"You're out of your cotton picking mind" - Former Trump deputy campaign manager David Bossie to Joel Payne
"This is what's going on on America. This is what we're about. This is outrageous." I agree.
Where's that basket?
Payne said, accusing Trump of using racist rhetoric to rally his base around immigration.
“You’re out of your cotton-picking mind,” Bossie told Payne.
The Bossier changed to your out of your mind.
The only thing he could have done worst is offer him a banana for an apology.
Trump is careful with his words on race. It's his action that are the worst, I have ever seen and sure the non white notice clearly.
Oh my god. Someone said cotton picking? And this was grounds to create a thread?
I guess some of my white relatives having "picked much cotton " should be ..............um, What insulted ? Who could have ever known it was a racist term to fill out your method of making a living ?
It's a saying. I've heard it a lot over the years. Never has anyone considered it racist. Pretty soon,a simple 'hi' will be insulting to pot smokers. 'Morning' a diatribe against late sleepers that cannot be allowed.
What about "Have a good day " Isn't that kind of forward ?
Or , "You look great today " Isn't that sexist ?
Maybe " Come again please " aren't they telling me what to do ?
Those ones are lame like my banana apology.
Many whites got mighty wealthy from in the 1800s, slaves cultivated cotton for sixty years; but free blacks were cotton laborers for nearly a hundred ... cotton picker would render black farm labor useless by the 1950s.
People of all races of pick cotton, but probably not people of all classes.
Because you dont.
I believe wilderness has a theory about that.
No one where I grew up ever made any indication that it was considered racist. It isn't just me. Maybe, thinking it's racist is just you? For the record, our town was fairly equally divided between blacks and whites so I can confidently say it isn't just me, or just white people, or really just southerners, since after reaching adulthood I've lived around the world and with people not southern.
You maybe right.
It was on racist topic and he did apologized, so Bossie recognize it did come off as racist.
It also relates to Trump who most non-whites recognized as Racist. Bossie has not been known to be as bad.
I would accept Bossie apology. Wish the same treatment was given to Rosan Barr and Kathy Griffin apology before harming their careers.
I agree. This is one instance where the left pounced on a molehill and made it into a mountain. The way 'out of your cotton pickin mind' was used was similar to anyone else who has ever said it in this day and age - as a figure of speech. Besides, I'm sure white peeps have picked cotton too, LoL! Hell, its one of my father's favorite sayings (to me or anyone) and he's not even sort of racist.
We all know both sides ramp up this kind of stuff and hype it in ridiculous ways - its just that T-fans can never tell when Fox does it to them. Guess we all gotta learn how to think for ourselves. OMG!
My [white ] sister in law grew up picking cotton in West Texas as a child during the fifties , I sure wish that somebody had told me she was performing "racist "work for a living , I sure never would have let her marry my brother ........
Seriously , What's the matter with you people !
Both of my parents picked cotton here in Kaufman County, Texas when they were children. They did this to help their parents, who were....cotton pickers too.
In fact, there was a huge lot of cotton pickers here. Lots of cotton pickers still living. Sadly, there will be no more cotton pickers, as the land where all the cotton was grown has been developed for expensive residences. I myself helped install wiring, plugs, switches, lights, ceiling fans, etcetera on many of the homes sitting on the land where my parents, and so many others used to pick cotton.
Am I supposed to be offended on behalf of my parents for having once picked cotton? Getting offended on behalf of someone else is pretty tedious. I don't really have the time for it. Seems like it would be best to just grow up.
Please feel free to manufacture more fake outrage on behalf of others. It's extremely annoying, and I believe it helps my cause - the obliteration of the Democratic party.
I don't think you can get to racism based on the use of the term, but it certainly does seem demeaning and could be an example of a larger issue for whoever used the term depending on the context, but that's entirely up for debate. I think it's safe to say you can't draw any conclusion from it. AND, we should be able to have a civil debate about it.
The sad thing, from my perspective, is that it offered the offended person a really good rhetorical device to launch a really good response and they blew it. I mean, in the context of a debate, had the person said something like, "you know, given that you are speaking to an African-American, using the term 'cotton-picking' might be considered demeaning" the debater could have gotten a leg up in the debate.
I generally agree that, if you're really sensitive, being offended is a way to find fault in everything. These days, it's best to have thick skin. People should be allowed to say dumb things and apologize for them and be taken at their word, learn, and move on.
That said, I don't have the experience of being a black person and thus, do not have the experience of being treated like a second-class citizen 24/7.
"People should be allowed to say dumb things and apologize for them and be taken at their word, learn, and move on."
This is exactly what I've been saying. A significant number of people, though, are themselves offended if they are told that what they said or did is racially offensive. Instead of simply apologizing and moving on, they deny that anyone should be offended at what they said. They attempt to place blame on the offended group rather than simply apologizing and moving on. This only causes the debate to rage on and on.
I'm not here to engage in a detailed, mathematical-style parsing of this position. If you want to do so, you'll have to find someone else to engage. I'm leaving for work soon.
Where did I say you need to parse this mathematically?
Your position offends me. Shouldn't you simply apologize and rescind your statements (according to your own position)?
This is what you do. Find someone else to play. I'm not interested.
Words can only be racist if intended as racist by the speaker, not as interpreted by the listener, however far removed from the conversation. This ridiculous need to find fault where none exists is tearing our nation apart.
Just a cotton picking minutes there!
Bossie, I don't think intended to be racist. Just not the right choice of words during their entense racist topic.
From the clip provided, you've made a big stretch. What racist topic? The clip following the pundits was on racism on the left. Is that what you are referring to?
I watch the whole debate it went into Nazis and Trump racism. I don't follow deeply into the herd followers like left or right. I care about the biologic-organism as black DNA is in all human beings, racist puts down all of us.
I don't know Bossie enough, to say he is racist or not. I suspect he was Trump's hitman.
No. It appeared to go into racist rants by Democrats,against Republicans. That is always the last attack, when you have no leg to stand on. Scream racist and hope that hides the fact you had already lost the argument.
I wish to abolished the Federal Government and their overly corrupted two party system. You will be fighting forever and solve nothing, if you herd.
I stand for love and kindness and freedom fly anywhere I want. I don't do arguments that just an over emotional angry discussion, thats inefficient.
I said I don't know if he is racist. Don't know if he is even in the game of nonsense chess.
That's the entire point. This thread was started in a lie. Hoping to sow discord where none should have existed.
If this thread was started on a lie like you falsely claim, why did Bossie apologize for his pathetic racist remark?
"Former Trump Aide Apologizes for Racist Remark on Fox and Friends"
I suppose you think Bozo Trump, his entire weirdo family, Stephen Miller, Sarah Sanders Huckleberry, KKKer David Duke, Sean Hammity, Rush Limpo and little troll Jeff Sessions are not racist either:
It wasn't a racist remark. Someone claimed offense and he politely changed his wording. There is a difference between being considerate and being racist.
I can't believe I'm still conversing on this. No one is stupid enough to believe that was racist.
In reality, it was a pathetic racist remark and that's why Bossie apologized, and if you think you can convince me that the sun up above isn't really the sun, I'm a bit too intelligent and aware to be fooled like that, you'd better save that nonsense for the Trump cultees
As I said before, maybe your right.
It's not enough ground for a thread, unless something bigger happens. Words don't break my bones..
Since you're not the speaker, you're also interpreting. Only, that you seem to have some deep issue with it. I wonder why.
The speaker apologized and admitted it was offensive. The tv show apologized as soon as it happened, even before the speaker.
But anyone. Yeah, you know better.
Out of respect for you I viewed the video again. You are stretching the truth beyond its limit. A man spoke, someone claimed offence and he changed it (with what appeared to be a well deserved eye roll).
The fact that he later apologized does not mean his intent was racist. It means if someone was offended he wanted to rectify the situation. That is what polite people do. I know a lot of people who are offended by nonsensical things. Out of politeness, even though I may disagree, I avoid offending.
Liberals appear to not understand politeness and thus are prone to misread fats.
Liberals? Another blanket statement?
Out of politeness, you know.
I had never heard of this phrase, but it doesn't seem to be racist - even Bugs Bunny uses it to express disapproval: https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/cotton-picking.html
The way I see it there are two possible interpretations:
1) David Bossie is racist enough to call Joel Payne a cotton-picker because he's black on live television, but not racist enough to stand by the statement and so apologizes
2) David Bossie said a common idiom to express disapproval, but the optics of the idiom said to a black person are poor and because of the perceived offense/outrage mob, he apologizes for it
Personally I think it's #2 because this has been a recurring event following the same exact pattern:
-> something is said or done which can be interpreted as offensive
-> outrage mob forms
-> apologies and repentance followed by punishments or redress of the situation
Here are a few examples of that pattern playing out:
- 'Racist' Dove Ad
- 'Racist' Gap Ad
- 'Sexist' T-Shirt
- 'Racist' H&M T-Shirt
Note that in every single case the 'perpetrator' apologized and admitted it was offensive.
It's possible that #1 may be the correct explanation, but I can't see a scenario where David Bossie is smart enough to hide his racism behind a common phrase, but stupid enough to not realize that it'd never work in this hypersensitive environment.
I wonder if Bossie will be attending this upcoming rally in Bozo Trump's back yard in August?:
"Charlottesville rally organizer requests permit for 'white civil rights rally' in Washington:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/20/politics … index.html
My dad, who was born and raised in Arkansas, used to use the term "cotton-pickin" all the time. "Get your cotton-pickin' hands off my [insert treasured item]." He eventually stopped using it, just like he eventually stopped using "pickaninny" and "shuck and jive." Some people evolve; some remain stubbornly entrenched in their view that just because they forgot where the phrase originated, it's no longer racist.
I haven't read through this thread, but have any of you looked at the origin of the phrase? Now, I'm willing to acknowledge that many people have never given a thought to where it came from. But, once you know where it came from, if you are a caring, non-racist person, then you will stop using it. If you continue to use it, even after becoming aware of its origins and that it is still offensive, then you're a racist. Plain and simple.
So you really do not get she was using the term as an example? You're brighter than that, popo!
I should hope so, Randy. You are right, of course - that's called contextualization.
Now notice that PP's definition (and the example she provided) does not take context into account. It only cares about origin and whether it's still considered offensive (by an unknown number of people). "Plain and simple."
By continuing to use it, she fits the bill of her own definition.
OK, so you're nit picking? Analyze that statement....
The definition is "plain and simple," as she herself stated. So I don't think it's a nitpick as there's nothing else to analyze.
But even if there was more to it, there is a point to my "nitpicking." If I can contextualize her intent as non-offensive, then why not extend that ability to other contexts - say, like someone using it as a form of disagreement? Clearly this statement is not exclusively or even primarily racist so it's silly to assume that any use of it is proof that the person is a racist.
"Clearly this statement is not exclusively or even primarily racist...."
Really? See my reply to wilderness .
Here is what I said;
"If you continue to use it, even after becoming aware of its origins and that it is still offensive, then you are racist.
I stand by that. Surely, you can carry on a conversation without using that term. A person who would continue to use the term, knowing its origins and that some people are likely offended by it, is being intentionally derogatory.
Yes, I explicitly pointed out your definition, both the part about its origins and the part about it being offensive. And you used it, so you fit the bill. What part are you disagreeing with? Your emphasis doesn't add anything.
Big difference between "derogatory" and "racist." Are you changing your definition?
I've dealt with you before. You and wilderness both get ridiculously nit-picky about verbiage when the topic is race or racism. It's a defense mechanism. I'm not going to waste my time parsing out every phrase. Either you care about whether you're being racially offensive or you don't. If you don't, that's your choice but don't be surprised if you're then viewed as racist.
If you know where it came from, and are overly concerned with either being very PC or with not giving any opportunity for the people with a chip in the shoulder looking hard for a reason to be offended, to complain that they are offended, then you will stop using it.
I'm not very PC, and I really don't care if racists trying to find offense make it up where it does not exist. That doesn't make me a racist, though - it just means I'm sick and tired of having this group or that decide that any reference to them is meant to be offensive and continually put more and more terminology into the "Dictionary where I can take offense".
So, "cotton picking mind" is a reference to them, eh? Again, which group?
I'll go way out on a limb here and assume that those in this thread that are objecting to the term do so because they feel it could be taken as derogatory to the black race. I've heard the term thousands of times and not once was it used as a derogatory description of blacks - it is very, very difficult to think that anyone would think it WAS meant that way. Still, offense is taken by those of the racist bent of mind looking to denigrate others because of innocent language use.
What's the origin of the phrase 'Cotton-picking'?
It can come as as little surprise that the term 'cotton-picking' originated in the southern states of the USA, where it is usually pronounced cotton-pickin'. It began life in the late 1700s and differs from the 19th century Dixie term, 'cottonpicker', in that the latter was derogatory and racist, whereas 'cotton-picking' referred directly to the difficulty and harshness of gathering the crop. This didn't extend to the specific expression 'keep your cotton-picking hands off of me'. This no doubt alludes to the horny, calloused (and usually black) hands that picked cotton.
Why would you intentionally continue using that phrase when you don't need to?
Did you actually read the content?
"It began life in the late 1700s and DIFFERS from the 19th century Dixie term, 'cottonpicker', in that the latter was derogatory and racist, whereas 'cotton-picking' referred directly to the difficulty and harshness of gathering the crop."
More nit picking. If the group that was originally described using a racist and and derogatory descriptor still finds it to he offensive, why would you choose to continue to use it?
"More nit picking."
This isn't nitpicking, you're just blatantly wrong about its origins (and about what constitutes nitpicking).
"If the group for which the term was originated"
It was not originated for that group. Again, read your source. Not nitpicking, you're blatantly wrong.
"why would you choose to continue to use it?"
You used it several times in this discussion. Why? Surely you could have censored yourself.
So, you're nitpicking that when the term was used in the 1700s it was not racist but when it was used in the south in the 1800s it was racist. Whatever. Its use in the United States was racist and still is if you do it knowing that you are offending a group that was once enslaved for the purpose of picking cotton.
You know why I used it. Or are you pretending to be stupid?
Are you not noticing that there are two different words in question? "Cotton-picking" and "cotton-picker." Since we're talking about the former:
"'cotton-picking' referred directly to the difficulty and harshness of gathering the crop."
It refers to difficulty, not a group of people. Nowhere in your source does it say that it became racist in the 1800s.
Let's pretend I am stupid. You used it for whatever reason (despite having the option to self-censor), and you claim that if you still use it knowing that you are offending a group, you're racist. What proof do you have that your use is not offending someone or a group of people?
You left out this part: "This no doubt alludes to the horny, calloused (and usually black) hands that picked cotton."
Let's take this one step at a time. Why were black people picking cotton in the southern United States in the 19th century?
And you left out this part:
"This didn't extend to the specific expression 'keep your cotton-picking hands off of me'. This no doubt alludes to the horny, calloused (and usually black) hands that picked cotton."
Since this specific expression wasn't used, it's moot. Why bring it up?
Because as slaves, they were forced to.
Yes. 2nd question. Do you believe black people when they say they find the term to be offensive to them personally?
Yes, in fact I think some of them are offended by the mere sight of cotton: https://www.instagram.com/p/BZDM-EfhGiU/
Doesn't mean that they should be, though. I don't want people to be so weak that an idiom or a cotton decoration hurts them in any way.
So, you believe them, who are likely descended from slaves forced to pick cotton, when they express offense at the term "cotton-picking."
Would it be a hardship for you to refrain from using that term to avoid offending persons who are likely descended from slaves forced to pick cotton?
Yes, and when they express offense at cotton itself.
No, I have no problem not using a term that I just learned about today. That's neither here nor there.
So, to be clear, it would not be a hardship for you to refrain from using a term that is offensive to those whose ancestors were likely slaves who were forced to pick cotton.
4th question: If it is not a hardship for you to refrain from using the phrase that you believe is offensive to a group whose ancestors were likely slaves forced to pick cotton, why would you?
It may be just me, but yes, it is a hardship. It became a hardship when every couple of months a new terminology must be invented because someone, somewhere has determined that an innocuous phrase without a hint of racism has suddenly became racist. It almost seems as if they are doing their best to be as difficult as possible to get along with; that they will never accept that any other race is competent to speak with them and will therefore throw up as many roadblocks as possible to prevent such a terrible thing as communication between them and someone of another race.
It is an invented hardship, without foundation, and one I'm tired of tiptoeing around.
I do believe the guy making the remark was from Boston or some other northern area, Pretty. And you know there's a lot of cotton grown up there. Wait for the excuses as to why he would even use the southern term. And here they come!
I'm definitely from the south in cotton country and haven't heard the expression in many years. I've never used it myself, as a matter of fact.
If they are offended at the sight of cotton I have to wonder if they wear only clothing that have no cotton in it.
Panther, See if I can lend a hand? The term "cotton picking" is colloquial. The term was used commonly by everybody in place or a more appropriate expletive, I never thought of it as having racial connotation.
I found the term "pickinniny" as racially charged and offensive, "shuck and jive", less so.
"Black race" is a cryptic, anachronistic term, ethnic group would be more accurate.
Much like Mr. Data is not a "robot" but an artificial life form.
Much like "cotton picking", you can choose to be offended when there was obviously none offered. That you (meaning the black race) continually wants everyone to use a different terminology has gotten to the point that I simply don't care what they want - I will use terminology that offers no offense to reasonable people, that has lots of historical usage and that cannot be mistaken for some other meaning.
"Much like "cotton picking", you can choose to be offended when there was obviously none offered. That you (meaning the black race) continually wants everyone to use a different terminology has gotten to the point that I simply don't care what they want - I will use terminology that offers no offense to reasonable people, that has lots of historical usage and that cannot be mistaken for some other meaning"
It is that straight shooting conservative style? I didn't say that I was offended, but in my experience, the use of certain terms are consistent with those holding certain attitudes and beliefs, and of course it does not matter to you, why should it? Sort of like the guy that tucks a napkin in his shirt collar at a swanky restaurant. I do care what you refer to me as, regardless. The "reasonable people" you referred to may well have been comfortable in 1918 rather than today. America is a melting pot, race as a hard and fast construct does not accurately define people here. Sorry to have offended you. But OK, you can move on....
"That you (meaning the black race) continually wants everyone to use a different terminology has gotten to the point that I simply don't care what they want"
Did you miss the bolded part? I really am tired of having to watch my language because some idiot somewhere has decided that he doesn't like the common terminology that he demanded yesterday and now demands that everyone change their speech to match his new requirements. Or he will take offense at the "obvious racism".
But if you were offended by the "That you" part, I apologize. I did not mean to indicate that you personally were one of those that demand constant change to assuage their overly sensitive ego, and thought I made that clear with the parenthesis. If not, I do apologize for that.
No offense, Wilderness, just making an observation, that is all
Good - I am pleased that there was no offense taken for certainly there was none intended.
Like you, I merely make an observation and offer my personal take on the requirements the past few years to be increasingly PC when the requirements change every little while and when there is no offense being offered or intended.
Well said, Cred! I've had my share of such attitudes down here, as you can imagine.
Randy, do you think that I am being unreasonable or hypersensitive in my last statement?
Is it your contention then that shucks, jive and pickaninny are racist terms, or just outdated words. Because, honestly, jive was a term used in the black community 'jive turkey' was one I heard a lot. Shuck refers to stripping the husk from corn. I had to look up pickaninny. I thought it was some type of chow chow concoction. But that term does seem racist.
If you claim they are all racist, you are stretching as hard as the OP here. If you are claiming they are outdated, I'd agree. Just as cotton picking is dated, but was never racist.
I think I have heard this phrase used as an expression of exasperation ...
Jesus H. Christ!
Do you folks, (the ones that are defending the offensiveness of "cotton-picking" realize what you sound like to folks that aren't on alert for; "trigger words," "code words," "micro-aggressions," or any other reason to be offended"
Normally I qualify my statements with, "I think," or "in my opinion," (because I could be wrong - it happened once before, back in '78), but in this case I am damn sure the correct answer is mrpopo's choice #2.
I don't think it is choice #2, it's not my opinion it is choice #2, it is choice #2 you knuckleheads!
Do you think you are being helpful or "enlightened" when your efforts turn any communication by a white person with a non-white person into a mine field? Why the hell bother risking it if I, (a white person), have to be worried that a most innocuously intended remark will be taken as an offensive racist remark?
Now I have to wonder what "last nerve" is a code word for, because I don't want to offend anybody, but these rationalizations for PC outrage is getting on my last nerve!
Do you think that if a white person, upon being informed by a black person, that a term they just used has racist origins and is offensive simply said, "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know. Now that I know, I will refrain from using it" that the exchange would be over and done with in a matter of seconds?
Yes, I do PrettyPanther, and apparently so did that Bossie fellow - seconds after the other guy responded in a way that let him know he took offense to the remark. He reiterated the "you're out of your mind" part - but without the "cotton-picking" descriptor.
Isn't that the same as what you are saying? Isn't that proof that Bossie did not use the phrase intending to offend? Or is it your contention he just dropped it, (within seconds, and later apologized), because he got 'caught' in his racism?
Do you ever ask yourself why certain people are offended by being asked not to use a term others feel to be offensive, while others simply use different words and carry on without a second thought?
I'm not sure I understand your question PrettyPanther, If you meant to say "...and continue to use those words," I would say the answer is obvious - such people wouldn't care if they were being offensive or not - or, were intending to be offensive.
But your phrasing, "... simply use different words and carry on without a second thought" seems to fit this issue. Bossie immediately dropped the "cotton-picking." Doesn't that imply he didn't intend to offend, caught that he did, and corrected it?
What point am I missing? To help you understand why I don't understand your question - I would not have taken "cotton-picking" to be offensive - at first blush.
I didn't phrase that well at all.
If you were to use a phrase in conversation with another person, and that person told you they found that phrase to be offensive, you could respond this way:
"Oh, I didn't realize that was offensive to you. Now that I know, I won't say it again.
Or, you could respond this way:
"I didn't mean to be offensive. Since I didn't intend to offend you, you have no cause to say that what I said was offensive. I'll continue to say it, because as long as I don't intend to offend, you should not be offended."
I respond the first way. Both me and the offended party move on without a second thought.
Wilderness and popo respond the second way. Conversation goes round and round, never to end.
Why not simply acknowledge that you offended someone, albeit unintentionally, refrain from doing it again (use different words to convey same meaning), and move on?
You're starting to leave the realm of being just "wrong" and beginning to enter the realm of "dishonesty."
As evident from my answers to your questions, I respond the first way. I am more than willing to accommodate people's sensibilities.
What I am not willing to do is tolerate innocent people being aligned as racists and furthering racial discord because of your sensibilities.
So, my last question to you was: If it is not a hardship for you to refrain from using the phrase that you believe is offensive to a group whose ancestors were likely slaves forced to pick cotton, why would you?
Your answer is you would not. That is fine.
5th question: If it is not a hardship for a person (not you) to refrain from using the phrase that is offensive to a group whose ancestors were likely slaves forced to pick cotton, why would they continue to use the phrase?
1) Because they want to offend
2) Because they don't care about whether someone is offended or not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pTbL7GYUuA
3) Because they don't want their language to be policed
Take your pick.
I noticed you left out one possibility: because they are racist and intentionally use a racist term to inflict offense or harm.
It's getting late and I will not be able to continue this tomorrow. My point is that I have noticed that certain people seem to be offended when told they have said or done something racially offensive or insensitive. A person who is not a racist can, at times, say or do something racially insensitive or offensive. That is okay. No one is perfect. However, if you do say or do something racially insensitive or offensive, and it is brought to your attention, and you get all defensive and say that because you didn't intend to be offensive, the offended party should just get over it, well, maybe you are a racist. And if you intentionally continue the offensive behavior, after being told it is racially offensive, then you probably are a racist.
That's under the very first thing I list:
1) Because they want to offend
They may want to offend out of racist reasons, out of malice, or to take the piss out of someone. My list is not exhaustive.
In any case, your bread-trail of questions led us absolutely nowhere. You continue to double-down thinking that this is a racist phrase when it is not according to the source you used. You continue to ignore or misrepresent my position into a boogeyman without once admitting fault. And your standards for what constitutes racism are so poor that you yourself meet them.
You are muscharacterizing my position. This was my opening statement in this thread.
"I'm willing to acknowledge that many people have never given a thought to where it came from. But, once you know where it came from, if you are a caring, non-racist person, then you will stop using it. If you continue to use it, even after becoming aware of its origins and that it is still offensive, then you're a racist. Plain and simple."
I'm willing to change that to "then you might be a racist" to allow for the fact that some folks are just jerks who enjoy offending people.
If you're willing to concede that some people whose ancestors were slaves forced to pick cotton are offended by the use of this term, and you're willing to concede that it isn't a hardship to refrain from using it, then does arguing over whether or not the phraseis racist even matter?
I never said that using the phrase while being unaware of its origins or its offensive nature to those whose ancestors were likely slaves forced to pick cotton is racist. I said continuing to do so after being informed of such means you are racist. I then, in this post, walked that back a bit to allow for those who might do it out of sheer malevolence. Either way, using the term after being made aware of its origins and offensive nature leaves one open to being judged a racist
Please point me to where I mischaracterized your position.
And yes it does matter. For one, if it's not a racist phrase, why should the sensibilities of another person dictate my speech? And second, because of your own definition: "If you continue to use it, even after becoming aware of its ORIGINS and that it is still offensive, then you're a racist."
Its origins are not racist. The only leg you have left to stand on is "it's offensive" - which can be said of anything, by anyone.
Were repeating ourselves. As I said before, you're nitpicking over the origins. You don't think so. I do. Stalemate.
So what's left? If anyone declares anything is offensive, you are forced into silence - whether it's a racist phrase or not is irrelevant.
Hence my other post.
I didn't say that. You made that leap.
No one is forced into silence. You're being overly dramatic. Surely your vocabulary is large enough to accommodate.
In my first post I gave a short list of examples of people's expression being silenced because of offense. That's not something that's remedied by a thesaurus.
An admittedly quick glance shows a list of advertisers who, according to your post, apologized for their offensive ads. How is their "expression being silenced"? It is their choice whether or not to keep or pull their "expression' as you call it, just as it is a consumer's choice to complain or not.
I'm not understanding how they are silenced when their actions are entirely of their own volition? They are still advertising, aren't they? They chose to respond by pulling the offensive ads but they are surely still advertusing with other ads.
Fyi I'm on my break so I might not respond again for a couple of hours.
Because of societal pressure. Their "choice" is between apologizing for offense and retracting their ads/products (which is your approach, at least with words) or be branded racist. Because there are people who think that continuing to display advertisements that are 'offensive' is racism. And racism is not something that any respectable company wants to be associated with. Some choice they have.
If your paradigm is that something that is offensive should be apologized for and retracted (which these companies bought hook, line, and sinker), there is no winning scenario. Expressions with minorities will have to be artificial and sterile as to avoid any sort of offense. The alternative of simply not including minorities in these expressions would also be racist for lack of representation.
Treating every call of offense as legitimate whether or not these things are actually offensive to reasonable people is not a path to healing and harmony, it's a path towards discord.
So, realizing the other person took offense, whether viewed to be legitimate or not - (I lean somewhat in Wilderness' and mrpopo's direction - if you are looking to be offended then that is your problem (generic "you" of course)), dropping the offending word(s) and moving on isn't enough? One must stop and explain an offense wasn't intended and a promise never to do it again is required - before continuing the conversation?
You are really stretching here PrettyPanther. You should let this one go - I think you are off-base on this one because it was someone associated with Trump that is the focus of the issue.
Is it impossible for you to consider that by the man's, (Bossies'), immediate action, (dropping the "cotton-picking), he acknowledged what he thought was just an expression was taken as something else - so he dropped it - and he really isn't a racist?
By those standards I wouldn't want to risk talking to anybody but myself, because then I could be sure that I would know what I meant.
Of course this is rhetorical - but ... I wonder if it had been Van Jones that said it to Mark Levin ....
GA, I never said Bossie was a racist. He apologized. I accept that. I said, if a person knows the phrase is racially offensive and uses it anyway, they are a racust.
"One must stop and explain an offense wasn't intended and a promise never to do it again is required - before continuing the conversation?"
Nothing is required. We can choose how we respond when we become aware we have offended someone. If one chooses to continue the offending behavior, and the stated offense is racially based, then one probably shouldn't be surprised if one is accused of being a racist.
It's not that hard to refrain from using a word or phrase and simply substitute another one.
That mistake is on me then PrettyPanther. When you posted an affirming response to the OP, in a thread titled;Trump's best people, another racist., I think my assumption that you agreed with the OP was a natural one.
Damn, another assumption bites the dust.
"By those standards I wouldn't want to risk talking to anybody but myself, because then I could be sure that I would know what I meant."
Rrally? Do you offend people that often?
Well, you have seen my conversations here. I think it is fair to say they reflect my conversational style in other areas of my life. So you tell me, do I?
No. That is why I'm puzzled by your statement.
Nose to the grindstone PrettyPanther. Don't waste your breaks.
As to your puzzlement ... I wouldn't have taken "cotton-picking" to be offensive - at first thought, so I may have used it in such a discussion as Bossie did too. And I don't even know what other dangerous trigger, or code words or expressions might get me labeled as racist or insensitive.
If I have to worry about policing every word, (beyond common sense courtesy), in a conversation with someone, then I might be inclined to just not have that conversation. Look at the slippery slope of consequences that kind of mindset might incur. Think of the social divisions that attitude might promote.
I'm going to throw this out there. It will be met with derision, but I think it is pertinent, in this case. A guy says something innocuous. Someone claims offense. The guy rephrases. Why?
There is a long held Christian belief that one must be sensitive to the ignorance of others. Yes, you know they are being overly sensitive and missing the greater picture. But, you appease their misinformed nature. Why? Because you know they are wrong and in diffusing conflict you ensure you are not a stumbling block in their growth. For the guy who spoke to simply laugh at the foolishness of the complaint it would allow the 'offended' party to wrap himself more tightly in his ignorance. To retract the verbage gives the other party an opportunity for growth and reflection.
It is sad to see so many here sacrificing their integrity in an attempt to justify outrage.
"To retract the verbage gives the other party an opportunity for growth and reflection."
Does it really? Or does it simply reinforce and add to the chip they're carrying on their shoulder?
Well, it could go either way. Certainly. But, if I am offended and you do not recognize my offense (whether you believed it warranted or not), I doubt I'll have any reason to rethink self righteous indignation. But, the truth is, maybe I don't want to rethink it. Maybe I want to be offended. Maybe, it wouldn't matter how often you stopped to be the bigger person, I'd still ferret out reason to fabricate indignation.
Sooner or later I'd have to question my behavior and come to grips with my problems driving this negative behavior. You would not be a stumbling block on that journey.
I like the sentiment. I just don't like the reality I see as we as a group search for ever more reasons to be offended by innocuous and simple, factual terminology.
Oh, I definitely agree. Every one wants to be the victim. We can't expect it to work on the greater stage. Because people want to be victims, people want to be perceived as defenders, people want to negatively judge. Etc, etc.
But, the benefit of the doubt is important on the greater stage. If we constantly point fingers,without attempting to reasonably see the innocence of the action, then we give weight to the victim mentality. Giving,again, no reason for the person who chooses to search for offense to reflect on the why of their actions.
Edit. That guy on her video made me laugh. I remembered a moment when McCain and Obama stood together. I don't remember what Obama said but McCain feigned insult and injury. It was ignorance amplified. I realized then that McCain was a liar and a manipulator. A poor one. And that was all that man was on the video. Someone taking advantage for personal gain.
"I think we choose our words with purpose. If multiple words mean the same thing, then I think the choice of which word is used also carries a meaning... Then the continued use of it is the same as saying I don't give a shit, (innocent yet?), what you think. And that is a disrespectful arrogance that I might find offensive."
If a word is chosen with malice aforethought, with the intent to offend, then it is disrespectful. Maybe even arrogant.
And if a person makes up new meanings for old words and demands that the rest of the world recognize the new meaning (usually without ever hearing it) and then takes offense when it is used in the older meaning, it is most certainly disrespectful AND arrogant.
Underground nazi weirdos salute Trump: Weirdos my ancestors crushed in Nazi Germany in the 1940's when Mr. Trump's cowardly ancestors were probably hiding under a bed shaking profusely:
Jake , show me onne racist Trump lover and I'll show you twenty Obama racists . Have you forgotten your party's racism coming out of the "tool box" from the first month with the Harvard Professor and the cop and then weekly adding to the false outrages to the point of rioting ?
I have no idea what you're even talking about ahorseback, but I do know nazis adore Mr. Trump and the feeling seems to be mutual: My ancestors crushed these crumbs decades ago and now coward Trump who could care less about the USA, coddles them: UNREAL Betrayal by a worthless traitor:
"White Nationalists Approved for Rally Outside White House to Mark Charlottesville"
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/w … ttesville/
I suppose if underground Nazi weirdos eat Cheetos somehow Cheetos is suspect?
This racist national disgrace impeaches himself with his own incendiary, retarded words: He's a big obese loser who never had any intentions of accomplishing anything good for the American people, and it's obvious his he'll never get anything positive done for the USA with Vladimir Putin in control:
Wow. Such fanaticism. You have a tendency to high jack threads with nonsensical diatribes. Although, to be honest, the thread was opened on a nonsensical claim. Are you and islandbites related?
Maybe you'd like to explain what isn't racist about an idiot like Bozo Trump calling a human being his 'African American":
And just remember, I'm not a brainwashed Trump cultee, never was and never will be so it's impossible for you to convince me that the sun isn't the sun:
Watched the clip. I've never said Trump didn't suffer foot in mouth. Was it racist? Maybe we define racism differently. I see it as an ignorant choice of words that doesn't constitute racism. Unless you can explain how that clip shows Trump discriminated, antagonized or showed prejudice by that comment which clearly displayed he believed one race superior to another.
I'm not saying you can't find a clip that implies racism. It isn't that clip.
Yes, we all know the disturbed orange Bozo in Chief suffers from foot in mouth, paranoia, delusions, hallucinations, constant tizzy fits and severe debilitating anger issues and he slurs his speech like an alcoholic or an individual who has neurological issues, but that's not the disease he exhibited in the film clip, that's called racism and it's just one example of his documented evil:
The notion that Mr. Trump and many of his accomplices in the white house including Stephen Miller, con man Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnel are not racist is absurd:
"Racism and Donald Trump: a common thread throughout his career and life"
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 … r-and-life
Are you projecting in that ditsy first paragraph?
Either way, irrational hatred does not facilitate an environment for meaningful dialogue. I'll leave you to your issues.
Trump's facist plan is working, he actually convinced many of his fans he is not racist. At least Hitler was more open and honest enough about his racism.
To spite the over whelming evidence that Trump is racist. I must admit Trump is the world champion of liars, I have ever seen on worldwide stage. Being in the arts and entertainment business all my life, Trump is simply is the best at Ugly show business.
And people like you wouldn't recognize Racism if it bit them !
Just cause I'm colorblind from this world traveling. Been called a reverse racist, that makes no sense. I listen closely to what non white people think and say because I deal more with them in my personal life.
I am a bio -organism first mix with some bacteria. I never made love to a monkey, yet feel we evolved from monkeys love millions of years ago. If there was an Adam and Eve they must have been black. Black DNA is the only race within everyone DNA on earth's. So why the racism in the first place?. This will drive KKK and Trump sooool MADD!!!!!.
Last I heard, science is currently working under the theory that the first humans appeared in several pockets worldwide. The out of Africa assumption is losing its universal acceptance.
My specialty is North an South America natural history museum displays. The earliest Maya settlements date to around 1800 B.C., or the beginning of what is called the Preclassic or Formative Period. ... Anything earlier than 15,000 years ago is too vague for me to include as sound evidence in the Americas. Still migration from Africa makes most sense so far.
Always open for better theories.
Castlepaloma , Your party's race shaming issue seems to lie deeply within your psyches and last I knew from DNA studies , most of us have varying degree's of African DNA within us . LTL just state the latest known facts about the original peoples of the world . If you want to wrongly call Trump a racist that means more than likely that you are engaging in racism and that is just as racist as you accuse Trump of isn't it !
Belong to no party or label. Just a maverick of a strong individual.
Normally I would say pointing one finger at someone is pointing 3 fingers back at yourself. Never seen so much finger pointing and blaming than Trump my whole life.
Since my entire background or family has no evidence of being racist. Most of my deepest friends and realationships are non whites it makes no sense to say I am racist. To hear most people call Trump a racist is obviously evidence enough for me.
You do realize that in the current climate to be white is tantamount to being racist? If your picture is indicative of your true image you are pretty much damned already.
People are damned when they never truely confront every serious problem that comes into their path. I try for redeeming my white forefathers fault or mistake state in a rescue so they do not continue regreting what white will do in the future.
Many of German youth have done an excellent job at asking forgiveness for what their forefathers Nazis party did to the world. Today they have progressively move forward. Where American could learn alot from them, rather than keep chocking or repeating their ugly Violence pass.
People continually make mistakes. It is part of being human. One should not ask forgiveness for the mistakes of others. One should learn from them in order not to repeat them. If you have to take responsibility for your own life and the collective past, you will eventually rebel against it. Why? Because that path is unending and not forward thinking.
Do you hold the Turks responsible for the Armenian genocide almost 100 years ago? Do you hold the government of South Africa responsible for the oppression of the Boer today? What of Islam several hundred years ago, or their treatment of women and gays today? The Rwandan genocide. What of Russia starving out the Ukraine? Seriously. Mankind is a less than compassionate race. Across the board.
Apologize for the actions of others, if you so choose. But that solves nothing. It reinforces the perception of racial and ethnic differences. The better course is to acknowledge we are all human beings capable of good or bad. We should resolve to the good of the future.
I just keep reminding America that we are repeating the same mistakes. I gotten to the point I won't include me into we and avoid it mostly by moving to Columbia.
It's kinda like a divorce with an extremely difficult Ex. Alot of my family are trapped in the US, at least I want some of them to come along to a safer and healthier place.
No one is trapped here. If you felt trapped moving was the right choice. Most people here enjoy their freedoms, respect the freedoms of their neighbors and aren't looking for a colder climate.
Can't fool me , things have been getting progressively worst since Kennedy. Most are just comfortable numb and have the freedom of what colors of jellybean they choose from.
Try burning your passport when the dollars collapse or they steal from your pension for unstoppable national debt. They will instantly reprint your slave paper passport. Yet the US cash will be worthless as toliet paper.
Columbia, is hot, hot hot. With cool sea and mountains.
You said Canada. You can't pretend that Columbia and British Columbia have similar climates, or that Columbia is part of Canada.
Correction misspellings Colombia. Did live too long in British Columbia, I confused them sometimes.
Misspelling,or not. Colombia is not part of Canada. Sheesh.
I've spoken alot about Colombia South America, thought you already knew.
I've spoken a lot about a lot of things but, in this conversation you suggested everyone move to Canada, not somewhere in South America, or anywhere else except Canada.
Actually it's quite telling about ALL of those who threatened to leave America if Trump were elected ? I believe that says far , far more about the mindsets of liberals than any other act known to us so far . Did they actually believe like a small petulant child that someone was actually listening who could have said " OH , okay my child , here is the candy you've been whining about all day but I really wished you eaten your peas "
FLASH Headlines , Trump Victory Cancelled - Too many people leaving America ?
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