia Amnesiaposted 15 years ago

    I see no one is even interested in my previous reply to this thread about how a child feels after being spanked. Isn't disciplining a child all about the results?

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    Audreveaposted 15 years ago

    One of the reasons it isn't banned already (b/c logically, we've banned it in schools, why haven't they gone the whole way?) is maybe that if we ban it, the implication is then that the parents who smacked were abusers and are then on the wrong side of the law. Noone who smacked with good intentions wants to think of themselves that way.
    
    There are a lot of things which happened historically that noone (almost) thinks is ok now - but were very uncomfortable to transition through as a society.

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    Colebabieposted 15 years ago

    I think Joe Jackson is proof that its not...

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       wsp2469posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Which Joe Jackson?

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          greeneyesH1982posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          cosette?

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             cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             yes.....?

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                greeneyesH1982posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                im just wondering if the name you have is your real name? if it is I never heard it before and I like it

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    Colebabieposted 15 years ago

    It is from les miserables? No?

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       cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       yes, sorry, i hit Submit before reading your comment.

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          greeneyesH1982posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          well I really like it.. your mommma did good by me

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             greeneyesH1982posted 15 years agoin reply to this

             and your welcome

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    cosetteposted 15 years ago

    oh haha...no it is from that book by Victor Hugo. she was a little girl rescued by Jean Valjean, a man who was imprisoned for stealing bread. i should put that in my profile - people ask me that a lot. thanks

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    Audreveaposted 15 years ago

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ebcosette.jpg
    
    There you are. Your parents were tough too I see.

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    shinujohn2008posted 15 years ago

    In some places people who spanked children were arrested , even if they were the parents or teachers

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    Hear Mum Roarposted 15 years ago

    Yeah, it all makes a difference.

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    Webmatronposted 15 years ago

    Post the link.  I'd definitely be interested in reading about it and will link to it from my natural dieting site.  I much prefer a kind of preventive approach to situations that could lead to the last resort.
    
    Looking back, I do wonder if a good bit of the stubbornness in my family stems from nutritional changes that happened around the time my grandma was on her 3rd kid.  My oldest two aunts said they didn't get spanked much at all, but they were also living on a farm way out in the middle of nowhere, and ate very little sugar or any kind of processed food.
    
    When they moved into town and were getting sugar and all sorts of other mass produced stuff is when Grandma supposedly morphed into an insane drill sergeant, but it seemed to be working because my aunts and uncles were wild.
    
    Stuff makes you wonder...
    
    EDIT: I have to get some sleep, but I'll be back to check the thread for the link.

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    prettydarkhorseposted 15 years ago

    oh how bad is the spanking? once twice or how hard is it, the problem with the studies are: are there other conditions existed, like single parent, or those who grew up with how many siblings etc, and so the conclusion of the study has a loophole too

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    dogluver1posted 15 years ago

    Spanking your child is not good! Because then they become afraid of you. They should feel comfortable around you.

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    h.a.borcichposted 15 years ago

    My son has thanked me for being a tough Mom - he is 26 now. He was spanked as a child. We are close and he knows I am and always have been his biggest fan. I don't think he is the exception either. Just my opinion, Holly

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    Audreveaposted 15 years ago

    What I'm hearing is that people equate not spanking with not being tough. You can be a really strict parent who tolerates no backchat, without actually using spanking as a tool.
    
    Pain isn't the only thing kids understand and if you need to take something away, it would be better that it isn't the comfort of knowing that their parents would never harm them in any way.
    
    It might be a bit extreme to label one or two smacks on the bottom as 'harm', but most spanking isn't that - it's generally a bit more of a hiding. There's really no excuse for that. In my opinion it's actually lazy.
    
    Discipline is needed a sense of consequences for actions, but it isn't going to help a child to see a parent roll up his or her sleeves and lay into them.

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       Springboardposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       What I'm hearing is that people equate spanking as child abuse. Beating a child is abuse. Spanking is a form of discipline. I think that any sensible person could clearly distinguish between the two.

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          (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Sensible? If you're late for work, would you prefer your boss bend you over his knee and give you a few swats on the behind in front of everyone to "discipline" you or would you rather he talked about it, instead?

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    Audreveaposted 15 years ago

    I think it hadn't traditionally been seen as abuse. It's been a 'valid' parenting tool for a really long time. I would, as a person in the twenty first century, now see it as abuse b/c there are many other things we can do instead and our attitudes towards kids and parenting and so many things have changed.
    
    Even just the 'couple of smacks' thing is new. You talk to people from a couple of generations ago and it was a full hiding. People used to threaten kids that they wouldn't sit down for a week. And people thought that was entirely normal, appropriate and basically just good parenting.
    
    People have trouble knowing where the line is. Noone has yet been happy to categorically say: this is the line. More than 2 smacks is too much. Or whatever.
    
    You did make the point about leaving a mark being an indicator that it's gone too far - but people can cause serious pain without leaving a bruise. All wife beaters know how to do that. And no - I'm not suggesting every smack is the same as a beating, I'm saying that either way; we can do better.
    
    ETA - some kids bruise really easily, so that criteria could get some fairly innocent parties into trouble. At the end of the day, it really would be easier just to ban it outright.

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    fishtiger58posted 15 years ago

    Hitting a child for any reason is not right. It's abuse. There are many other things that a parent can do to make a child understand what they did was wrong. Taking away the TV and video games seems to me the one thing that hurts them the most. Also taking these things away for a period of time may get them outside to play. Our kids are sitting around to much these days and many of them don't even know how to play outside away from the electronics.

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    wsp2469posted 15 years ago

    Again, I think everyone should hav to say how many kids they have living with them full-time and what their ages are.  I personally am not interested in the voice of inexperience OR the voice of those who have not had kids living with them full-time for a long time.
    I am not sure how much I am interested in the opinions of those who cannot use correct grammar either.  Do we truly want people who are not educated and NOT currently experienced parents telling the rest of us what we should and should not do?  I don't think so.

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       Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Oh please, grammar and parenting are two different things. We all have skills in different areas of life. Some play music, some sing, another uses correct grammar and others are good parents.
       
       Then there are those who are talented in all the above or none at all.

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       Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I checked your words using my grammar logic program and it would like you to correct your spelling and grammar..see below
       
       Common Writing Style:
       
       Again, I think everyone should have to say how many kids they have lived with full-time and what their ages are.  I am not interested in the voice of inexperience OR the voice of those who have not had kids living with them full-time for a long time.
       I am not sure how much I am interested in the opinions of those who cannot use correct grammar either.  Do we truly want people who are not educated and NOT experienced parents telling the rest of us what we should and should not do?  I don't think so.
       
       Academic Writing Style:
       
       Again, I think everyone should have to say how many kids they have lived with full-time and what their ages are.  I am not interested in the voice of inexperience OR the voice of those who have not had kids living with them full-time for a long time.
       I am not sure how much I am interested in the opinions of those who cannot use correct grammar either.  Do we truly want uneducated people who are NOT experienced parents telling the rest of us what we should and should not do?  I don't think so.

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          wsp2469posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I knew I was writing in a specific style.  Since I am not in the world of academia i am speaking in a more common manner.
          My point is still valid.

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             Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             I gave you both Common (as you say you are using) and Academic

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                wsp2469posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Again, I am trying to speak at a more basic level.  Whether a specific software program has the exact same version as I use is not important.  What is important is that inexperienced and/or uneducated people should not tell me or anyone else how to raise their kids.
                That's my point and I'm sticking to it.

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    wsp2469posted 15 years ago

    It's not a matter of talent. it's a matter of intelligence and education.  Intelligence and education is something that influences every second of every aspect of our lives including parental decisions.

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       Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       From the dictionary
       
       Talent
       noun
       a natural talent for dancing flair, aptitude, facility, gift, knack, technique, touch, bent, ability, expertise, capacity, faculty; strength, forte, genius, brilliance; dexterity, skill, artistry.
       
       In other words..educated in one or all

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          wsp2469posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Allow me to clarify.  I am not speaking of talent.  I am speaking to the education and intelligence (or lack thereof)of some of the people in the world today.  i do not need to have ignorant people telling me what to do or NOT to do.
          Only fools follow fools.

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             Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             So, let me clarify something..are you including me in the uneducated category?
             
             I assist in surgery. Can you do that?

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                Diskobolosposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                I guess you are assisting, because you are not able to perform it yourself.

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       Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       My Grammar Logic Program would like you to correct your grammar:
       
       It's not a matter of talent. It's a matter of intelligence and schooling.  Intelligence and schooling are something that influences every second of every aspect of our lives including parental decisions.
       
       Since you connected two items with "And" the word "Are" not "Is" should be used.
       
       The word "education" seems too formal for the rest of your wording.

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          Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          And what is your excuse for using "is" instead of "are"?

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             wsp2469posted 15 years agoin reply to this

             I don't need an excuse.  I am trying to "dumb down" my writing in order to make my point.  I am speaking in a conversational tone or style, if you will.
             Again, my points are valid.  Only fools follow fools.  I am not taking any personal shots or attacking anyone personally.  I am not even nitpicking at anyone specifically unlike you.
             I am just saying that some are more qualified to speak than others.

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                Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Oh OK, you make the statement that people who do not use correct grammar should not tell anyone how to raise their children (although your major and minor premises do not agree) (you know, people can't be good parents and offer great advice because they do not speak correct grammar) Yet you say I'm the one finding fault. Wow..do as I say, not as I do?
                
                Then there are those who use logic.

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                   wsp2469posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   Okay.  The grammar use comment refers to knowledge of usage and not to a choice to NOT use it.
                   You misunderstood OR I was not clear enough.
                   Either way, I have restated my point.  That is what you should focus on not my choice in how to express my point.
                   I know that people who do not have kids are inexperienced.  I know that people who are not capable of using proper grammar and spelling are not well-educated.
                   yes, you are specifically finding fault with ME whereas i am making a statement about ALL people.
                   Perhaps now that I have clarified all of this we can get back to the main point which is: uneducated, inexperienced people should NOT tell me what to do with my kids.

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    Mighty Momposted 15 years ago

    Is this a fight of some sort, and if so, which side should I join ?
    Billy, you need some backup, dude?

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       wsp2469posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       No, MM.  I think I was not being clear enough and because I am trying to speak very simply (as opposed to perfectly and formally the focus is moving away from the actual question in this forum and moving to my specific writing here.
       my point is that any idiot can have kids and that since none of us have to apply for license to be parents that I should not have to listen to some uneducated and/or inexperienced stranger tell me what to do or not to do with my kids.

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    tantrumposted 15 years ago

    Interesting fight!

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    Mighty Momposted 15 years ago

    All kidding aside, this is an interesting topic.
    My thoughts:
    Child rearing theories seem to change by the generation or decade. Parents of my generation were very authoritarian. Punishment was being put over Dad's knee or having to hold out your hand and be smacked.There was an element of psychological torture to the latter because if you flinched you got hit double.
    These days parents have gone to the other side of the pendulum with sparing the rod and spoiling the child.
    Through it all there are and alas, always will be, parents who don't have the self-control not to lash out at their kids -- verbally or physically.
    
    I would love to see parenting classes mandatory for ALL prospective/new parents. Education is much better than laws prohibiting a specific behavior.
    While I am not in favor of corporal punishment (unless the child is about to run in front of a truck -- a quick, unexpected swat on the tush makes clear the seriousness much better than a frantically yelled "NOooooooo!!) I'm NOT in favor of more legislation.
    
    As said above, it will hurt innocent parents and won't affect the real abusers out there...

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    Mighty Momposted 15 years ago

    tantrum -- where do you get these way cool animated thingies?
    
    and where do i get a grammar logic program?
    here i've spent decades learning grammar rules so i can apply them in my writing. who knew there was a computer program that could not only do that for my own writing, but be used to correct other people's writing?

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    Mitch Rappposted 15 years ago

    Mighty Mom said
    'I would love to see parenting classes mandatory for ALL prospective/new parents.
    
    'I'm NOT in favor of more legislation.'
    
    I'm confused.

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    Mighty Momposted 15 years ago

    I agree. I hate it when non-parents try to tell me how to raise my kid. But you know, everyone's got an opinion. And we all know the comparison with a certain stinky bodily orifice.
    
    But by extension, does this mean that we should not have inexperienced or uneducated people writing laws governing parenting? Wouldn't THAT be interesting! LOL

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       wsp2469posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Yes; that is truly all I am saying.
       I was just trying to avoid all the long conversations by basically saying if you're stupid or have no kids then shut the f*ck up.
       I tried to find a nicer way of saying it and got drawn into the previous back-n-4th posts.  I have hubs to write--damn!

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    Mighty Momposted 15 years ago

    Mitch Rapp -- I see your point. I shouldn't have used the word "mandatory." Because who would enforce that people take the parenting classes?
    On the other hand, education itself IS mandated by the government. So maybe it's not such a farfetched idea.

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    Deborah Sextonposted 15 years ago

    There are those parents who like turning their kid over, spanking their little behind... until it's red. Some are even sadistic enough to do it in front of others. These people find pleasure from inflicting pain and humiliation on their children.
    
    This is usually sexual, or it is because they "CAN". It's easier to take their anger out on their children instead of the people they are really angry with.

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    Mighty Momposted 15 years ago

    Maybe I'm the dumb one here, but what part of "If you're stupid or have no kids then shut the f*k up" is so difficult (excuse me, hard -- let's go with a monosyllable) to understand (oops -- i mean "get" or "grasp")???

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    Audreveaposted 15 years ago

    We legislate against all sorts of things. The idea that people have a right to inflict pain on their kids as long as the evidence doesn't show is abhorrent to me. It's also kind of dishonest, because what happens at home stays at home.  They might be less eager for people to know that's what goes on.
    
    You're still not going to be able to catch them at it, but at least it would be a formal ruling that it isn't acceptable. That would be a start.
    
    The education classes are a good idea, but I think most people would think they don't need it / already know how to be good parents.

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    Mighty Momposted 15 years ago

    Very well put, Oregon Wino.
    
    The problem with legislating personal behavior is -- well, there are many. We've all heard and readthe horror stories of CPS failing at their jobs and allowing children to be beaten or starved to death by parents.
    
    But there's a flip side, as well. You haven't lived until you've had your out-of-control teenager stare at you, wild-eyed on drugs, and DARE you (or your husband) to touch him so he can report the "abuse" to CPS. Once that call is made and you're on their radar, it's for you to prove your innocence.

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       OregonWinoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you...or the story of the family in Arizona that had their kids taken from them for having pictures of their two 4 or 5 year old daughters taking a a bath together (no private parts showing in any way, obviously just a "cute" picture.)
       
       Wal MArt turned them in and they had their kids taken from them for a week or so AND the DA staff was telling reporters that they were sexually explicit or something like that...crazy making.

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          Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          That is crazy. We should boycott Walmart for a week and let them know why. They'd lose thousands of our dollars.
          I have a picture of my son in the tub. He is covering his private parts and laughing. He is 3 years old..but don't tell Walmart.

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    wsp2469posted 15 years ago

    I don't think it does any good to make any claims here.  No one can prove anything.  I think it's just a matter of saying YES or NO.
    I say don't try to tell me what to do with my kids . . . especially if you are inexperienced or ignorant.  Isn't it bad enough that ignorant people are allowed to choose the leaders here in our country?
    Yes, it is.

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    Mighty Momposted 15 years ago

    Audrevea -- You raise some excellent and practical points.
    The thing is, parenting is the hardest job in the world.
    The vast majority of damage to kids is not physical. It's psychological and emotional. And, I daresay, is not inflicted intentionally. It doesn't even show up until years later.
    
    My idea about parent education would (in an ideal world) help parents through this very difficult job and navigate the child's development from infancy through 18.
    
    Agree -- most people believe they are good parents. And excellent drivers, too!

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       Audreveaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I absolutely agree with that - and it doesn't all happen in the home, some of the emotional abuse happens at school as well. They say it takes a village to raise a child. There are some nasty, negative teachers out there who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children, let alone having authority over them.
       
       ETA - the spanking (especially if done publicly) I think does constitute psychological harm. It might affect them long-term, it might not. Either way, I see no need to allow it.

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    Mighty Momposted 15 years ago

    Love it! Let's require that people pass an intelligence test to VOTE! Seriously, dude. Let's go write some hubs. L8r. MM

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