The Never Changing Bernie Sanders

1. 83

   GA Andersonposted 4 years ago

   One point that it seems most people agree on is that Bernie Sanders has stayed true to his message throughout his career.
   
   One comment even included a reference to that history as a reason for their support of Sanders' policies;
   
   "When we're talking about Sanders, I'm confident to stand on the foundation built with boulders over the past 40 years.'
   
   So when I stumbled across this video I thought it would fit into the discussion of his historical perspectives that influence his 'Democratic Socialism' views.
   
   
   
   
   *The video is from Reason.com and has an obvious negative slant, but that does not make the facts it includes false or misrepresented.
   
   GA

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   1. 82

      Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      GA,
      
      I consider this irrelevant. He never proposed the radical "Communism" the Right is so anxious to paint him with in this campaign.
      
      The Communist thing is always the boogie man for the Right. It is the tiresome bromide dredged up every time the Capitalists or the "Man" believe that their prerogatives are being threatened.
      
      We heard the rallying cry against King and the Civil Rights movements and I have heard it against the very principles of organized labor and I have heard it referred to in opposition to any kind of liberal or progressive thinking. I am reminded of Joe McCarthy.
      
      I, just like Bernie, resent American backed strongmen and dictators. In the case of Nicaragua, I did not cheer for the Sandinistas, but was the tyrant that was overthrown in Nicaragua under the auspices of Ronald Reagan, your hero, really any better?
      
      American corporate exploitation was running rampent in the Caribbean and Central America during much of the 20th century. And when anyone dare stand up to it, they were Communist. You can take the American imperialism argument back to Columbia and Panama just after the turn of the last century, even before this "Communist bugaboo".
      
      Because I am concerned with how far Bernie goes with his ideas and their palatability in American society, I prefer Warren. But the Right is against any challenge to oligarchs and corporate power and, unfortunately that would include the corporate Democrats who are vying for the nomination.
      So we just as well go for the "full Monty".
      
      If I am going to err and not get Liz as my preferred choice, I am going to err in Sanders' direction rather than in the other direction where for certain I know that I will find nothing but an open sewer.
      
      In New York in 1959, Castro came to New York City and was given a parade when he visited Harlem. The Establishment questioned why Castro was seen in heroic terms in this community. The reason is that the view of the Establishment and that of Black Harlem residents were going to be different. We saw that "Establishment" in the same adversarial way that Castro did, and we still do.

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      1. 83

         GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         It appears you would support him because you don't like the way things are and want change.
         
         It also appears you are willing to ignore the historical proof of the failure of the fountainhead of his policy position because, either 1) he is not really as radical as his history of comments and actions say he is, or 2) "yeah but all those other failed countries didn't do it right, and Bernie will."
         
         Even relatively recent modern history is showing the results of Bernie's "Democratic Socialism." As shown in the video, the much-touted Scandinavian countries are scaling back their "freebie" socialistic programs because they are becoming unaffordable and are damaging their countries.
         
         So, past history shows the failure, modern history shows the failure, and current times are showing the failure. Yet, you will gamble on such a record because you want change and you don't think Bernie is as radical as the proof of his history shows him to be.
         
         Hopefully, you noted that I didn't bring any "Communist" charges. My problems are with the scope of his ideas, not any particular label.
         
         As a side note, but relative to my point; I juist heard the news that the University of South Carolina will now offer free tuition to students with household incomes of less than $80k.
         
         I think this is great. It is an experiment in the arena of Sanders' free education platform, but with major differences; it is a voluntary effort, it is financed by the entity making the effort—not everyone else, and its continuation, or termination, will be judged by the market, not a government mandate that denies that opportunity to the ones footing the bill.
         
         My moderate way; let stakeholders give it a try and evaluate the results.
         
         Sanders' radical way: Do it. Everyone will pay for it and it will work because my logic says it will work.
         
         I am trying to resist the thought, but Bernie supporters are starting to look, (to me), like the mirror-image of what Democrats say about Trump supporters; history shows the proof, you see the proof, but the truth is denied because you want change.
         
         GA

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         1. 82

            Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            GA, yes, but America today and the situation in Scandinavian countries still have a quite a gulf. No one is talking about going there, it is just Capitalist/Oligarchs are not open to ANY change and that is unacceptable.
            
            We have had many "radical programs" over the last century, The New Deal" and Medicare from the "Great Society" is just a couple. Sanders does not get to rule by fiat but has to have his ideas sifted by Congress and by the very nature of this Society they will be watered down in compromise. But, at least I have somebody willing to pull in the proper direction rather than stand still or pull in the opposite direction.
            
            I did note that you did avoid the Communist label, but the video referred to it more than once.
            
            Isn't the U of SC a state school, who pays for the subsidy provided the poorer students? Is it not the tax payers of South Carolina?
            
            It is not that I am not open to your moderate approach in this case, it is just that no other candidate outside of Warren and Sanders would even consider it. So, it has to come down to all or nothing.
            
            It is only conservatives that are making a big deal over the desire of progressives to rein in the power of the oligarchs in this society. After all, why would they not want to give up structural advantages, unrig the system or play on a level playing field if they can avoid it?
            
            It is tragic that those that do not fall in the oligarch category have been mesmerized into believing that they really have a stake in the current system.

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            Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            I think Cred did a good job at a rebuttal for this video, so I'll spare you most of mine, GA. Criticizing Scandinavian countries for having to scale back social safety nets could easily be reversed and moderate approaches to problems (The Affordable Care Act, for example) could be criticized for being insufficient remedies. And that same argument could be made to compare centrists to Trumpers (for ignoring failures, denying the truth, but supporting a centrist candidate nonetheless).
            
            I'll let John Oliver close on Medicare for a little humor amid all the seriousness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z2XRg3dy9k

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   2. 82

      gmwilliamsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Aware people know that Bernie is an.....OUTRIGHT communist.  He espouses such principles.  Bernie is on the fringe of Democrats.  The Democratic isn't about to let Bernie win for that would be THE END of the Democrat Party.

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   3. 84

      Sharlee01posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Very interesting video may have been tweaked to offer a negative slant, as you stated. However, one could almost lipstick his statements, they have changed very little throughout the years. He certainly has stayed true to his ideology. I can't find it in me to enter the conversation, I am a pure capitalist, and will sit this one out. But I did enjoy the video.

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2. 78

   hard sunposted 4 years ago

   Interesting discussion. Is America now at a crossroads? Do we have to choose between becoming at least vastly more socialist, continuing down the road of, as Credence puts it, "American corporate exploitation" which really seems to be an oligarchy, or a Trumpian monarchy? I think all three are serious possibilities at this point.
   
   Given a choice, I'll sign on the socialist line. I'm not enthusiastic about any of them though. Any "ism" is only as good as the people running them. The people running them are a reflection of the people in that nation. I'm not confident enough that Americans can produce ANY system that is not over run by corruption at this point. We need to work on our collective morality IMO before we can begin to heal our economic system that works all too well for a handful of people and not so well for a lot of others.

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      PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      This! It seems a vast number of people in this country have forsaken their values. What happened  to integrity, compassion, and respect for  knowledge and truth?

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         hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         I really don't know what happened. I can't say it enough though that we need leaders who are good role models now more than ever. We don't need perfect people but people who are willing to admit their mistakes, learn from them, and move on. Vastly unlike that guy in DC now. Decent morals are not that complicated. I know I don't need to tell you this though, PrettyPanther.
         
         I do think part of the problem is the Internet. For one, particularly those who are uneducated in the traditional sense, don't understand the least about what a reasonably valid source is, and they don't know how to process information they see that involves scientific studies. Then we have the Internet's ability to bring out the worst due to having conversations with strangers that are not face to face. It's good that kids these days are getting some schooling on these things as they specifically pertain to the Internet.
         
         It's definitely not an easy question and the Internet isn't the only thing to blame here.

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3. 61

   Live to Learnposted 4 years ago

   It's easy to be drawn to the socialistic ideals Bernie espouses. We all have compassion and, if all the things we want could be accomplished we'd ensure everyone had everything.
   
   I just don't see his views as realistic. We don't have the money to do it any of it. Much less all of it.
   
   I can't support Bernie,  no matter how much I like him. I think anyone who supports him is placing us all in danger.

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      Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      "I think anyone who supports him is placing us all in danger."
      
      Many of us felt the same way about Trump, and we were correct.

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         Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         Lol. That is another figment of your imagination.

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         1. 82

            Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Live to Learn,
            
            I guess it is a figment of my imagination as well of that of all those (more than a few) who want to see him deposed this fall.

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            1. 61

               Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               I can certainly understand the perspective of 'i don't like the man and I want him out'. I would have been the same had Hillary won. But the outcome of my vote against someone was a booming economy, vastly raised wages and a brighter economic future. I feel as if I made out.
               
               As I've stated. Candidates don't understand that a vote against someone isn't a vote for something. I won't vote for a socialist agenda. And if Bernie wins he will see that as his mandate.
               
               If we give the government the power over the chickens in our pots because we think they can provide them more efficiently, pretty soon we won't have any chickens. Or pots.

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                  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I understand and appreciate your perspective, I just don't share it. My problems with Trump go beyond the fact that I don't like him.

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                     Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     Yeh. I get that. Would have been the same with me had queen wannabe Hillary won.

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                  2. 94

                     wildernessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     The point is that the danger you perceive has resulted in nothing but good for the country and the people, just as LtL points out.
                     
                     Given that, it does appear that it is but a figment of your imagination.

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                        PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        Nothing but good for the country? Do you honestly believe that?

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                           wildernessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                           Well, let's see.  Lots more people working.  Wages are climbing.  Illegal border crossings are down.  Stock market, including my IRA is up.  New trade agreements, leveling the field, are in place and being worked on.  Businesses expanding and opening. 
                           
                           About all that's left is the incessent claims from liberals that Trump is evil, a criminal, mentally ill and destroying the country.  Like I say, a perception that is not agreeing with the reality we're seeing.

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                           1. 61

                              Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                              More jobs, better trade agreements and wages climbing?
                              
                              That's a liberal's nightmare!

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                                 wildernessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                                 Dangerous.  It's dangerous in the extreme...for liberal policies that will not match it.

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                              PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                              Amazing. I wonder how your perspective will hold up over time?
                              
                              Actually, I have a pretty good idea.

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                                 wildernessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                                 So do I.  It will last until the liberals take control of the country again and begin tearing down what he has built for us.

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                                    PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                                    I haven't seen Trump build a thing except corruption and incompetence. Not even that wall he promised Mexico would fund.

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                                       Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                                       It usually falls to the left to clean up the mess left by the previous Republican administration, re Dubya and his dad.

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                                          PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                                          Yes, this is one of those truths that he will not see so I didn't bother.

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                                       hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                                       I saw some of it falling down on a Mexican town. I wonder how much that cost the US?

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                        Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        I guess that's okay wilderness you have your opinion but I guess I've got mine too so we'll just have to see who does better this coming fall

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                  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Plus some of us see the reality that the economy is still not working well for the many Americans and that job growth has SLOWED since Trump took office. https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones … 0b79a57847

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            Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Are your worries about Bernie yours?

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4. 0

   PrettyPantherposted 4 years ago

   Bernie's policies will be tempered by Congress. What is important is that he will genuinely fight for working people, unlike the fake populist liar enriching himself and his family at taxpayer expense. He will also genuinely fight corruption rather than embrace it like the current crook in the White House.

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   1. 78

      hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Once again, I cannot agree more with this. There's no way he'd push all his agenda through Congress. However, his message and presence, could help temper the corruption and get us moving back in a progressive pattern, even if it doesn't end with the vision Bernie has. After all, if we don't progress we regress....like we are doing now.

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5. 76

   Valeantposted 4 years ago

   

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   1. 61

      Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      That's a good one.

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      Sharlee01posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      But it appears he has developed a taste to travel by private jets. At one point he was apposed to such travel.
      
      https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news … -last-year

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      1. 61

         Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         It is a good meme. Lighten up. It's humour.

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            Sharlee01posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, it is all in fun. However, with Bernie's grandiose agenda that $334 million in savings would be appreciated. It really is funny...

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               Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               And imagine how much we'll save by not having to build a wall along the border....

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                  Sharlee01posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Know that is funny...  And yes we would save lots of money, we could then give that free health care to anyone that decides to walk across the border. It makes good sense to me, and to most of the candidates that hope to run against Trump.  I mean I believe when that question was asked in the first debate they all raised their hand. Of course, they were making campaign promises, which we all take with a grain of salt. Good one Randy.

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                     Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     According to your hero Trump, Mexico is preventing any new immigrants from reaching the border. If so, then we don't need a wall. Unless of course, you think he's lying?

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                        wildernessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        Or perhaps Mexico is not allowing those wannabe border crossers near the border because there is a new wall preventing crossing, meaning they will build tent cities in Mexico instead.
                        
                        It helps, Randy, to back up and look at the whole picture rather than bashing at the President again.

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                           Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                           Didn't you see the report a few weeks ago where the makers of rebar ladders were having a boom in sales? The border guards are finding them abandoned all along the border after they've been used to scale the Trump Memorial Wall.

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                     2. 84

                        Sharlee01posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        I live in Mexico every winter, I am actually in Puerto Vallarta now. I see the daily news, as well as publications. Mexico is stopping people from entering Mexico illegally, using the army as well as the national guard. They are f cooperating with America to stop the caravans. So, I would at this point agree with you. As long as Mexico does not let people from other countries illegally cross into their country to head for America, we will have less of a problem. The Mexican people do not like people coming into their country illegally any more than we do.
                        
                        But I am sure after Trump leaves in four more years we can go back to the usual flow of immigrants that come in illegally. And maybe even provide them with that free health care the Dems are promising. One never knows.
                        
                        
                        Right now I am enjoying a Mexican winter. Hey, if the USA gets too crazy, I might just become an illegal here n Mexico, and stay on the fun side of the wall.
                        
                        
                        
                        BERNIE SITING --- Martini at Fuego Grill PV Mexico

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                           Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                           Mail me a taco, Shar! 

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                              PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                              A taco? Tequila would travel better. Lol

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                                 Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                                 I have tequila. 

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                              Sharlee01posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                              I wish I could... We could all use a taco or two, with a bit of Tequila...

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         PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         True. Unfortunately, remaining competitive in a presidential race often requires compromise.

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         1. 83

            GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            OMG! You said the 'C-Word!'
            
            Some might say, "From your lips to God's ears."
            
            GA

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