No More Statues -- So What...

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  1. Sharlee01 profile image84
    Sharlee01posted 13 months ago

    https://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/15089630.jpg
    It is apparent many statuses are being torn down or removed due to the demands of some that find them unacceptable for one reason or another. I actually have no problem with taking down statues. I mean they are just stone and bronze sculptures. To be honest, I find the urgency to remove these statues another very transparent ploy by the Democrat-run States and cities to appease protesters, and perhaps pull in some black votes in November. It's a classic "let's make blacks stand up and take notice we are willing to solve systemic racism".  Let's tear down those statues...

    So, what do all of these statues being removed do for the cause of BLM.? I simply ask has the removal of these statues worked to improve the lives of black people? Will it work to ensure better treatment by Law enforcement, ensure black children a better education or perhaps better and more jobs for black people, lower taxes?

    I just wonder will this latest Demacrstic ploy ensure them the black vote in November?  Perhaps some might wake up to this kind of deceptive ploy, and realize at the end of all this,  they end up yes with no statues, but nothing else of any consequence.

    In fact, to some white people, the removal of the statues will only work to deepen the racial divide. So, in the end, what are black people left with, what will be gained?

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

      What will be gained?  Further division of our country, increased racial hatred, an adrenaline rush for those doing the dirty work and, long term, forgetting our sordid past.  Germany has kept the concentration camps, even requiring school age children to visit them, while we do our best to erase what happened. 

      Who is on the right track?  Hint: it isn't those that wish to erase or change the history books.  It isn't those that try to hide what we did wrong in our past, and it certainly isn't those that simply wish a surge of adrenaline (the majority, IMO), of those on the current "tear down and burn anything we can find" kick.

      1. Sharlee01 profile image84
        Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

        Bold reply... I totally agree with all you have stated. So, pleased to see you offer your opinion unfiltered. Refreshing to my ears.

        I believe our history is what made America great, we learned from our mistakes and built a sturdy foundation. A foundation that is not dependent on statues, but ideals, values, and hard work.  It would be optimal to keep our history intact, statues, and all. But removing statues will not change most feelings about America or the American way of life.

        Those that want to tear down leave nothing but ruins. This kind of destruction will never be accepted by most American's.

        These fools forget when American's get their backs up they will fight for what they believe is right. Just as they did to abolish slavery
        . Some forget  Abraham Lincoln was the first Republican president. A common-sense Republican with conservative values. Yet,  I see many of these protesters want his statues taken down with all the rest.

        This is not about BLM or systematic racism, it's about tearing down our Government, and all it stands for.  The blacks once again are being used as shields... Perhaps even knowingly, it would seem too obvious not to realize this.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

          Lincoln; the president that took a bullet in his head for freeing slaves.  So we'll tear down his statue!  "( 

          Insanity at it's best.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image84
            Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Yes, it is insanity. But it is another election period time for the Dems to roll out the playbook. So very predictable.

        2. Credence2 profile image81
          Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

          Sharlee,

          By the standards of the time, Lincoln was radical in his proposal to eliminate slavery and not acquiesce to it like everyone of his predecessors did. Maintaining the status quo is doctrinaire conservative, changing it is liberal. Lincoln, hardly a pea brain like our current occupant, had the confidence to surround himself with diverse viewpoints, even conferring with Frederic Douglass, former slave, regarding affairs relating to Blacks, totally unheard of prior to this time.

          In every instance where rights were to be conferred to a group on the outside, conservatives resisted. Woman's suffrage was just one case in point. The resistance was termed in "States Rights", or "we don't want our way of lives changed by the government".

          We are going to push for the needed reforms and if conservatives want to call that tearing down the Government, so be it. I will get on board that these changes need to be expressed peacefully, but they will be expressed.

          Why is it that whites and conservatives always assume that we are victims of outside agitators,? In the Sixties, the conservatives were saying that the Civil Rights movement was Communist inspired. Why is it that the insistence of equal rights under the law is always referred to as Marxist?

          We as a group cheer the attention this all is getting and how it erodes support for conservatives and their policies across the country, contributing to making Trump's reelection doubtful. And you know what, it is all our idea.

          I will leave you with this most appropriate paragraph:

          "If Trump is serious about promoting national unity, he would do well to ask himself the same question people did on those dark nights in D.C. after a president’s assassination – “What would Lincoln do?” He would learn that Lincoln was a serious student of history. He studied the Constitution and law closely. He surrounded himself with advisers of diverse perspectives. He prioritized humility over arrogance and empathy over revenge. As Trump considers delivering messages of unity to the country on its birthday, he would do well to heed the lessons – and memories – of Abraham Lincoln."

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

            "Why is it that whites and conservatives always assume that we are victims of outside agitators,?"

            Because we assume basic intelligence in our own neighbors?  We assume they are smart enough to understand that burning a store out won't convince people to get rid of police protection?  Because we figure people can figure out that refusing to address the thousands of inner city deaths won't be fixed by disarming police? 

            Because conservatives (won't get into the racism end) understand that most people are good, that the rioters are a small percentage and that violence is seldom the objective of the vast majority of protesters?

            1. Credence2 profile image81
              Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

              If you understand that most of us recognize that only a small percentage of peaceful protesters are rioters and destructive, we are in agreement. So, it is not only conservatives that understand that.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                If only a small percentage of protesters are rioters and destructive, doesn't that mean the rioters are "outside agitators"?  That WAS the question...

                But, more and more, I do believe that the percentage of those "rioters" is rising.  When we find protest routes pre-set up with pallets of bricks/rocks/weapons, well, somebody is doing it and it isn't just a few people nor is it a few folk spontaneously deciding to loot an open store.  Don't you find it both sad and suspicious that those thousands of protesters don't seem to look at those pallets of bricks in the street and immediately vacate the area?  That instead they begin to shout at police to stand down?
                Don't you find it sad that they don't police their own demonstration - that they don't even call the cops or turn in videos of rioters?

              2. Sharlee01 profile image84
                Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                Have you ever thought about how those few agitators hijacked the BLM agenda, as I mentioned BLM was a shield for these agitators? The very problems they were trying to point out were sidelined by violence and 22 deaths that have occurred all but two were black men.

                This is what will be remembered, nothing about much-needed changes in regard to racism. I an few weeks all this will be forgotten. Will anyone remember those 22 citizens that we killed? The media hardly made mention of their deaths...   So we have some black people dead, and several statues removed. Do you really think this is the way to be heard?

                You appear to feel these protest will work to bring you some of the changes your desire. I have labeled BLM a shield for other's agendas. Please read the Demands CHOP made on the behalf of BLM. And really consider these demands, are they what you feel will help black people? And note you will read one after another that just deal with non-sensical demands. And then as an afterthought, they add number 19, the very last demand

                19. " We demand that the funding previously used for Seattle Police be redirected into A) Socialized Health and Medicine for the City of Seattle. B) Free public housing, because housing is a right, not a privilege. C) Public education, to decrease the average class size in city schools and increase teacher salary. D) Naturalization services for immigrants to the United States living here undocumented. (We demand they be called “undocumented” because no person is illegal.) E) General community development. Parks, etc."

                Are these demands that will make things better for blacks or just more --- "You are poor, we can see fit at giving you somethings you need to survive but...  let me borrow a verse from a: Billie Holiday" song -- "You can help yourself, but don't take to much..."

                The Dem's have tossed crumbs and some political promises. How has that worked out so far?

                CHOPS Demands
                https://medium.com/@seattleblmanon3/the … aee51d3e47

          2. Sharlee01 profile image84
            Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            "Why is it that whites and conservatives always assume that we are victims of outside agitators,? "

            Well, this is an easy question. If you watch any of the reasons videos on the many protests, one sees few blacks in the crowds. These protesters represent your cause. The trouble makers used BLM as a shield to promote their own agenda's. Actually the crowds that have been tearing down statues are white. 

            As I said nothing has been accomplished for BLM other than a bit of defunding in a few police departments in Liberal states. Yes, they have ripped some statues down, and how did that ultimately help your cause?

      2. Credence2 profile image81
        Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

        Those camps are not revered nor placed in a station of honor, are they?

        You erase what happened as a start by removing heroes of the Confederacy from the public square.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

          "You erase what happened as a start by removing heroes of the Confederacy from the public square."

          Just so.  You erase the past by removing reference to it, by removing it from attention, by removing it from our memories.  That's what I said, too.

    2. Credence2 profile image81
      Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

      If you have problem with the removal of certain statues then the fact that protestors lean this way should be of no consequence. I certainly don't want my tax dollars supporting the maintenance of the likenesses of insurrectionists and traitors. Move them to a museum.

      Mr. Floyd's untimely demise was a catalyst for the impetus to more intense examination of the American pandemic, that has been in hiding for so long.

      After Trump and his race baiting style, the Democrats do not need to offer Blacks a great deal more encouragement to support the party.

      Why should the removal of statues add to a racial divide that in reality is already here? What do we have to lose, if attention to these issues are brought to a forefront, if even for just a season?

      Of course, more substantive reforms will be needed and with the right candidates perhaps some of these reforms may in fact may be possible. They certainly have not been Republicans.

      1. Sharlee01 profile image84
        Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

        "I certainly don't want my tax dollars supporting the maintenance of the likenesses of insurrectionists and traitors. Move them to a museum"

        I greatly disrespect Barack Obama, I was so disappointed with him as a president. I actually feel he has the blood of 500,000 Syrian men, women, and children on his hands. I do not feel a library should have his name on it. This is my truth, as you have shared yours. I am very sure many would share my opinion as many share yours. Obama has a place in history, a history I am ashamed of. Taking the name off his library would not in any respect help me feel differently about the man.

        In reality, President Trump has provide some positive changes that affect Black American's, I need not list them it would be repetitive on my part.

        You ask how the removal of statues will add to the racial divide.  Perhaps you should realize some have a different opinion in regards to these statues, feeling they are part of America's history. Some like myself feel the removals of statues seem almost ridiculous, a way to appease, without any intentions to hear the plight you have spoke of.

        You do realize nothing has really changed but for a few cuts to police departments? And ultimately this will hurt black people more than help them. There is nothing more than a few Liberal states offering appeasement. Ask yourself, has anyone spoke about offering better education for black children, or better housing, better job opportunities, prison reform? Oh, That was Trump.

        Yes, more substantive reforms would be needed, and they won't come by voting in once again a Dem that makes plenty of promises but knows the minute the words leave their lips. that he does in no terms mean to keep those promises., While we are discussing history, let's consider the questions, what has the Democratic Party ever done for black people?

        When children return to school this fall all children will have a school of choice.

        ""A child’s ZIP code in America should never determine their future, and that’s what was happening," he continued. "All children deserve equal opportunity because we are all made equal by God." President Trump

        The Trump administration has long advocated for school choice, arguing it would allow residents in lower-income communities the opportunity to send their children to higher-caliber schools than those offered by their district.

        It's sad to see once again during an election period that the Dem Party is up to their old tricks. I have never been able to figure out how or why Black people fall for such ploys.

        1. Credence2 profile image81
          Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

          Some explanation why the GOP have trouble obtaining Black support relative to the Democrats.

          Those on the Right cling to their guns or are fervent about restricting abortion, they are clear about their allegiance to the Republicans. Do we not have the same luxury?

          https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/13/gop-fac … lping.html

          1. Sharlee01 profile image84
            Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Maybe you should take another look at the republican that is our president. It is clear he is like no other president and can say things that no one wants to hear. But his deeds speak louder. He has taken it upon himself to work on problems that have pledged black people for decades. You are just not willing to really except Trump in any respect. This is sad because he has worked to make things better for everyone. 

            Father of CHOP shooting victim speaks out in emotional 'Hannity' interview: 'All I know is my son is dead' !"

            "They need to come talk to me and somebody needs to come tell me something, because I still don't know nothing," an emotional Anderson told host Sean Hannity. "Somebody needs to come to my house and knock on my door and tell me something. I don't know nothing. All I know is my son got killed up there.

            "They say, 'He's just a 19-year-old.'" No, that's Horace Lorenzo Anderson [Jr.]. That's my son, and I loved him."

            "Somebody needs to come to my house and knock on my door and tell me something."
            https://www.foxnews.com/media/horace-lo … ing-victim

            Do the Democrats really care about making things better or just your vote?

            1. Credence2 profile image81
              Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

              Well, Sharlee, we liked Obama, but you obviously did not. We have a different perspective on who has been the most effective and most responsible for the economic recovery. His slander of Obama still reverberates  through the Black community and it is taken as a slight toward us all. In my opinion he hasn't earned the adulation and praise you think we should shower on him, such as with your attitude toward Obama.

              Let's face it, Right and Left are as fire and water and the two will never mix.

              I think that BLM's objectives are appropriate. It is unfortunate that violence through rioting and property destruction has come into the mix. I can blame much of the violence on right wing agitators trying to discredit the movement or common criminals who are indifferent to it.

              But despite all of this, disbanding police is a bad idea even though I insist on many needed reforms within their ranks.

              1. Sharlee01 profile image84
                Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                I think the protest will bring about some police reform, it is well needed. I don't think BLM concentrates enough on other problems that could use being brought to the forefront. I think education, housing, good jobs are very important, and if I were to be very honest this is where Blacks have a real grip.

                Not sure it was all rightwing agitators. Here in Detroit there ANTIFA arrested, as well as Washington DC. They just yesterday the FBI arrested Jason Charter that is associated with ANTIA.  So, was there a mix of agitators, most likely. Agitators right and left have agendas. The protests gave them the opportunity to use BLM as a venue to show their hate for America.

                I truly feel Trump will work on race problems. I think he listens, as he did when he commuted the life sentence of Alice Johnson, 63, who was convicted for a first-time, nonviolent. According to her lawyer Shawn Holley, the warden supported her release. Johnson's was one of the 16,776 petitions filed in the Obama administration's 2014 clemency project. In 2016, she wrote an op-ed for CNN asking for forgiveness and a second chance. Her application was denied just before Obama left office.

  2. FatFreddysCat profile image96
    FatFreddysCatposted 13 months ago

    https://wisdom.yoga/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Pigeons-on-statue.jpg

    If they tear down all the statues, what are the pigeons going to poop on? Has anyone thought about the pigeons? Of course not.

    Humans are so selfish. Only when we are up to our necks in an ocean of pigeon poop, will we realize the error of our ways.

    1. Sharlee01 profile image84
      Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

      Good one... Surprised the liberal did not think of that. Perhaps they will want to put the statues back. LOL

  3. Live to Learn profile image78
    Live to Learnposted 13 months ago

    I'm sick of people thinking their proclaimed sensibilities trump everyone else's. I'm sick of people thinking violence is preferable to rational debate. I'm tired of people thinking they have the right to circumvent a vote on changes.

    I am sick of children throwing tantrums.

    I'm with you though. I could care less about the statues. If reasonable dialogue resulted in a consensus of a majority that aligned with current law I'd be more than supportive of whatever the outcome.

    1. Sharlee01 profile image84
      Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

      I am with you. My level of tolerance is zero. I can not even fathom how messed up those on the left have become. I would venture to say this wide wonderful divide is set in stone. And I am actually feeling quite good about that.

      I am in no respect feeling there is any ground to come together with these nut jobs. In no respect would I want to be associated with the lefts nonsensical agenda, and the methods they use to try to shove their agenda down other's throats.

  4. Nathanville profile image94
    Nathanvilleposted 12 months ago

    As an outsider (from across the pond), in reading the intro and comments it’s striking how politically and culturally polarised this issue is in the USA; Republicans vs Democrats, Whites vs Blacks!

    The whole saga of pulling down statues as part of the BLM protests started in Bristol (where I live) on the 7th June, when Bristolians pulled down the statute of Edward Colston (slave trader) and dumped it in the docks.  Then within 24 hours the craze spread across the UK, and within 48 hours, across the USA.

    Notwithstanding the fact that Bristol is a strong Labour Party (Socialist Party) area e.g. Local Government is Labour with an elected ‘black’ Labour Mayor, and all 4 MPs (Members of Parliament) are Labour (in safe Labour seats); the issues in Bristol isn’t so much political, or wowing to black voters, but more of a ‘social’ issue (sense of decency/morality) shared by Bristolians as a whole.

    An opinion poll taken of Bristolians shortly after the statue was toppled:-

    •    61% of Bristolians said the protesters were right to pull down the statue.

    •    56% of Bristolians feel that throwing the statue in the water was the right thing to do.

    •    60% of Bristolians feel that it was not right that Bristol had the statue in the first place, because of Colston's links to the slave trade.

    •    57% of Bristolians feel that they did not think those responsible for toppling the statue should face criminal charges.

    Also, only 3% of people living in England are black (2.8% in Bristol), so in the UK the vast bulk of BLM protestors are whites.

    Since the toppling of the Edward Colston statue the Local Government have retrieved it from the docks and placed it in a Bristol museum, where it belongs e.g. where the ‘full story’ can be told.

    UPDATE
    •    On the 15th July (in the early hours of the morning) a BLM statue was discretely erected, without permission, on the plinth where the slave trader’s statue had stood. 

    •    The Bristol Mayor (black & Socialist) had the BLM statue taken down the following day and removed to the local museum where it now stands waiting for the artist to decide on whether he is either going to collect it or donate it to the museum.

    Edward Colston statue replaced with sculpture of Black Lives Matter protester
    https://youtu.be/cAzPCjCsuOs

    Bristol Council removes BLM sculpture that replaced toppled Edward Colston statue https://youtu.be/d9p6c4i1b7M

    1. Sharlee01 profile image84
      Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

      IT is very apparent that the BLM agenda to make things better is a poor one. They have many societal problems that won't be solved by removing statues. In the end, they will find the statues gone. The white people will have had their day of glory, I story to tell their Grandchildren...

      But in the end, they return back to their lives, their suburban homes. The blacks will be left just as they were found, with growing systemic problems. Statues are the very least of the problems that make life hard for black citizens. It is such a dilemma.

      1. Nathanville profile image94
        Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Only in the USA!  As I said in my opening sentence “it’s striking how politically and culturally polarised this issue is in the USA; Republicans vs Democrats, Whites vs Blacks!”

        Your reply seems to support the impression we get from across the pond that ‘White Americans are prejudice’:  Perhaps if white Americans were not so prejudice, then perhaps there wouldn’t be such a division in American Society between black and white!

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          You are equating reality with prejudice, saying that when one speaks of fact and reality they are prejudiced.  They are not the same.

          1. Nathanville profile image94
            Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            My apologies, I am aware that America has ghettos (which we don’t have in Europe); but it’s not so much what is said, as the way it’s said (American Grammar!) that to a European like me makes some of the comments sound like ‘prejudice’ e.g. giving an impression of a ‘us’ and ‘them’ attitude!  Whereas, as a European I take the attitude that we are all human, and that it’s our problem.

            Going off at a slight tangent, as I said, we don’t have ghettos, but from early Victorian era until the 1940’s slums was a chronic problem in Britain, which no Liberal or Conservative Government could or would resolve; until those homes were destroyed by Hitler (2 million homes destroyed in the wartime blitz). 

            Also, during the 1980’s Yuppies (young upwardly-mobile professional) took to buying cheap homes in the run-down parts of cities across Britain, doing up the properties and moving in, which raised the value of properties in those areas; to the benefit of the less well-off living in those streets. 

            Margaret Thatcher (British Prime Minister) further homogenised Britain by introducing new laws that allows ‘Council House Tenants’ (Social Housing) to buy the homes (they rent from the Local Government) at large discounted prices e.g. the market value of the Council House less all the rent previously paid to the Local Government.  The knock on effect being the break-up of working class housing estates as large numbers of ex-social housing are sold on to middle-class families (like myself)  looking to buy good homes at a bargain price.

        2. Sharlee01 profile image84
          Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

          You have misunderstood my comment. I should have been more precise.  I was pointing out my opinion on the futility of the protests.

          The very reality is that black people in America have many obstacles and serious social problems that have plagued them for decades. Police brutality is certainly one problem but they have many much more serious...    I was being honest when stating many white people that attend these protests go home to their suburban homes, and leave the mess in the neighborhoods they protested in.  The black communities are left with a mess and no real progress with the longstanding problems.

          There is no doubt racism exists in America, but over many years we have made progress. And yes, it has never been so apparent the right vs the left, and the division is very deep at this point.

          1. Credence2 profile image81
            Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            Protests, as long as they are peaceful, are never futile as it keeps the society taking notice and on edge. As long as the cauldron continues to be stirred, no one can rest.

            But there is always the possibility that many other whites may have been affected by the reality of a world that they never seen nor understood and could prove political allies in this cause. We have had support for this movement and the outrage surrounding the murder of the Black citizen from multiple angles.

            And while we have made progress, Sherlee, it is obvious that we need to make a lot more.

            1. Sharlee01 profile image84
              Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

              IT is very obvious more progress is needed.  It would seem at this point burning down liberal cities is only doing damage, and pointing out to many that lawlessness is not the place to start solving problems.

              It actually works to confirm something far more sinister. Something most Americans will not in any respect except for America. Day by day it is becoming more and more obvious. The agenda you are supporting has been hijacked by radicals. Your agenda has been buried due to all the violent riots. Have you noted the who's doing the rioting now? White thugs... One only needs to watch a few videos on daily Portland, and Seattle riots. You see no more poor blacks looting businesses. Now you see white thugs with their faces well covered with clubs and bricks destroying Fed Buildings. This is not about police brutality, this is about destroying anything that represents our Government. They could care less about systemic racism.

              1. Credence2 profile image81
                Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                You may have a point, Sharlee. As I look around, I will take a stand concerning anarchists hijacking the movement and discrediting it with destruction and violence.

                I support the principles regarding BLM, not those using the movement to advocate another agenda, that we both would not support.

                Most astute of you to recognize and sound the alarm regarding this.

                1. Sharlee01 profile image84
                  Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  I really believe the majority of Americans can realisticly see and have realized Black people are targeted by some law enforcement officers, and treated with brutality.

                  When the protest started after Mr. Floyd's death it appeared some progress might be made, and I really think many politicians have been made to realize it is time to step up and really work on police reform. I don't think many citizens would not hope to have sensible reform to stop police brutality. 

                  I think we have lost sight of many problems that we needed to work, and have added a very horrific problem that threatens our freedoms, a freedom we all black and white have cherished. 

                  I would hope at some point more will recognize we may be at a dangerous threshold.

          2. Nathanville profile image94
            Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            I don’t know that the protests have been futile.  The protests have made a point, and I am sure some ‘good’ will come from them e.g. the effect it’s had on Bristol and other cities around Britain.

            I know many people (in discussions) shy away from violent protests, and protests being hijacked by fringe elements are never desirable.  With regards to the latter the main protestors should and do renounce the fringe elements (the extreme groups) and distance themselves from such undesirable groups; but just because you always get extremists is no reason to stop campaigning for a good cause.

            As regards violent protests - Initially, Campaigners will start with ‘peaceful’ protests because that’s the way to gain maximum public support; but sometimes, ‘civil disobedience’ and ‘violent protests’ is the only way.  Prime examples being:-

            •    The Suffragettes who gain the vote for women in the early 20th century.

            •    The Irish civil war of the 1920’s that won southern Ireland ‘Independence’ from British Rule, and

            •    The Poll Tax Riots (and civil disobedience) in Britain in 1990 that led to the resignation of the British Prime Minister (Margaret Thatcher) and the abolition of the poll tax in 1991 (just two years after its introduction) e.g. about 30% of the British people refused to pay the poll tax (civil disobedience).

            London Poll Tax Riots of 1990: https://youtu.be/IeFS6S06w8c

            1. Sharlee01 profile image84
              Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

              Well, time will tell if the protests this summer will help obtain a decrease in police brutality. Law enforcement reforms are being worked on.  The peaceful protesters were impressive in numbers, I would assume their voices were heard.

              The rest of it, the ANTIFA violence will not go unnoticed by voters. Especially at this point, we are counting up the deaths/injuries and nightly getting a look at the damage being done. Makes one wonder why the Democratic city leaders took the gamble on this bunch of thugs. They are sustaining billions I damage, and a President that will refuse to give aid to rebuild. So, hopefully the citizens that are standing behind ripping down billion-dollar federal buildings can add some cash to their taxes, and pay for cleaning the damage that they occurred over ripping down Federal buildings.

              If they proceed to spread their agenda they will be met with the military in Republican cutie, we just won't tolerate violence. Our representatives will ask for Federal help. Republicans are very satisfied with living under our Constitution, and not up for socialism as the Democrats aspire too.

              1. Nathanville profile image94
                Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Police brutality and prejudices is all too common in many parts of the world, and difficult to police justly because all too often it’s the police who police the police; although in the USA the problem is especially systemic e.g. a 1,000 Americans killed each year by the police.   

                However, although I wouldn’t expect great changes quickly, I’m sure some good will come from the peaceful BLM protests; it’s a start e.g. “from little acorns…”, “Rome wasn’t built in a day” etc.

                As regards ANTIFA, I can’t comment on it because it’s an American thing, and something I don’t know enough about to be able to engage in debates.  However, from what I’ve read about ANTIFA on Wikipedia I would suspect that the issues are complex, with pros and cons, and (like any other struggle that results to violence) it would be difficult to guess what the final outcome might be. 

                I’m making the above comments, while thinking of the IRA (Irish Republican Army).   I know that ANITFA isn’t a terrorist organisation, unlike the IRA (albeit some would view the IRA as ‘freedom fighters’), but it’s through the decades of violence by the IRA that through Sinn Féin (the political wing of the IRA) the IRA are now one step closer to their goal e.g. the reunification of Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, and being free from British Rule.

                The point I’m making is that to be successful in campaigning for a good cause, public support is essential; and getting public support (public sympathy) is easier when campaigns are peaceful.  However, without the threat of violence, peaceful campaigns can all too often just be ignored by the ‘establishment’, and hollow threats can be just as ineffective; so there are times when campaigns needs violence to get the establishment to listen.

                1. Sharlee01 profile image84
                  Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  Protesting can accomplish change there is no question there.  The problem with the present protest is that they have been hijacked. BLM had hoped to accomplish law enforcement reform that would result in decreasing police brutality.

                  The violent protesters have made their agenda very clear by concentration on destroying Federal property. The state's own governments have the power to change laws that would bring about law enforcement reform.  We have several states that are being governed by Democrats. At this point, they could care less about their citizens. They care about an election and far-left votes. These politicians have ordered their police to stand down and let the protesters destroy any and all Federal property. They are bot making any progress offering any real form of law enforcement reform. This is going unnoted by many in the public. The left-leaning media do not report the riots or bring up the facts these Dem representatives that run the problem cities have ordered police to step aside, and have not offered any law enforcement reform. They work to muddle already muddled minds. They report that peaceful protesters are being "gases and beat down". The fact is we have peaceful protesters during the day and anarchists at night. The media take footage from the day and night protesters and miss represent what is really going on during the day. During the day there is no violence, at night there is. BLM message is lost in the shuffle. Hate and violence are what keeps people tuning in. The left media pushes the storyline peaceful protesters are being attacked. The right shows raw footage of what is truly going on.

                  Anyone with a clear mind can weed through the rhetoric, and see what is going on.

                  These far-left groups are working to overmind our present Government with the blessing of their appointed leaders, the Governor, and Mayors.

                  Not sure what the majority of the citizens are thinking in the affected cities. It appears they are on board with the agenda.

                  I am never on board with violence. The BLM cause has been well lost due to the anarchists, and this is a shame because in the beginning it very much looked like all were taking notice for the right reasons.   I would venture to say the majority of American's have become shocked and disgusted with the riots, and the media that promote this crisis to suit a political agenda. Hopefully, some good will come out of all of this.

                  1. Nathanville profile image94
                    Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    To put it into perspective:-

                    As your politics are ‘staunch’ right-wing I wouldn't expect you to agree with the media reporting on American left leaning media (like CNN), and I would expect you to lap up everything broadcasted on far right-wing media like Fox News.

                    Being a European, I’m not in a position to comment on (or have a view on) what effect the disruptive night-time protests are having on the peaceful daytime BLM protests in the USA;  being mindful of your political views, I can only take your word for it as to what the situation is in the USA.

                    Albeit, the only point I would question is your political assertion that the Democrats discouraging police intervention of the far-left violent groups is politically motivated e.g. putting votes before people (as you infer).  From my perspective, although it’s a fine line, too much police intervention can be construed as being very ‘authoritarian’ e.g. a ‘Police State’; something which ‘extreme’ Governments (left & right) e.g. communism and fascism, all too often favour as a ‘brutal’ tool to supress ‘opposition’.

                    From bitter experience in the UK, violent protesters can be better managed with a more of a ‘hands-off’ approach by the police, rather than confrontation by the police e.g. violence begets violence.

                    For example, in the Bristol riots of 2011 (England) the police were very restrained, considering (as demonstrated in the video below); not to have been so would only have heightened the violence e.g. to have used ‘brute force’ (like you would advocate) would have made the situation worse:   

                    Bristol Riots 2011:  https://youtu.be/aqaYVMqLzm4

                    Notwithstanding the above, the BLM cause has at least had a positive effect in the UK, for example:-

                    •    Local Governments in Britain are listening to public opinion and re-evaluating how they represent black issues e.g. whether particular statues are appropriate etc.

                    •    A number of high profile Companies, including Lloyds of London, have made public apologies for their tainted historic links to the trade slave, and intend to make amends with future Company Policies.

  5. Santi Salinas profile image84
    Santi Salinasposted 12 months ago

    I do agree that the removal of statues for the Democrats is a way to gain more votes, especially from the black and brown voters, but we must also recognize that removing these statues are a way to progress into racial justice. These Confederate soldiers are traitors to the US because they fought against DC and the US Constitution all because they did not want to free their slaves. So what do black people gain from this? They will gain justice for those who have died from racism in America. #BLM

  6. GA Anderson profile image91
    GA Andersonposted 12 months ago

    Perhaps the timing of events can give you a hint. It is in the daylight hours that we are seeing the "peaceful" protests and the relevant police response actions. But it is the after-dark hours that we see the rioting and appropriate law enforcement activities.

    It seems to me that it would be easy for the BLM protesters to limit their protests to daylight hours and condemn the after-dark "protesters" as anarchists not associated with their cause. But I haven't seen this. The day-time protesters and the night-time anarchists are all lumped into one body.

    I say that if you want public support for a good cause, then denounce and distance yourself from the bad actors usurping your cause.

    In my view, the BLM protesters haven't done this, so now they have to own the violence the anarchists have added to their cause.

    When you watch the news coverage, it isn't the day-time protests that get tear-gassed, it is the night-time anarchists rioters.

    This shouldn't be hard to understand, but the media presentations don't offer that thought. The Left media highlights the night-time actions as being against "peaceful" protesters and the Right media highlights the nigh-time anarchists as being the day-time protesters.

    We are being lied to by both sides. But, the bottom line is that the BLM movement has been complicit in the hijacking of its message. And by such inaction, they deserve the results.

    GA

    1. Nathanville profile image94
      Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      Thanks for your perspective GA.  From across the pond we are getting more of a balanced view in our news media of the protests in America; but then again, what’s happing in the USA isn’t our fight, we are just spectators looking on.

  7. Kathryn L Hill profile image80
    Kathryn L Hillposted 12 months ago

    Statues are Art! They are the product of artistry in carving/sculpting, in detail, in production.
    If any of these destroyers knew how much work goes into creating a statue, they would surely think better of it.

    Sadly, they do not. How easy it for them to destroy these works of beauty and history. How easy it is to light them on fire and tear them down with no guilt
    or doubt that it is wrong!!!
    And the history they are creating?
    Hopefully, they will look back and say,
    "Gosh, I was an awful, self-righteous brat."

    What could any of these destroyers sculpt?
    A lump ... not even beautiful enough to be called a rock.

    1. Nathanville profile image94
      Nathanvilleposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      Really?

      It’s not the statues; it’s what they stand for that is ‘offensive’.

      In answer to your question “What could any of these destroyers sculpt?”  In Bristol, England these destroyers sculpted a statue of a BLM protestor to replace the statue of the ‘slave trader’ that they ripped down.

      Statue of ‘Slave Trader’ Edward Colston in Bristol, England, was toppled by BLM protestors, and then a little over a week later unofficially replaced with a statute of a Black Lives Matter protester. 

      The second statute (of a BLM Protestor), which is also art, was removed by the Local Government within 24 hours; because it was erected without Local Government Permission!

      But neither statues were destroyed - Both the first statute (of a Slave Trader) and the second statute (of a BLM Protestor) now stand in a Bristol museum; where their ‘full’ story (history) can be told.

      Statue of slaver Edward Colston unofficially replaced with sculpture of Black Lives Matter protester: https://youtu.be/AUKnnFv0XbE

    2. Don Bobbitt profile image94
      Don Bobbittposted 12 months ago

      I have enjoyed this discussion between what seem to be intelligent people.
      I wonder though; might any of you want to run for political office? On this subject, being able to do this simple thing; discuss and not argue, is a rare thing, and I feel we need someone willing to replace our existing weak-knee'd politicians?
      DON

      1. Credence2 profile image81
        Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Kudos, Don, I fancy a little debate with morning coffee.

     
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